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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/12/2005 9:42:27 PM
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MsVenta
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Praying to mary is blasphemy. I don't care what the "fathers or popes" say. Acts 5:29 "Then PETER and the OTHER APOSTLES answered and SAID, WE ought to OBEY GOD rather than men.
"Marian Worship" as the pope calls it is a DOCTRINE OF MEN. IT IS NOT SCRIPTURAL and the sad thing is 2 Thes 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should BELIEVE A LIE:
For those that don't believe your "worshipping mary" read the following quote from your pope spoken at the vat. may of 1997 "
quote:
John Paul II expressed his wish that all might discover in these words of Jesus:
"the invitation to accept Mary as their mother, responding as true children to her motherly love. At the moment that Jesus entrusts his mother to St. John, "it is possible to understand the AUTHENTIC MEANING OF MARIAN WORSHIP IN THE ECCLESIAL community ... which furthermore is based on the will of Christ."
John Paul II underlined that:
"The history of Christian piety teaches that MARY IS THE PATH THAT LEADS TO CHRIST, and that filial devotion to her does not at all diminish intimacy with Jesus, but rather, it increases it and leads it to very high levels of perfection."
Christ FORBIDS worshipping Images, Idols, other people and the fact that the pope claims she is the "path that leads to Christ" is FALSE DOCTRINE.
JOHN 10:1, 7, 9
"Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that ENTERETH NOT BY THE DOOR into the sheepfold, but CLIMBETH up SOME OTHER WAY, the same is A THIEF and A ROBBER."
Then SAID JESUS unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I AM THE DOOR of the SHEEP.
"I AM THE DOOR: BY ME IF ANY MAN ENTER IN, HE SHALL BE SAVED, and shall go in and out, and find pasture"
These False beliefs are leading billions of souls away from Gods PURE HOLY WORD. Mary is not esteemed any more than the disciples.
Jesus NEVER taught us to pray to Mary. He told us to Pray in our closets, in secret, directly to HIM, where He will reward us openly...Matt 6:6
My dear friends, PRAY for discernment through the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ...DO NOT LOOK only to sin infested man to interpret scripture. The Holy Spirit is the Vicar of Christ...Pray for Him to enter your heart and HE will lead you into all truth. IN JESUS NAME, DON'T BE SCARED....HE'S WATCHING AND WAITING!
God Bless You
MsVenta
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/12/2005 10:27:34 PM
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Lodrone
Posts: 51
Joined: 5/12/2005
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quote:
Venta Marian Worship" as the pope calls it is a DOCTRINE OF MEN. IT IS NOT SCRIPTURAL and the sad thing is 2 Thes 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should BELIEVE A LIE:
For those that don't believe your "worshipping mary" read the following quote from your pope spoken at the vat. may of 1997 "
Let's see what the Catechism of the Catholic Church says.
2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."
2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:
Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.
Since the Pope authured the Catechism you might want to do a little reference work and not with anti Catholics like Loraine Bottner .
quote:
Praying to mary is blasphemy. I don't care what the "fathers or popes" say. Acts 5:29 "Then PETER and the OTHER APOSTLES answered and SAID, WE ought to OBEY GOD rather than men.
You might want to read these words of Christ then read the one of many miraclus cures which have converted many athiests and agnostics especialy doctors
Mar 3:23 And he called them [unto him], and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mar 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
Do you know how many athiests and agnostics were converted just by this one of many miricals?
To be impartial i will use this article from the International Survivalist Society.
Suppurating Fracture of the Leg. - Pierre de Rudder, who lived at Jabbeke, near Ostend, had his leg broken by a falling tree. Dr. Affenaer reduced the fracture and placed it in a starch splint, both bones being fractured and protruding through the skin. The flesh turned gangrenous, a large ulcer formed on the dorsal part of the foot, the wound was full of pus, and Dr. Vassanaere and others, called to a consultation, advised immediate amputation; to which the patient would not consent. About the middle of January Dr. Verriest again advised amputation, without effect. In April the patient was taken to the Grotto at Lourdes. There was a gap of over an inch between the ends of the bones and foul pus poured from the wound. Arrived at the Grotto he felt something happening as he rested on the seat. He knelt down and got up unaided, his leg resumed its normal size, the wounds healed up and the bones were solidly united. De Rudder then got up and walked without crutches to the omnibus which took him back to Ghent. The next day Dr. Affenaer came to visit him;
"he found the bones quite smooth at the scat of fracture, which was firmly united without any callus. The man lived for twenty-three years after, and during that time worked continually on his land without the least sign of fatigue or pain."
