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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2005 4:05:18 PM
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Mattumanu
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Does Jesus direct command not to believe someone when they say, "He is there", not count for anything?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2005 4:30:11 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 118
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mattumanu
Does Jesus direct command not to believe someone when they say, "He is there", not count for anything?
Which verse is that? I think we should all look at it in context.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2005 4:37:43 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1780
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ToolmanUF
When Christians in these ancient communities pray to Mary and the other saints, they always do so knowing that these saints in heaven will bring the prayers to God and that he will answer the prayers.
The real problem with this doctrine and practice is that it literally makes God a liar. God -- the LORD God Almighty -- invites us to come DIRECTLY to Him. Christ -- the Savior and Mediator of all mankind -- invites us to come DIRECTLY to Him. I could quote numerous Scriptures, but why don't you investigate for yourself?
So those who try and approach God indirectly are actually saying to God "I don't believe you. I believe that I must approach you through some intermediaries which you did not authorize, but which appear to be getting the job done. Thank you St. Jude. Thank you Mary". An honest appraisal of this unscriptural practice can only lead to this conclusion.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2005 4:50:29 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 118
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quote:
The real problem with this doctrine and practice is that it literally makes God a liar. God -- the LORD God Almighty -- invites us to come DIRECTLY to Him. Christ -- the Savior and Mediator of all mankind -- invites us to come DIRECTLY to Him. I could quote numerous Scriptures, but why don't you investigate for yourself?
So those who try and approach God indirectly are actually saying to God "I don't believe you. I believe that I must approach you through some intermediaries which you did not authorize, but which appear to be getting the job done. Thank you St. Jude. Thank you Mary". An honest appraisal of this unscriptural practice can only lead to this conclusion.
Ezra,
You simply don't get the point. The Catholic and Orthodox Churches do not teach that we can't approach God directly. If you somehow think that they teach this, show me where. Never do these ancient, apostolic churches try to prevent people from coming to God. They encouage it, and the majority of their great liturgies and prayers involve the Christian humbly seeking the power and graces that only God provides.
While I can't speak with certainty of the Orthodox Church (although I assume they do teach this), the Catholic Church clearly teaches that Jesus Christ is the only mediator between God and man. He is the only person who can bring intercession with the Father and offer salvation to all. However, Jesus doesn't stop us from "interceding"with each other. For example, if you ask a friend to pray for you he will. He prays to Jesus on your behalf, he "intercedes" for you. A diagram would look like this:
You --> Friend (prays for you) --> Jesus
Catholics and Orthodox beleive the same thing. When they ask Mary to pray for them (or a saint) it looks like this:
Catholic --> Mary (prays for them) --> Jesus
It's simply the same thing that Protestants teach, and just because we ask others to pray for us in no way discourages us from praying directly to Jesus. The powers that we have to pray and "intercede" for each other (be we here or in heaven) receive all the mediation from the one mediator, the Lord Jesus.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2005 5:05:43 PM
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Mattumanu
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Mt 24:23 At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do not believe it.
Mt 24:24 For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible.
Mt 24:25 See, I have told you ahead of time.
Mt 24:26 “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it.
Lk 17:22 Then he said to his disciples, “The time is coming when you will long to see one of the days of the Son of Man, but you will not see it.
Lk 17:23 Men will tell you, ‘There he is!’ or ‘Here he is!’ Do not go running off after them.
These are imperatives. "Do not"... Jesus said, "I am going away, but it's good that I go" because he sits at the right hand of power while the third person of the trinity, the Holy Spirit, is active in this world.
Stephen looked up into heaven and saw Jesus standing at the right hand of God...
Ac 7:55 But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked up to heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God.
Ac 7:56 “Look,” he said, “I see heaven open and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God.”
Even at Saul's conversion, Only Jesus' voice is heard.
Ac 9:3 As he neared Damascus on his journey, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him.
Ac 9:4 He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, “Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?”
Ac 9:5 “Who are you, Lord?” Saul asked.
“I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting,” he replied.
