RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (Full Version)

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JG_EA -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (10/15/2006 4:56:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: jeuill
You can court, but what happens when it doesn't work out? Then you court someone else. Then you court another. Isn't that the same as dating? To me courting is when you date someone exclusively.

Also, to me, dating is just doing activities with someone. I can go on a lunch date with my sister. It's a date. Or I can go on a movie date with a female friend. It's a movie date. Then maybe play tennis with another female who may enjoy tennis. I'ts a tennis date. Or, attend a Bible study with another female. That's a bible study date. There doesn't have to be anything romantic about these dates. You're just cultivating friendships and getting to know these people. COurting means God has shown me that one of those females should be my wife. So then I date them exclusively and move towards marriage. Meaning activities with any other female have come to an end.
I have read the book and do agree that there is much that is dangerous and hurtful in the way most americans date. I read the book when older and divorced.

It can be difficult to draw the line between dating and courting. For me, the difference is that courting is done with the intent and purpose of finding if that person is the one I will marry. It is a time to begin to grow bonds that go beyond friendship and the beginning of being a couple.

When dating means becoming a couple; but there is not the goal and stated purpose that it will lead to marriage, if successful, I see much room for harm. It is not good that we should play or practice with the process of becoming a couple. It does not glorify the marriage relationship and it treats others as less than a person. What is objectionable to me about dating (in the sense of serial coupling) is that it is often done when there is no real prospect of the relationship lasting a lifetime and often is done with several other people at the same time.

For example, I see no good reason for people that are not old enough or mature enough to have a life partner to romantically couple ( i.e. date). We do not need and should not have boyfriends/girlfriends or become part of a couple unless marriage is a possibility. It cheapens the true meaning of becoming one biblically, is a source of sexual temptation and leads to heartache almost every time. The heartache can harden the heart and the process can be soured by the experiences common to this type of dating. (Yes, been there)

If there is not "anything romantic about these dates. You're just cultivating friendships and getting to know these people." then that is great. That is not what I traditionally think of as dating. Neither do I think that anyone can or should begin courting someone that they do not already know as a friend.

The book was helpful to me to challenge the purposes and outcomes of the serial coupling usually thought of as dating as a healthy or useful means of finding a spouse. The stories and experiences in the book showed me that serial coupling is dangerous and may even become disasterous.

Just one man's opinion, yours may vary considerably.



notsuccinct -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (10/15/2006 8:29:45 PM)

I read the book... what seems like a long time ago now! but it was only 5 years. I was 13, and my parents asked me to read it.

I didn't like it at first, but after a year or two I changed my mind. I saw a lot of what Harris said about the pitfalls of typical dating proven by many of my peers -- the intimacy (lots of making out etc. going on) without commitment, letting your relationships take too high a place in your priorities, unwillingness to be patient and trust God with that part of your life. it helped me to realize the futility of having a boyfriend when you're 13, 14, 15. or 16, or 17... [8D] I talked about it with my parents and realized that I didn't want to date for the sake of dating. I wanted to wait until I was more emotionally mature and closer to being ready to make a commitment to marriage.

I think it's a good book, and I would recommend it. of course you have to take what he says with a grain of salt -- isn't that true of any "christian living" type of book? I didn't agree with everything in the book, but I did learn a few things. to be entirely honest, I've never understood why some people took it as so "legalistic" -- Harris never claims to have all the answers, and doesn't try to give some fool-proof solution, just outlines what he sees as some of the flaws in the traditional style of dating and suggests that Christians step back and try to bring that area of their life under God's standards instead. some of his suggestions about the mechanics of relationships might be too conservative for some people, but the spirit isn't legalistic ... sorry, not trying to post off topic, but I've really never understood why some people get such a wedgie about it. [8D]

