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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/21/2005 12:28:24 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: catherwood
Dear Sdaw,
Thanks for the response! 
I should probably be more clear. I am not talking about man as he is a work of creation of God or as a new creation in grace. I am talking about man as he is since the fall in and of himself. Mary was a very godly woman. Her prayers and actions as recorded in Scripture are worthy of our diligent study and imitation. But to push her beyond something that God has done in His goodness is to push her beyond the limits of what we should and what the word of God does. Believing that she never died and went straight to heaven when Scripture says nothing about it - or - teaching about her as someone to be prayed to and hence to be worshiped (because inherent in the definition of the word 'prayer' is the idea of worship) is to elevate her to a position that raises her and lowers God. That is what I was saying. I mustn't have been clear enough in what I was saying.
God bless, keep and lead you in Christ,
Catherwood
Dear Catherwood,
That is just the point. We are not pushing her beyond what God has done for her in His grace, but rather recognized what He has done for her, and what He will do for us.
Whether or not Mary died is an open question. I think she did. The Church takes no position. We believe, that, at the end of her earthly life, she was taken body and soul into Heaven. It is the destiny which awaits all believers. Scripture never claims to say everthing. It is unscriptural to reject something just because it is not in the Bible.
Prayer does not necessarily worship. Many Christians pray to the Blessed Virgin and to the saint, but they do not worship them. To claim that prayer means worship is a deficiency of definition.
God bless you as well!
On the Feast of St. Anselm
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints.
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/21/2005 3:16:44 PM
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GoodME
Posts: 120
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: majorsizemore
The CC says that a good Catholic must hold to every single doctrine they teach--biblical or extra-biblical--to even have a chance at salvation. (is that correct?)
No, not exactly.
Faith is defined for us by Jesus and its instruction and practice are for our benefit as we journey through our lives seeking a relationship with God.
So, the doctrines are their to benefit this walk with God and to be used in this process. By electing not to follow doctrine, we are ignoring help and assistance by those practices which may beneficial to support our desire to be with God and to do as He has instructed.
Bearing ths in mind, if we "ignore doctrine" and we profess "desire to be with God" - one or the other of those actions is a fallacy. Either, we don't accept the dcotrine to be from and of God (like a good Muslim would), or we really don't want to be with God if it causes inconvenience or too greatly impacts our lifestyle.
In order to "have a chance at Salvation", one must accept Faith and believe that Jesus was the example for us to live in relationship with God and that He justified we people before God by His death. One must believe that living in Faith with hope and reflecting the effectiveness of that Faith on self by practicing charity, is the route to salvation.
Beyond that - you are talking "Sanctification" - the receipt of Grace and the becoming a holy person. This is where you begin to get into a "purgatory" discussion for the souls of the Faithful, whose practice was less than full, given their abilities.
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/21/2005 6:05:41 PM
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bridgefin
Posts: 137
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Boca Raton, FL
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quote:
Ah George, it's a good thing I never tire of debating you,
You're a good sport to put up with losing so much and still coming back for more!  Sorry, I couldn't resist. I do enjoy our encounters here and let truth win out in the end.
quote:
Because Scripture is the God-breathed revelation, while non-scripture is not. We trust the express Word of God, not the word of man-only.
That is your belief and what you just said is not writtem in Scripture. It is a non-Scriptural belief. Don't you see the irony here?
quote:
But we're talking about doctrines which bind the conscience of all Christians.
Since when does a non-Catholic Christian feel bound by the doctrines/dogmas of the Catholic Church? There are doctrines far more clearly defined in Scripture that you don't accept so what's the big deal about this one?
quote:
The Catholic Church has declared that the Assumption is a belief that is absolutely binding on believers.
Yes, it has been revealed by God and has the same wieght as Scripture.
quote:
We hold that there is absolutely no reason to elevate such a belief to so high a position. We believe that there is no historical or biblical reason to believe that it even happened.
