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ORIGINAL: Doghouse

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Outside of the present discussion: do you think that is a possibility?

It becomes an unprovable statement of faith - one way or the other.
Kind of like Tachyons (Google this if you don't know what these are...)
If God hid Mary, did He hide her in heaven...? Is that possibility on the list?

A lot of these discussions are getting a bit silly in the details and semantics.

For this Catholic, all of the press on Mary has to do with what I can hope for in the fulfillment of God's promises for mere mortal souls such as mine, and such as yours. Mary was mere flesh and bones, just like me. But by the power of God's grace, she was prepared and kept to bear our Savior, and when her earthly time was finished, her pristine person was assumed into heaven.

Where are all those 'rapture' folks in the "End Times" thread when you need them?

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ORIGINAL: WesSavedByGrace

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ORIGINAL: Doghouse

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Outside of the present discussion: do you think that is a possibility?

It becomes an unprovable statement of faith - one way or the other.
Kind of like Tachyons (Google this if you don't know what these are...)
If God hid Mary, did He hide her in heaven...? Is that possibility on the list?

A lot of these discussions are getting a bit silly in the details and semantics.

For this Catholic, all of the press on Mary has to do with what I can hope for in the fulfillment of God's promises for mere mortal souls such as mine, and such as yours. Mary was mere flesh and bones, just like me. But by the power of God's grace, she was prepared and kept to bear our Savior, and when her earthly time was finished, her pristine person was assumed into heaven.

Where are all those 'rapture' folks in the "End Times" thread when you need them?

It almost seems to be a contradiction in position. I believe that God made sure that many saints' remains were hidden, but I don't believe in the assumption of Mary. Neither one is provable.

Anywho...come pre-tribbers!!!

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ORIGINAL: kielbasa

Yes, but Peter was quoting Scripture that said "no one has ascended to heaven except He who has come down from heaven" to use as a proof text that Mary could not possibly have been assumed.

If what he is using is "proof", he is ignoring Enoch and Elijah.

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ORIGINAL: kielbasa

Hello, Peter.

Where is Enoch? Where is Elijah?

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ORIGINAL: Heavendweller

Hello Folks,

I'm new on this thread. Sometimes I think that Protestants can go to one extreme so as not to resemble Roman Catholics in any respect. With that said, I think that Roman Catholics can go to extremes in assuming far too much and taking that greeeaaat leap of faith, when it isn't necessary.

At the risk of beating a dead horse, since I'm sure I will probably be redundant here, I will give my take on this dogma. The fact that many sincere Roman Catholics believed in the assumption of Mary prior to the dogmatic proclamation by the Pope in 1950, is not a reason to bind the conscience of all R.C. by requiring that this dogma is necessary to be believed for one's salvation. When the Pope proclaimed this dogma excathedra, the option to believe or not to believe in Mary's assumtion was no longer permitted. Every Roman Catholic was REQUIRED to believe or their salvation was at risk.

Think about that for a moment, if you will. In proclaiming this dogma excathedra, the Pope was saying that the bodily assumption of Mary can be and must be believed as much as the bodily resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ. Now that the bodily assumption of Mary is no longer just a teaching but a dogma necessary to believed for one's salvation, there is no room to even question or have the freedom to disagree. By this, the Roman Catholic Church is declaring that the bodily assumption of Mary is as worthy to be believed in, and is exactly on par with our Lord's ascension.

Not only is there no explicit scriptural proof for Mary's assumption, there is no historical proof. Eusebius, and even Josephus, a Jewish historian in Christ's day, never mentioned anything about Mary's assumption. The Early Church Fathers in the first few centuries are SILENT on this matter as well. And even when there were some who began to spread this belief, they were not in the majority. There is no unanimous consent of the Early Church Fathers confirming this dogma. The book of Acts makes it clear that we can trust in our Lord's ascension, as well as the writings of historians in that day. However, scripture AND history for the first few centuries are completely SILENT regarding the bodily assumption of Mary.

It is one thing to say that there were many Catholics who believed throughout the centuries that Mary had been assumed into Heaven. It is quite another to take the giant leap that because many believed this, therefore we must make it a necessary dogma of the Roman Catholic faith binding on their consciences.

One other thing to consider. Just because one can refer to a Church Father here or there within the 4th Century who believed in Mary's bodily assumption, does not justify making it dogma. St. Thomas Aquinas, one of the most influential Roman Catholic theologians of all time, did not believe in the Immaculate Conception. Yet, this is also a dogma of the R.C. Church.

Mary is blessed among women for she carried our Blessed Savior in her womb. By her fiat, she submitted herself to God and risked rejection and even death. We can learn much about her example, but we will never know what happened to her body until we are in Christ's Heavenly Kingdom.