this past spring I was in my first real relationship. I had been interested in the guy for some time, and he had had feelings for me, and we both thought the other was marriage material, and my parents were fine with it, so we went for it.
as far as "courting" vs. "dating" goes, our relationship was neither here nor there. we spent a good bit of time at my house doing stuff with my family, and we spent time alone at my house (before anyone says anything, not alone in my house, but in a room by ourselves), and we went out on dates... we went out alone, we went out with friends, we went over to the houses of a few of our friends. we went out with my parents a couple of times. we didn't kiss, but we held hands and sometimes hugged/sat close. basically, we just did our own thing. I don't have any regrets about what we did.
basically, as it turned out, we weren't meant for each other. that became clear after just a month or two, and though I won't say "It was a totally pain-free, godly experience!" I am glad that it worked out the way it did. I'm not sure what I was thinking I would say when I decided to tell you this, lol. something about the book probably. I guess ... it didn't make me feel like I had to marry the first person I dated (an argument I've heard from people who don't like the book), it didn't leave me with impractical guidelines. or may be I just wanted to prove that I read the book, agreed with it, and turned out alright. [8D]



jeuill -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (10/16/2006 2:43:14 PM)

Word to the wise, KNOW the person before you commit. However you do that, is up to you. Whether you call it dating, courting, or whatever. For me, I need to know the person to a comfortable degree. I can't do that without spending exclusive one-on-one time. Sure, i can have female "friends" all over the place. But in order to be friends, don't you have to spend some sorta time together? Or else you'd just be associates. Correct? Chances are, there's going to be one person you start to spend more time with because you click better or have similar interest. So have you effectively started courting? Wouldn't that be classified as going out on various dates (one-on-one time)? Thus dating?



Mr. -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (10/18/2006 12:39:02 AM)

I read it about 6 years ago...but I forgot what it said...[:D]

sorry



His4evr -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (10/18/2006 12:53:14 AM)

I read "I kissed dating goodbye" before I had any boyfriend, or anything... though I was in my teen years already. I agreed with everything it said... and believe me, it doesn't really give a formula.. I believe he says a couple different times that he's NOT going to give a list of hard and fast rules, because they're different for different people....

anyway- this past summer I met my prince.. the book didn't influence me a lot... but that was because from the beginning of my preteen years, I've been inundated with purity education and all sorts of stuff... being prepared far too much.... so... um... it actually took my prince a little bit to get me to warm up to letting him touch me at all- it was awkward to let him hold my hand to begin with... but that wasn't Joshua Harris' problem... that was all of the ultra-conservative preachers at my summer camp, etc...
This fall, after my prince went back to school, and our relationship became long distance... I read "Boy meets girl"... and it helped me... a lot. In great part because I was focused on the idea that I needed my parents approval of my prince, no matter what... that I was under their authority in this relationship.... and Joshua Harris really stated quite clearly for me- when it comes to the decision of marriage... it's something *I* have to decide... not them. I am required to listen to their counsel, and consider their opinions and wisdom before I choose... but he blew out of the water the confusion I had about needing their approval 100%... freed me from a lot of worry and concern over what they will think of him... realized that I do desire their approval... but because it is my desire, and what I want, rather than just an annoying rule.. I'm probably more likely to respect what they have to say, because I don't feel forced to.
I'm glad I read these books.

For the purpose of giving them to a teen daughter who is liable to get mixed up into the dating scene... give the IKDG book to her... or some other book with the same message- that dating is for choosing a spouse- not recreation... and to guard her heart, and not give it away to people that she isn't marrying.



Katie-Scarlet -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (10/18/2006 3:21:55 AM)

Nah I stay away from books on relationships. The bible has all I need to know about how to deal with any relationship situation.

There is nothing wrong with books but I think people go to them before they go to the bible. They would much rather read a book than to sit down with the bible and search thru it for scriptures on relationships. Taking a few weeks or a month to go thru the bible and do a study on relationships will do real good in your life. When faced with situations that satan wants to present in you life you can quote him scripture from the word and cause him to flee. He doesn't run from the writers words but God's word whole different ball game.



on_hold -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (10/18/2006 4:32:26 AM)

I read this in early high school and lived by it for a few years. Then I met my girlfriend [:D]

Anyway, I think it was helpful for me when I first read it because it kept me from the casual dating scene. I was holding out for something deeper which I got by the end of junior year (we're still together 2 1/2 years later).