"As this case excited an enormous amount of interest throughout Belgium, Dr. van Hoestenberghe, after De Rudder's death, got permission to exhume the body, and he removed the bones of the legs, which are now in the possession of the Bishop of Bruges."
These bones were photographed, right and left leg for comparison: the photograph shows deformity at the scat of the fracture, but perfect union of the bones; there is no shortening and only slight displacement from the straight. The medical gentleman who has so kindly brought this case to my special notice remarks:
How can we explain this case? We are confronted with the same difficulty as in the previous one. It is impossible to reject the direct evidence of so many competent medical men who examined the fracture both before and after the cure. Besides, we have the direct evidence of the united bones which were exhumed in the presence of a number of witnesses. We have no alternative but to admit the miraculous, although it goes dead against all our preconceived notions of the inviolability of natural laws to do so. Are we to believe that Nature's laws can be set aside, or are we to reject all human testimony and the evidence of the bones themselves? Or may it be that the miracle is the result of some unknown law of the spiritual world? When Dr. Verriest examined the fracture three months before the cure, he stated that there was a separation of three centimetres (1 1/3 inches) between the two ends. In the centre of the wound two bony fragments could be seen, blackened and necrosed, and bathed in pus. To obtain a natural cure the necrosed ends would first have to be removed, and by that time the separation of the bones would have amounted to three inches or more. How was this cavity filled up? The periosteum had long since been destroyed by the suppuration ... But here is another difficulty: where did the phosphate of lime come from to fill the gap? It could only come from the blood. Now the whole blood in the body only contains about 1.6 grammes of phosphate of lime, and the callus would require at least four times that amount. Where could it come from?(1) And further, what became of the sequestra? They must have disappeared, but where? And where did all the pus go to? It was so profuse that it poured over the cushions of the vehicle that brought him to the Grotto, much to the annoyance of the driver. And, lastly, the muscles during all these years after the fracture took place were atrophied and useless. How did they regain instantly their pristine vigor? No one is able to answer any of these questions, and yet the cure is incontestable.[/size=2]
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/12/2005 10:38:33 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 119
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Washington, DC
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Lodrone,
That is an excellent point. People who don't approve of devotion to Mary and chose not to participate in it need to look at the results of such devotions. Throughout the history of the Christian faith it has been the appearances of the Blessed Virgin that have led the most people to Christ, be it the ancient ones such as Our Lady of the Snow in Rome or the extraordinary appearance of Our Lady of Guadalupe (who converted nearly the entire country of Mexico to Christianity) or the miraculous appearance at Lourdes; Mary has led souls to Christ, and that is what the Catholic Church teaches about her.
Marian devotion doesn't take away from Christ's glory, but rather fufills it. At the hands of Mary, the mother of Christ, we are led to Jesus her son. Nobody knows a person better than his mother and that is why the Church has taught that prayer to Mary increases one's relationship with Christ as Mary can show us a side of Jesus that we can't see since we never experienced the maternal love that he received from Mary.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/13/2005 6:12:40 PM
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LoyalGypsy
Posts: 1856
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ToolmanUF
Lodrone,
That is an excellent point. People who don't approve of devotion to Mary and chose not to participate in it need to look at the results of such devotions. Throughout the history of the Christian faith it has been the appearances of the Blessed Virgin that have led the most people to Christ, be it the ancient ones such as Our Lady of the Snow in Rome or the extraordinary appearance of Our Lady of Guadalupe (who converted nearly the entire country of Mexico to Christianity) or the miraculous appearance at Lourdes; Mary has led souls to Christ, and that is what the Catholic Church teaches about her.
Marian devotion doesn't take away from Christ's glory, but rather fufills it. At the hands of Mary, the mother of Christ, we are led to Jesus her son. Nobody knows a person better than his mother and that is why the Church has taught that prayer to Mary increases one's relationship with Christ as Mary can show us a side of Jesus that we can't see since we never experienced the maternal love that he received from Mary.
quote:
2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:
Romans 15:17-21
17 Therefore I have reason to glory in Christ Jesus in the things which pertain to God.
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient—
19 in mighty signs and wonders, by the power of the Spirit of God, so that from Jerusalem and round about to Illyricum I have fully preached the gospel of Christ.
