RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (Full Version)

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miasma -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 11:03:25 AM)

quote:

(1Th 5:21) Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
How does this relate to the topic? It sounds like it comes down to a personal decision as to what is good and what needs to be proven. One person says that crossdressing or transgenderism is not a sin, and another person says it is.
For years ladies were compelled not to wear makeup by the church. Church members were scolded for attending movies, listening to modern music and so forth. Social constructs alone decied that these things were good and we were to hold fast to them, so people did.


Don't forget women in trousers, playing cards, dancing, acting, Elvis Presley...



DaveW -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 12:25:54 PM)

RCJames: what would you tell someone who was a chimera, i.e. had both XX and XY chromosomes and had the physical plumbing of both genders and wanted to be a beliver and get married? Who could they biblically marry?



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 12:47:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

RCJames: what would you tell someone who was a chimera, i.e. had both XX and XY chromosomes and had the physical plumbing of both genders and wanted to be a beliver and get married? Who could they biblically marry?


There are also some men that have XY chromosomes, but then ended up with female parts, and vice versa. It's been a while since I took genetics (I'm sure it has a name), but they act like men and are biologically men, but they were born with the wrong external parts.



ariannaleigh -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 12:50:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Well shucks, if some cross-dressing, transgender type folks want to fellowship at my Church; they are welcome, as long as they repent of thier rebellion, sin, and craziness.

Else they can go on down the street to the Unitarian or possibly the UCC or some other gathering, but they will not be welcome here without repentance and salvation.

Same thing goes for homosexuals, adulterers, fornicators, and sinners of all ilks.


Thanks
RC


I'm a Christian, and I'm struggling with transgender issues, and a big reason why I'm in a forum talking about this instead of my church is because of views like this. I'm not saying accept all sin, and gloss things over, but be realistic. As a Christian, it's hard for me to talk about this. What do you think this does to non Christians? It pushes them away and turns them off to the Gospel before they even hear it. The very fact that you call "cross-dressing, transgender type folks" crazy ("as long as they repent of thier ... craziness [sic]"), shows the insensitivity prevalent in many churches. I don't mean to point you out, because a lot of people do the same thing. Even a couple months ago, I would have probably said the same thing.

Let me put it this way: what if the situation were reversed? What if you were transgendered and had never before known Christ. Would you want to go to church when the people there are condemning you as crazy?

Matthew 18:32-33 (NIV)
"Then the master called the servant in. 'You wicked servant,' he said, 'I canceled all that debt of yours because you begged me to. Shouldn't you have had mercy on your fellow servant just as I had on you?'"

quote:

There are also some men that have XY chromosomes, but then ended up with female parts, and vice versa. It's been a while since I took genetics (I'm sure it has a name), but they act like men and are biologically men, but they were born with the wrong external parts.


Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 12:52:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ariannaleigh

quote:

There are also some men that have XY chromosomes, but then ended up with female parts, and vice versa. It's been a while since I took genetics (I'm sure it has a name), but they act like men and are biologically men, but they were born with the wrong external parts.


Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome


Thanks. :) I didn't pay attention like I should have in that class.



Bro_Shane -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 2:00:39 PM)

I thinkthere is a very large difference here between those born with a genetic defect and those who struggle with things that do not have one shred of proof to state that they are caused by genetic irregularity, are rooted in some biological cause, or doesn't fall under the umbrella of physilogical illness.

I believe that people who cross dress, as defined for this thread, struggle with something akin to those who struggle with same-sex desires. My opinion is that, as long as they are not acting on those desires, and are seeking God's delivery from it, the struggle is not sin. For those who are born with real disorders, they must be treated with respect and love. Through prayer and God's word any problem can be overcome (some easily, some not so easily).

If I have a man come to my church dressed as a woman he is told that he is welcome as long as he dresses as a man when he comes. This is done with respect and love. Then its up to him.



uschaplain -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 2:19:01 PM)

The Moderator said: "For the purpose of this thread cross dressing shall be defined as a man or woman who dresses in such a way as to attempt to pass themselves off as the opposite sex or to attempt to look like the opposite sex."