I think the over-arching principles of holding out for a higher standard, avoiding the "game" of dating (take it seriously), etc. are valid and good, but it's very easy to get legalistic and "holier-than-thou" about it especially when you throw in the whole "We're not dating; we're courting" thing in his next book.



babbred -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (10/26/2006 9:23:55 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zoey

Swet book, babbred. I want to read that. Who's the publisher?


Sorry, I was ill so I've been away for a while. It's Faithwords. You can find it at www.christianbook.com


The author said something else interesting. You can get hurt every bit as much by courting as by dating. In the intense atmosphere of courting, where you're only supposed to approach a girl if you think you want to marry her, then most girls probably start dreaming of the white dress and big church ceremony when you approach her. If for any reason you change your mind, then how does that make her feel?



dsfuva -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (10/26/2006 12:44:46 PM)

Babbred, I'm glad you're feeling better.

I should probably have added in my initial post in this thread that I was in my late 30's when I read IKDG, and that was some years ago.

His system might work if we're talking about a young man and a young woman who are the children of Christian parents, have a strong trust relationship with them and perhaps are still under their authority. For those of us who've been on our own for years, are well beyond our early 20's, have non-believing and/or deceased parents or whose parents live in another city, it's a different story.

Even with those for whom Mr. Harris' system might be effective, it's still not the church's place to designate "courtship" as the official church-approved method of meeting one's future spouse.



prospermuch -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (10/26/2006 2:32:51 PM)

I loved the book, "I kissed dating Goodbye" Prior to reading the book, I heard a word on a christian program where a man stated that he treated his wife like a spiritual sister until they were married. In other words, that hit me, and i began to think about that on deeper terms. In fact, my question for this week's blog is along the same line, please visit and share your Godly advice. I believe it will be a great help to your daughter. Sometimes, we just need to know that there are other options for healthy, Godly relationships.



babbred -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (11/1/2006 12:55:19 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: dsfuva

Babbred, I'm glad you're feeling better.

I should probably have added in my initial post in this thread that I was in my late 30's when I read IKDG, and that was some years ago.

His system might work if we're talking about a young man and a young woman who are the children of Christian parents, have a strong trust relationship with them and perhaps are still under their authority. For those of us who've been on our own for years, are well beyond our early 20's, have non-believing and/or deceased parents or whose parents live in another city, it's a different story.

Even with those for whom Mr. Harris' system might be effective, it's still not the church's place to designate "courtship" as the official church-approved method of meeting one's future spouse.



Thank you. [:)]


I agree with your comments above. When I met my future husband, we both lived in a different city from our parents. In fact, he had lived on his own for most of his adult life. He was 40 and I was 30. Yet somehow we managed to have a God-honoring relationship and end up living happily ever after together. Courtship is fine for some people, but I just get irritated when it's pushed as the holier way to catch a spouse.



spiritbird -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (12/16/2006 11:43:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: redwhiterose

As a 38 year old, I find this book, Boy Meets Girl, difficult to sort through. I kissed Dating Goodbye ended up being thrown across the room a few times. I did not do that to BMG though, if that helps to give you an idea.

I did find some solid truths in it. I would love to only deal with the whole ball of wax of relationships (I do them very poorly!) ONLY if the guy has the guts to actually initate a "courtship" type thing. I do though have written in my membership packet at my church "if a man wants my hand in marriage, he must talk to the elders first and get their blessings since pretty blue eyes make me stupid". Seriously, I wrote something like that! and SIGNED IT.

I think after once again, getting burned...dating is a very dangerous vehicle to drive on the way to marriage. Courtship is a much safer one. How to do that as an older adult...I just don't know.

Next guy who I want to try things out with...I am praying that guy will end up wanting COURTSHIP. I want my freedom! I do not want an intimate close kissy kissy relationship until engagement.



I need to be me as long as possible and not us.