In Jesus' Love,
HD

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Mary is blessed among women for she carried our Blessed Savior in her womb. By her fiat, she submitted herself to God and risked rejection and even death. We can learn much about her example, but we will never know what happened to her body until we are in Christ's Heavenly Kingdom.

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To believe otherwise is to cast doubt on the efficacy of grace, the ability of humans to be saved, the viability of humans for the destination of heaven, and perhaps even to question just what heaven is.

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ORIGINAL: Heavendweller
Aren't St. Paul the Apostle's words from Sacred Scripture enough for you to believe that your body will be raised incorruptable? The viability of humans to be destined for Heaven comes from our Lord Jesus' words "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live. And whoever lives and believes in me will never die." and, "For this is the will of my Father, that every one who sees the Son and believes in Him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." St. John 6:40 Jesus' promise is enough to assure me that He has the power to raise my body from the grave and change it into a body like His, where I will dwell in His Heavenly Kingdom forever. In other words, if Jesus said it, that's good enough for me!

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ORIGINAL: XianJedi

From what I've heard (which may indeed be wrong), the assumption of Mary is based on the assumption (pun intended ) that she was sinless. Death is the penalty for sin, and since Mary didn't sin (RCC view), then she didn't die.

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ORIGINAL: uncleb
To say she was without sin is presumptuous and unbiblical.

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ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher

We are conformed more to Christ than Mary.

We have participated in Christ's death !

Mary is lacking this vital area.


We are united in Jesus' death and resurrection !

Mary did not partake in the suffering of Christ by

conformity to Jesus' death. We are more like Christ.

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ORIGINAL: sdaw

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ORIGINAL: ToolmanUF "I'm not. But in the past the Catholic Church has claimed that there is no salvation outside of it. That all Christians on earth "must be subject to the Roman Pontiff." If Catholics are to be consistent with their church's declarations, then they must believe that all Christians should believe in the Assumption - otherwise risking the danger of anathema." The Catholic Church does indeed teach that "Outside of the Catholic Church there is no salvation", it always has and always will. But, it is important to undestand what exactly it means by that. If you read the Catechism and the Vatican II documents you will see that is makes it quite clear that other people are in some type of communion with the Catholic Church, such as other Christians and even those people who don't yet know Christ but try to please God in the best way that they know according to the conscience. Catholics believe that these people are in some way connecting to them and thus can also achieve salvation. Catholics believe that God won't deny salvation to somebody who seriously was trying to please him. So, while they do believe that the Catholic Church was the only method started by God, through Jesus Christ, to unite humanity and provide salvation, they also recognize the many elements of truth and goodness seen in all religions and people and believe that they can be saved also (Protestants, Jews, Muslims etc). To answer your question: the Catholic Church does teach that the Assumption of Mary and the Papacy are revealed dogmas from God and are thus normally required for salvation, but they don't believe that that means that God won't allow other people into his Kingdom. God can let anybody he wants to into heaven, it's His right! So, if you thoroughly studied Catholic dogma you really can't say that Catholics believe that only those who submit to the Pope will be saved, their beliefs are much deeper than that. In fact, I think you will find that the Catholics actually have a vey compassionate way of looking at and understanding the different faiths of the world and, as John Paul II said, realizing that what unites us as humans is greater than what divides us.

Dear ToolmanUF, Here is a quote from Munificentissimus Deus. ". Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith. 46. In order that this, our definition of the bodily Assumption of the Virgin Mary into heaven may be brought to the attention of the universal Church, we desire that this, our Apostolic Letter, should stand for perpetual remembrance, commanding that written copies of it, or even printed copies, signed by the hand of any public notary and bearing the seal of a person constituted in ecclesiastical dignity, should be accorded by all men the same reception they would give to this present letter, were it tendered or shown. 47. It is forbidden to any man to change this, our declaration, pronouncement, and definition or, by rash attempt, to oppose and counter it. If any man should presume to make such an attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul. 48. Given at Rome, at St. Peter's, in the year of the great Jubilee, 1950, on the first day of the month of November, on the Feast of All Saints, in the twelfth year of our pontificate. I, PIUS, Bishop of the Catholic Church, have signed, so defining. " To be a Catholic, and to knowingly and willfully deny the Assumption is to commit heresy, and fall away from the faith. This is not only because one denies this dogma, but because one implicitly denies the power of the Church of infallibly teach Truth. To do this implicitly denies the promise of Christ to remain with His Church. For a Protestant, or even a poorly instructed Catholic, it is possible, or even likely that he denies this dogma out of invincible ignorance, not willful rejection. His culpability is diminished, or even eliminated. On the Feast of St. Mark the Evangelist Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!