The Bible has a lot to say about deception, either deceiving ourselves or others. Deception is considered a sin.

I don't think a female impersonator is using deception in the way the Bible condemns. They are crossdressing to look like the opposite sex. I do not believe this is sinful. The female impersonator knows he is a man, even when crossdressed. He maintains an illusion while crossdressed as an entertainment and as his livelihood. Female impersonators may be heterosexual or other. Not all female impersonators are drag queens.

I have a Master's degree in counseling and a Ph.D. in Biblical studies. Crossdressers come in many varieties. Heterosexual non-fetish crossdressers, from what I've studied and observed, see themselves as biologically male. They are well aware of their maleness. Some partially crossdress.

Some heterosexual, non-fetish, crossdressers may wear female undergarments under their male clothing. They look like males. They do not look like women. Nevertheless, they would say they are crossdressers.

Some wear adrongynous clothing, sometimes called uni-sex clothing. Some commercial clothing is designed for either sex. The combat uniforms in the military (BDUs, DCUs, etc.) are worn by both males and females.

Some heterosexual, non-fetish, crossdressers may wear one or more female outer garments. This garment or garments may be a pair of slacks or a top or something else.

Some heterosexual, non-fetish, crossdressers wear all female garments, but not wear make-up, or have their hair styled. Others will wear make-up and have their hair styled, but not wear outer female garments.

Some heterosexual, non-fetish, crossdressers will wear all female garments, make up, and have their hair styled, but they still look like (or act like) a man in a dress. They are not trying to pass as women.

Some heterosexual, non-fetish, crossdressers will wear all female garments, make-up, and have their hair styled, and will behave in feminine ways, not to be women, but simply to blend and not call attention to themselves.

Some heterosexual, non-fetish, crossdressers will wear all female garments, make-up, and have their hair styled, and will live and work as if they are women, knowing full well they are men. They would say they are transgenderists. They do not want to be women. They do not want to have hormones, electrolysis, or plastic surgery. They are not transsexuals.



uschaplain -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 2:45:49 PM)

More on, "For the purpose of this thread cross dressing shall be defined as a man or woman who dresses in such a way as to attempt to pass themselves off as the opposite sex or to attempt to look like the opposite sex."

The Bible records the words of Jesus about individuals, who made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. Would this passage relate to those, who have or seek surgery to remove their male external organs, such as transsexuals? Jesus said in Matthew 19:12, "For there are eunuchs who were born that way from their mother's womb; and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men; and there are also eunuchs who made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. He who is able to accept this, let him accept it."

From my study and counseling of heterosexual, non-fetish, crossdressers, they dress in part or in whole in clothing associated with the opposite sex for numerous reasons. Some, because they like to wear the clothes. Some, because it relieves stress. Some, because it feels right. Some because they admire and want to emulate women. The list can go on and on.

From my study and counseling of heterosexual, non-fetish, crossdressers, they may attempt to pass, but very few are successful all the time, and I would say probably never all the time. Most want to look like the opposite sex in order to blend in with those around them and not draw attention to themselves. They are not crossdressing to deceive themselves and others; and when asked by police officers or others, they will readily admit they are men, who like dressing in clothing of the opposite sex.



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 2:51:29 PM)

quote:

I thinkthere is a very large difference here between those born with a genetic defect and those who struggle with things that do not have one shred of proof to state that they are caused by genetic irregularity, are rooted in some biological cause, or doesn't fall under the umbrella of physilogical illness.


The thing about some people is that they DO have a genetic problem, but since they've not been analyzed, they don't know it (I think some homosexuals have these problems but don't know it). The reason why I brought it up is because it's an issue. The point is, to dress like your sex, you have to know what your sex is.



Bro_Shane -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 3:08:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: solo_soprano20

quote:

I thinkthere is a very large difference here between those born with a genetic defect and those who struggle with things that do not have one shred of proof to state that they are caused by genetic irregularity, are rooted in some biological cause, or doesn't fall under the umbrella of physilogical illness.