The book's best story was about a lad whose beloved did not love her but he waited on God patiently till her heart turned around.
Honestly that was so romantic...and so godly! *sigh*


I'm 36 years old single female and i'm wondering can i find a man who will court me in my 30's too.



Geocacher301 -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (4/27/2007 4:52:17 PM)

I just found this forum and the discussion on the Kissed Dating Goodbye book and have seen a lot of good discussion.

I will add a few points here myself. It has been a little while since I read the book so am talking somewhat from memory. I haven't read his Boy Meets Girl book yet.

One thing that always amazes me is the use of the story of Abraham getting a wife for Isaac as a way to build "dating doctrine" or presenting it as a pattern to find a mate. Just because it happened that way the one time doesn't mean that it should be a pattern or model for everyone to find their spouse.

A good example of where how something happened once but was not the method God usually used is the story of King Jehoshaphat and Judah's defense against the Moabites. God's answer in this case was to go out with praise and singing. Most of the time God's instruction was to go out and fight (knowing that God was helping them etc). It would be quite incorrect to use the Jehoshaphat story as the only approach when adversity happens.

I would also question how this same story of Isaac and Rebakh shows that we should be passive in looking for a mate and to "sit in the field and meditate" and wait for God to bring each of us a spouse. Abraham was very purposeful/ambitiousin getting a wife for his son. Other people have commented on that same passage described it as being drive vs passive as taught in book being discussed. We no longer have fathers who will send their servant out to find us a mate. Doctrine could be built using the same story and give the following steps:

Know when it is time to find a spouse.
Go to where God's people are (Church/Singles Events)
Ask God to show me who my spouse is to be.
Etc.


Again I question building a doctrine from one event that happened in the Old Testament but I use this to shows how this same passage could be interpreted quite differently than how it was presented in the book we are discussing. I question the "sitting in a field and meditate" while God brings you a spouse type of teaching.

I was glad to see that other people pointed out that what he teaches is something that is more suited for teenagers vs. older single people. A lot of pastors including Joshua Harris get married young and as others have pointed out they have limited or no experience as an older more mature single person.

Having a "one size fits all" policy makes no sense in my opinion and causes more problems than it solves. Some of these problems includes a lack of healthy relationships between brothers and sisters. In the past I could usually tell when a church I was visiting looked down on dating In these churches the single brothers and sisters were many times afraid of the opposite sex and thus didn't have healthy relationships with people of the opposite sex. Not having these healthy relationships can lead to a number of problems.

One person said that many times pastors that have this type of dating policy in their churches hear only what they want to hear about this. That is they hear only the good things and not the disadvantages etc. I don't recall reading in the book IKDG mentioning any of the disadvantages or what can happen when this becomes legalistic. The group he is now a pastor for has a history of experiences with both the good and bad of what he talks about in his book. It would have been good if he mentioned some of these experiences and how there was a learning curve especially when first introduced.


In some groups where they push this no dating policy, couples many times are under pressure to either get engaged quickly or break off their seeing of each other (courting/dating). I have heard that sometimes this has lead to people getting married before they were ready to and many times they regret their marriage decision. Hopefully this problem has been recognized and corrections made so that couples aren't under this pressure now like other couples were in the past.

I can understand that one shouldn't "date" a person for a long time if either person has no interest in it moving on to marriage . On the other hand, why in some circles is it a problem if a more mature single man and woman decide to do something together as friends? If we are truly to treat the younger women as "sisters" then why can't I do something alone with a woman just like I do with my biological sister?

Another good point to consider here is that some people do better with and in groups than others. Some people thrive and can find and meet their spouse in that type of enviroment. Other people don't do so well. The people that don't do well in groups may have a hard time finding and meeting a spouse in this type of situation.

In summary I think Joshua Harris's book has good points but his one has to weigh what parts they apply etc. Perhaps the best way to look at the book is that is he is writing about his own experience and what worked with him and realize that just because it worked for him doesn't mean all of it will work for you or should be how it is done in your life?

Steve



agapemami -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (4/28/2007 3:35:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: josie423

I read it and thought it was good. I had already resolved not to date before I read the book, though.