20 And so I have made it my aim to preach the gospel, not where Christ was named, lest I should build on another man's foundation,
21 but as it is written: "To whom He was not announced, they shall see; And those who have not heard shall understand."
Greetings,
Paul in verse 21, said in reference to verse 20 mainly that those who have heard the Gospel of Christ in verse 19 should understand in that according to verse 17 “all the glory in Christ pertains to God.”
Yet in verse 18 Paul said “I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me.”
[q] Throughout history of the Christian faith it has been the appearances of the Blessed Virgin that have led the most people to Christ be it the ancient ones such as Our Lady of the Snow in Rome or the extraordinary appearance of Our Lady of Guadeloupe. (who converted nearly the entire country of Mexico to Christianity) or the miraculous appearance at Lourdes.
Mary has led souls to Christ, and that is what the Catholic Church teaches about her. [/q]
I find some unique variables in the words “through me” as Paul mentioned in verse 18 that do not match what mentioned in you’re above quote.
What I see written in the above quote is that history of the Christian faith? As was mentioned above is a little distorted by reason that Mary or the appearance of the blessed virgin, saved the entire country of Mexico or one even one person for that fact.
By any other name this is an image, and if by any other name, faith has no part in the reverence of images.
Gives a resemblance to a follower of Christ but definitely is not Biblical.
Jesus Christ was not an Image that multitudes witnessed, nor was he a metaphor.
Mar 3:23 And he called them [unto him], and said unto them in parables, How can Satan cast out Satan?
Mar 3:26 And if Satan rise up against himself, and be divided, he cannot stand, but hath an end.
IHMO and being that Mexico was Idolatrous, it is not Christian to create Idols to save Idolaters.
2 Kings 23:4-24,
Therefore making reference back to Mark 3:23-26 and is closer to what Jesus is expressing in Mark 3:23-26
In other words one can not cast out Satan or Idolatry with an Idol according to the Christian Faith?
2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:
Jesus said that the Father and I are one, therefore if you honor Jesus you honor the father.
One can not rename it such as in the interpretation in 2132, this is making Paul a liar in verse 18 and verse 19 in Romans 15 by the extraordinary appearance of Our Lady of Guadeloupe and Idol to bring salvation to Idolaters which Paul said,
“For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me”
Jesus was a living vessel and Paul was a living vessel.
Paul uses exactly what is written, and that is “through him” in the same sense that Jesus came through Mary
18 For I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Christ has not accomplished through me, in word and deed, to make the Gentiles obedient—
Mary did not save Paul, therefore Paul did not speak of those things to make the Gentiles obedient or in her name or he would have said “I will not dare to speak of any of those things which Mary and Christ has not accomplished through me. If it applies to one, it must apply to all.
However Mary is included as is with the rest of us, in that “no MAN is greater than his master” therefore God is no respecter of persons or Mary the mother would have been included in reference to the godhead Rev 1:6 and Rev 5:10
Re 1:6
and has made us kings and priests to “His God and Father”, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
Mary was not Jesus’ God.
Re 5:10
And have made us kings and priests to our God; And we shall reign on the earth."
Loyal Gypsy
_____________________________
Ex 19:5 Now therefore, if you will indeed obey My voice
...So the Persians ask that the 300 drop their arms. Leonidas responds; "Persians! Come and get them!"
300 The Movie
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/13/2005 7:57:57 PM
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Lodrone
Posts: 51
Joined: 5/12/2005
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quote:
2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:
Jesus said that the Father and I are one, therefore if you honor Jesus you honor the father.
One can not rename it such as in the interpretation in 2132, this is making Paul a liar in verse 18 and verse 19 in Romans 15
1Ti 5:17 Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.
Rom 13:7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute [is due]; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
JN 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; 26 and whoever lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?"
b]Jesus said glorified Saints will be like the Angels in Heaven and Angels are ministering spirits to those of us on earth!
HEB 1:14 “Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?”