So, don't believe it. Who is holding your feet to the fire on this?
quote:
The CC says that a good Catholic must hold to every single doctrine they teach--biblical or extra-biblical--to even have a chance at salvation. (is that correct?)
Not in those terms. What it does teach is that God has revealed Hmself in Scripture and we interpret Scripture in the light of the Spirit of Truth who Jesus promised would lead the Church in Truth and be with it forever. If that Church established by God teaches something, you have the same obligation to follow and consent to it as if it came from the mouth of God. It did, just via a different route.
quote:
Protestantism teaches that salvation does not depend on the vastness of our knowledge - but on the vastness of God's grace. Our salvation -- in the sense of our one-time justification and forgiveness of our sins -- does not rest on our knowledge an acceptance of each and every particular doctrine. It rests on our personal trust in Jesus Christ as our savior and redeemer. We are saved by faith, not by knowledge.
You don't have to believe that Jesus came and died for our sins? You don't have to accept what you believe Scripture teaches? I disagree. And, you can't know Jesus if you have no love for the truth. If you trust Jesus you will trust His Church. There is no body of Protestant doctrine which is incumbant of believers to consent to. Yea, yea, I know, Scripture is. But Scripture does not innerantly convey its doctrines to anyone, believers included. The major difference between us is that we have a God-given guide to interpret the Word of God and the result is doctrinal unity. You don't and the result is denominations. God opted for unity. Dang, I won another one!!!
In Christ, George
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/24/2005 4:07:51 PM
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JaredMeister
Posts: 208
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Indiana
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quote:
quote:
Because Scripture is the God-breathed revelation, while non-scripture is not. We trust the express Word of God, not the word of man-only.
That is your belief and what you just said is not writtem in Scripture. It is a non-Scriptural belief. Don't you see the irony here?
George...you're baffling me a bit. Not written in scripture? 2 Timothy 3 says that scripture is GOD-BREATHED. Theopneustos. Scripture is fundamentally different from other writings. Prots and Caths agree that there is such a thing as "Scripture", correct? And this scripture is distinct from mere human writings. We do not deny of course that men wrote the Bible, but God inspired these human-writings to be his expressed written Word. "It is written...."
quote:
But we're talking about doctrines which bind the conscience of all Christians.
Since when does a non-Catholic Christian feel bound by the doctrines/dogmas of the Catholic Church?
I'm not. But in the past the Catholic Church has claimed that there is no salvation outside of it. That all Christians on earth "must be subject to the Roman Pontiff." If Catholics are to be consistent with their church's declarations, then they must believe that all Christians should believe in the Assumption - otherwise risking the danger of anathema.
quote:
There are doctrines far more clearly defined in Scripture that you don't accept
Nice try.  That's your opinion of course. I should say that I sincerely want to believe every doctrine clearly taught in scripture.
quote:
so what's the big deal about this one?
That's a fair question. Firstly, it's "a big deal" simply because it is the subject of this thread. Secondly, we think the Assumption is an idea borne out of the over-emphasis placed on Mary. We believe Mary was a wonderful women - but we think an entire mythology has developed around her that would shock even her. People don't normally have their bodies float up to heaven upon death and it would take a lot of good evidence to convince me.
And, unless I'm wrong, belief in the Assumption is much easier and even logical if you already accept all the other Marian doctrines. It is a belief built upon presuppositions and "assumptions" if you will.
quote:
quote:
The Catholic Church has declared that the Assumption is a belief that is absolutely binding on believers.
Yes, it has been revealed by God and has the same wieght as Scripture.
Okay, I have a sincere question here. If a Catholic (for whatever reason) does not believe in a doctrine such as the Assumption, can he or she be saved?
quote:
You don't have to believe that Jesus came and died for our sins?
Uh...no. I thought it was implicit in my answer that you should believe this. My point was that God does not hold us responsible for understanding perfectly each and every particular doctrine to be saved - otherwise no one would be saved because no one has exhaustive knowledge of God's revelation.
quote:
You don't have to accept what you believe Scripture teaches? I disagree.