Ac 9:6 “Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”
Ac 9:7 The men traveling with Saul stood there speechless; they heard the sound but did not see anyone.
Read also, in Hebrews, of Christ's work as mediator of the new covenant. Where does his perform his priestly duties? While walking around on earth? Or in the heavenly Temple?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2005 5:17:07 PM
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Mattumanu
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I'm not posting this to argue the point about praying to the saints, but rather to show how the word of God should norm our lives. Many accounts of the "saints" include them "seeing" apparitions or full embodiments of Jesus or Mary... But scripture teaches to be wary of this kind of thing. We know that the book of Matthew was designed as both a narrative of Jesus' life and a compendium of His teachings, so this gospel is especially concerned with this kind of thing.
Also, before any more Catholics feel picked on, we evangelicals are just as critical of others who claim to have seen Jesus (Benny Hinn, anyone? Oral Roberts saw a fifty foot Jesus once too, if memory serves).
_____________________________
Radical Grace Radio
Tear Down the High Places
I'm a converted pagan operating amongst a nation of apostate puritans ~ C. S. Lewis
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2005 5:22:29 PM
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captainfraulein
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quote:
ORIGINAL: onelordofall
Happy reading. If you decide you'd like to discuss the Communion of Saints further, I'll be around sooner or later.
God bless you,
Michael
I'll pm you. Just wanted to know how personally you believe since I believe you are RCC.
Thx. Appreciate it.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2005 5:23:00 PM
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ToolmanUF
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Well, from my quick reading of those scriptures, it seems like Jesus was talking about a particualr time period. In fact, I beleive that Protestants use these verses to talk about the end times.
Also, the Catholic Church fully admits that we must be very skeptical about appearances of Jesus, Mary, or the saints. That is why it only gives the faithful the approval to believe in such apparitions after the issue has been throroughly investigating by the apostolic college.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2005 8:28:40 PM
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onelordofall
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Dear Mattumanu,
quote:
Does Jesus direct command not to believe someone when they say, "He is there", not count for anything?
That's the "crazy" thing about canonized Catholic Saints...they never did say "He is there." In fact, the majority went to great lengths to keep their experiences hidden while they were in the flesh. It is only after their earthly demise that those who knew them while they were on this earth testify to their sanctity. Every Saint excelled in humility, first and foremost, just like Christ.
I suppose that leaves out the Benny Hinns of the world and the majority of people calling the media because they "see" the Blessed Virgin in their toast. Please. There is no comparison. Look into the lives of the Saints, read what they wrote, and you will soon realize there is a huge difference between true Saints and the likes of Benny Hinn.
Hope this helps.
Pax,
Michael
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2005 8:44:21 PM
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ToolmanUF
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Excellent response! Truly led by the Spirit.
Indeed, many Catholic saints had to face horrible social consequences because of their proximity to the Lord. St. Bernadette, the woman to whom the Blessed Virgin revealed that she is the Immaculate Conception, faced a lot of resistence and lived a very humble life, never asking to be praised. But now, her grotto at Lourdes is one of the most famous examples of God's mercy and healing power.
Many other examples of people abound who were touched by visions of the Lord or his Mother, and the true believers have consistantly shown humilty. These saints point to God, not to themselves.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2005 9:09:45 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mattumanu
Does Jesus direct command not to believe someone when they say, "He is there", not count for anything?
Dear Mattumanu,
Only when someone is trying to pass of some sort of secret Second Coming. Context, my friend. Jesus also said where two are three are gathered together, there He is in the midst of them. Was He lying?
On the Feast of St. Olav Haraldson
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2005 9:46:24 PM
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Lodrone
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quote:
The real problem with this doctrine and practice is that it literally makes God a liar. God -- the LORD God Almighty -- invites us to come DIRECTLY to Him. Christ -- the Savior and Mediator of all mankind -- invites us to come DIRECTLY to Him. I could quote numerous Scriptures, but why don't you investigate for yourself?
Remember Job.
