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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/3/2006 11:39:49 PM
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waiting_on_him
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I find that the church seems to be very hung up on the use of terms like dating or courting.
In my church folks are very wound up thinking that dating is bad...but courting is good. How can you court if you haven't dated and gotten to know the person?
Josh Harris tells us to stop causal dating. I can agree that there isn't any point to numerous dates with various people...but dating does have its place in the relationship journey.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/4/2006 4:32:48 PM
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JaredMeister
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Yep, I read it. And the next book. Overall, I appreciate Harris' concern with purity.
But...I don't think 21-year olds should be allowed to write and publish books! Unless you're a genius child-prodigy like Jonathan Edwards, who learned Greek and Latin by the time he was 12.
How can such a young man (at the time) as Harris truly have a comprehensive grasp of dating/relationship culture to make such sweeping claims? I think his youth gave him the advantage of understanding this particular generation better than a baby-boomer, but he wasn't even married yet when he wrote the book. Hey, I'm not saying singles don't understand anything (I'm one of 'em!), but he was just a tad in-experienced.
His model, while I appreciate aspects of it, just does not work past a certain age and in certain situations. If there's not a lot of single girls at church, there is almost no way to "get to know" girls well enough without dating them. Older people with careers and such simply must set aside certain times to get together and chat (i.e. "dates"). Courtship is great - if you can do it. Most courtships are simply people who have already been dating!
How am I supposed to get to know a girl who I only see once every few months? Or a girl I meet only once? I'm not going to ask a girl to "court" unless I think she's worthy. (assuming "courting" means relationship leading to marriage). Why would a girl who barely knows me even respond favorably? The "Duh" factor is big here, I think.
In conclusion, dating is simply a must for some situations.
_____________________________
~ Jared
"I find your lack of faith disturbing."
-- Darth Vader
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/4/2006 5:10:45 PM
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babbred
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quote:
ORIGINAL: majorsizemore
Yep, I read it. And the next book. Overall, I appreciate Harris' concern with purity.
But...I don't think 21-year olds should be allowed to write and publish books! Unless you're a genius child-prodigy like Jonathan Edwards, who learned Greek and Latin by the time he was 12.
How can such a young man (at the time) as Harris truly have a comprehensive grasp of dating/relationship culture to make such sweeping claims? I think his youth gave him the advantage of understanding this particular generation better than a baby-boomer, but he wasn't even married yet when he wrote the book. Hey, I'm not saying singles don't understand anything (I'm one of 'em!), but he was just a tad in-experienced.
That's how I felt. Not only was he about 21 when he wrote it, but he was living with his pastor while he interned at his church. Compare that to the single's group at my church, where most of the people were divorced, had kids, and owned their own houses. There's a world of life experience between the two, and quite frankly, I don't see how courtship would work for the latter group.
quote:
His model, while I appreciate aspects of it, just does not work past a certain age and in certain situations. If there's not a lot of single girls at church, there is almost no way to "get to know" girls well enough without dating them. Older people with careers and such simply must set aside certain times to get together and chat (i.e. "dates"). Courtship is great - if you can do it. Most courtships are simply people who have already been dating!
How am I supposed to get to know a girl who I only see once every few months? Or a girl I meet only once? I'm not going to ask a girl to "court" unless I think she's worthy. (assuming "courting" means relationship leading to marriage). Why would a girl who barely knows me even respond favorably? The "Duh" factor is big here, I think.
In conclusion, dating is simply a must for some situations.
At the time I met my hubby, I was living halfway across the country from my parents. Therefore it was logistically impossible for them to look over my shoulder and tell me what I should and shouldn't be doing in my romantic life--and I wouldn't have liked it if they did. I was thirty and didn't really need "mothering" anymore. Harris' book is perfect if you're 21 and still living with your parents, but I don't think it does much for the majority of the single population who are older and out on their own.
We've talked about Christian men. I've also seen a negative effect on Christian women. "If I just wait patiently, God will magically send me a spouse someday without me doing anything." And yes, Harris does provide examples of this thinking. His future wife was in love with but he didn't have a clue that she did. She couldn't do anything because that would have been ungodly! So she cried her eyes out most nights and prayed that God would open Harris' eyes and make him fall in love with her. He did, and now they live happily ever after...ahhhhh. That was in BMG, and in the same book there's a story of a guy who loved a girl who in turn didn't like him. Same story. He just prayed patiently that God would open her eyes, and look! Now they're happily married. That may work for some people, but when I was single I had no desire to sit around twiddling my thumbs waiting for God to open the eyes of Mr. Right, wherever he was. I went out and enjoyed life.
