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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/26/2008 11:16:52 AM
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authorcrat
Posts: 54
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Jet_A_Jockey
the assumption of mary, from an outside perspective, looks to be the end of a line of doctrine created to explain one simple question: How could the Holy Son of God come to earth in an earthly (fallen) vessel?
And tada, here ya have it, immaculate conception which leads to sinless nature which leads to perpetual virginity which leads to bodily assumption into heaven
Fill in the blanks with some non-canonical filler and there you have it.
God bless.
The Assumption of Mary has its roots from the early Church, it is not some late invention of the 20th Century. It is wild conspiracy theory that it was invented to support the Immaculate Conception and Perpetual Virginity, it was an inevitable conclusion to those Catholic doctrines.
You may not agree with what the Catholic Church teaches, which is fine. You may feel that you are better informed, and formed, than the early Church Fathers who were closer to the Apostles’ era and have more access to ancient documents, which is also fine. But maybe it is better to be properly equipped with the facts before shooting from the hips. It makes for a better debate.
From the 5th Century:
The Feast of the Assumption of Mary was celebrated in Syria;
The 5th and 6th Century:
The Apocryphal Books were testimony of a certain Christian sense of the abhorency felt that the body of the Mother of God should lie in a sepulchre;
The 6th Century:
The Feast of the Assumption was celebrated in Jerusalem (and perhaps even in Alexandria);
From the 7th Century:
Clear and explicit testimony was given on the Assumption of Mary in the Eastern Church; The same testimony is clear also in the Western Church (Gregory, Tours, 538-594);
In the 9th Century:
The Feast of the Assumption was celebrated in Spain;
From the 10th - 12th Century:
No dispute whatsoever in the Western Church; there was dispute over the false epistles of Jerome on the subject;
In the 12th Century:
The Feast of the Assumption was celebrated in the city of Rome, and in France;
From the 13th to present:
Certain and undisputed faith in the Assumption of Mary in the universal Church;
1950, Pope Pius XII, declared infallibly, ex cathedra:
"Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul to heavenly glory."
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/28/2008 12:22:57 PM
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Papa-san
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There's no 'proof' included here. Your earliest mention here is 400+/- years after the last of those who were there would have died...
Not much into manuscript evidence, are you?
There's a reason the Apocryphal texts weren't included into what God claims as his word: They aren't completely factual...
I could write whatever I want to about something that might have happened in 1600... There's no-one from then to deny it isn't true...
You haven't shown any proof... Don't make the claim...
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"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/28/2008 4:04:32 PM
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authorcrat
Posts: 54
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
There's no 'proof' included here. Your earliest mention here is 400+/- years after the last of those who were there would have died...
Not much into manuscript evidence, are you?
There's a reason the Apocryphal texts weren't included into what God claims as his word: They aren't completely factual...
I could write whatever I want to about something that might have happened in 1600... There's no-one from then to deny it isn't true...
You haven't shown any proof... Don't make the claim...
So, give me your proof.
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/28/2008 8:22:16 PM
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Papa-san
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My 'proof' is that the Bible doesn't even imply that Mary was assumed into Heaven.
GOD says that the Bible is His word, so it isn't His responsibility (or mine) to prove something that He never mentions. My contention is that He is who He says He is, He didn't include this in His Word, and I am not arguing with Him in the least. You and your Church are saying something happened that isn't mentioned in His word. The burden of proof is yours, and as yet, that is unmet...
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"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/28/2008 9:44:15 PM
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Doc65
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Ok, to be honest, I didn't slog my way through the previous 12+ pages, but the closest that I could find with regard to the Assumption/Dormition of Mary was the "Transitus Mariae" an apocryphal work ascribed to St. John the Evangelist and generally dated in the 4th or 5th century; and a homily written by John of Damascus, "On the Holy and Glorious Dormition and Transformation of Our Lady Mary, Mother of God and Ever-Virgin", dated in the 7th century. There doesn't seem to be any truly orthodox textual witnesses with regard to the dormition/assumption. Where does such a belief come from, as I am at a loss....