JOB 33:21 His flesh wastes away to nothing, and his bones, once hidden, now stick out. JOB 33:22 His soul draws near to the pit, and his life to the messengers of death. JOB 33:23 "Yet if there is an angel on his side as a mediator, one out of a thousand, to tell a man what is right for him, JOB 33:24 to be gracious to him and say, Spare him from going down to the pit; I have found a ransom for him'-- JOB 33:25 then his flesh is renewed like a child's; it is restored as in the days of his youth . JOB 33:26 He prays to God and finds favor with him, he sees God's face and shouts for joy, he is restored by God to his righteous state.
Clearly here we have an example of an Angel acting as a mediator for a man who is about to die from sickness and sin and yet by the Angels mediation the man is restored to his health and his righteous state. By virtue of the Angels persuading intercessory prayer to God to have mercy on the man, the man was spared death.
Here is another example This is in the negative but clearly shows that departed saints go before the very throne of God and make intercessory prayer for those of us on earth.
JER 15:1 Then the LORD said to me: "Even if Moses and Samuel were to stand before me, my heart would not go out to this people. Send them away from my presence! Let them go!
The unique Mediatorship of Christ no more prevents our brother and sister Christians in heaven from praying for us than it prevents our brother and sister Christians here on earth from praying for us. It is intercessory prayer in both cases.
Talking to those in heaven is not forbidden. In fact, it is encouraged, for in the Psalms we pray to the angels to ask them to join us in worshipping God:
"Bless the LORD, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the LORD, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Psalm 103:20-21).
"Praise the LORD! Praise the LORD from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Psalm 148:1-2).
These may be prayers in which we are not seeking to get any benefit for ourselves-just asking them to worship with us-but they are requests, and thus prayers, none the less.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2005 10:41:11 PM
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Ezra
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lodrone
These may be prayers in which we are not seeking to get any benefit for ourselves-just asking them to worship with us-but they are requests, and thus prayers, none the less.
That's not how it actually works in Catholic practice. Prayers to Mary are actual prayers seeking to obtain benefits from Christ. In fact, once they become "prescribed" prayers accompanied by a rosary, we have left the realm of the scriptural and entered the realm of the heathen.
Here's the real issue. If Christ and the Holy Spirit -- both God -- are the believers divine Intercessors, what need to address "prayers" to Mary and the saints? Why choose the lesser when the greater intercessors have already committed themselves to intercede for us?
The fact is that the Catholic church has elevated Mary to a position far beyond that of another saint -- she has been made the fourth person of the Trinity (which as you know is absurd).
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2005 10:54:09 PM
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unworthyseraphim
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Dear Mattumanu,
Over the course of your last few post you raised three points I would like to comment on. First you actually bothered to look up some material on the life of St. Seraphim. That is commendable. You expressed a bit of incredulity concerning a holy image by which St. Seraphim was healed as a child. Holy images, icons, a matierial affirmations of the Incarnation, that matter is good and may bear Divinity itself (Christ's body was made of this material creation). Further icons are considered windows to heaven since the image painted is ontologically connected to the prototype who are themselves as Saints living icons of Christ who have fulfilled their high calling. Our worship is almost unthinkable in their abscence, they attest visually to the life in Christ and to Christ in His Church just as the Scriptures do by written word. One is a written record of the life of Christ and the wonders God did in the Church and in ages past, the other is the visual record, and both may be the instruments of the giving and receiving of great grace. That material things may bear healing grace is evident in the Acts where handkerchiefs went out from St. Paul. And if the shadow of the Apostle Peter healed by the grace of God, it is no wonder that same grace may opperate via his image or the image of any other Saint. Orthodoxy has many miracle working icons, some stream myrrh, some have been known to weep or bleed (generally not a good sign), and others have by their presence and the intercession of the one depicted saved whole cities from everything from plagues to natural disasters, and invading armies. Such icons may be little known or appreciated in evangelical circles, but they are well know, loved and venerated among the Orthodox faithful.
