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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/20/2008 6:29:10 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RedcoatMelloquote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW quote:
ORIGINAL: Schala
I have a friend who is a chimera, raised as male, but with XY/XX chromosomes, both ovaries and testes (2 of each). Which sex are they? Will someone answer this PLEASE!!!??? quote:
i think in that situation, your friend is whatever sex they feel more of indentity with. even if your friend was raised as a male, but identifies more with feeling like a woman, then they could be a woman.
i think it is really up to your friend to decide which sex they identify with the most. I disagree, but more on semantics than anything else. The individual is intersexed. That is hir only possible biological sex. As gender is not based on one's chromosomes, the individual can choose which gender zhe identifies with, but not which sex. The people close to hir should respect hir decision when it comes to gender. The whole gender-vs-sex issue is NEVER addressed in scripture and for that reason I am intentionally side stepping it.
If this person is a believer, who can they marry and not violate the biblical prohibition against homosexuality?
In what ways is the church (as a whole or individual denominations and congregations) preparing itself to deal with this issue?
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/20/2008 8:22:30 AM
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jkdjr25
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
zam, I think you're being deliberately obtuse about this. I've already said that it's not about just "thinking" that you're the opposite gender, it's the functionality of their brain. As in it is something they just know at an insticutal level.
No. I have asked you some questions and you have not answered anything. All you have done is provided more opinion to support you opinion. What source do you use to support your opinion?
*face palm*
Alright, you really want to know? I use common sense to back up my opinion. I use sixteen years of searching my own feelings on the matter. I use sixteen years of praying about the matter. I use the various shows about gender that I've watched on the National Geographic channel and sixteen years worth of reading numerous books and magazine articles in various libraries. In all that time God has never led me to think differently than I do now about this.
Now. Back. Off.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/20/2008 8:27:10 AM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 653
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From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: RedcoatMelloquote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW quote:
ORIGINAL: Schala
I have a friend who is a chimera, raised as male, but with XY/XX chromosomes, both ovaries and testes (2 of each). Which sex are they? Will someone answer this PLEASE!!!??? quote:
i think in that situation, your friend is whatever sex they feel more of indentity with. even if your friend was raised as a male, but identifies more with feeling like a woman, then they could be a woman.
i think it is really up to your friend to decide which sex they identify with the most. I disagree, but more on semantics than anything else. The individual is intersexed. That is hir only possible biological sex. As gender is not based on one's chromosomes, the individual can choose which gender zhe identifies with, but not which sex. The people close to hir should respect hir decision when it comes to gender. The whole gender-vs-sex issue is NEVER addressed in scripture and for that reason I am intentionally side stepping it.
If this person is a believer, who can they marry and not violate the biblical prohibition against homosexuality?
In what ways is the church (as a whole or individual denominations and congregations) preparing itself to deal with this issue?
That's part of the problem really. The Church doesn't prepare itself for problems like that. Any time an issues comes up that's even remotely related to sex they circle the wagons and refuse to talk about it.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/20/2008 11:34:48 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3554
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
That's part of the problem really. The Church doesn't prepare itself for problems like that. Any time an issues comes up that's even remotely related to sex they circle the wagons and refuse to talk about it. And when they don't, (i.e. someone has the audacity to speak up in a public way on sex) they get blasted from all sides for it. Take the thread about the pastor in FLA that wanted the married couples in his church to be intimate every day for 30 days and the singles to be absinant for 30 days. You'da thought he was advocating getting "666" tattoos or something the way some reacted....
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/20/2008 11:48:18 AM
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jkdjr25
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
That's part of the problem really. The Church doesn't prepare itself for problems like that. Any time an issues comes up that's even remotely related to sex they circle the wagons and refuse to talk about it. And when they don't, (i.e. someone has the audacity to speak up in a public way on sex) they get blasted from all sides for it. Take the thread about the pastor in FLA that wanted the married couples in his church to be intimate every day for 30 days and the singles to be absinant for 30 days. You'da thought he was advocating getting "666" tattoos or something the way some reacted....
That's a major part of the problem. We have to be able to talk about these things as adults. We also have to realize that gender and sex are two different issues. They do intersect at times but they're largely seperate.
I've never talked about a lot of my own issues with a pastor because of some things that I was told by one as a kid and a massive betrayal by one. (While never mentioning my name he chastised the entire school in public for how a lot of students were treating me. I'd mentioned it in confidence and it angered me that he had the temerity to go public like that. Maybe I took it wrong but at the time I felt it was a betrayal)
I'll be honest. I have some gender issues of my own and it's not something I talk about that much. I repress everything precisely because of a number of the attitudes that have been expressed here on the board.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/20/2008 12:09:59 PM
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GeorgiaNerd
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quote:
That's part of the problem really. The Church doesn't prepare itself for problems like that. Any time an issues comes up that's even remotely related to sex they circle the wagons and refuse to talk about it.