I remember one night on a mission trip, a team member and I discussed relationship books. We both didn't like IKDG and both agreed that Passion and Purity was much better. I also agree with the reccommendation of When God Writes Your Love Story.
_____________________________
There's nothing better than a good friend, unless it's a good friend with chocolate.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/4/2006 5:15:28 PM
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JaredMeister
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quote:
Harris' book is perfect if you're 21 and still living with your parents, but I don't think it does much for the majority of the single population who are older and out on their own.
Exactly. The Harris paradigm works for 17-24 year-olds, and...that's about it.
quote:
We've talked about Christian men. I've also seen a negative effect on Christian women. "If I just wait patiently, God will magically send me a spouse someday without me doing anything." And yes, Harris does provide examples of this thinking. His future wife was in love with but he didn't have a clue that she did. She couldn't do anything because that would have been ungodly! So she cried her eyes out most nights and prayed that God would open Harris' eyes and make him fall in love with her. He did, and now they live happily ever after...ahhhhh. That was in BMG, and in the same book there's a story of a guy who loved a girl who in turn didn't like him. Same story. He just prayed patiently that God would open her eyes, and look! Now they're happily married. That may work for some people, but when I was single I had no desire to sit around twiddling my thumbs waiting for God to open the eyes of Mr. Right, wherever he was. I went out and enjoyed life.
Right on. The "twiddle-your-thumbs" approach is silly. The principle of male leadership is good, of course, but women are not called to be idle. Just ask Ruth! Yeah, it's dangerous to present any kind of female initiative as ungodly.
_____________________________
~ Jared
"I find your lack of faith disturbing."
-- Darth Vader
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/5/2006 9:29:59 AM
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3cappuccinosmom
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quote:
How am I supposed to get to know a girl who I only see once every few months? Or a girl I meet only once? I'm not going to ask a girl to "court" unless I think she's worthy.
 That is *not* what Josh Harris adovcated, nor is it what most people consider courtship. As it happens, my dh proposed to me just a few weeks after we met, but we are the exception to the rule.
What most courtship advocates believe is that young people should be getting to know each other in group settings, church settings, and family settings before they start the one-on-one romance leading to marriage.
You don't have to take a girl to the movies or out to dinner or gaze into her pretty eyes or kiss her to discern whether she's worthy. IMO, those are the least best ways for such discernment, anyway. Watching someone interact with family, church members, and seeing how they work for the Lord is a much better indicator of their character and potential as a spouse.
_____________________________
"Children are durable and don’t necessarily wilt under adversity, just as our children don’t necessarily thrive under luxury and comfort." Garrison Keillor
Shameless Self Promotion
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/5/2006 12:18:33 PM
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JaredMeister
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quote:
That is *not* what Josh Harris adovcated, nor is it what most people consider courtship. As it happens, my dh proposed to me just a few weeks after we met, but we are the exception to the rule.
What most courtship advocates believe is that young people should be getting to know each other in group settings, church settings, and family settings before they start the one-on-one romance leading to marriage.
You don't have to take a girl to the movies or out to dinner or gaze into her pretty eyes or kiss her to discern whether she's worthy. IMO, those are the least best ways for such discernment, anyway. Watching someone interact with family, church members, and seeing how they work for the Lord is a much better indicator of their character and potential as a spouse.
You're definitely right about that. But Harris's model is the ideal, not the reality in many situations. I would absolutely love it if I got to know a girl through church and family situations, and we slowly came to realize that we liked each other, then courted, etc. But it just isn't always that easy, especially when people get older and older.
Recently I met a girl whose parents live 3 hours away. She goes to a church that I used to go to. I'm plugged into my new church. She's a great girl, but there's almost no way to spend time with her in family or church situations on any regular basis. There's not a lot of girls at my current church, and I don't feel called to check out churches just for that purpose (at least not yet). My own church is definitely, though, the first place I would look.