The thing about some people is that they DO have a genetic problem, but since they've not been analyzed, they don't know it (I think some homosexuals have these problems but don't know it). The reason why I brought it up is because it's an issue. The point is, to dress like your sex, you have to know what your sex is.



I agree that knowing your sex is important for those with some of the above mentioned conditions. I just wanted to be sure that those who are what they are through no fault of their own are not lumped in with those who choose to do what they do.

I guess I should have been more clear -sorry. [:)]



uschaplain -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 3:16:13 PM)

quote:

RCJames: what would you tell someone who was a chimera, i.e. had both XX and XY chromosomes and had the physical plumbing of both genders and wanted to be a beliver and get married? Who could they biblically marry?


In addition, some folks are XXY, which is called Klinefelter's Syndrome. They have the sexual organs of both male and female. In fact, I know a U.S. Army Chaplain, who is serving on active duty, who is XXY. I also know a Southern Baptist minister, who is a chimera, who can no longer serve in the ordained ministry because he is a chimera, who likes wearing female clothing.

The average Christian doesn't know these distinctions. They see everything as black and white, male or female. The tendency is to associate these other categories with sexual sins, which is inapproriate unless they are commiting fornication, adultery, or other.



RaeLouiseWall -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 4:53:03 PM)

quote:


I agree that knowing your sex is important for those with some of the above mentioned conditions. I just wanted to be sure that those who are what they are through no fault of their own are not lumped in with those who choose to do what they do.

I guess I should have been more clear -sorry.


I agree with this. The truth here is very few "true" crossdressers or those who fall under the "transgender umbrella" are doing this by choice.

Of all the people I have ever met who are crossdressers, very few, if any have ever claimed that they "do it by choice". Those who may do it by choice, or due to some outside influence during life, there is an option for them just as there is for any one traumatized in life. this is where therapy comes into play. For the "true crossdresser" all the therapy in the world will not help. They may learn to internalize the feelings, but this leads to depression and suicide and other problems. They may also spend enormous amounts of time pleading with God to "heal them", or to take this thing away, or help them to deal with it. I know of no "true crossdresser" who has ever been delivered from this condition.

Most crossdressers know what sex they are and are comfortable with it. There is a fringe element we call transexuals whom say they are "trapped" in the wrong gender. This is often looked upon by mmany crossdressers with a raised eyebrow. It is these people that make it to the talk shows and march in parades and so forth. The typical crossdresser is "normal" in all outward apperance when not crossdressed.



Bro_Shane -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 6:31:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RaeLouiseWall

quote:


I agree that knowing your sex is important for those with some of the above mentioned conditions. I just wanted to be sure that those who are what they are through no fault of their own are not lumped in with those who choose to do what they do.

I guess I should have been more clear -sorry.


I agree with this. The truth here is very few "true" crossdressers or those who fall under the "transgender umbrella" are doing this by choice.

Of all the people I have ever met who are crossdressers, very few, if any have ever claimed that they "do it by choice". Those who may do it by choice, or due to some outside influence during life, there is an option for them just as there is for any one traumatized in life. this is where therapy comes into play. For the "true crossdresser" all the therapy in the world will not help. They may learn to internalize the feelings, but this leads to depression and suicide and other problems. They may also spend enormous amounts of time pleading with God to "heal them", or to take this thing away, or help them to deal with it. I know of no "true crossdresser" who has ever been delivered from this condition.

Most crossdressers know what sex they are and are comfortable with it. There is a fringe element we call transexuals whom say they are "trapped" in the wrong gender. This is often looked upon by mmany crossdressers with a raised eyebrow. It is these people that make it to the talk shows and march in parades and so forth. The typical crossdresser is "normal" in all outward apperance when not crossdressed.


Although I like people to agree with me, I must clarify again. [:D]

Barring some genetic defect or physilogical imbalance that is beyond the control of the person, I am of the opinion that a person who cross dresses does so because they make the choice to do so. When the sex is indeterminate (or both) then, by definition, they can not cross dress because there is nothing to "cross."

I also do not believe that any such thing as "transgendered," as currently defined, exists.