Correct. Since the issue is not one addressed in the Bible, the Church tends to ignore it, or worse. A friend of mine is intersexual, and her church denied her membership because of it. She could not help being born with deformed genitalia.
The whole gender-sex-sexuality relationship is one that was not know in Biblical times, so issues regarding this topic are not discussed. Which is of course is why it is so hard for Christians to agree on them. However, to address the homosexuality issue of an intersexed individual, the relationship between those three things should be examined. I see several ways in which the issue can be viewed. This particular individual has the genes and parts of both male and female, and yet is neither fully male or female. This puts the Church in a predicament. If the Church sees the individual as both male and female, then zhe is both heterosexual and homosexual at the same time. So, unless the individual is asexual (as many intersexed persons are), there is no way for the hir to avoid being considered homosexual (or heterosexual). If the Church considers the individual to be neither male or female, then the individual is never heterosexual or homosexual. Zhe can never be considered for heterosexual union, but at the same time is never violate any rules against homosexuality.
The other thing that the Church can do is recognize the individual by hir gender identity, since hir biological sex is neither male or female. If zhe identifies as male or more masculine, then he can date and potentially marry a female, though she must be aware that he is most likely infertile. The opposite can be said for one that identifies as female or more feminine. However, if this were the case, the Church would have to rethink it's position on transexuals and transgendered individuals and sexuality because they would claim that they should get the same treatment as the intersexed.
So, that's a pretty long and complicated answer to "we don't know."
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/20/2008 12:11:43 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 653
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RedcoatMello
quote:
That's part of the problem really. The Church doesn't prepare itself for problems like that. Any time an issues comes up that's even remotely related to sex they circle the wagons and refuse to talk about it.
Correct. Since the issue is not one addressed in the Bible, the Church tends to ignore it, or worse. A friend of mine is intersexual, and her church denied her membership because of it. She could not help being born with deformed genitalia.
The whole gender-sex-sexuality relationship is one that was not know in Biblical times, so issues regarding this topic are not discussed. Which is of course is why it is so hard for Christians to agree on them. However, to address the homosexuality issue of an intersexed individual, the relationship between those three things should be examined. I see several ways in which the issue can be viewed. This particular individual has the genes and parts of both male and female, and yet is neither fully male or female. This puts the Church in a predicament. If the Church sees the individual as both male and female, then zhe is both heterosexual and homosexual at the same time. So, unless the individual is asexual (as many intersexed persons are), there is no way for the hir to avoid being considered homosexual (or heterosexual). If the Church considers the individual to be neither male or female, then the individual is never heterosexual or homosexual. Zhe can never be considered for heterosexual union, but at the same time is never violate any rules against homosexuality.
The other thing that the Church can do is recognize the individual by hir gender identity, since hir biological sex is neither male or female. If zhe identifies as male or more masculine, then he can date and potentially marry a female, though she must be aware that he is most likely infertile. The opposite can be said for one that identifies as female or more feminine. However, if this were the case, the Church would have to rethink it's position on transexuals and transgendered individuals and sexuality because they would claim that they should get the same treatment as the intersexed.
So, that's a pretty long and complicated answer to "we don't know."
*nods*
I agree. Treat the individual as an individual. Not much else a person can really do.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/20/2008 12:16:34 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1065
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
zam, I think you're being deliberately obtuse about this. I've already said that it's not about just "thinking" that you're the opposite gender, it's the functionality of their brain. As in it is something they just know at an insticutal level.
No. I have asked you some questions and you have not answered anything. All you have done is provided more opinion to support you opinion. What source do you use to support your opinion?
*face palm*
Alright, you really want to know? I use common sense to back up my opinion. I use sixteen years of searching my own feelings on the matter. I use sixteen years of praying about the matter. I use the various shows about gender that I've watched on the National Geographic channel and sixteen years worth of reading numerous books and magazine articles in various libraries. In all that time God has never led me to think differently than I do now about this.
Now. Back. Off.
Common sense? What's common sense to one is foolishness to another. 16 years of searching your own feelings? You are your own guide? TV as a resource? The gospel according to National Geographic. What abvout the Bible? Do you use that as guide? This is a Christian forum, afterall. It seems you use the everchanging resources of the world while conveniently ignoring the never changing Word of God.
