RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (Full Version)

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texastweet -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (6/6/2008 9:34:53 PM)

Shcupf

(Matt 12) Jesus said to them, “Are you not misled
because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God?
When they rise from the dead,
they neither marry nor are given in marriage,
but they are like the angels in heaven.
As for the dead being raised,
have you not read in the Book of Moses,
in the passage about the bush, how God told him,
I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac,
and the God of Jacob?
He is not God of the dead but of the living.
You are greatly misled.”

Are you?

Otis



kelman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (6/9/2008 5:47:14 PM)

quote:

quote:

I suggest just a tad more attention be paid to the verses you offfer to support the worship of saints and Mary.
And you should read a few more replies before responding...see these: 3815 and 3820.
I generally answer as I read'em...so probably a good idea to get it right the first time, don't you think?....not that you got it right the second, third or.....

I guess, in your case, I best check further posts to see if you've since "corrected" your errors.

quote:

"So Elisha died, and they buried him. Now bands of Moabites used to invade the land in the spring of the year. And as a man was being buried, lo, a marauding band was seen and the man was cast into the grave of Elisha; and as soon as the man touched the bones of Elisha, he revived, and stood on his feet" (2 Kgs. 13:20-21). The woman cured of a hemorrhage by touching the hem of Christ’s cloak (Matt. 9:20-22) and the sick who were healed when Peter’s shadow passed over them (Acts 5:14-16). "And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them" (Acts 19:11-12).

Relics in the bible! [:o]
There are no relics mentioned anywhere in the Bible...that's just another concocted tradition.

Neither Paul's hankerchief or Christ's cloak were relics - that's about the silliest thing yet proposed. They were not historical items garnered from antiquity and preserved.

And neither were Elisha's bones....among other things, that account teaches a glorious glimpse into salvation. But, what does RC do?....turns it into nothing but a piece of propaganda for one of their traditions.

As usual, the Holy Word of God is used as a prop to bolster an unscriptural practice instead of humbling oneself before God by seeking to understand the spiritual aspect of what He is teaching in this historical account.

No, this idea of "relics" remains what it's always been - a superstitious practice.



kelman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (6/9/2008 5:51:09 PM)

quote:

Please then show me the passage that actually prohibits any of these practices.
What a way to run a religion!...well, it doesn't say we can't. Of course, the same logic is used by another religion for their Kolob doctrine. Once a religion starts traveling down this road anything is liable to become doctrine; and, as seen in these threads, in fact, has.

quote:

I find little use for looking back to "Jewish" practices when there are 2000 yrs of Christian practices and teaching available for all see and hopefully learn from.
Well, maybe you should if you're going to base your "relic" tradition on an OT passage.

You guys like to pick and choose certain "Jewish" practices to base your religion on...one from column A...one from....

You perpetuate the "Jewish" priestly system. You perpetuate "Jewish" altars and sacrifice upon them. You perpetuate the "Jewish" governmental system of "king" - all in opposition to Scripture.

Hey, were these "Jews" shortsighted or what? They, too, could've claimed they stuffed Elisha's bones into some glass containers.....and made a mint.



texastweet -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (6/9/2008 10:21:31 PM)

quote:

There are no relics mentioned anywhere in the Bible...that's just another concocted tradition.


Kelman,

You are definitely supporting the general observation that ex-catholics are the most stubborn. So what do you think the people did with Pauls relics of clothes? Is there some mandatory time period required that I am unaware of before an object becomes a relic? There are simply clear biblical examples of the general principal that objects can transmit Gods power if He so chooses. You seem to deny that power to God.

quote:

What a way to run a religion!...well, it doesn't say we can't.


You of course ignore the fact that the previous biblical examples provided plenty of opportunity for the Holy Spirit to condemn said practices but He doesn't. Did Paul go back and collect his relics and stop people from doing it. We are simply letting scripture speak for itself, but since that doesn't fit your view you ignore it.

In context of course my Jewish point was that protestants ignore the Catholic practices of the past 2000 yrs and invent things that sound good to them alone. The Catholic Church is of course the fulfillment of the OT promises.