George, I would think you know Prot doctrine good enough by now to not ask goofy questions like that. I think I've explained this. Yes, we should obey all Scripture. But our one-time gift of salvation does not depend on it.
quote:
And, you can't know Jesus if you have no love for the truth. If you trust Jesus you will trust His Church.
I love the church. And I "trust" the church, but the church isn't God. I trust God differently. You trust your spouse, right? But you don't trust her the same way you trust God.
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There is no body of Protestant doctrine which is incumbant of believers to consent to.
The Westminster Confession is pretty good. But even that is subject to Scripture.
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But Scripture does not innerantly convey its doctrines to anyone, believers included.
So God is not able to communicate clearly? You know, Jesus said to Peter, "What if I want John to remain alive until I come back, what is that to you?" So a rumor spread that John would not die. People misinterpreted Jesus' words. Does that mean that Jesus is fallible? Imperfect hearers create an imperfect source? This is the flaw of Catholic attacks on sola scriptura. They believe that because the interpreters disagree, then it must be the source's fault. That is a classic logical fallacy.
quote:
The major difference between us is that we have a God-given guide to interpret the Word of God and the result is doctrinal unity.
And the fact is, there is not perfect "unity" in the CC. Okay, they are all "subject to the Pope." But they still disagree. How is this possible? Are the church's decrees not clear enough? All the Pope has to do is declare the truth of a matter and the case should be closed. Individual Catholics disagree on all kinds of matters. That must prove that the source -- the CC -- is fallible, right? This is the same logic you apply to Protestantism.
quote:
You don't and the result is denominations.
The result is the glorious gospel of free grace bringing spiritual freedom to millions more souls! Praise the Lord. And in my own language no less! Organizational disunity is worth the spiritual salvation and sanctification of multitudes.
quote:
God opted for unity.
We will only have perfect unity in Heaven. I don't see the Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox, and the Indian, Syrian, Ethiopian, and Russian churches as one big happy family.
_____________________________
~ Jared
"I find your lack of faith disturbing."
-- Darth Vader
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/25/2005 5:35:51 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sadiebelle
quote:
ORIGINAL: sdaw
Dear Catherwood,
Scripture never claims to say everthing. It is unscriptural to reject something just because it is not in the Bible.
It's unscriptural to believe something that cannot be backed with any kind of Scriptural foundation. The assumption of Mary is something that has clearly been "added" to what the Bible's final words about Mary are. Therefore, to reasonably, logically, "assume" what happened to her past what we know for a fact to be true, is speculation.
Dear Catherwood,
Not really. It could be a matter of historical fact. We believe that we will all be in Heave, body and soul. There is a scriptural foundation.
On the Feast of St. Mark the Evangelist
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/25/2005 6:40:50 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 119
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
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"I'm not. But in the past the Catholic Church has claimed that there is no salvation outside of it. That all Christians on earth "must be subject to the Roman Pontiff." If Catholics are to be consistent with their church's declarations, then they must believe that all Christians should believe in the Assumption - otherwise risking the danger of anathema."
The Catholic Church does indeed teach that "Outside of the Catholic Church there is no salvation", it always has and always will. But, it is important to undestand what exactly it means by that. If you read the Catechism and the Vatican II documents you will see that is makes it quite clear that other people are in some type of communion with the Catholic Church, such as other Christians and even those people who don't yet know Christ but try to please God in the best way that they know according to the conscience. Catholics believe that these people are in some way connecting to them and thus can also achieve salvation. Catholics believe that God won't deny salvation to somebody who seriously was trying to please him. So, while they do believe that the Catholic Church was the only method started by God, through Jesus Christ, to unite humanity and provide salvation, they also recognize the many elements of truth and goodness seen in all religions and people and believe that they can be saved also (Protestants, Jews, Muslims etc).