Second you took issue the St. Seraphim having a vision of Christ present among the faithful as if that meant Christ was no longer on His throne. This is a very weak objection, primarly because I doubt any of us really understand the "nature" of a vision how it works within or without the context of conventional reality. But in this case that needn't even be considered. Notice what St. Seraphim was doing, and the context of the vision itself. Now, since you are an evangelical what you probably don' t know is that both Orthodox and Catholics understand the Divine Liturgy as an ascent into the heavenlies. Through the liturgy we are lifted up to participate in the eternal worship that is unceasing around the Throne. Indeed we consider no worship to be worship in truth that does not partiicpate in and iconically express that heavenly worship (which is one reason why our worship is liturgical...that is the pattern of heaven) ...the only true worship that there is. So St. Seraphim did not see Christ come down, but rather saw Him in the context of the Heavenly worship unto which St. Seraphim and those worshiping had been drawn up. In this case though only St. Seraphim was of sufficient holiness and purity to behold with spiritual eyes what was hidden to the natural. That was the kind of grace he lived in. That is why his life and witness hold such great power.
Thirdly, you cautioned against being to credulous lest one be taken in by lying wonders and lying wonderworkers. To that, I and all of Orthodoxy would give a hearty triple Amen. We do not receive all supposed miracle working icons, or claims of visitations of the saints, or the working of miralces by anyone or anything. If you ever read the Arena by St. Ignatius Brianchaninov you will see just how very untrusting of such things we are. As St. Paul said, we must prove all things. Icons that begin to weep myrrh or oil are exocised both when they are first noticed to do these things and if they are ever taken to someplace outside their home parish. We do not take careless chances. And with visitations we are more cautious yet, and let seasoned and holy ascetics, often prophets and wonderworkers themselves weigh in such things as well as the careful consideration of the Bishop. Many of the much lauded visitations of the Virgin treasured in the west are out and out rejected as either demonic or psychological delusions, others we reserved judgement on though there are aspects we find a little troubling. And of our own, those that meet the standard are certainly treasured, and remembered, but find it better to be both discrete and low key when it comes to such things. We are the Church, and wonders and miracles belong to her...nothing to get exited about or build a TV ministry around. As for the less accomplished in holiness and asceticism, the only visions of saints or angels that are received as genuine as a rule are those where we are being chastined or scolded given that we are unworthy of such visitations. Indeed we teach the Lord takes as much joy in the caution of a man who refuses to receive a genuine visitation because he is certain he is too unworthy so it must be a deception, as He is in the holy ascetic who is proven and trained and able to receive in his measure such heavenly things. That said, while we are cautious, we are not unbelieving, what is proven and true we cling too like the Apostle Paul taught us to. The life and wonders of St. Seraphim of Sarov belong to the good treasures of the Church.
Finally, you spoke to the reason we look to and try to imulate the Saints as God gives grace...namely that they did do something very right and are worthy of imitation. Then you go on to say but in Scripture there were many great men and women to God who turned out to be terribly flawed at times, and from there you seem to be suggesting that such attempted following of the saints is a varitey of celebrity immitation where we are willfully blind to what must be the many horrible faults of the Saints. The only answer I can give is that of St. Paul who said imitate me as I imitate Christ. Now if anyone in the Church has ever come from a flawed background, it is St. Paul, who began his spiritual career as a persecutor and murderer of Christians. I would certainly not say that anyone should imitate that aspect of his life. St. Mary of Egypt was a notorious prostitute of fathomless appetites for both men and wine for 17 years. That part of her life would make poor immiation. St. Moses the Black, led a band of seventy murderering thieves...until he became a monk. Certianly not a good one to immitate in his early years. St. Elizabeth the Grand Dutchess was a mincing aristocatic socialite, St. Nicholas of Japan a bored cleric in a Russian embassy preoccupied with the latest novels. We are not blind to their faults. Neither are we blind to the great heights they reached in Christ. And it is that aspect of their life we seek to immitate. We follow them as