Otis



texastweet -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (6/9/2008 10:47:39 PM)

Just something to think about...LINK

Otis



stellaluna -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (6/10/2008 9:24:35 AM)

If I was healed that way, I sure wouldn't credit a dead human with it. [sm=aside.gif]



Heavendweller -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (6/10/2008 6:11:23 PM)

quote:


ORIGINAL: stellaluna

If I was healed that way, I sure wouldn't credit a dead human with it. [sm=aside.gif]

Stella,
Me thinks the only way a person can be deemed a "Saint" and canonized as such according to Catholic teaching, is to have so many healings/miracles attributed to them. And these healings/miracles must be substantiated, which is done by a thorough investigation. Forget who does the investigating offhand. Not sure of the number of miracles/healings that is required either. Also, there are certain virtues that must be attributed to their life here on earth. JPII had more people canonized as Saints than any other pope before him.

The one thing that creeped me out (for lack of a better term) was the honoring of the incorruptable saints. Their bodies are on display in many RC churches in Europe. And then there are the Saints who had body parts cut off of them so they could be sent to various parishes and placed beneath the altar. So the finger of one saint is beneath a particular altar, and the heart of another, and the hair of another, and so forth.

Different strokes for different folks.

Heavendweller



texastweet -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (6/10/2008 9:23:28 PM)

quote:

The one thing that creeped me out (for lack of a better term) was the honoring of the incorruptable saints.


So Heaven you believe in incorruptable saints then? Do you have an opinion how a body can remain incorrupt in a simple casket?

BTW, is there any biblical support for prayer to the Holy Spirit. I found some protestant commentaries that only pray to God and not to the HS or Jesus!

Otis



kelman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (6/11/2008 2:27:37 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: texasweet
You are definitely supporting the general observation that ex-catholics are the most stubborn.
Nope, not stubborn, just an ardent believer of the Word of God; and one who rejects that which violates it.

quote:

So what do you think the people did with Pauls relics of clothes? Is there some mandatory time period required that I am unaware of before an object becomes a relic?
What are you talking about? Who knows what happened to Paul's clothing and why would anyone care?

quote:

There are simply clear biblical examples of the general principal that objects can transmit Gods power if He so chooses. You seem to deny that power to God.
God can do what He pleases and, in fact, it pleased Him to be silent about "relics". You can build any theolgy you want by building it on what the Bible doesn't say; and, in fact, your church has done just that.

quote:

You of course ignore the fact that the previous biblical examples provided plenty of opportunity for the Holy Spirit to condemn said practices but He doesn't.
Rather, what you ignore is the fact that Scripture makes absolutely NO mention of gathering anyone's clothes or bones to save as relics. Besides, isn't it desecrating to not bury the bones of the dead?

quote:

Did Paul go back and collect his relics and stop people from doing it. We are simply letting scripture speak for itself, but since that doesn't fit your view you ignore it.
Paul didn't HAVE any relics to go back and collect. You are simply reading your church traditions into Scripture. You guys work backwards...first, you develope a doctrine, then scurry about to find something anything which might have some infinitesimal application. You fail at every turn, be it the papacy, prayers to Mary, etc., and now, relics.

quote:

In context of course my Jewish point was that protestants ignore the Catholic practices of the past 2000 yrs and invent things that sound good to them alone. The Catholic Church is of course the fulfillment of the OT promises.
No, Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of the OT promises. RC simply continues the OT ceremonial laws. Laws which Christ abrogated by His coming. So, of course, your practices should be ignored....few, of which are 2000 yrs old anyway. Ancient Israel was used by God as a figure or type of the Israel of God - true believers - not any particular denomination.



Doghouse -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (6/17/2008 5:34:07 AM)

quote:

If I was healed that way, I sure wouldn't credit a dead human with it.
I think comments like this are reflective of a faith that believes that we merely profess, and don't perform our faith.

There is a culture running within the smallest fragment of Christianity that believes that all faithful are equally blessed, equally graced, and equally perform in the cooperation of with that accepted grace. Dismissing the many examples we have around us that contradict that hypothesis, they continue to ignore the workings of God's grace in others who cooperate with it better than they themselves do.