To answer your question: the Catholic Church does teach that the Assumption of Mary and the Papacy are revealed dogmas from God and are thus normally required for salvation, but they don't believe that that means that God won't allow other people into his Kingdom. God can let anybody he wants to into heaven, it's His right! So, if you thoroughly studied Catholic dogma you really can't say that Catholics believe that only those who submit to the Pope will be saved, their beliefs are much deeper than that. In fact, I think you will find that the Catholics actually have a vey compassionate way of looking at and understanding the different faiths of the world and, as John Paul II said, realizing that what unites us as humans is greater than what divides us.
< Message edited by ToolmanUF -- 4/25/2005 6:43:28 PM >
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/25/2005 9:25:04 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ToolmanUF
"I'm not. But in the past the Catholic Church has claimed that there is no salvation outside of it. That all Christians on earth "must be subject to the Roman Pontiff." If Catholics are to be consistent with their church's declarations, then they must believe that all Christians should believe in the Assumption - otherwise risking the danger of anathema."
The Catholic Church does indeed teach that "Outside of the Catholic Church there is no salvation", it always has and always will. But, it is important to undestand what exactly it means by that. If you read the Catechism and the Vatican II documents you will see that is makes it quite clear that other people are in some type of communion with the Catholic Church, such as other Christians and even those people who don't yet know Christ but try to please God in the best way that they know according to the conscience. Catholics believe that these people are in some way connecting to them and thus can also achieve salvation. Catholics believe that God won't deny salvation to somebody who seriously was trying to please him. So, while they do believe that the Catholic Church was the only method started by God, through Jesus Christ, to unite humanity and provide salvation, they also recognize the many elements of truth and goodness seen in all religions and people and believe that they can be saved also (Protestants, Jews, Muslims etc).
To answer your question: the Catholic Church does teach that the Assumption of Mary and the Papacy are revealed dogmas from God and are thus normally required for salvation, but they don't believe that that means that God won't allow other people into his Kingdom. God can let anybody he wants to into heaven, it's His right! So, if you thoroughly studied Catholic dogma you really can't say that Catholics believe that only those who submit to the Pope will be saved, their beliefs are much deeper than that. In fact, I think you will find that the Catholics actually have a vey compassionate way of looking at and understanding the different faiths of the world and, as John Paul II said, realizing that what unites us as humans is greater than what divides us.
Dear ToolmanUF,
Here is a quote from Munificentissimus Deus. ". Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.
46. In order that this, our definition of the bodily Assumption of the Virgin Mary into heaven may be brought to the attention of the universal Church, we desire that this, our Apostolic Letter, should stand for perpetual remembrance, commanding that written copies of it, or even printed copies, signed by the hand of any public notary and bearing the seal of a person constituted in ecclesiastical dignity, should be accorded by all men the same reception they would give to this present letter, were it tendered or shown.
47. It is forbidden to any man to change this, our declaration, pronouncement, and definition or, by rash attempt, to oppose and counter it. If any man should presume to make such an attempt, let him know that he will incur the wrath of Almighty God and of the Blessed Apostles Peter and Paul.
48. Given at Rome, at St. Peter's, in the year of the great Jubilee, 1950, on the first day of the month of November, on the Feast of All Saints, in the twelfth year of our pontificate.
I, PIUS, Bishop of the Catholic Church, have signed, so defining. "
To be a Catholic, and to knowingly and willfully deny the Assumption is to commit heresy, and fall away from the faith. This is not only because one denies this dogma, but because one implicitly denies the power of the Church of infallibly teach Truth. To do this implicitly denies the promise of Christ to remain with His Church. For a Protestant, or even a poorly instructed Catholic, it is possible, or even likely that he denies this dogma out of invincible ignorance, not willful rejection. His culpability is diminished, or even eliminated.
On the Feast of St. Mark the Evangelist
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/26/2005 8:55:34 AM
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bridgefin
Posts: 137
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Boca Raton, FL
Status: offline
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Jared, sorry for the delay in responding. Originally I had said:
quote:
But where does Scripture tell you that all doctrine must be found in Scripture? If it doesn't then you have invented a non-Scriptural belief. And why is it OK for you to hold you unScriptural belief and not us? It appears to be hypocrisy on the surface...how many frills do I need to not make that sound too direct?