they followed Christ, just as St. Paul taught us in this as well. Be all that as it may, the larger point I was trying to make in reference to the life of St. Seraphim of Sarov, he knew a depth of life in Chirst that was impossible for me or anyone to attain to as an evangelical. What I was taught, the faith as I believed it, and practiced it, if I gave it every ounce of concentration and prayer of which I was capable, while I would surely have become a much better and much wiser Christian, I could not have gone to the hights that St. Seraphim and those like him knew. The faith I had if lived to its absolute fullest could not reduplicate the life in Christ that St. Seraphim knew, a life in Christ that towered over my own faith like Everest over a prarie. What's more as special as he was, his way, the path he followed was the same path followed by every other Orthodox saint. He was not just a special case, he was an example of what we are called to in Christ if we will but follow fully as we are called. He achieved the NT standards of holiness and life in the Spirit that those like me could only speculate and theorize about within the context of our own faith, whose practice as we knew it hadn't gotten anyone back to that level of life in Christ since Apostolic times. But suddenly here was the dream...the speculaton come alive. That depth of life in Chrirst was not just a theory, or limited to an earlier age...it just had to be attained by the path of faith that could actually get one there. The life and faith of St. Serpahim showed me how naked the "emperor" of my own charismatic evangelical faith really was. I could not honestly deny what I had met in him. My faith didn't work the way it was supposed to, not as advertised at all. His did, and I wanted what he had, but that could not be had within the evangelical theological model.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/29/2005 11:19:48 PM
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texastweet
Posts: 376
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Ezra,
Why do you poison the well.
quote:
In fact, once they become "prescribed" prayers accompanied by a rosary, we have left the realm of the scriptural and entered the realm of the heathen.
So is the our father a prescribed prayer? If one keeps track of how many is said then that is automatically heathen?
quote:
she has been made the fourth person of the Trinity (which as you know is absurd).
Of course thats why the Catholic Church doesn't teach that and I have never heard anyone state it. And you can not bring one iota of proof to sustain any of these claims/statements. People are trying to have a civil conversation and you are simply trying to get people riled up. Or so it appears. Why do you even post stuff like that?
Otis
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/30/2005 5:58:38 PM
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Mattumanu
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It is unofficially taught, whether you want to admit or not. Pope John Paul himself referred to Mary as "co redemtrix" in a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador...
quote:
"...Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity... In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son."
In his enyclical, Redemptoris Mater, he refers again to Mary as not only a co-redemtrix, but as a co-mediator AND as an advocate.
Then there's this bit...
quote:
"Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs."
Also, by Pope John Paul II.
Now, none of this is considered Infallible by papal decree. However, it has been suggested that it be made infallible. Professor Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH, made an official petition to the vatican to declare the dogma of Marian co redemptrix and mediator infallible. It would mean that official church teaching would say that Mary is co-redeemer with Jesus, actively participating in our redemption, be co-mediator of the covenant of grace and have power to give all graces, and be co-advocate with the power to influence God's judgement. If such a petition were to be granted, and an official papal bull be drawn up, then everyone in the catholic church would be REQUIRED to believe it.
As of right now, I find information saying that over 6 million signature have been collected supporting such a declaration, including Mother Theresa, Some 600 bishops, Cardinal John O'conner and some 50 other cardinal, many of whom reside in Rome.
The six Dogmas of Mary would then include...
1- The Mother of God... the Prophecy of the Bible about Mary
2- Ever-Virgin... asserted by the Reformers... and the Bible
3- The Immaculate Conception... every child looks like his mother!
4- The Assumption... The Queen of Heaven, of Earth, and of your Heart.
5- The Mother of the Church... The Woman of Genesis 3:15... and of Revelation 12
6- Mary: Co-redeemer, Mediator, Advocate... the work of the Queen in her Reign.