To their own detriment.

Who is worshipping God by admiring and mimicking the way God worked through another believer?

Who is dismissing God and the workings of His grace by dismissing the charity, faith and hope demonstrated in others as a non-essential aspect of Christian faith?

Who is glorifying God, and who is ignoring God?



stellaluna -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (6/17/2008 11:04:27 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Doghouse
Who is glorifying God, and who is ignoring God?

I didn't hear anything about God being glorified in the entire story...I heard about a dead guy in a building being glorified. So I'll say it again: If I was healed in that manner, I would not have given credit to the dead guy.



Cloak -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (6/20/2008 1:50:41 PM)

Having been raised up in a Roman Catholic school with the nuns and being tolerant Christian, yes Roman Catholics do pray for the Holy Virgin and the saints. It took me so many years to try to understand how they can do that till one day I asked a Catholic believing lady about it and she explained it to me in a very simple way that really made sense to me. When they pray for a say saint be it Mary the virgin or any of those saints, they are doing an intercessory prayers where they implore a particular saint to pray with/for them in the same way when we ask a brother or sister to pray for us.



Doghouse -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (6/20/2008 6:35:49 PM)

quote:

When they pray for a say saint be it Mary the virgin or any of those saints, they are doing an intercessory prayers where they implore a particular saint to pray with/for them in the same way when we ask a brother or sister to pray for us.
...It's not really all that hard or complicated to get, is it...?

All the "can they hear us, can't they here us" stuff is a semantics discussion. God hears us, honoring His grace acted out in another human, and the praying human recognizing that God-given grace and wanting the same. Don't we think that God is honored and worshipped by that?

Do people really equate the request of intercessory prayers from a Saint as believing that the Saint can grant anything but prayers on our behalf?



onerock -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (6/21/2008 1:47:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

quote:

ORIGINAL: texasweet
You are definitely supporting the general observation that ex-catholics are the most stubborn.
Nope, not stubborn, just an ardent believer of the Word of God; and one who rejects that which violates it.

quote:

So what do you think the people did with Pauls relics of clothes? Is there some mandatory time period required that I am unaware of before an object becomes a relic?
What are you talking about? Who knows what happened to Paul's clothing and why would anyone care?

...


Hello Kelman,

Its good to know that you are an ardent believer of the Word of God and that you would reject anything that which violates it.

In this regard can you provide us your definition or understanding of what a "relic" is and why you think it is in violation of what Scripture teaches?

Can you also explain to us if it is in violation of what Scripture teaches to believe that God can use physical objects to serve as mediums or instruments to convey his supernatural power (healing, etc.) to people or to the physical world around us?

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

...

quote:

You of course ignore the fact that the previous biblical examples provided plenty of opportunity for the Holy Spirit to condemn said practices but He doesn't.
Rather, what you ignore is the fact that Scripture makes absolutely NO mention of gathering anyone's clothes or bones to save as relics. Besides, isn't it desecrating to not bury the bones of the dead?

...


Kelman,

Can you also explain to us where you got the notion that it would be desecrating to not bury the bones of the dead? Is it a teaching from the Word of God? Can you show us where it says that to not bury the bones of the dead is equivalent to desecrating it?

I am asking those questions because I've looked up the dictionary definitions of "desecrate" and it does not mention anything which says that the very act of not burying the bones of the dead is equivalent to desecrating it already.

quote:

Desecrate (Definitions):

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/desecrate.html

1. insult something holy: to damage something sacred, or do something that is offensive to the religious nature of something
2. damage something revered: to damage something that is held dear or revered

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/desecrate

1 : to violate the sanctity of : profane <desecrate a shrine>
2 : to treat disrespectfully, irreverently, or outrageously <the kind of shore development…that has desecrated so many waterfronts — John Fischer>

http://www.answers.com/topic/desecration-2

Desecration is the act of depriving something of its sacred character -- or the disrespectful or contemptuous treatment of that which is held to be sacred by a group or individual. Those who hold the desecrated thing as sacred may consider desecratory acts to be sacrilegious acts. This can include desecration of sacred books, sacred places or sacred objects. Desecration generally may be considered from the perspective of a particular religion or spiritual activity. Desecration may be applied to natural systems or components particularly if those systems are part of naturalistic spiritual religion.