RaeLouiseWall -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 7:19:19 PM)

quote:

Barring some genetic defect or physilogical imbalance that is beyond the control of the person, I am of the opinion that a person who cross dresses does so because they make the choice to do so. When the sex is indeterminate (or both) then, by definition, they can not cross dress because there is nothing to "cross."


Considering your stand:
if scientific evidence proved that crossdresing and transgenderism is biological/genetic/dna triggered, how would that change your viewpoint here since the only outward difference between some intersexed people and a crossdresser may be ambigious genitalia?

For the crossdresser the need to do this is one that typically starts well before the child is sexualy aware of things and before he has a real concept of gender roles in general. Discuss this with any number of people who crossdress. Ask them to tell you when they first realized they were "different". Ask them how they feel physically, mentally and emotionally when crossdressed. Ask them how they feel when they must supress this need.

you will find the vast majority of them will provide close to the same answers. They started having these feelings pre teen years, often around 1st grade or younger. They feel emotionally at peace when dressed as if things are "right" and often feel out of place wearing the clothing of thier birth gender. The blood pessure and stress levels drop to normal levels as well. When they have to supress this act for extended periods (like all people this period is relative to the person) the stress levels increase, often depression forms and they often seek out other means to try to hide from the problem. This often leads to achohol or drug abuse as ways of trying to cope.

The descriptions above really does not come across to me as something that is a choice, but rather a genetic disposition they have in life.



happydays -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 7:36:57 PM)

So is sexual reasignment surgery the only option?

Is the surgery itself wrong? Do most crossdressers want this surgery, or just to wear the clothing they feel comfortable in?

How will the church respond ?



RaeLouiseWall -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 8:00:37 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: happydays

So is sexual reasignment surgery the only option?

Is the surgery itself wrong? Do most crossdressers want this surgery, or just to wear the clothing they feel comfortable in?

How will the church respond ?


good questions
1) no sexual reassignment is not the only option. My understanding is well over 75% of those who are crossdressers have no desire to go that route.

2) is the surgery itself wrong? That is a somewhat complicated answer for many people. Is cosmetic surgery in general wrong? Is "corrective" surgery for a known birth defect wrong? Would anyone who altered his/her body to appear different and thus more comfortable with his/her apperance be wrong? The only issue I see here is one of sexual intimacy post SRS. This is a question for another thread and not one to be dealt with here.

3) No. Most people who crossdress are normally content with the birth gender. Some crossdressers move towards the surgery route, but most do not. Some will, live "fulltime" in the clothing they are comfortable with. The standard of care that is used for those who desire to "change gender" is pretty extensive and is designed to make the procedure difficult to obtain on a whim. there is a lot of theapy involved as well as real life living (living in the chosen gender full time for at least 1 year prior to SRS), hormone therapy etc...

4) most "fundamentalist" churches treat a person who is a crossdreser as if he is gay and living in sin. Neither is nesessaraly true unless he happens to be homosexual (the rate of homosexual crossdressers is about the same with in the crossdressing community as it is in the general population) or living in sin (having not accepted Christ or living in some other form of immoral behavior that would apply). I know of several post operative transexuals, who have attended church with no problems at all until "someone found out". then all of a sudden this person is ostrasized from the church.
This does not happen as much in more "liberal" churches, but not all crossdressers are liberal in theology, so why should they be "forced" to attend a church where they are uncomfortable spiritually becuase the church of preference will not allow them to enter.



miasma -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 8:11:30 PM)

Just to reiterate:

Cross-dresser does not = homosexual.



RaeLouiseWall -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 8:16:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: miasma

Just to reiterate:

Cross-dresser does not = homosexual.


this is very true. Homosexuality is same sex attraction where crossdressing/transgenderism is not. The 2 terms have nothing to do with one another unless a homosexual happens to be a crossdresser.

The therapy offered to both people groups should also different as they are not the same issue at all.



recoveringfrompain -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 8:29:20 PM)

I briefly met a transgendered person a few months ago at work when I working for a costume shop. Anyways, the guy had taken on a female name, his/her dress was both, he/she had on a ladies dress but underneath that, a pair of jeans. His/her hair was natural, long, curled. He/she was pretty nice. That's my only encounter with a crossdresser/transgendered person though.