To which you replied:
quote:
Because Scripture is the God-breathed revelation, while non-scripture is not. We trust the express Word of God, not the word of man-only.
Leaving me to say:
quote:
That is your belief and what you just said is not writtem in Scripture. It is a non-Scriptural belief. Don't you see the irony here?
Leaving you baffled:
quote:
George...you're baffling me a bit. Not written in scripture? 2 Timothy 3 says that scripture is GOD-BREATHED. Theopneustos. Scripture is fundamentally different from other writings. Prots and Caths agree that there is such a thing as "Scripture", correct? And this scripture is distinct from mere human writings. We do not deny of course that men wrote the Bible, but God inspired these human-writings to be his expressed written Word. "It is written...."
O let me try to unbaffle you. The canon of Scripture is not written in Scripture. Is it then, the word of man and not of God? Jesus spoke, he did not write. When He spoke was He speaking with the Word of God? He is the very Word of God. When He sent Apostles out to preach He said that whoever heard you heard me. The Apostles preached the Word of God when the preached and not just when some of them wrote. The Word of God certainly comes to us in ways that do not originate in Scripture.
Thus, your statement: "Because Scripture is the God-breathed revelation, while non-scripture is not." is not only false, it is unScriptural. Do you not see the irony in your making up an unScriptural statement to attack the Assumption of Mary which you say is unScriptural. As a result I will assume that you have no problem in making up doctrines that are not found in Scripture so please don't use this argument against us.
My point remains: Where does Scripture, and not your traditions, state that all doctrines must be found in Scripture?
In Christ, George
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/26/2005 12:07:38 PM
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JaredMeister
Posts: 208
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Indiana
Status: offline
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quote:
My point remains: Where does Scripture, and not your traditions, state that all doctrines must be found in Scripture?
George, I believe it's been explained, you just don't accept our explanation.
It's probably painfully obvious that there is a huge fundamental difference between the Catholic and Protestant understandings of divine Revelation.
Only God is authoritative.
1 Peter 4:11
If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God.
We believe the only words of God preserved for today are found in the Bible. We do not believe Jesus handed down hundreds of other extra-biblical doctrines to the apostles. Where is the hard evidence? Not only that, but we believe that these "other doctrines" bluntly contradict the written Scripture. I know you don't agree, but is it understood now?
The Catholic claims for the church's authority are largely based on Matthew 19. We believe the CC's interpretation of Peter's authority is a gross misinterpretation and misses the point of what Christ was doing. The CC's belief goes against the written Word of God. Therefore, we take God over man.
Yes, we're aware of the verses which use the word "tradition." Those prove utterly nothing except that the whole written scripture was not completed yet.
I'd still like to hear your take on what I said before - something I don't think you have responded to yet.
Since Protestantism disagrees with itself so much, it must therefore mean our authority (the Bible) is not clear enough.
So, why do Catholics disagree so much? And yet their authority remains infallibly clear?
_____________________________
~ Jared
"I find your lack of faith disturbing."
-- Darth Vader
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/26/2005 12:11:15 PM
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sdaw
Posts: 877
Joined: 4/11/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: majorsizemore
quote:
My point remains: Where does Scripture, and not your traditions, state that all doctrines must be found in Scripture?
George, I believe it's been explained, you just don't accept our explanation.
It's probably painfully obvious that there is a huge fundamental difference between the Catholic and Protestant understandings of divine Revelation.
Only God is authoritative.
1 Peter 4:11
If anyone speaks, he should do it as one speaking the very words of God.
We believe the only words of God preserved for today are found in the Bible. We do not believe Jesus handed down hundreds of other extra-biblical doctrines to the apostles. Where is the hard evidence? Not only that, but we believe that these "other doctrines" bluntly contradict the written Scripture. I know you don't agree, but is it understood now?