Why should I back off? You made the statement that you don't think transgenderism is a sin. I want to know how you come to the conclusion other than emotional reasoning and common sense.
quote:
That's part of the problem really. The Church doesn't prepare itself for problems like that. Any time an issues comes up that's even remotely related to sex they circle the wagons and refuse to talk about it.
This has been part of the problem, however, there is change in the air. The Bible has a lot to say about sex and realtionships. There are many in the Christian community who are beginning to deal directly with these issues and address them directly from scripture.
quote:
I'll be honest. I have some gender issues of my own and it's not something I talk about that much. I repress everything precisely because of a number of the attitudes that have been expressed here on the board.
Perhaps you should talk about it. It may help you resolve the issues and put them in the past.
_____________________________
You can't strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
A. Lincoln
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/20/2008 12:16:47 PM
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GeorgiaNerd
Posts: 244
Joined: 9/28/2007
From: UGA... GO DAWGS!
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quote:
I'll be honest. I have some gender issues of my own and it's not something I talk about that much. I repress everything precisely because of a number of the attitudes that have been expressed here on the board.
Me too. On the outside I'm all female, but I tend to act and think in a masculine way. Being genderqueer is more common than the Church would like to think, and they tend to discriminate for things as simple and pointless as males who wear the color pink. The Church needs to accept gender and sex as two distinct yet related entities.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/20/2008 12:20:25 PM
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GeorgiaNerd
Posts: 244
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From: UGA... GO DAWGS!
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quote:
Why should I back off? You made the statement that you don't think transgenderism is a sin. I want to know how you come to the conclusion other than emotional reasoning and common sense.
I haven't read the whole thread, but is transgenderism or being genderqueer ever discussed as a sin in the Bible? I don't recall it ever being mentioned. If it's not mentioned, how else is someone supposed to determine if it is sinful or not?
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/20/2008 12:24:09 PM
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jkdjr25
Posts: 653
Joined: 2/19/2008
From: Michigan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
ORIGINAL: jkdjr25
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
zam, I think you're being deliberately obtuse about this. I've already said that it's not about just "thinking" that you're the opposite gender, it's the functionality of their brain. As in it is something they just know at an insticutal level.
No. I have asked you some questions and you have not answered anything. All you have done is provided more opinion to support you opinion. What source do you use to support your opinion?
*face palm*
Alright, you really want to know? I use common sense to back up my opinion. I use sixteen years of searching my own feelings on the matter. I use sixteen years of praying about the matter. I use the various shows about gender that I've watched on the National Geographic channel and sixteen years worth of reading numerous books and magazine articles in various libraries. In all that time God has never led me to think differently than I do now about this.
Now. Back. Off.
Common sense? What's common sense to one is foolishness to another. 16 years of searching your own feelings? You are your own guide? TV as a resource? The gospel according to National Geographic. What abvout the Bible? Do you use that as guide? This is a Christian forum, afterall. It seems you use the everchanging resources of the world while conveniently ignoring the never changing Word of God.
Why should I back off? You made the statement that you don't think transgenderism is a sin. I want to know how you come to the conclusion other than emotional reasoning and common sense.
quote:
That's part of the problem really. The Church doesn't prepare itself for problems like that. Any time an issues comes up that's even remotely related to sex they circle the wagons and refuse to talk about it.
This has been part of the problem, however, there is change in the air. The Bible has a lot to say about sex and realtionships. There are many in the Christian community who are beginning to deal directly with these issues and address them directly from scripture.
quote:
I'll be honest. I have some gender issues of my own and it's not something I talk about that much. I repress everything precisely because of a number of the attitudes that have been expressed here on the board.
Perhaps you should talk about it. It may help you resolve the issues and put them in the past.
How dare you. How dare you question my walk with the Almighty because I refuse to adhere to YOUR interpretation. Just who do you think you are? I'll humor your arrogance if only to give it the colossal smack down it needs.
Yes I've prayed about it. I've prayed about it, meditated on it and cried out to God for half my blasted life about this. The revelation I got was this. "jk" God said "Your outside is less important to Me than your inside"
You haven't given a single Biblical reason WHY transgenderism is a sin and I'm calling you on it. The verse in Deurteronomy has been covered.
Now I'm going to tell you again to back off of me.
_____________________________
I reject your reality and subsitute my own.- Adam Savage, Mythbusters
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/20/2008 1:03:25 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 3554
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RedcoatMello
If it's not mentioned, how else is someone supposed to determine if it is sinful or not? I suppose the same way they determined that owning a deck of playing cards or a pair of dice was sinful, as was going to the movies and owning a television set.
There are always those who would try to make a one-size-fits-all decision for time and eternity.
"T'aint necessarily so!"