_____________________________
"The Sovereign Lord is my strength; He makes my feet like the feet of a deer, He enables me to go on the heights." Hab. 3:19
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/29/2008 12:23:09 AM
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martyfran
Posts: 525
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
My 'proof' is that the Bible doesn't even imply that Mary was assumed into Heaven.
GOD says that the Bible is His word,
Of course, the bible never claims to be the sole rule of faith.
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/29/2008 5:19:08 AM
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Jet_A_Jockey
Posts: 34
Joined: 4/9/2008
From: pensacola florid
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quote:
ORIGINAL: authorcrat
The Assumption of Mary has its roots from the early Church, it is not some late invention of the 20th Century. It is wild conspiracy theory that it was invented to support the Immaculate Conception and Perpetual Virginity, it was an inevitable conclusion to those Catholic doctrines.
I never said it was a late invention, I know when it was first brought about. It is rather interesting when comparing the dating between these doctrine/dogma and the dating of the texts used to support them. You say inevitable conclusion, I say its a line of doctrine branched off from a faulty original doctrine, and then embellished and backed by very late, not even remotely canon-worthy scripture. We just have to disagree my friend.
quote:
You may not agree with what the Catholic Church teaches, which is fine. thanks :)
quote:
[You may feel that you are better informed, and formed, than the early Church Fathers who were closer to the Apostles’ era and have more access to ancient documents, which is also fine. This line of defense gets pulled every time I question doctrine, I never once assumed I am better formed, or informed, but rather my conscience cannot let me hold the darkness up as light. It's not that I cannot trust a teacher, but an institution, which has been known in the past to do shady things, I am wary of. When a religious institution becomes blended in with a governing authority, with the ability to 'speak for Christ', its easy to see how their agenda may waiver from its original intent. Indulgences anyone?
quote:
But maybe it is better to be properly equipped with the facts before shooting from the hips. It makes for a better debate.
From the 5th Century:
The Feast of the Assumption of Mary was celebrated in Syria;
The 5th and 6th Century:
The Apocryphal Books were testimony of a certain Christian sense of the abhorency felt that the body of the Mother of God should lie in a sepulchre;
The 6th Century:
The Feast of the Assumption was celebrated in Jerusalem (and perhaps even in Alexandria);
From the 7th Century:
Clear and explicit testimony was given on the Assumption of Mary in the Eastern Church; The same testimony is clear also in the Western Church (Gregory, Tours, 538-594);
In the 9th Century:
The Feast of the Assumption was celebrated in Spain;
From the 10th - 12th Century:
No dispute whatsoever in the Western Church; there was dispute over the false epistles of Jerome on the subject;
In the 12th Century:
The Feast of the Assumption was celebrated in the city of Rome, and in France;
From the 13th to present:
Certain and undisputed faith in the Assumption of Mary in the universal Church;
1950, Pope Pius XII, declared infallibly, ex cathedra:
"Mary, having completed the course of her earthly life, was assumed body and soul to heavenly glory."
this does nothing other than support my theory. It's interesting however how the term 'early church fathers' is tossed around.
God bless!
< Message edited by Jet_A_Jockey -- 4/29/2008 5:27:54 AM >
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And I don't care what they say, if what you need is your faith, then take a look in my face and know...
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/30/2008 8:54:54 AM
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Doc65
Posts: 277
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quote:
It's interesting however how the term 'early church fathers' is tossed around.
Probably because there is no scriptural evidence to support this idea...
The early church fathers were/are good for reference and to help find out how the early church did things but they are not the final authority...
Sola scriptura, sola fides...