The Catholic claims for the church's authority are largely based on Matthew 19. We believe the CC's interpretation of Peter's authority is a gross misinterpretation and misses the point of what Christ was doing. The CC's belief goes against the written Word of God. Therefore, we take God over man.
Yes, we're aware of the verses which use the word "tradition." Those prove utterly nothing except that the whole written scripture was not completed yet.
I'd still like to hear your take on what I said before - something I don't think you have responded to yet.
Since Protestantism disagrees with itself so much, it must therefore mean our authority (the Bible) is not clear enough.
So, why do Catholics disagree so much? And yet their authority remains infallibly clear?
Dear Jared,
There can be a variety of opinions about some things and still they can still all be Catholic. About some things there is only one opinion, all others are not Catholic.
Some of the others are not even Christian.
On the Feast of Pope St. Cletus
Blessed be God in His Angels and in His Saints!
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/26/2005 12:18:41 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 119
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: majorsizemore
The Catholic claims for the church's authority are largely based on Matthew 19. We believe the CC's interpretation of Peter's authority is a gross misinterpretation and misses the point of what Christ was doing. The CC's belief goes against the written Word of God. Therefore, we take God over man.
See, the thing is, you can't claim that Catholic beliefs go against the word of God. I will make the claim that not a single Catholic doctrine is out of line with the scriptures. Just because a dogma isn't in the Bible (such as the assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary) doesn't make it against the scriptures.
Contrary to what Protestants thinks, Catholics actually hold the Bible in very high esteem. At mass, they read from the Old Testament, the Psalms, the Epistles, and the Gospels, plus the majority of the mass and the prayers are taken from scriptures. Priests spend years studying the Bible, and some of the brightest Biblical scholars have been Catholics. So, if you are going to make a claim such as "CC beleifs go against the Word of God" please provide more proof.
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/26/2005 1:34:50 PM
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bridgefin
Posts: 137
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Boca Raton, FL
Status: offline
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Jared,
Me:
quote:
My point remains: Where does Scripture, and not your traditions, state that all doctrines must be found in Scripture?
You:
quote:
George, I believe it's been explained, you just don't accept our explanation.
You provided your theology as to why you believe what you said. I contradicted that theology with Scriptural proof that things that are not in Scripture truly can be the Word of God. Every word ever spoken by Jesus is the Word of God and we don't know how much of that we do not have that was not recoded in writing. Then there is the canon of Scripture which is not inspiried. Do you accept the canon as being revealed by God or is it just a man made document?
quote:
It's probably painfully obvious that there is a huge fundamental difference between the Catholic and Protestant understandings of divine Revelation.
Ain't that the truth! So let's keep talking.
quote:
Only God is authoritative.
Couldn't agree with you more, Jared. And God's Word is not confined to writing.
quote:
We believe the only words of God preserved for today are found in the Bible.
Is there a Scripture verse to back up that belief? If not then it has either been made evident to you by the Holy Spirit or, if not, then it is the traditions of men. I'd be interested in which one you choose?
quote:
We do not believe Jesus handed down hundreds of other extra-biblical doctrines to the apostles. Where is the hard evidence? Not only that, but we believe that these "other doctrines" bluntly contradict the written Scripture. I know you don't agree, but is it understood now?
Do people in your church get married? By the authority of what Scripture verse? Do you keep slaves? If not, by the authority of what Scripture verse? How many wives do most people in your church maintain? Just one? By authority of what Scripture verse? Please identify how Mary's Assumption "bluntly" contradicts Scripture?
quote:
I'd still like to hear your take on what I said before - something I don't think you have responded to yet.
Since Protestantism disagrees with itself so much, it must therefore mean our authority (the Bible) is not clear enough.
So, why do Catholics disagree so much? And yet their authority remains infallibly clear?