I meant to say this earlier. I'm going to make a bold prediction. I predict that Josh Harris will someday retract some of the statements in these books. I think the realities of life will break through his naviete. Especially being a pastor, he is going to face all kinds of difficult situations in which there will be absolutely no easy, pat answers. He'll write another book saying, "I was wrong about what I wrote when I was 21." or "Boy, I wish I knew this 20 years ago." You heard it here first, folks! 
_____________________________
~ Jared
"I find your lack of faith disturbing."
-- Darth Vader
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/5/2006 12:39:17 PM
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captainfraulein
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I thought I might add I am close to 39 (but look younger, I am told, maybe it's cuz I am immature, don't know) and indeed own my own condo. My familiy have ZERO interest in over-seeing my choices in men. They just all want me to get married and reproduce. Especially my mom, once she found out I have a strong desire to adopt children.
I found getting to know men is not always so easy. Someone may be a tasty treat to look at but spend some time around him and I find out things like a) he is waaaaaayyyy too young for me b) he is getting out a relationship/marriage...etc c) sadly not my type and I would drive him up the wall.
There is one lad I have liked for a long time but I was involved with someone else. I have got to observe him in groups and such and like his character. I am pretty picky about personality. He is fine looking and all but that does not just do it for me. I needed to know if he was for reals in personality. He had casually invited me to things in the past (he invites others, nothing like "hey baby" or shallow superficial). It was nice.
He seems to be a servant hearted lad and not an opportunist like I feared...so I want to get to know him more and more (I am a bit gunshy after being treated like **** in long-distance failed relationship I just had). *Sigh*
I finally realised I COULD initate something and put it out there, invited a bunch of peeps to an event type thingy. He confirmed he is going! And there is not pressure on him nor me.
I do think men should LEAD and take the ball...but it does not hurt to put something out there to assist a little.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/5/2006 1:00:26 PM
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Andrewsjoy
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From: Beautiful Kelowna British Columbia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
quote:
How am I supposed to get to know a girl who I only see once every few months? Or a girl I meet only once? I'm not going to ask a girl to "court" unless I think she's worthy.
That is *not* what Josh Harris adovcated, nor is it what most people consider courtship. As it happens, my dh proposed to me just a few weeks after we met, but we are the exception to the rule.
What most courtship advocates believe is that young people should be getting to know each other in group settings, church settings, and family settings before they start the one-on-one romance leading to marriage.
You don't have to take a girl to the movies or out to dinner or gaze into her pretty eyes or kiss her to discern whether she's worthy. IMO, those are the least best ways for such discernment, anyway. Watching someone interact with family, church members, and seeing how they work for the Lord is a much better indicator of their character and potential as a spouse.
a-This IS actually quite the mindset many have who think "courtship is the answer."
I grew up around a lot of them, and have read a lot of things written by them. It is more of a general attitude and when you sit around and discuss this subject with a group which strongly believes in this, that it is the only way etc, you will realize that this is what they really believe is the right thing to do.
Yes, it is good to get to know people in group settings-but, as has been said, this is not always possible.
Personally, my parents have lived hundreds of miles away from me for years and have some, but not a lot of input into my life b/c their counsel tends to be more controlling of what they want rather than Godly.
We did have input my my husbands parents...but it was impossible for me, for example, to hang out in groups, to do things with friends...it's just impractical when you are older.
You can do some of it to certain extents...
But there is also deffinatly a time and a place where the two of you can go alone and talk and truly get to know each other. Spend time together. This is also important.
_____________________________
 Kim :) (I'm a WOMAN!)
My space
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/5/2006 1:09:39 PM
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captainfraulein
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I won't though ask a guy out. If he likes me enough, he will do so. If he does not, he won't. Plain and simple.
If he is too shy too, then his personality is not strong enough for me...not enough guts.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/5/2006 1:24:56 PM
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captainfraulein
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You know, I probably willl never get married since I scare all menz away.
However in the small chance I do get hitched, I would so be inclined to write a PROPER dating/courting book for older singles...singles who have families that are not into Jesus and the bible...have your own life...blah blah blah. Or maybe do a blog.
Probably won't happen for me. So maybe one of youse already married peeps should be doing this!
Joshua is married now and older however somebody else who is in less ideal situation than he talks about in his books...should really be writing this book.
(I am getting off my soapbox now).