_____________________________
Radical Grace Radio
Tear Down the High Places
I'm a converted pagan operating amongst a nation of apostate puritans ~ C. S. Lewis
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/30/2005 6:01:26 PM
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Mattumanu
Posts: 160
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Here's a copy of the petition...
quote:
Petition For the Papal definition of Mary,
Coredemptrix Mediatrix and Advocate
To His Holiness Pope John Paul II
Your Holiness:
With filial love, we the faithful wish to humbly petition you, the Vicar of Christ, to solemnly define as Christian dogma the Church's constant teaching on Mary's co redemptive role with Christ the Redeemer of humanity. It is our belief that such a definition will bring to light the whole truth about Mary, Daughter of the Father, Mother of the Son, Spouse of the Spirit and Mother of the Church. Therefore it is our prayer that the Holy Spirit will guide you, Holy Father, to define and proclaim the Blessed Virgin Mary as Coredemptrix, Mediatrix of all grace and Advocate for the People of God. Respectfully submitted:
Name (Signature) Address
1.............................................................
2............................................................
3....................…………………………..etc etc . - please add more lines as necessary.
Please print this out and distribute for the collection of signatures; also distribute this file as widely as possible on the internet. Return completed petition forms to:
Vox Populi Mariae Mediatrici,
c/o Queenship Publishing,
P.O. Box 42028,
Santa Barbara, CA 93140-2028, U.S.A.
Tel (800) 647-9882.
e-mail-: qship@rain.org
You can also send it to your own country contact address.
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Eternal Word Television Network
5817 Old Leeds Road
Irondale, AL 35210
www.ewtn.com
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Radical Grace Radio
Tear Down the High Places
I'm a converted pagan operating amongst a nation of apostate puritans ~ C. S. Lewis
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/30/2005 6:56:03 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1780
Status: offline
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Otis:
Now that you've seen some actual documentation, do you need more proof of these false teachings, or are you prepared to give them up altogether? Sure, the truth hurts, but in the end it heals.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/30/2005 7:07:05 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mattumanu
It is unofficially taught, whether you want to admit or not. Pope John Paul himself referred to Mary as "co redemtrix" in a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador...
quote:
"...Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity... In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son."
In his enyclical, Redemptoris Mater, he refers again to Mary as not only a co-redemtrix, but as a co-mediator AND as an advocate.
Then there's this bit...
quote:
"Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs."
Also, by Pope John Paul II.
Now, none of this is considered Infallible by papal decree. However, it has been suggested that it be made infallible. Professor Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH, made an official petition to the vatican to declare the dogma of Marian co redemptrix and mediator infallible. It would mean that official church teaching would say that Mary is co-redeemer with Jesus, actively participating in our redemption, be co-mediator of the covenant of grace and have power to give all graces, and be co-advocate with the power to influence God's judgement. If such a petition were to be granted, and an official papal bull be drawn up, then everyone in the catholic church would be REQUIRED to believe it.
As of right now, I find information saying that over 6 million signature have been collected supporting such a declaration, including Mother Theresa, Some 600 bishops, Cardinal John O'conner and some 50 other cardinal, many of whom reside in Rome.
The six Dogmas of Mary would then include...
1- The Mother of God... the Prophecy of the Bible about Mary
2- Ever-Virgin... asserted by the Reformers... and the Bible
3- The Immaculate Conception... every child looks like his mother!
4- The Assumption... The Queen of Heaven, of Earth, and of your Heart.
5- The Mother of the Church... The Woman of Genesis 3:15... and of Revelation 12
6- Mary: Co-redeemer, Mediator, Advocate... the work of the Queen in her Reign.
Dear Mattumanu,
For more information, please read. . .http://www.catholicbridge.com/evangelical/mary_mediatrix_co-redemptrix.htm
On the Feast of St. Peter Chrysologus
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/30/2005 7:10:57 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
Otis:
Now that you've seen some actual documentation, do you need more proof of these false teachings, or are you prepared to give them up altogether? Sure, the truth hurts, but in the end it heals.
Dear Ezra,
I don't consider it false. It does require a bit of understanding.
http://ic.net/~erasmus/RAZ19.HTM
On the Feast of St. Peter Chrysologus
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/30/2005 7:12:24 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 740
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mattumanu
It is unofficially taught, whether you want to admit or not. Pope John Paul himself referred to Mary as "co redemptrix" in a speech in Guayaquil, Ecuador...
quote:
"...Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity... In fact Mary’s role as Co-redemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son."