_____________________________
"The Sovereign Lord is my strength; He makes my feet like the feet of a deer, He enables me to go on the heights." Hab. 3:19
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/30/2008 9:19:07 AM
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martyfran
Posts: 525
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Doc65
quote:
The early church fathers were/are good for reference and to help find out how the early church did things but they are not the final authority...
Sola scriptura, sola fides...
I hate to break it to you, but the bible doesn't teach sola scriptura.
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/30/2008 5:33:33 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1107
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I hate to break it to you that it doesn't teach that Mary was assumed into Heaven, either. In fact, in several places, scripture teaches specifically that this actually cannot be an option...
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"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/30/2008 7:35:34 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 525
Joined: 7/17/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
I hate to break it to you that it doesn't teach that Mary was assumed into Heaven, either. In fact, in several places, scripture teaches specifically that this actually cannot be an option...
Are you saying that it is impossible that Mary was assumed into heaven?
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/30/2008 10:06:30 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 732
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Silver Spring, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
I hate to break it to you that it doesn't teach that Mary was assumed into Heaven, either. In fact, in several places, scripture teaches specifically that this actually cannot be an option...
Don't tell that to Elijah.
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 5/1/2008 10:22:50 AM
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Catholicandloveit
Posts: 228
Joined: 1/3/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
I hate to break it to you that it doesn't teach that Mary was assumed into Heaven, either. In fact, in several places, scripture teaches specifically that this actually cannot be an option...
Not an option for Mary or not at all?
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Blessed be Jesus in the Most Holy Sacrament of the Altar
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 5/1/2008 11:15:12 AM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1107
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Sorry, I answered quicker thann I should have... What I should have said is this:
It doesn't say it was impossible, as we have proof that there have been people assumed into heaven. What I am saying is that there was no scriptural justification for Mary to be assumed in a similar fashion. I believe that something as spectacular as an heavenly assumption would have been included in His word.
Your church uses different sources for creating it's beliefs, so you are perfectly welcome to believe this happened to her. I believe that God gave us His written word to supply us with all we need to know about Him and what He does. As a result, I cannot agree that this happened to her because there is no evidence in His word to support it. The times it did happen were pretty spectacular, and they were included as a result.
Unlike Catholicism, I don't find that the lack of a specific exclusion is acceptable proof that we can build a belief system around that particular void. "Scripture doesn't say that she could NOT be assumed into Heaven, so that gives us permission to say she was."
It just doesn't work for me... There is no proof that it did happen and there is no proof that it didn't... I shall wait until I am there to ask if it did happen, but until then, it's foolhardy to believe that it did...
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 5/1/2008 11:23:47 AM >
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 5/1/2008 12:18:50 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 496
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Hello!
I will say my opinion on the Assumption of Mary. Seriously, I don't think she's assumed, since thre is no biblical OR archaeological evidence for this. Seriously, the Catholics don't even have an idea of where she was buried. So in my opinion, I think God buried her body Himself, kindof like what he did to Moses.
I will prove that the Catholics don't even have an idea of where she was buried.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14774a.htm
There are 5 different places the article speaks of where she could've been buried. Valley of Cedron near Jerusalem, Ephesus, Jerusalem, Gethsamane, and valley of Josaphat. How could Mary's body be buried in 5 different places? Obviously, the only conclusion I can come to is that God buried her Himself, in the same manner as He did with Moses.
For God to bury her Himself is a very special honor. The only obvious reason for God burying her is that she is the Theotokos (Mother of God).
Maybe God does not want anyone to know where Mary is.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
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And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 5/1/2008 6:01:56 PM
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Doghouse
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quote:
Maybe God does not want anyone to know where Mary is. This is a hypothesis - how is it tested?
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 5/1/2008 6:06:05 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1107
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How is the hypothesis that she was assumed into Heaven tested?
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 5/1/2008 7:48:44 PM
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martyfran
Posts: 525
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
How is the hypothesis that she was assumed into Heaven tested?
By the pillar and foundation of truth.