What stands out from the definition of "desecrate" is that for an action to be considered "desecrating", there should be an intent or motive to do damage, dishonor, or insult something that is held dear or is revered. (But hey, maybe you know a passage in Scripture which explains your assertion above. Can you share it to us?)

Hey, Kelman. Isn't it only necessary that before you can resort to the objection that it will be desecrating to not bury the bones of the dead, you (yourself) must have a disposition which treats the bones with honor or reverence?

Hope you can clarify these things in the discussion here.


Thanks and God Bless!
onerock



ukfan -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (6/22/2008 10:30:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

quote:

ORIGINAL: texasweet
You are definitely supporting the general observation that ex-catholics are the most stubborn.
Nope, not stubborn, just an ardent believer of the Word of God; and one who rejects that which violates it.

quote:

So what do you think the people did with Pauls relics of clothes? Is there some mandatory time period required that I am unaware of before an object becomes a relic?
What are you talking about? Who knows what happened to Paul's clothing and why would anyone care?


The sick that God healed by using the pieces of Paul's clothing would probably care.



kelman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (6/23/2008 5:13:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Cloak

Having been raised up in a Roman Catholic school with the nuns and being tolerant Christian, yes Roman Catholics do pray for the Holy Virgin and the saints. It took me so many years to try to understand how they can do that till one day I asked a Catholic believing lady about it and she explained it to me in a very simple way that really made sense to me. When they pray for a say saint be it Mary the virgin or any of those saints, they are doing an intercessory prayers where they implore a particular saint to pray with/for them in the same way when we ask a brother or sister to pray for us.
And while they are doing so they offer the saint/Mary worship since only God is worthy of the worship of prayer. In addition, the adulation of the saint/Mary is evident from the words used. Just check out those words in some of the Marian prayers for clear proof RC worships her by the prayers offered to her.



kelman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (6/23/2008 5:54:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: onerock

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

quote:

ORIGINAL: texasweet
You are definitely supporting the general observation that ex-catholics are the most stubborn.
Nope, not stubborn, just an ardent believer of the Word of God; and one who rejects that which violates it.

quote:

So what do you think the people did with Pauls relics of clothes? Is there some mandatory time period required that I am unaware of before an object becomes a relic?
What are you talking about? Who knows what happened to Paul's clothing and why would anyone care?

...


Hello Kelman,

Its good to know that you are an ardent believer of the Word of God and that you would reject anything that which violates it.

In this regard can you provide us your definition or understanding of what a "relic" is and why you think it is in violation of what Scripture teaches?
Wouldn't an RC know better what they consider a "relic". In any event, relics would be items such as the bones of supposed saints and/or pieces of the supposed Cross to mention a few. And, obviously it violates Scripture for two reasons. One, God never so much as intimates we are to save and use body parts to somehow worship Him. Rather, He gives us clear instructions on how to worship Him...and, it ain't by the use of dead body parts.

Second, there is no way to validate the supposed "relics"; thereby, one is "treasuring" a lie, no doubt. We are instructed to worship God in the following manner: "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

quote:

Can you also explain to us if it is in violation of what Scripture teaches to believe that God can use physical objects to serve as mediums or instruments to convey his supernatural power (healing, etc.) to people or to the physical world around us?
On a few occasions, the Apostles used these methods(sort of); but, we find no evidence of their continuation past the latter chapters of Acts. Therefore, since God did not continue with that type of supernatural physical healing, there is no reason to suppose it continues today. You will find no one who has grown a limb - the type of healing Christ performed.

Generally, though, God works through the medical profession; and, of course, never through the dead body parts of supposed saints. That remains simply superstition. Anytime anyone is healed, be it a Christian or an Atheist, God is the one who heals, He is the Giver of life.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

...

quote:

You of course ignore the fact that the previous biblical examples provided plenty of opportunity for the Holy Spirit to condemn said practices but He doesn't.
Rather, what you ignore is the fact that Scripture makes absolutely NO mention of gathering anyone's clothes or bones to save as relics. Besides, isn't it desecrating to not bury the bones of the dead?