Jesus said that those who die in Christ are transformed and will be like the Angels in heaven and that implies glorified and perfected heavenly Saints (the "spirits of just men made perfect
HEB 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
This passage in Hebrews clearly tells us that we can come to not only Jesus in prayer but to Angels and the Spirit of Righteous Men made perfect which is the glorified Saints in heaven that includes Mary
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/14/2005 6:38:14 PM
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Fwanger
Posts: 337
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Phillipsburg, NJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lodrone
2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it." The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:
Okay, Lutheran here, (watch the Catholics growl  j/k I love you guys)
But I want to throw a word in here about something that really troubles me in regards to this doctrine taught by the Catholic Cathechism. Showing any type of honor in my opinion to something other than God is a form of worship in its own way, and wrong. I am not going to pray to saints or Mary when I can pray to Jesus on my own. To say that praying or worshipping Mary is an honor to her is wrong. No matter how much anyone says it, Mary is not begotten of God. Jesus is. Mary was born of a man and a woman and is therefore sinful. Now, I am not trying to degrade Mary, don't get me wrong. She is the mother of our Lord and Savior. But she is not God. She sinned too ya know. Jesus is the begotten Son of God and therefore ALL WORSHIP AND PRAYERS BELONG TO HIM.
_____________________________
Often have I said, I will never doubt the salvation of any one, so long as I can but know that Christ has accepted me. C.H. Spurgeon "The Way of Salvation"
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/14/2005 8:48:40 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
Okay, Lutheran here, (watch the Catholics growl j/k I love you guys)
But I want to throw a word in here about something that really troubles me in regards to this doctrine taught by the Catholic Cathechism. Showing any type of honor in my opinion to something other than God is a form of worship in its own way, and wrong. I am not going to pray to saints or Mary when I can pray to Jesus on my own. To say that praying or worshipping Mary is an honor to her is wrong. No matter how much anyone says it, Mary is not begotten of God. Jesus is. Mary was born of a man and a woman and is therefore sinful. Now, I am not trying to degrade Mary, don't get me wrong. She is the mother of our Lord and Savior. But she is not God. She sinned too ya know. Jesus is the begotten Son of God and therefore ALL WORSHIP AND PRAYERS BELONG TO HIM.
Dear Fwanger,
Lutheran, huh?
Luther said,
"The veneration of Mary is inscribed in the very depths of the human heart.
(Sermon, September 1, 1522)
[She is the] highest woman and the noblest gem in Christianity after Christ . . . She is nobility, wisdom, and holiness personified. We can never honor her enough. Still honor and praise must be given to her in such a way as to injure neither Christ nor the Scriptures.
(Sermon, Christmas, 1531)
No woman is like you. You are more than Eve or Sarah, blessed above all nobility, wisdom, and sanctity.
(Sermon, Feast of the Visitation, 1537)
One should honor Mary as she herself wished and as she expressed it in the Magnificat. She praised God for his deeds. How then can we praise her? The true honor of Mary is the honor of God, the praise of God's grace . . . Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God.
(Explanation of the Magnificat, 1521)
Luther goes even further, and gives the Blessed Virgin the exalted position of "Spiritual Mother" for Christians, much the same as in Catholic piety:
It is the consolation and the superabundant goodness of God, that man is able to exult in such a treasure. Mary is his true Mother, Christ is his brother, God is his father.
(Sermon, Christmas, 1522)
Mary is the Mother of Jesus and the Mother of all of us even though it was Christ alone who reposed on her knees . . . If he is ours, we ought to be in his situation; there where he is, we ought also to be and all that he has ought to be ours, and his mother is also our mother.
(Sermon, Christmas, 1529)"
Growl yourself, (I like Lutherans too, the real ones that is)
On the Feast of Blessed Kateri Tekakwitha
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/14/2005 9:02:20 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 119
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Washington, DC
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Yes, Luther had quite a devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. I read somewhere that some Lutherans are rediscovering the forgotten Lutheran tradition of devotion to the all-holy, ever virgin mother of God.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/14/2005 11:16:29 PM
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Lodrone
Posts: 51
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quote:
Jesus is the begotten Son of God and therefore ALL WORSHIP AND PRAYERS BELONG TO HIM.
First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Timothy 2:1-4).
We know intercessory prayer certainly does not displease God, for in the passage i just cited, Paul tells us: "This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior."
Asking the saints to interceed is not worhip.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/15/2005 3:47:25 PM
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Fwanger
Posts: 337
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Phillipsburg, NJ
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[
Yes, Luther had a devotion to Mary, because remember, he was Catholic, but Luther also said:
"Therefore let the blessed Virgin keep her special place, for God has adorned her alone among all women in the wolrd with the privilege of giving birth to the Son of God. But this may in no way mean that the on is robbed of the glory of our redemption and liberation."