Protestant churches teach a multitude of doctrines and believe a multitude of contradictory beliefs. The Catholic Church has no such problem. There is a body of belief that all good Catholics will give their consent to. Individual Catholic and Protestant people may accept some doctrines and reject others. I would assume Protestants are free to do that though I imagine you want them to hold to some basic beliefs. Catholics are not free to reject any of the deposit of faith since we don't get it (we believe) from within but at the prompting of the Holy Spirit. To reject a core belief is ultimately to reject God who revealed that belief.
Now, those prior Catholics who reject some of the teachings may still be Christians but they are called Protestant Christians. And yes, we have a problem with "cafeteria Catholics" who think they can pick and choose what they will and will believe. Some are invincibally ignorant, as SDAW has mentioned and some do it out of malice. In the end God will separate the wheat from the weeds though he may allow them to grow together. Does that answer your question?
Going back to the canon issue for a second, it is interesting that you accept the canon of the NT given to you by the Catholic Church but reject the Assumption of Mary given by the same source.
In Christ, George
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/26/2005 1:36:28 PM
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sadiebelle
Posts: 247
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Northern California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ToolmanUF
See, the thing is, you can't claim that Catholic beliefs go against the word of God. I will make the claim that not a single Catholic doctrine is out of line with the scriptures. Just because a dogma isn't in the Bible (such as the assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary) doesn't make it against the scriptures.
It makes a dogma/doctrine based on the words/wisdom/opinions of men, not Scripture. Is that unclear to you? If it's not found in Scripture, where is it found? The Church Fathers? Falliable men?
_____________________________
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Prone to wander Lord I feel it, prone to leave the God I love
Here's my heart O take and seal it, seal it for Thy courts above ~ Come Thou Fount
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/26/2005 1:53:19 PM
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ToolmanUF
Posts: 119
Joined: 4/14/2005
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline
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sadiebelle,
What I was saying is that a doctrine that contradicted the Bible would be like this: the Bible says for sure that Mary wasn't assumed into heaven while the Catholic Church says she did. That's wrong.
However, since the Bible says nothing about Mary's final years of her life, then saying that she was assumed into heaven isn't contradicting it. This belief comes from traditions of people who passed down the Christian faith for centuries and also from examination of the scriptures.
Ultimately, Catholics believe that God revealed this doctrine to humanity by means of the Church whose bishops are the successors of the apostles and thus have the authority to making a dogma binding on the Christian people. We believe that the faith comes to us in 3 ways: Sacred Scriptures (the Bible), Sacred Tradition (the works of the Church fathers and what they have passed on through the generation), and the Magesterium of the Chuch (the apostolic college of bishops united by the successor of St. Peter). As long a dogma comes to us through one of these sources and doesn't contradict the other 2 (and has been taught by the Christian people for centuries) then there is probally some validity to the doctrine.
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RE: Assumption of Mary? - 4/26/2005 2:05:40 PM
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sadiebelle
Posts: 247
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Northern California
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ToolmanUF
sadiebelle,
What I was saying is that a doctrine that contradicted the Bible would be like this: the Bible says for sure that Mary wasn't assumed into heaven while the Catholic Church says she did. That's wrong.
However, since the Bible says nothing about Mary's final years of her life, then saying that she was assumed into heaven isn't contradicting it. This belief comes from traditions of people who passed down the Christian faith for centuries and also from examination of the scriptures.
Ultimately, Catholics believe that God revealed this doctrine to humanity by means of the Church whose bishops are the successors of the apostles and thus have the authority to making a dogma binding on the Christian people. We believe that the faith comes to us in 3 ways: Sacred Scriptures (the Bible), Sacred Tradition (the works of the Church fathers and what they have passed on through the generation), and the Magesterium of the Chuch (the apostolic college of bishops united by the successor of St. Peter). As long a dogma comes to us through one of these sources and doesn't contradict the other 2 (and has been taught by the Christian people for centuries) then there is probally some validity to the doctrine.
By this formula for creating doctrine, I can make up anything I want and call it fact and base a whole theory on MY opinion because it is not in contradiction the the word of God. It's not supported in any way, shape or form, but it's not contradicted either. Poor f | | |
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