Kelman,

Can you also explain to us where you got the notion that it would be desecrating to not bury the bones of the dead? Is it a teaching from the Word of God? Can you show us where it says that to not bury the bones of the dead is equivalent to desecrating it?
Generally, Christians lovingly bury their dead to await the body's physical resurrection on the last day. They learned this from God's Word as example after example is given of burying the dead. Most notable among these examples are the followers of Christ as they lovingly laid His body in the tomb. Intact, I might add. Oh, what a coup that would be to have a body part of Jesus Christ to parade about! Guess, you had to settle for just a "fragment" of His cross, though.

But, hey, if you guys think the parading around of dead body parts of supposed saints is not desecrating, that's cool... I'm okay with it being just a silly practice not a desecrating one.

quote:

Hey, Kelman. Isn't it only necessary that before you can resort to the objection that it will be desecrating to not bury the bones of the dead, you (yourself) must have a disposition which treats the bones with honor or reverence?
Hey, onerock, isn't it necessary that before you object to a portion of someone's post you actually read it? I never said it WOULD BE desecrating, I simply asked the question...that's what question marks(?????) are for - questions.

quote:

Hope you can clarify these things in the discussion here.
Hope I have.



kelman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (6/23/2008 5:58:48 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ukfan

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

quote:

ORIGINAL: texasweet
You are definitely supporting the general observation that ex-catholics are the most stubborn.
Nope, not stubborn, just an ardent believer of the Word of God; and one who rejects that which violates it.

quote:

So what do you think the people did with Pauls relics of clothes? Is there some mandatory time period required that I am unaware of before an object becomes a relic?
What are you talking about? Who knows what happened to Paul's clothing and why would anyone care?


The sick that God healed by using the pieces of Paul's clothing would probably care.
You're right they would care. The problem is they are now dead and hopefully buried intact; and, there remains NO pieces of Paul's clothing or body parts. Nor does there remain any instructions from God to use body parts or clothing from supposed saints to worship Him. He is clear on the methods we are to use and none of them include prayer to saints/Mary or the use of body parts.



onerock -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (6/26/2008 2:02:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

...

Wouldn't an RC know better what they consider a "relic". In any event, relics would be items such as the bones of supposed saints and/or pieces of the supposed Cross to mention a few. And, obviously it violates Scripture for two reasons. One, God never so much as intimates we are to save and use body parts to somehow worship Him. Rather, He gives us clear instructions on how to worship Him...and, it ain't by the use of dead body parts.

Second, there is no way to validate the supposed "relics"; thereby, one is "treasuring" a lie, no doubt. We are instructed to worship God in the following manner: "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

...

Hello Kelman,

Looks to me like you are under the notion that we cannot use objects, or creatures, (events, memories, etc) to serve as reminders for us to worship our heavenly Father.. Is that against biblical teaching? Can you show that to us from Scripture?


quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

...

quote:

Can you also explain to us if it is in violation of what Scripture teaches to believe that God can use physical objects to serve as mediums or instruments to convey his supernatural power (healing, etc.) to people or to the physical world around us?
On a few occasions, the Apostles used these methods(sort of); but, we find no evidence of their continuation past the latter chapters of Acts. Therefore, since God did not continue with that type of supernatural physical healing, there is no reason to suppose it continues today. You will find no one who has grown a limb - the type of healing Christ performed.

Generally, though, God works through the medical profession; and, of course, never through the dead body parts of supposed saints. That remains simply superstition. Anytime anyone is healed, be it a Christian or an Atheist, God is the one who heals, He is the Giver of life.

...



Kelman, are you not accusing God of being a liar when you say that "God works through the medical profession; and, of course, never through the dead body parts of supposed saints. That remains simply superstition." when in fact you were already shown this incident from the Word of God where God's healing power was brought about thru the bones of the prophet Elisha.

quote:

2 Kings 13:20
20 Elisha died and was buried. Now Moabite raiders used to enter the country every spring. 21 Once while some Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a band of raiders; so they threw the man's body into Elisha's tomb. When the body touched Elisha's bones, the man came to life and stood up on his feet.