Yeah, me too.

I liked it a lot. It has helped me a lot w/setting boundaries. Not just in dating/courting but w/male relationships in general. . .I have not dated/courted yet as a Christian, so I havent put it to use...but I think its a good book to read before that process begins. Its not a book of rules. I read it w/an open mind.

The author was convicted to do things the way he did...I loved reading about it. I probably wont do things the exact same way.



agapemami -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (4/28/2007 3:52:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: spiritbird

quote:

ORIGINAL: redwhiterose

As a 38 year old, I find this book, Boy Meets Girl, difficult to sort through. I kissed Dating Goodbye ended up being thrown across the room a few times. I did not do that to BMG though, if that helps to give you an idea.

I did find some solid truths in it. I would love to only deal with the whole ball of wax of relationships (I do them very poorly!) ONLY if the guy has the guts to actually initate a "courtship" type thing. I do though have written in my membership packet at my church "if a man wants my hand in marriage, he must talk to the elders first and get their blessings since pretty blue eyes make me stupid". Seriously, I wrote something like that! and SIGNED IT.

I think after once again, getting burned...dating is a very dangerous vehicle to drive on the way to marriage. Courtship is a much safer one. How to do that as an older adult...I just don't know.

Next guy who I want to try things out with...I am praying that guy will end up wanting COURTSHIP. I want my freedom! I do not want an intimate close kissy kissy relationship until engagement.



I need to be me as long as possible and not us.

The book's best story was about a lad whose beloved did not love her but he waited on God patiently till her heart turned around.
Honestly that was so romantic...and so godly! *sigh*


I'm 36 years old single female and i'm wondering can i find a man who will court me in my 30's too.

quote:

I'm 36 years old single female and i'm wondering can i find a man who will court me in my 30's too.


Is that what you want to do, court??? If you have that mindset, hopefully, you'll find someone w/the same. Im 33.5 living in LA. What are my chances of finding that as well:)



agapemami -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (4/28/2007 9:55:28 PM)

quote:

I asked for examples of Josh Harris saying "Stand around and wait for a mate". I do not believe he says that in his writings but I am open to reading on examples of him saying that.


HE DID NOT SAY that at all. Josh did not really "wait around"...He was doing what he was supposed to and following Gods will for his life when things took off...I cant recall, but I believe he was living in Washington and moved to Maryland to be discipled...so, he followed Gods calling for that...he would not have met Sharon if he hadnt...I believe she worked in the office or something and thats how he knew of her...and right before that he was interested in this girl but turns out she had a boyfriend and it became clear she wasnt going to be the one...and he states that he thought he would marry a homeschooled girl raised Christian all her life...blah blah blah...Sharon wasnt that...

Yeah, maybe he waited a little...but look at his position/who he is and why. I think the ideas in his book is to create a mindset of purity...that can be followed by anyone if they choose it at my age, Ill probably end up w/a guy whose been through a divorce/have children...I think I can be alone w/a man and thats ok because I have a certain mindset...and Im in my 30s and can have a convo w/a man alone w/o thinking my or his:) shirt is going to come off or its going to go somewhere it shouldnt...I probably wouldnt make it an everysay habit of being alone...

I think its a book anyone of any age can benefit from....if you read it as a book of instructions for all to follow, thats a bad idea -its not THE bible. . .I love Josh, can you tell?:) I do! and I appreciate the book.

Oh yeah, its assumed that you would court someone that you actually know and are friends with or well acquainted...

Some more of Josh:

http://girltalk.blogs.com/girltalk/purity/index.html

NOT EVERYONE CAN HAVE THIS:

http://girltalk.blogs.com/girltalk/courtship/index.html



kittyb -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (5/2/2007 4:21:04 PM)

I read it...

I think it is great for teens and young college students in their 20's...

Doesn't have much to add if you are really a mature adult.