RaeLouiseWall -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 8:40:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: recoveringfrompain

I briefly met a transgendered person a few months ago at work when I working for a costume shop. Anyways, the guy had taken on a female name, his/her dress was both, he/she had on a ladies dress but underneath that, a pair of jeans. His/her hair was natural, long, curled. He/she was pretty nice. That's my only encounter with a crossdresser/transgendered person though.


I bet you have met dozens of them in all walks of life, you just have not known it. Most crossdressers/transgendered people do not venture out of the saftey of the house for a long time. When they do it is often for such things as costume parties (Halloween etc..) and to attend a gathering of other crossdressers.



Vejay -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 9:40:45 PM)

Those of my friends who are transexual can and do pass (as members of their new gender) after surgery. They would be offended to be described as cross dressers. They feel that they ARE their post surgical gender so they are simply dressing appropriately. Are they wrong? I don't know - I'm not a geneticist, but we know that in many species gender determination is not quite as simple as counting the X and Y chromosomes. Who am I to presume to know them better than they know themselves when science doesn't have all the answers to these questions?

VJ



happydays -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 9:51:32 PM)

Is the surgery correcting a mistake God made?

Of course, the same could be asked of surgery on a baby at birth for cleft palate.



RaeLouiseWall -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/29/2006 10:14:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: happydays

Is the surgery correcting a mistake God made?

Of course, the same could be asked of surgery on a baby at birth for cleft palate.


that is truly a loaded question and you pretty much provided the answer in your final comment.

Personally I do not believe that God has ever made a mistake. He is God. People are born with various defects, physical, mental, emotional all the time. Correcting these various defects via some sort of medical procedure or therapy is part of everyday life.

When people make the assumption that a person who happens to feel that their outward birth gender does not match the inner emotional, mental, spiritual gender is in effect saying "God made a mistake" tends to paint with a wide brush indeed. Some of these folks probably feel that indeed God has made a mistake. Some people believe in God, others do not and there are millions upon millions in between both extremes.

Many Christians who deal with the issue of “GID” or Gender Identity Disorder and have followed the path to GRS (gender reassignment surgery or SRS) have very strong relationships with God. They do not think God made a mistake, but rather has allowed modern medicine and healthcare to provide them with the ability to finally reconcile the mental, emotional and spiritual opposite gender feelings with the physical appearance they need to feel whole.



DaveW -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 6:39:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: uschaplain

In addition, some folks are XXY, which is called Klinefelter's Syndrome. They have the sexual organs of both male and female. In fact, I know a U.S. Army Chaplain, who is serving on active duty, who is XXY. I also know a Southern Baptist minister, who is a chimera, who can no longer serve in the ordained ministry because he is a chimera, who likes wearing female clothing.

I do recall about nuclear nondisjunction which leads to the XXY or XYY chromosome situations. I had read that true hermaphrodism (fully functional male and female plumbing) is almost always from chimerism. I was not aware that XXY could lead to that too - although it does make sense.
quote:

The average Christian doesn't know these distinctions. They see everything as black and white, male or female. The tendency is to associate these other categories with sexual sins, which is inapproriate unless they are commiting fornication, adultery, or other.

You mean people are ignorant? What a revelation!
Why are they ignorant of spiritual matters? Because pastors have not rightly divided the word of truth to their congregants. They have presented these issues in those black and white with no nuance for these situations.

Please explain to me the problem with the SBA minister who is a chimera. Does the SBA have a prohibition on women ministers? Or is it just the so-called crossdressing that removed him/her from the ministry?



uschaplain -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 8:44:53 AM)

quote:

Please explain to me the problem with the SBA minister who is a chimera. Does the SBA have a prohibition on women ministers? Or is it just the so-called crossdressing that removed him/her from the ministry?


I graduated from Golden Gate [Southern] Baptist Theological Seminary in 1989 with a Ph.D., but I'm not Southern Baptist. I'm not sure what the position of the SBA is with regards to women ministers. The best way to have your questions answered is to talk to the national headquarters of the SBA.



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