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The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 4/11/2005 2:02:25 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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This topic is neverending. So as to help keep things from constantly being repeated or asked we've decided to create a perpetual discussion on the topic.
Why do Catholics believe that Mary was sinless?
Discuss, debate, and delve into the reasons why protestants and catholics disagree over this point of doctrine.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 4/12/2005 4:15:36 PM
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GoodME
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No takers here?
We worked this one over pretty well at the old Christianity.com, didn't we.
I wish I had saved that thread off somewhere.....some really good stuff from both sides there.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 4/12/2005 5:51:51 PM
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XianJedi
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I think those that discussed it previously are a bit hesitant to have to START OVER again.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 4/12/2005 7:40:33 PM
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trulyblssd
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Amen!
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 4/12/2005 8:01:00 PM
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S.Benedict
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We must therefore confess simply that the Blessed Virgin committed no actual sin, neither mortal nor venial; so that what is written (Cant 4:7) is fulfilled: "Thou art all fair, O my love, and there is not a spot in thee," etc.
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I am already saved, but I’m also being saved, and I have the hope that I will be saved. Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling, with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 4/12/2005 11:14:26 PM
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GoIllini
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quote:
ORIGINAL: S.Benedict
We must therefore confess simply that the Blessed Virgin committed no actual sin, neither mortal nor venial; so that what is written (Cant 4:7) is fulfilled: "Thou art all fair, O my love, and there is not a spot in thee," etc.
Cant 4:7? Is that in the 66-book bible?
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 4/13/2005 6:58:33 AM
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sdaw
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GoIllini
quote:
ORIGINAL: S.Benedict
We must therefore confess simply that the Blessed Virgin committed no actual sin, neither mortal nor venial; so that what is written (Cant 4:7) is fulfilled: "Thou art all fair, O my love, and there is not a spot in thee," etc.
Cant 4:7? Is that in the 66-book bible?
Dear Go,
"Cant" is short for "Canticle", which is short for "Canticle of Canticles", which is another translation of "Song of Songs", which is another name for "Song of Solomon." It is in both canons.
Eternal rest grant onto him, O Lord!
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 4/29/2005 10:42:35 PM
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S.Benedict
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Let’s take the second citation first. Mary, too, required a Savior. Like all other descendants of Adam, she was subject to the necessity of contracting original sin. But by a special intervention of God, undertaken at the instant she was conceived, she was preserved from the stain of original sin and its consequences. She was therefore redeemed by the grace of Christ, but in a special way—by anticipation.
Consider an analogy: Suppose a man falls into a deep pit, and someone reaches down to pull him out. The man has been "saved" from the pit. Now imagine a woman walking along, and she too is about to topple into the pit, but at the very moment that she is to fall in, someone holds her back and prevents her. She too has been saved from the pit, but in an even better way: She was not simply taken out of the pit, she was prevented from getting stained by the mud in the first place. This is the illustration Christians have used for a thousand years to explain how Mary was saved by Christ. By receiving Christ’s grace at her conception, she had his grace applied to her before she was able to become mired in original sin and its stain.
The Catechism of the Catholic Church states that she was "redeemed in a more exalted fashion, by reason of the merits of her Son" (CCC 492). She has more reason to call God her Savior than we do, because he saved her in an even more glorious manner!
But what about Romans 3:23, "all have sinned"? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they "had done nothing either good or bad" (Rom. 9:11).
We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.
Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.
The objection is also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. Most of the angels never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work he has done in sanctifying his creation. Sinning does not make one human. On the contrary, it is when man is without sin that he is most fully what God intends him to be.
The doctrine of the Immaculate Conception was officially defined by Pope Pius IX in 1854. When Fundamentalists claim that the doctrine was "invented" at this time, they misunderstand both the history of dogmas and what prompts the Church to issue, from time to time, definitive pronouncements regarding faith or morals. They are under the impression that no doctrine is believed until the pope or an ecumenical council issues a formal statement about it.
Actually, doctrines are defined formally only when there is a controversy that needs to be cleared up or when the magisterium (the Church in its office as teacher; cf. Matt. 28:18–20; 1 Tim. 3:15, 4:11) thinks the faithful can be helped by particular emphasis being drawn to some already-existing belief. The definition of the Immaculate Conception was prompted by the latter motive; it did not come about because there were widespread doubts about the doctrine. In fact, the Vatican was deluged with requests from people desiring the doctrine to be officially proclaimed. Pope Pius IX, who was highly devoted to the Blessed Virgin, hoped the definition would inspire others in their devotion to her.
_____________________________
I am already saved, but I’m also being saved, and I have the hope that I will be saved. Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling, with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 4/29/2005 11:22:21 PM
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S.Benedict
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If you read the bible it is very easy to see that just as Jesus is the new Adam, Mary is a type of the new Eve and is the new Ark. the question lies in your ability to read both the new and old testaments and put two and two together to see the likeness both have to each other.