Kitty



Geocacher301 -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (5/8/2007 4:08:42 PM)

I couldn’t find my copy of Joshua Harris’s original KDG book to check and see if he did use the story of Isaac and Rebekah as I had thought. I did get a copy of his revised book and the only usage of this story that I found was using the story to indicate that Rebekah was serving when Abraham’s servant was found her. I agree with that usage of the story.

Thus unless this was changed in the revised book, I stand corrected. He doesn’t appear to try and teach “doctrine” for meeting a mate from this story. I have certainly seen others who did use this story in their promotion of “groups” and the “kissing dating goodbye” philosophy. I am glad he isn’t doing the same.

When others would use this passage of Scripture, they would point out that Isaac was in a field meditating when God brought him his spouse and state that you that you should be
“passive” in trying to find a spouse vs. taking initiative. They certainly didn’t mention that brothers this day and age have dual roles in that story of both the servant and Isaac. A single brother needs to learn to take initiative at the right God ordained time.

Speaking of history, this promoting groups and frowning upon “dating” has been promoted by various churches and organizations (including the one he is a part of) for around 30 years (20 years when the book was written). With this amount of history, the more it shocks me that Joshua didn’t mention much about the history and what has gone wrong with implementing this in the past. There certainly was a “learning curve” that that various churches have gone through with this that one would think others being introduced to this should know and learn from.

How does that one quote go? Isn’t it something like “those who forget the past are destined to repeat it?” Wouldn’t it be good when learning about this alternative to dating what the caveats are? Problems need to be acknowledged if they are going to be corrected.

It almost appears as if Joshua is trying to promote this like a product salesman who only shares the pros of his product vs. someone who objectively sees the pros and cons and warns others of what can go wrong? I would agree that a lot of what he promotes here has merits but at the same time have seen and heard from others what has gone wrong with this.

Perhaps both his youth and his approach to writing this as more of a testimonial vs. a handbook explains why he failed to mention what has gone wrong with this in the past? Still, one would still think that when promoting this approach he would share some of what has gone wrong. Ignoring this kind of makes me wonder if this pastor only hears what he wants to hear about this (only good) vs. also hearing the problems. I have certainly seen other pastors ignore the caveats.

Sometimes when something like this is introduced it is applied to an extreme rather then a balance. It can also depend on how this practice is taught and implemented by a local church’s leadership. One example that comes to mind is two churches that were both part of the same overseeing group. In one church the singles were more “relaxed” about this approach (perhaps Grace oriented) while at the other church the singles were more “hyper” about this (perhaps legalistic). This observation was shared by a number of people. Both were taught basically the same things but different leadership lead to different results.

In my opinion, some of the things learned as this system was implemented in various churches are as follows:

It can start out in grace and become legalistic. Just as people having a tendency to naturally fall into legalism, people also have a tendency to become legalistic with rules about dating. There has to be a balance and Grace.

There isn’t a “one size fits all” for this. When this was first taught, there was no mention of this. What was appropriate for teenagers was also the norm for older adults. There needs to be latitude depending on a person’s maturity and situation.

It can lead to single brothers and sisters being “afraid” of each other and thus not having friendships with people of the opposite sex. Many churches you can easily tell that they promote this system; the single brothers and sisters are “afraid” or each other.

Many times this leads to brothers becoming “gun shy” about becoming friends with a sister due to being afraid of “leading her on.”

Clarification from leadership needs to be given on is it or is it not right to do things one on one as “friends” with someone of the opposite sex. With different age groups different guidelines should apply. Since the term “dating” is avoided, perhaps this could be called recreational friendship or fellowship?

When this system is promoted, one needs to clarify what they mean by the “dating” they don’t approve of. Are they talking about someone that does something with someone of the opposite sex or are they more getting at someone that recreationally partners up with someone before they are ready to marry or if they have no interest in marriage?

When a system like this is promoted and a lot of one on one interaction is taken away. This is taking away significant social interaction that people have. This needs to be replaced with other group activities. If that doesn’t happen then it can lead to isolation of singles. Also not all people are as successful setting up groups as others.