"To bless her with rosaries and a constant mouthing of 'Hail Mary' takes the honor away from Christ, who mediates salvation."
and "We dare not put our faith in the mother but only in the fact that the child was born."
Martin Luther loved Mary dearly. That is true. But he also was concerned with the idea of the veneration of Mary replacing the diety of Christ. Remember, Luther removed many of the festivals dedicated to Mary from worship in the church. One can love someone without worshipping them or trying to turn them into a deity. Mary is a paradox for many. After all she is the mother of the Son of God. But to say that she was perfect, and that she should be prayed to, well, I just can't see that. Jesus is the one deserving of our prayers. I do not need someone between me and Jesus when I pray. If I don't get what I prayed for, well that is the will of God. Having someone intervene doesn't change that fact.
< Message edited by Fwanger -- 7/15/2005 5:11:07 PM >
_____________________________
Often have I said, I will never doubt the salvation of any one, so long as I can but know that Christ has accepted me. C.H. Spurgeon "The Way of Salvation"
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/15/2005 4:25:11 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 119
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Washington, DC
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quote:
I do not need someone between me and Jesus when I pray. If I don't get what I prayed for, well that is the will of God. Having someone intervene doesn't change that fact.
Then why should we ask our friends and loved ones to pray for us, if we can always go directly to God? It is part of human nature that we want other to pray for us and motivate us in our spiritual lives. That is how Catholics view Mary, as somebody who prays "for" us and motivates us to better serve the Lord. The Church never tells people to wordhip her or treat her as if she were a goddess.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/15/2005 4:59:52 PM
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Fwanger
Posts: 337
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Phillipsburg, NJ
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ToolmanUF
Yes, Luther had quite a devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. I read somewhere that some Lutherans are rediscovering the forgotten Lutheran tradition of devotion to the all-holy, ever virgin mother of God.
Really, where did you hear that? Nothing at all has been mentioned in my church about this.
_____________________________
Often have I said, I will never doubt the salvation of any one, so long as I can but know that Christ has accepted me. C.H. Spurgeon "The Way of Salvation"
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/15/2005 5:05:31 PM
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Fwanger
Posts: 337
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From: Phillipsburg, NJ
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quote:
Growl yourself, (I like Lutherans too, the real ones that is)
What is a real Lutheran?
_____________________________
Often have I said, I will never doubt the salvation of any one, so long as I can but know that Christ has accepted me. C.H. Spurgeon "The Way of Salvation"
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/15/2005 9:13:47 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fwanger
quote:
ORIGINAL: ToolmanUF
Yes, Luther had quite a devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary. I read somewhere that some Lutherans are rediscovering the forgotten Lutheran tradition of devotion to the all-holy, ever virgin mother of God.
Really, where did you hear that? Nothing at all has been mentioned in my church about this.
Dear Fwanger,
Really? You ought to read "Christianity Today." That's where I read it.
On the Feast of St. Bonaventure
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/15/2005 9:15:52 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fwanger
quote:
Growl yourself, (I like Lutherans too, the real ones that is)
What is a real Lutheran?
Dear Fwanger,
One who holds to the beliefs of Luther's Catechisms. Some are hard to tell apart from Evangelicals.
On the Feast of St. Bonaventure
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/15/2005 9:20:14 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Fwanger
[
Yes, Luther had a devotion to Mary, because remember, he was Catholic, but Luther also said:
"Therefore let the blessed Virgin keep her special place, for God has adorned her alone among all women in the wolrd with the privilege of giving birth to the Son of God. But this may in no way mean that the on is robbed of the glory of our redemption and liberation."
"To bless her with rosaries and a constant mouthing of 'Hail Mary' takes the honor away from Christ, who mediates salvation."
and "We dare not put our faith in the mother but only in the fact that the child was born."
Martin Luther loved Mary dearly. That is true. But he also was concerned with the idea of the veneration of Mary replacing the diety of Christ. Remember, Luther removed many of the festivals dedicated to Mary from worship in the church. One can love someone without worshipping them or trying to turn them into a deity. Mary is a paradox for many. After all she is the mother of the Son of God. But to say that she was perfect, and that she should be prayed to, well, I just can't see that. Jesus is the one deserving of our prayers. I do not need someone between me and Jesus when I pray. If I don't get what I prayed for, well that is the will of God. Having someone intervene doesn't change that fact.