Can you still claim to be an ardent believer of the Word of God?


Kelman, you acknowledge now (though hesitantly) that God can and did use objects (clothing, aprons, etc.) to bring about healing when you said "On a few occasions, the Apostles used these methods(sort of)...";
But you immediately raised the objection afterwards saying "we find no evidence of their continuation past the latter chapters of Acts. Therefore, since God did not continue with that type of supernatural physical healing, there is no reason to suppose it continues today."

Can you explain this description of the Church by Paul in his epistle to the Corinthians?

quote:

1 Corinthians 12:27-28
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.


Is there an expiry date to this description of the church by Paul after which there will be no more workers of miracles and those having gifts of healing?

Can you share to us from the Word of God where this expiry date is mentioned?

Thanks and God Bless!
onerock



kelman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (6/27/2008 6:03:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: onerock

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

...

Wouldn't an RC know better what they consider a "relic". In any event, relics would be items such as the bones of supposed saints and/or pieces of the supposed Cross to mention a few. And, obviously it violates Scripture for two reasons. One, God never so much as intimates we are to save and use body parts to somehow worship Him. Rather, He gives us clear instructions on how to worship Him...and, it ain't by the use of dead body parts.

Second, there is no way to validate the supposed "relics"; thereby, one is "treasuring" a lie, no doubt. We are instructed to worship God in the following manner: "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

...

Hello Kelman,

Looks to me like you are under the notion that we cannot use objects, or creatures, (events, memories, etc) to serve as reminders for us to worship our heavenly Father.. Is that against biblical teaching? Can you show that to us from Scripture?
Who mentioned "events or memories"?....were we not speaking of RELICS? If you want to worship God by some "memory" experience you had or by some created being, have at it; but don't pretend that God sanctions such behavior. Can you show from Scripture where we are told to use artifacts to worship God?

In any event, the use of idols is forbidden and I've already posted how we are to worship God....in spirit and in truth. God is worshipped in the hearts of His people NOT in idols, images, icons or relics.

"Neither is worshiped with men's hands"-Acts 17:25

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:

Can you also explain to us if it is in violation of what Scripture teaches to believe that God can use physical objects to serve as mediums or instruments to convey his supernatural power (healing, etc.) to people or to the physical world around us?
On a few occasions, the Apostles used these methods(sort of); but, we find no evidence of their continuation past the latter chapters of Acts. Therefore, since God did not continue with that type of supernatural physical healing, there is no reason to suppose it continues today. You will find no one who has grown a limb - the type of healing Christ performed.

Generally, though, God works through the medical profession; and, of course, never through the dead body parts of supposed saints. That remains simply superstition. Anytime anyone is healed, be it a Christian or an Atheist, God is the one who heals, He is the Giver of life.
Kelman, are you not accusing God of being a liar when you say that "God works through the medical profession; and, of course, never through the dead body parts of supposed saints. That remains simply superstition." when in fact you were already shown this incident from the Word of God where God's healing power was brought about thru the bones of the prophet Elisha.
What a silly question; but, there is room for accusation that you are not "rightly dividing the word".

Because of your theology of continued revelation you are unaware of what Scripture teaches us. Yes, God did do supernatural acts; but, when the Apostles left us and the canon was closed, so, also did God stop performing supernatural acts whereby He set aside the natural laws of this earth. These supernatural acts were performed by Christ and the Apostles to authenticate that their authority was from God. It is not for the use of men to propagandized their particular theology.

quote:

quote:

2 Kings 13:20
20 Elisha died and was buried. Now Moabite raiders used to enter the country every spring. 21 Once while some Israelites were burying a man, suddenly they saw a band of raiders; so they threw the man's body into Elisha's tomb. When the body touched Elisha's bones, the man came to life and stood up on his feet.
Can you still claim to be an ardent believer of the Word of God?
I can; though, judging from what you've written so far, it is doubtful that you can.

quote:

Kelman, you acknowledge now (though hesitantly) that God can and did use objects (clothing, aprons, etc.) to bring about healing when you said "On a few occasions, the Apostles used these methods(sort of)...";
Nope, not "hesitantly" in the least. I'm quite familiar with what Scripture teaches and what it does NOT teach. And it does NOT teach that we are to use the body parts of dead people to supposedly effect a miracle. If you differ, then please present Scripture which tells us to use body parts in this manner.

quote:

But you immediately raised the objection afterwards saying "we find no evidence of their continuation past the latter chapters of Acts. Therefore, since God did not continue with that type of supernatural physical healing, there is no reason to suppose it continues today."
Of course, I immediately raise the objection because it IS what the Bible teaches.

quote:

Can you explain this description of the Church by Paul in his epistle to the Corinthians?

1 Corinthians 12:27-28
27 Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it. 28 And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.

Is there an expiry date to this description of the church by Paul after which there will be no more workers of miracles and those having gifts of healing?

Can you share to us from the Word of God where this expiry date is mentioned?
Yes, as a matter of fact there is and I would be delighted to share it with you. It is called Revelation 22:18. God is indicating here that there will be no more revelation from Him, no more visions, no more angel visitations, no more dreams, no more voices and no more messages in tongues from God. That has all come to an end. So, if we want to know God's will, we read the Bible - we now have the whole Bible - all 66 books of it.



onerock -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (6/29/2008 10:40:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

quote:

ORIGINAL: onerock

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

...

Wouldn't an RC know better what they consider a "relic". In any event, relics would be items such as the bones of supposed saints and/or pieces of the supposed Cross to mention a few. And, obviously it violates Scripture for two reasons. One, God never so much as intimates we are to save and use body parts to somehow worship Him. Rather, He gives us clear instructions on how to worship Him...and, it ain't by the use of dead body parts.

Second, there is no way to validate the supposed "relics"; thereby, one is "treasuring" a lie, no doubt. We are instructed to worship God in the following manner: "God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth."

...

Hello Kelman,

Looks to me like you are under the notion that we cannot use objects, or creatures, (events, memories, etc) to serve as reminders for us to worship our heavenly Father.. Is that against biblical teaching? Can you show that to us from Scripture?
Who mentioned "events or memories"?....were we not speaking of RELICS? If you want to worship God by some "memory" experience you had or by some created being, have at it; but don't pretend that God sanctions such behavior. Can you show from Scripture where we are told to use artifacts to worship God?

...


Hello Kelman,

Keep in mind what I was asking you: Are we allowed in Scripture to use objects, creatures, (events/memories) to serve as reminders for us to worship our heavenly Father?

In your response you are saying that we should not pretend that God sanctions or allows such behaviors.

Kelman, lets assume that you are correct in saying that God does not allow the use of objects, creatures, events/memories to serve as reminders for us to worship God.

Can you explain to us how the following Scripture verses support your assertion that God does not allow the use of objects, creatures, events/memories to serve as reminders for us to worship Him:


quote:

Psalms 19:1-6
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

Psalms 8:3-9
3 When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, 4 what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him? 5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor. 6 You made him ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet: 7 all flocks and herds, and the beasts of the field, 8 the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas. 9 O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!

Psalms 145:1-6
1 I will exalt you, my God the King; I will praise your name for ever and ever. 2 Every day I will praise you and extol your name for ever and ever. 3 Great is the Lord and most worthy of praise; his greatness no one can fathom. 4 One generation will commend your works to another; they will tell of your mighty acts. 5 They will speak of the glorious splendor of your majesty, and I will meditate on your wonderful works. 6 They will tell of the power of your awesome works, and I will proclaim your great deeds.

Luke 19:37
37 When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen: 38 "Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!"


Can you also explain to us how these Scripture passages violate the teaching that we are to worship God in spirit and in truth?

Thanks and God Bless!
onerock



kelman -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (6/30/2008 4:59:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: onerock
Can you explain to us how the following Scripture verses support your assertion that God does not allow the use of objects, creatures, events/memories to serve as reminders for us to worship Him:

Psalms 19:1-6
1 The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands.