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 5/1/2008 8:11:15 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 496
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
How is the hypothesis that she was assumed into Heaven tested?
By the pillar and foundation of truth.
Hello martyfran!
Seriously, if you looked at the article on New Advent, which is a Catholic site, you will get the impression that THEY don't even know where Mary's body was laid.
Seriously, I believe God buried Mary Himself and, the reason why we don't know where she is laid.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 5/1/2008 9:42:33 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1107
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quote:
ORIGINAL: martyfran
quote:
ORIGINAL: Papa-san
How is the hypothesis that she was assumed into Heaven tested?
By the pillar and foundation of truth.
I don't know if you have looked at the last page of posts in the "Praying to the saints and Mary" thread, but if this is the same pillar of truth that came up with that idea, you need to seriously re-think your position... It may be a 2,000 year old pillar, but the whole "truth" part is evidently missing...
_____________________________
"Discernment demands that we should hold biblical convictions with the most fervent tenacity" John MacArthur
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 5/2/2008 9:23:04 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3569
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
Seriously, if you looked at the article on New Advent, which is a Catholic site, you will get the impression that THEY don't even know where Mary's body was laid. Pardon my ignorance, but if Mary was assumed into heaven, wouldn't there be no body to bury? (like Elijah or Enoch)
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 5/2/2008 1:18:55 PM
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Lurker
Posts: 732
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From: Silver Spring, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
Seriously, if you looked at the article on New Advent, which is a Catholic site, you will get the impression that THEY don't even know where Mary's body was laid. Pardon my ignorance, but if Mary was assumed into heaven, wouldn't there be no body to bury? (like Elijah or Enoch)
Exactly.
There's debate whether she reposed and then was assumed into Heaven, or whether she was taken up prior to reposing. But both the East and West agree that she was taken into heaven.
It's interesting to note that while many early Christians went to great pains to find the tombs of the early martyrs, apostles, and great Christian teachers in order to pay homage to their heroes of the faith, they didn't bother to do that with Mary. Perhaps this was because they knew that her tomb wasn't to be found at all. And indeed, we can see that the Lord did make at least two exceptions in the past (the holy prophet Elijah and Enoch), why is it so hard to believe that an exception would be made for the very mother of Jesus?
_____________________________
Do not be afraid of Christ! He takes nothing away, and he gives you everything. When we give ourselves to him, we receive a hundredfold in return. Yes, open, open wide the doors to Christ—and you will find true life.
-Pope Benedict XVI
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 5/2/2008 10:24:35 PM
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JesKlu
Posts: 496
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: JesKlu
Seriously, if you looked at the article on New Advent, which is a Catholic site, you will get the impression that THEY don't even know where Mary's body was laid. Pardon my ignorance, but if Mary was assumed into heaven, wouldn't there be no body to bury? (like Elijah or Enoch)
Yeah, but no one knows where Moses's body is either, yet he was not assumed into heaven. His body was buried personally by God (look in the book of deuteronomy).
And plus, there is no written evidence. For Enoch and Elijah there is.
Your sister in Christ Jesus,
Jessica
_____________________________
And calling to him a child, he put him in the midst of them and said, "Truly, I say to you, unless you turn and become like children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 5/2/2008 10:36:08 PM
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Papa-san
Posts: 1107
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Lurker
But both the East and West agree that she was taken into heaven.
It's interesting to note that while many early Christians went to great pains to find the tombs of the early martyrs, apostles, and great Christian teachers in order to pay homage to their heroes of the faith, they didn't bother to do that with Mary. Perhaps this was because they knew that her tomb wasn't to be found at all.
Perhaps they DID go looking for her remains and this simply wasn't newsworthy enough for God to
include their searches in scripture? She isn't like God, so she can only fully grasp the extent of the problems she had herself become aware of...
Does scripture say this somewhere? I must have missed it!
< Message edited by Papa-san -- 5/2/2008 10:45:12 PM >
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