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/20/2008 1:40:02 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/20/2008 1:48:10 PM
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Child4Jesus
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It depends on what category of transgender we are talking about. Are we talking about people who are born male/female but feel they are born the wrong gender and get surgery to correct this?
This I believe is sinful. Basically the person is saying God made a mistake and I have to correct it. I a man but I want to be a woman so I will get my external look changed to look as such. Take hormones and the like.
They go on to life as a woman and some marry men. Is this not homosexual? A man who marries someone knowing that person had a sex change is he not homosexual? A man who had a sex change and doesn't tell a man they are in a relationship with that they are in fact male is this not the sin of deceit?
< Message edited by Child4Jesus -- 3/20/2008 2:02:05 PM >
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/20/2008 5:19:03 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
How dare you. How dare you question my walk with the Almighty because I refuse to adhere to YOUR interpretation. Just who do you think you are? I'll humor your arrogance if only to give it the colossal smack down it needs.
Where did I question your walk with God? I asked you some questions about supporting your "opinion" and you have not answered them. You have responded with more emotional reasoning, nothing that can give your opinion a solid foundation. This has nothing to do with my interpretation. My questions have been to get you to examine why you believe what you do and to be able to articulate it.
_____________________________
You can't strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
A. Lincoln
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/20/2008 5:45:38 PM
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Bluethread
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Joined: 11/8/2007
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quote:
jkdjr25:
Blue you have yet to actually point to a single scripture that covers the issues we've been talking about. If you mention the verse in Deuteronomy I'll point you to the earlier posts by uschaplain that explained the Hebraic terminology and what it means.
If you are talking about this thread, I don't recall making a biblical argument without quoting Scripture. If I did please, point it out and I will provide the Scripture or apologize. Most of my points have been appeals to reason. Had you merely attributed Adonai's statement to Yeshua, I would not have mentioned anything. The reason I corrected your biblical reference was because it was on point. You said let's be reasonable, as Adonai asks ud to. Therefore, I showed what Adonai considers reasonable by properly quoting the verse to which you refered.
Also, I am not talking to uschaplain. I am discussing it with you. If I believe something, I state it or quote someone in context who says it better than I. I never expect to win an argument by refering someone to talk to someone else.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/20/2008 5:54:12 PM
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solo_soprano22
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quote:
I understand what you are saying. I think that sometimes Christians can be very closed minded, especially with things they don't understand. Not just Christians, most humans tend to close their minds when they come across something hard to wrap their minds around. I am not denying that biolgical factors exist when it comes to behavioral issues. My concern about the constant focus on the bilogy/physiology of issues regarding behavior is that the spiritual gets ignored or dismissed. As I told you in the homosexuality thread, we have control over our thought lives. Ultimately, we have to surrender our thoughts to something. Do we surrender them to Christ? Or, do we surrender them to human reasoning?
I also wanted to add that a couple of comments have been made indicating that I may be condemning people for their problems. Not the case. It's not my job to condemn. My job is to love others. Love does not mean that I stand by and allow others to continue in their destructive ways. Love means that I care enough to ask questions and challenge thoughts, attitudes, values and beliefs so as to help people know and grow in Christ.
Yes, but I never agreed with you that we can control our thoughts all the time. Most Christians I know think that you can control your choices also, no matter how messed up your biology is. I disagree, but on an individual basis.
I know I mentioned condemnation in one of my other posts. I didn't mean you specifically, even if it seemed that way. I'm thinking about it on a large scale-- Christianity altogether.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/20/2008 6:24:59 PM
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zamdad
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quote:
ORIGINAL: solo_soprano22
quote:
I understand what you are saying. I think that sometimes Christians can be very closed minded, especially with things they don't understand. Not just Christians, most humans tend to close their minds when they come across something hard to wrap their minds around. I am not denying that biolgical factors exist when it comes to behavioral issues. My concern about the constant focus on the bilogy/physiology of issues regarding behavior is that the spiritual gets ignored or dismissed. As I told you in the homosexuality thread, we have control over our thought lives. Ultimately, we have to surrender our thoughts to something. Do we surrender them to Christ? Or, do we surrender them to human reasoning?
I also wanted to add that a couple of comments have been made indicating that I may be condemning people for their problems. Not the case. It's not my job to condemn. My job is to love others. Love does not mean that I stand by and allow others to continue in their destructive ways. Love means that I care enough to ask questions and challenge thoughts, attitudes, values and beliefs so as to help people know and grow in Christ.
Yes, but I never agreed with you that we can control our thoughts all the time. Most Christians I know think that you can control your choices also, no matter how messed up your biology is. I disagree, but on an individual basis.