Psalms 8:3-9
3 When I consider your heavens, the work of your fingers, the moon and the stars, which you have set in place, 4 what is man that you are mindful of him, the son of man that you care for him? 5 You made him a little lower than the heavenly beings and crowned him with glory and honor. 6 You made him ruler over the works of your hands; you put everything under his feet: 7 all flocks and herds, and the beasts of the field, 8 the birds of the air, and the fish of the sea, all that swim the paths of the seas. 9 O Lord, our Lord, how majestic is your name in all the earth!

Psalms 145:1-6
1 I will exalt you, my God the King; I will praise your name for ever and ever. 2 Every day I will praise you and extol your name for ever and ever. 3 Great is the Lord and most worthy of praise; his greatness no one can fathom. 4 One generation will commend your works to another; they will tell of your mighty acts. 5 They will speak of the glorious splendor of your majesty, and I will meditate on your wonderful works. 6 They will tell of the power of your awesome works, and I will proclaim your great deeds.
I don't deny that the majestic work of God in creation is a continual cause for us to be reminded of His glory; but what has that to do with carrying around a body part? Your relic is simply a reminder of the supposed saint and his supposed finger or whatever.

quote:

Luke 19:37
37 When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen: 38 "Blessed is the king who comes in the name of the Lord!"
What's your point with this passage? Would you not loudly cry out Hosanna if Christ walked past you, I know I would.

quote:

Can you also explain to us how these Scripture passages violate the teaching that we are to worship God in spirit and in truth?
Those passages obviously do not violate anything God teaches since they are contained in the Word of God. But, these passage are totally unrelated to the practice of "relics", though, apparently for some reason you think they are. That practice does not allow for the practitioner to worship God "in spirit and in truth".

How does the spiritual worship of God stack up against "relics"? Literally not very well. We worship spiritually - not carnally. How do we spiritually worship God as we lovingly gaze upon bones and think upon the owner of those dead bones?

That is how the Jews worshipped - by their ceremonies and external rites - all types and shadows of the Lord Jesus. Now, we worship God as we gain our access to Him through Christ - not through a relic and not through Mary and saints.



onerock -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/10/2008 11:39:47 AM)

Hello Kelman,

Do you now acknowledge that God sanctions or allows the use of objects, creatures, events/memories to serve as reminders for us to serve and worship Him?

Are we allowed to look at His creation (the heavens, the moon, the stars, man, the beasts of the fields, the birds of the air, the works of His hands, His migthy acts, His great deeds, etc..) and be reminded and convicted that God deserves the glory and honor and worship as God alone deserves?

Are we allowed to look at the Saints or any object (relic) and be reminded of the wonderful works of God in the lives of His people?

Are Christians not allowed to look at a cross symbol and be reminded of the wonderful work of redemption that Christ has acquired for us?
(Keep in mind, the cross symbol does not need to be made from a piece of the original cross that Christ carried. It can be made of any material. It does not have to be associated with any known "saint" whatsoever.)

Are Christians not allowed to look at the printed word "cross" and be reminded of the gift of salvation that Christ has acquired for us?

Are Christians not allowed to look at an object or artifact that is associated with a known saint and be reminded of the Words of God that was lived out in the life of that Saint?

Are Christians not allowed to look at the Bible and be reminded of the apostles, saints, the prophets, etc and the mighty works of God for the salvation of all? (Hey remember, the Bible is an artifact or relic of those saints who wrote those books in the Bible).

Kelman, keep in mind all these questions when you object to the use relics in the life of any Christian.


Thanks and God Bless!
onerock



Zhi -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/10/2008 12:20:32 PM)

Mm, but isn't there a difference regarding whether or not those objects are expected to have any innate "power"?

My Bible is a reminder, but I don't enshrine it, don't kneel before it, don't have parades in the street for it, don't expect to be able to cure my hubby's headache by smacking him across the head with it. Same with my cross necklace.



schupfNoodle -> RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? (7/10/2008 4:59:32 PM)

Well maybe not for headaches. How about for a toothache? It may be worth a try [:D]



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