In his enyclical, Redemptoris Mater, he refers again to Mary as not only a co-redemtrix, but as a co-mediator AND as an advocate.
Co-redemptrix, co-mediator, yes. But 4th person of the Trinity no. The Catholic Church has NEVER advocated putting Mary as equal to God the Father, the Son, or the Spirit. To do so would be a heresy of the gravest degree. But the Church is fortunately, guided and protected by the Holy Spirit. That said, I see no reason to not honour the Theotokos with the proper titles. She is rightfully called a co-mediator, and as an active participant in the redemption of humanity by freely accepting the motherhood of Jesus, Our Redeemer, could indeed be granted a title of co-redemptrix. These titles are scripturally sound and supported by the teachings of the fathers and the Church.
quote:
Then there's this bit...
quote:
"Mary … co-operated during the event itself and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. She alone was associated in this way with the redemptive sacrifice that merited the salvation of all mankind. In union with Christ and in submission to him, she collaborated in obtaining the grace of salvation for all humanity...In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman’ (cf. John 2:4; John 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, let us turn to Mary, imploring her help in all our needs."
Also, by Pope John Paul II.
And whatt exactly is unscriptural about this? The scriptures are referenced in the quote you gave! O_o
quote:
Now, none of this is considered Infallible by papal decree. However, it has been suggested that it be made infallible. Professor Mark Miravalle of Franciscan University in Steubenville, OH, made an official petition to the vatican to declare the dogma of Marian co redemptrix and mediator infallible. It would mean that official church teaching would say that Mary is co-redeemer with Jesus, actively participating in our redemption, be co-mediator of the covenant of grace and have power to give all graces, and be co-advocate with the power to influence God's judgement. If such a petition were to be granted, and an official papal bull be drawn up, then everyone in the catholic church would be REQUIRED to believe it.
So?
quote:
As of right now, I find information saying that over 6 million signature have been collected supporting such a declaration, including Mother Theresa, Some 600 bishops, Cardinal John O'conner and some 50 other cardinal, many of whom reside in Rome.
Make that six million and one! I need to sign this thing! :D
quote:
The six Dogmas of Mary would then include...
1- The Mother of God... the Prophecy of the Bible about Mary
2- Ever-Virgin... asserted by the Reformers... and the Bible
3- The Immaculate Conception... every child looks like his mother!
4- The Assumption... The Queen of Heaven, of Earth, and of your Heart.
5- The Mother of the Church... The Woman of Genesis 3:15... and of Revelation 12
6- Mary: Co-redeemer, Mediator, Advocate... the work of the Queen in her Reign.
So, what exactly are your arguments against this? These titles and honours are all scripturally sound. If you wish I can go into more detail on each one, but some would naturally have to go into a different thread. Heck, #2 has a thread devoted to it. And I think we have #3 in a seperate thread as well.
You're saying that following the example of Our Blessed Lord Jesus, and honouring His mother is bad?
I'm seriously perplexed how anyone could see these things as unscriptural after doing even a cursory bit of research.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/30/2005 7:39:07 PM
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Mattumanu
Posts: 160
Joined: 2/28/2005
Status: offline
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Let me ask you a question then... Who do you prefer, Jesus or Mary?
If Jesus, then why bring Mary into the situation? If Mary, then what hope do you have?
It's a simple matter of confessional standing. God confessed that he is a jealous God. What do you confess?
_____________________________
Radical Grace Radio
Tear Down the High Places
I'm a converted pagan operating amongst a nation of apostate puritans ~ C. S. Lewis
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/30/2005 8:37:09 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mattumanu
Let me ask you a question then... Who do you prefer, Jesus or Mary?
If Jesus, then why bring Mary into the situation? If Mary, then what hope do you have?
It's a simple matter of confessional standing. God confessed that he is a jealous God. What do you confess?
Dear Mattumanu,
Jesus' role is unique and infinitely greater than Mary, the saints, and all of us put together. It is not endangered by Mary, or by anyone else. We confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, and profess the Communion of Saints.
On the Feast of St. Peter Chrysologus
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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