Many times couples that “court” were pressured to make a sooner than necessary decision to either get engaged and marry or to break off the courtship. This lead to people getting married before either they were ready for marriage or when they weren’t a good match. Also a surprising number engagements were broken off, perhaps due to this KDG environment due to similar problems.


I am sure there is more than what I mention above and what happened varied between different churches. I am also sure that some would disagree with me on this. IMO what can go wrong when the KDG philosophy is carried to an extreme can be just as bad of some of the dating caveats.

My reading and participating in this discussion has prompted me to read his “Boy Meets Girl” book. Surprisingly I don’t take exception to much of what he has written. Joshua does mention the need for latitude in that book. Hopefully where he pastors and other churches that promote this dating/courtship approach, this latitude actually occurs. As I previously stated, people tend to gravitate towards a legalistic approach on this when left unchecked.

In closing and in summary and as one old cliché goes about “not throwing out the baby with the bath water” I wouldn’t be one to automatically discount this approach due to initial problems that occurred with this. “Dating” certainly has pitfalls that should be avoided. I would just hope that the problems with the KDG philosophy would be acknowledged and learned from so that a properly balanced approach happens.

Sorry for the long winded post.



michlang -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (5/8/2007 7:54:30 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: prospermuch

I loved the book, "I kissed dating Goodbye" Prior to reading the book, I heard a word on a christian program where a man stated that he treated his wife like a spiritual sister until they were married. In other words, that hit me, and i began to think about that on deeper terms. In fact, my question for this week's blog is along the same line, please visit and share your Godly advice. I believe it will be a great help to your daughter. Sometimes, we just need to know that there are other options for healthy, Godly relationships.


Yikes! I could never have married my wife if I had ever thought about her in any way as a sister...[&:]



Faithboy101 -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (5/8/2007 8:22:11 PM)

I can't remember if I responded to this thread, but I love that book. We had to read it @ the Bible College that I went to, and I haven't dated for 11 years now. I wish the youth @ my Church would read it. There if a friend of mine who it only 20, and he is gonna marry a gal...he has only been dating for 3 months.

-Roger



agapemami -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (5/9/2007 1:41:50 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittyb

I read it...

I think it is great for teens and young college students in their 20's...

Doesn't have much to add if you are really a mature adult.

Kitty


Really?
I think its a good book, especially for new Christians to read regardless of age....its like anything else, eventually you have to graduate/move up...this will not be the last book on dating/courtship I will read. . .but I think it provided a good foundation (for me)...and I found it real interesting.

And I think Josh's philosophy probably works best w/someone whose mind is already made up to court or do things closely to the way the book describes...When I read it my thinking was already aligned w/some of what he said...

It probably would not have worked for me in my teens and 20s . . .
If I had a teen/20 year old, Id read through it together...and discuss it like any other that might influence



kittyb -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (5/9/2007 5:29:13 AM)

hello,
Hi Agape... I haven't seen you postting lately but I ususally enjoy your posts.

Geo 301... I thought that was an excellent post that you wrote above... it stresses a lot of my thoughts about the book I kissed dating good bye.

I would recommend it as interesting Christian reading... I think the main points that I received from the book was that people shouldn't really be seeking relationships unless they are ready for marriage. Then secondly, the whole point of their spending time together should be to determine if they can be compatible mates as a husband and wife team.

However, as a mature adult... I would say that I DID date as a teen. I didn't find to be harmful any if anything was probably a productive part of my social development.

There were a lot of important lessons that I learned that I believe serve me well as an adult.

I think that in general if most people simply followed rules of purity and honesty then there would be no real need to focus on whether or not a person should date verse court.

Not all courtships will lead to marriage... Not all dating leads to heartbreak and sin...

Geo 301... It like you suggest in your post... there needs to be a balance.