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/5/2006 2:47:14 PM
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applemac
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quote:
But...I don't think 21-year olds should be allowed to write and publish books! Unless you're a genius child-prodigy like Jonathan Edwards, who learned Greek and Latin by the time he was 12.
How can such a young man (at the time) as Harris truly have a comprehensive grasp of dating/relationship culture to make such sweeping claims
Interesting...
God has spoken and worked through many people, including the young. He chose an unmarried young woman to bring His Son into the world. He chose a young man to defeat Goliath. I don't always consider his age or experience to always be a prerequisite to be able to do anything. And I believe that God still does great and mighty works through people of all ages and experiences. I don't necessarily think you are wrong in your opinion, I just have a different one. 
Again, my original topic was...
Have you read it and what did you think of it (if you actually read it).
If you didn't read it, why?
Here's another thought: if you did read it, what did you glean from it that you thought could work, and what (specific) parts did you think "There's no way that could work for me"?
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/6/2006 10:21:48 AM
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DustBuster
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I recommend that anybody who reads "I Kissed Dating Goodbye" to also read "Boundaries in Dating". The author of the second book, right out of the gate talks about how he disagrees with a lot of the principles within IKDG. Between the two books, you get two very different approaches, and you can form your own opinions on what makes sense and what doesn't.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/6/2006 3:36:49 PM
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applemac
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I like the Boundaries books. I trust Dr. Cloud, so I'll probably have to see exactly what it was he said.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/8/2006 2:11:07 PM
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babbred
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I remember a few years ago I was talking with a friend of mine. She was married but I was not. I told her that I wanted somebody just like me for a husband--raised in the church all his life. I died laughing when my friend said, "I never wanted that. All the boys in my church were nerds. I wanted somebody who came to Christ as an adult so he would have a passion for God and not churchianity." (God honored her wish.)
In my church single's group, the guys weren't nerds, but they were..nice. Just nice. Definitely no romantic spark between myself and any of them, although I enjoyed having them as friends. Not only did I marry somebody outside of my church, but he became a Christian as an adult, just like my friend's husband! Just shows you that God has a sense of humor. I also noticed that my friends in the single's group almost all married people outside of our church.
_____________________________
There's nothing better than a good friend, unless it's a good friend with chocolate.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/13/2006 7:13:50 PM
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its-me
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Applemac, I think it's so wonderful that you are preparing yourself dilligently for this phase of your daughter's life.
Regarding IKDG, I think at 21 you're an expert at ..... being 21. And depending on your level of maturity, give or take a few years too. And if you're 35...or 47... and you're a baby Christian...you're most likely right in that category too, spiritually speaking.
I think this book is extremely valuable for a young person or for a new Christian because it has some amazingly great stories - word pictures that have really stuck with me since reading it. For example, the one about all of the cards filled with the person's sins. The one that applemac mentioned about standing there at the wedding with the other women saying "you promised me that too". The concept of looking at those of the opposite sex as brothers and sisters in Christ, not just potential dates.
Most of all, the story that stuck with me was the one that described, from a man's point of view, how the way women dressed affected men. His passionate plea to women to not cause their brothers in Christ to stumble by dressing provocatively. I think that a lot of women have never heard it put that way, from a guy's point of view, and it was quite convicting. It's not just that women should cover up "cuz it's wrong"...but out of love and respect for their brothers in Christ, to not make it more difficult on them.
While to a mature Christian these might be ho hum "givens"... to a young adult or a new Christian, these are concepts that are so valuable.
I also really love the Smalley's books - tho I haven't read the one by Michael and Amy, I have heard him address IKDG with much contempt in interviews. I can see his point of view, definitely, and have no doubt that "Don't Date Naked" is wonderful as well. And although they contradict each other in many ways, I would recommend reading both. (not just you, but your daughter as well.) You can read a book and disagree with parts of it, but it would be a shame for your daughter to miss some of the lessons in this book.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/15/2006 1:00:29 AM
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mctiger
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My youth pastor from 6th-10th grade was obsessed with IKDG. At a Christian event where Harris was speaking, we managed to bring him back to our campsite. I've never seen my pastor so giddy.
It was instilled in me for a long time that dating was bad, dating was evil. Perhaps that's a bit dramatic. But you know what I mean. "Good Christians" didn't date, at least not until they were ready to get married.