Dear Fwanger,
It must be said that there is a wrong kind of attention to the Blessed Mother as well as a right one. Although the right kind is found in Catholic theology, there is too much of the wrong kind in some forms of popular piety. Properly done, I consider the Rosary a great way to meditate the mysteries of salvation.
On the Feast of St. Bonaventure
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/16/2005 2:20:02 PM
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CameronF
Posts: 10
Joined: 6/15/2005
Status: offline
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Why pray to anyone but to God?
To pray to anybody but God suggests that He's too busy to hear us.
It also suggests a worldly concept of Heaven by imposing our view of time on it.
_____________________________
Always willing to listen and consider,
Cameron Fultz
Author of: Prophecy's Architecture: How to Build an End Times Doctrine
ISBN 0970433069
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/16/2005 2:42:53 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: CameronF
Why pray to anyone but to God?
To pray to anybody but God suggests that He's too busy to hear us.
It also suggests a worldly concept of Heaven by imposing our view of time on it.
Dear CameronF,
It is not a matter of God being too busy to listen, or of trying to impose our view of time on Heaven, but of God graciously allowing us to share in His work. Nothing is done apart from God, but it could be that God allows nothing to be done apart from us if it concerns us. I am always happy to talk to someone willing to listen.
On the Feast of St. Mary Magdelene Postel
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/21/2005 10:11:03 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 119
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
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There was a thread started in the General Faith section, but I guess that this is the proper place for its discussion. The thread was talking about the validity of the Rosary and if it violates Scripture or if it chould be used as a helpful Christian meditation. Many criticize it for its repetitive nature and its emphasis on Marian prayers while others praise it for its reflections on the life of Christ.
What is the overall opinion of the Rosary? Do many people even know what the Rosary is?
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/22/2005 9:12:27 AM
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Ps103
Posts: 11526
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
Status: offline
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HERE is the thread, Toolman.
_____________________________
Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/22/2005 10:24:31 AM
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Child4Jesus
Posts: 360
Joined: 5/24/2005
From: Long Island, Nassau, Elmont, NY
Status: offline
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Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 (New Living Translation)
4 There is hope only for the living. For as they say, "It is better to be a live dog than a dead lion!" 5 The living at least know they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, nor are they remembered. 6Whatever they did in their lifetime--loving, hating, envying--is all long gone. They no longer have a part in anything here on earth.
Isaiah 8:19-20 (New American Standard Bible)
19 When they say to you, "Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter," should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living? 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.
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RE: Praying to the Saints & Mary? - 7/22/2005 11:00:28 AM
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Lurker
Posts: 741
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Child4Jesus
Ecclesiastes 9:4-6 (New Living Translation)
4 There is hope only for the living. For as they say, "It is better to be a live dog than a dead lion!" 5 The living at least know they will die, but the dead know nothing. They have no further reward, nor are they remembered. 6Whatever they did in their lifetime--loving, hating, envying--is all long gone. They no longer have a part in anything here on earth.
Isaiah 8:19-20 (New American Standard Bible)
19 When they say to you, "Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter," should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living? 20 To the law and to the testimony! If they do not speak according to this word, it is because they have no dawn.
Why must you assume the saints in Heaven are dead? Our God is not a God of the dead, but a God of the Living. (Matthew 22:32)
See here, in Deuteronomy 34, where Moses dies.
quote:
Then Moses went up from the plains of Moab upon mount Nebo....And Moses the servant of the Lord died there, in the land of Moab.
And yet Jesus talks to Moses and Elijah despite the fact that both had died.
quote:
Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus. They spoke about his departure, which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.
Jesus would often speak of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in terms of living people. He Himself "spoke to the dead" apparently.
The saints aren't dead, they are alive in Christ. They are the ones who have come to Mount Zion, the Heavenly Jerusalem, and are amongst thousands of angels. (Heb 12:22-23).
And we know that the angels and saints in Heaven hear us and present our prayers to the Lord. It's written in the scriptures, "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). Note how the author of Revelation made seperate the elders giving the prayers to God, from the Angels as well, "And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand." (Rev 8:3-4)
So we can see, even from the scriptures, the saints are in heaven, they are alive, and they present to the Lord the our prayers. They are our beloved brothers and sisters in Christ. They are alive in glory with Jesus in heaven. If I can ask you, a fellow believer here on Earth to pray for me, why can I not ask another LIVING brother or sister in Christ who is in Heaven to pray for me? Why must I not ask His Blessed Mother to pray for me?
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Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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