Kitty



mellysue -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (5/9/2007 9:54:39 AM)

I just didn't like the situation the book put me in. I read it when I was 19 and dating my husband. At the time I read the book we had been dating 2 years and were in a long distance relationship (going to different schools)
Had marriage crossed our minds? Yes. I thought about it, and I thought he was the one for me, but I wasn't 100% sure, nor did I want to walk down that path yet because I didn't want to marry until I was out of school. But according to the book if marriage isn't for sure in our future, we should have broken up.
If we had, I'm not so sure we would have ever married (especially since we were at different schools at the time)
So instead we dated for 5 more years, and have been married for 4. I guess our dating life looked more like courtship than 'dating' because it was so long. But again, we were not engaged or seriously considering marriage more than a 'in the future' thing until the last couple years of dating.



Geocacher301 -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (6/6/2007 9:57:17 AM)

Thanks for the compliment on my post Kittyb.

I was surprised that no one commented on whether or not Joshua Harris ever shares on the pitfalls of this group approach. I would be curious to hear if he does.

It is refreshing hearing people share how different patterns worked for them. The pattern that KDG laid out isn't the only way God has worked to develop successful relationships and marriage with the opposite sex. It was also refreshing to hear someone share they benefited from dating.
Just as Jesus used different ways to heal blindness, God uses various ways for people to meet their significant other.

Though I am sure that I sound like a broken record, it still baffles me that the author of the book is quick to share all the pitfalls of dating but mentions none of the pitfalls of the system he is promoting, especially when he is with a group that has had a history with this and should know the pitfalls. Perhaps this is a blind spot that Joshua Harris has? Perhaps leadership of his church has never come to terms with what can and has gone wrong with the group approach? Maybe they sincerely think that there were no problems with this system. This could happen when people only tell the pastors what they want to hear or when the people that this system doesn’t work for leave.

I continue to harp on his omission due to what I have seen happen when this approach is taken to an extreme. I have previously posted about the bad environment it can create. Here are some consequences that I have seen happen from the group approach being pushed to an extreme:

- Older Christian singles carry "baggage'' from being taught a legalistic version of this. With this you would see people in their 30's or older relating to each other like they were in middle school. This included being afraid of each other.
- People would not get married or miss a chance to have children due to a late marriage.
- Couples get married too quickly and later realize they are a bad match. The couples married too quickly due to only being allowed to court when it was "with a purpose."

Despite all of this history, I didn't see any mention of the pitfalls of the group approach.

In one church some of the brothers used to joke that it was easier to get to know a single woman who was newer to the church since she wasn't carrying the baggage" that other single women had been in the church for a while had.

Even if you personally have a balanced approach to this, it can be hard trying to relate to singles of the opposite sex when they have taken an unbalanced approach to this.

Like a lot of things, introducing a new approach does solve some problems but at the same time can create new problems. Hopefully the new approach creates less problems than it eliminated. Sometimes new approaches barely break even or create more problems then they solve.

Though the author certainly outlined some good principles or guidelines, most of what he presented is not doctrine. I have seen a few groups teach this approach as doctrine. At least the author didn’t teach it to that extreme. Explaining that different guidelines should occur for people of different ages (which I don’t recall seeing in his book) would be a good start.

I am sure that many when they experience this approach taken to an extreme get turned off. Some go to the other extreme with dating while others become turned off to Christianity. Ironically, the author not sharing the pitfalls will lead to other groups having to experience them. This would undoubtedly lead to more people discrediting his group approach.

Just so people know, I have e-mailed my posts to Joshua Harris and will forward this one also. I will be curious if he responds and what his comments are.

In conclusion and as I have state before this system has merits but just like with dating one has to be aware of the pitfalls of this system.



JaredMeister -> RE: Have you read "I Kissed Dating Goodbye"? (6/6/2007 1:31:20 PM)

quote:

Though I am sure that I sound like a broken record, it still baffles me that the author of the book is quick to share all the pitfalls of dating but mentions none of the pitfalls of the system he is promoting, especially when he is with a group that has had a history with this and should know the pitfalls. Perhaps this is a blind spot that Joshua Harris has?


Because he was only 21 years old when he wrote the book. He simply did not have the "battle-field" experience to give full-orbed picture of the situation. Sure, he had some dating experience, but clearly not enough.

Look for a seriously "Revised Edition" of IKDG someday, if it's not out already.



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