And I still believe this. I'm 20 years old and never been in a relationship, and I don't plan on being in one until I'm ready to settle down and get married. There's no point, really, until then. I'm friends with a lot of guys, but I'm very picky about who I let be close to me, and how close I let them get. So far, I've avoided leading anyone on or breaking any hearts, and I'm pretty sure that's a good thing.
As I've grown from a naieve 12 year old to a learning-how-to-discern 20 year old, my take on this has changed, too. Everyone's situation is different. Everyone is raised different ways. In my church, we girls wore t-shirts when we swam in the pool if there was a boy within 500 ft. In college, I've met Christian girls who *GASP* wear bikinis. What is appropriate for some in their walk with Christ is not appropriate for others.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/15/2006 8:32:20 AM
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babbred
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I just read an excerpt of Undressed: The Naked Truth About Love, Sex, and Dating by Jason Ilian. I nearly choked with laughter. Right off the bat he says that group dating, so beloved of churches, is nothing more than an excuse for guys to hide their personalities and not take any responsibility for pursuing a girl. He said it's the worst way to get to know a person. I'm looking forard to reading the rest of his book.
_____________________________
There's nothing better than a good friend, unless it's a good friend with chocolate.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/15/2006 2:34:37 PM
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zoey
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Swet book, babbred. I want to read that. Who's the publisher?
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/15/2006 3:29:02 PM
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jeuill
Posts: 24
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From: Hyattsville, MD
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quote:
ORIGINAL: majorsizemore
Yep, I read it. And the next book. Overall, I appreciate Harris' concern with purity.
But...I don't think 21-year olds should be allowed to write and publish books! Unless you're a genius child-prodigy like Jonathan Edwards, who learned Greek and Latin by the time he was 12.
How can such a young man (at the time) as Harris truly have a comprehensive grasp of dating/relationship culture to make such sweeping claims? I think his youth gave him the advantage of understanding this particular generation better than a baby-boomer, but he wasn't even married yet when he wrote the book. Hey, I'm not saying singles don't understand anything (I'm one of 'em!), but he was just a tad in-experienced.
His model, while I appreciate aspects of it, just does not work past a certain age and in certain situations. If there's not a lot of single girls at church, there is almost no way to "get to know" girls well enough without dating them. Older people with careers and such simply must set aside certain times to get together and chat (i.e. "dates"). Courtship is great - if you can do it. Most courtships are simply people who have already been dating!
How am I supposed to get to know a girl who I only see once every few months? Or a girl I meet only once? I'm not going to ask a girl to "court" unless I think she's worthy. (assuming "courting" means relationship leading to marriage). Why would a girl who barely knows me even respond favorably? The "Duh" factor is big here, I think.
In conclusion, dating is simply a must for some situations.
You hit the nail on the head! I feel it's dangerous to ask a girl to "court" which is almos tlike proposing, and you have no idea about tis person. You might call it blind-courting. Peoples' true colors come out only after spending a great deal of time with them. You can court, but what happens when it doesn't work out? Then you court someone else. Then you court another. Isn't that the same as dating? To me courting is when you date someone exclusively.
Also, to me, dating is just oding activities with someone. I can go on a lunch date with my sister. It's a date. Or I can go on a movie date with a female friend. It's a movie date. Then maybe play tennis with another female who may enjoy tennis. I'ts a tennis date. Or, attend a Bible study with another female. That's a bible study date. There doesn't have to be anything romantic about these dates. You're just cultivating friendships and getting to know these people. COurting means God has shown me that one of those females should be my wife. So then I date them exclusively and move towards marriage. Meaning activities with any other female have come to an end.
That's just the way I see it.
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RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? - 10/15/2006 4:49:12 PM
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Andrewsjoy
Posts: 521
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From: Beautiful Kelowna British Columbia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: 3cappuccinosmom
Been thinking about definitions. I guess when I hear about "Christian dating", the New Life radio show comes to mind--they suggest (well, strongly recommend, actually) dating at least 20 people before deciding to marry one, even dating a couple people at the same time. I'm not sure how you'd do this without getting romantically/emotionally involved with some or all, or whether most people would be willing to be "one of several options".  Unless they're actually calling friendship "dating". It's quite confusing.
Maybe what some of y'all are calling dating isn't the same thing I'm thinking of. I can't imagine how it could possibly be healthy to deliberately set out to date and break up with 20 people and then go back and pick one to be your mate. | | |
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