_____________________________
I am already saved, but I’m also being saved, and I have the hope that I will be saved. Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling, with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 4/29/2005 11:38:33 PM
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newjerusalem
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I see Jesus as the new Adam through the scripture that states as much in black and white. I see no such scriptures for Mary. Also, we all (Christians) are living arks of the covenant (which contained the law which is written on our hearts) just as we are temples of the living God who dwells within us through his spirit...as scripture states.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 4/30/2005 12:45:06 PM
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XianJedi
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Jesus was the new ark, not Mary. Just another attempt of the RCC to strip away some of Jesus' glory and hand it over to Mary.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 4/30/2005 7:15:06 PM
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S.Benedict
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quote:
We are left with the question, however, of how this woman can also be the revered ark of the covenant.
To undetstand this, we must first consider what made the ark so holy. It wasnt the acacia wood ot the gold ornaments. Nor wa it the carved figures of angles. What made the ark holy was that it contained the covenant. Inside that golden box were the ten commandments, the Word of God inscribed by the finger of God; the manna, the miracle bread sent by God to feed His people in the wilderness; and the priestly rod of Aaron.
Whatever made the ark holy made Mary even holier. If the first ark contained the Word of God in stone, Mary's body contained the Word of God enfleshed. If the first ark contained miraculous bread from heaven, Mary's body contained the very Bread of Life that conquers death forever. If the first ark contained the rod of the long-ago ancestral priest, Mary's body contained the divine person of the eternal priest, Jesus Christ.
What John saw in the heavenly temple was far greater than the ark of the old covenant - th ark that had radiated the glory cloud before the manorah, at the heart of the temple of ancient Israel. John saw the ark of the new covenant, the vessel chosen to bear God's covenant into the world once and for all.
Scott Hahn, Hail, Holy Queen
I am sorry that I was not clear on what I meant about Mary being the new ark. This excerpt shows what I meant specifically. I would encourage you, if for nothing else but the sake of learning, to either check out this book in your library, or to buy it. It was written by Scott Hahn, an ex-Presbyterian, and is titled Hail, Holy Queen, The Mother of God in the Word of God. This book does not only focus on Mary in the Word of God, but focuses also on all the biblical typology between the new and old testaments - in short, it focuses on the parallels of the law bing fulfilled.
_____________________________
I am already saved, but I’m also being saved, and I have the hope that I will be saved. Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling, with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/1/2005 5:06:01 PM
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thematrix
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If Mary was sinless, then why did she call God her Savior?
If you are sinless, why would you need a Savior?
Mary's Song - Luke 1
46And Mary said:
"My soul glorifies the Lord
47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,
48for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49for the Mighty One has done great things for me—
holy is his name.
50His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.
51He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.
52He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.
53He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.
54He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful
55to Abraham and his descendants forever,
even as he said to our fathers."
56Mary stayed with Elizabeth for about three months and then returned home.
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RE: The Perpetual Discussion on the Sinless Mary - 5/1/2005 7:48:23 PM
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nowimfound
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Romans 14:23c says, "...and everything that does not come from faith is sin."
Just how are we to apply this verse?
When Mary gave consent to being the mother of the Son of God, she acted in faith.
When Mary sang the song of Luke 1:46-55, she acted in faith.
When Mary married Joseph, she acted in faith.
When Mary treasured in her heart the things the Shepherds declared, she acted in faith.
When Mary and Joseph took Jesus to Jerusalem to be circumcised, she acted in faith.
When Mary and Joseph fled to Egypt, she acted in faith.
When Mary and Joseph returned from Egypt and settled in Nazareth, she acted in faith.
When Mary and Joseph took Jesus each year to Jerusalem for the Feast of the Passover, she acted in faith.
However, on the return trip from Jerusalem, we read that Mary and Joseph anxiously sought the young Jesus (Luke 2:48). Where is the faith in this? Had not an angel from heaven promised Mary that Jesus would be called the Son of the Most High and that He would be given the throne of David and reign over the house of Jacob forever? What was there to be anxious about?
In Mark 3:21, we read, "When his (Jesus') family head about this, they went to take charge of him, for they said, "He is out of his Mind." Who is it we read standing outside calling Jesus out? Verse 31 reads, "Then Jesus' mother and borothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. Where is the faith in responding to an accusation that Jesus is out of his Mind by going to take charge of him? Since when does the Son of God need someone to take charge of him?
If what is not done in faith is sin, then Mary's actions not done in faith are also sin.
Grace and Peace,
NIF
< Message edited by nowimfound -- 5/1/2005 7:51:01 PM >
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