I know I mentioned condemnation in one of my other posts. I didn't mean you specifically, even if it seemed that way. I'm thinking about it on a large scale-- Christianity altogether.
I think that this is where we, all too often, talk past one another rather than to one another. When we generalize and categorize, we paint with too broad a brush. We fail to minister to (love) individuals because we get focused on a bigger picture. Even the academic community does this. They study characteristics and lump them into groups/categories to fit our lunderstanding. We, the church, are no better. We want to understand human behavior in terms that are easier for us to wrap our minds around.
Much of the work I've done has been with convicted sex offenders. As a group, they are the most misunderstood and discriminated against groups ever. I often get asked if "they" are cureable, if "they" will ever be able to change. My response has been that "they" are a group of individuals who have very different crimes despite the fact that the crime of conviction may have the same name and statute number. Many of the individuals I've worked with have made radical changes to their lives while others are bent on continuing to live the same destructive way.
As far as some people not being able to control their biological/chemical abnormalities. I agree that there are some people, such as severe schizophrenics, that are unable to control their thoughts and that medication can help. But, these case are very rare. My concern is, when it comes to sin issues, that all too often science and the medical community want to treat the chemical/biological as opposed to treating the person. Essentially, and this is something I learned from an inmate, we teach people how to manage sin instead of killing sin.
_____________________________
You can't strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
A. Lincoln
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/29/2008 9:57:42 AM
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erikaleigh
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OK, Here is my .02..... I am 41 years old and have been a cross dresser since I was 11. I have been a born again spirit filled FAITHFUL christian for 19 of those years. I struggled with this for years trying to stop and could never do it. I prayed daily for this thorn to be removed from my side and it was not (sound familiar) and one day I dropped to my knees and said GOD this whole situation is yours, I cant do this on my own. I have since told my wife about being a cross dresser and she is understaning of the issue but not thrilled about it, never the less its not a big enough issue that she is worried about our relationship. I have always been faithful to her and she to me. That being said, my cross dressing is just part of me and something that I enjoy. When I get dressed up and go out I have a great time shopping and just plain having fun and I feel more comfortable that I EVER do when I am in guy mode (which is 99% of the time). I am 100% heterosexual and that will never change. I do not want surgery, hormones, or anything like that.
OK, now about the church.... I grew up in the world and never darkened the door of a church until I got saved. Since then I have been in church pretty much every week (most of the time 3 times a week) with the exception of vacations and the like for the last 19 years. I am here to tell you there sadly seems to be more judgemental, backbiting, un-trustworthy people in the church than there is in the world. I am not perfect by any means, but why is it that someone can tell me that I am wrong for playing dress up, when they themselves are no more better than me? Have you ever stolen a pen? got paid cash for something and not reported it to the tax man? commited murder? In Gods eyes, these are all the same and all SIN.... one is not worse that the other!!!! And yet people are so quick to judge someone for the clothes they wear and are not commiting any sin while wearing these clothes?
Let he without sin cast the first stone is what the bible says. Judge not lest ye be judged.
When the church (people) can get past all of the little things that DONT matter and start helping people out of love WITHOUT any alterior motives, then we as a church would present outselves as Christ would want us to. Jesus himself hung out with the people that most wouldnt even associate with, why should we be any different? Cross dressers need the love of Christ too and should not be judged for their outward appearance, but for whats inside!!!
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/29/2008 1:05:03 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2336
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
Status: offline
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quote:
As far as some people not being able to control their biological/chemical abnormalities. I agree that there are some people, such as severe schizophrenics, that are unable to control their thoughts and that medication can help. But, these case are very rare. My concern is, when it comes to sin issues, that all too often science and the medical community want to treat the chemical/biological as opposed to treating the person. Essentially, and this is something I learned from an inmate, we teach people how to manage sin instead of killing sin.
But I disagree. I don't think this is as rare as people want to believe. I've seen many times where people really had a temporary problem due to neuro. problems, but people condemn them because all they see is the wrong they did when they were sick. The "why" isn't taken into account, although they were literally crazy at the time. And I've also seen people try to plead insanity that were in their right minds...just trying to get out of punishment. So I can see it as an excuse, but it is also valid. It just depends on which is true.
Especially with temporary mental disturbances that may last for a little while, but the person has done terrible things by the time they're well. I've seen this also, in my experiences. Sometimes just from reading what you say, you want to base your opinions on what you've seen and dealt with in others, but I don't understand why others can't do this in their realm of study or occupation. Many times if I say what I've seen, you just come back with what you've seen as a reason why you're "right." No one is saying that sin is never a choice; I'm saying it's not always a choice like people try to make it sound-- not to someone who's disturbed to the point of doing something they would not do if they weren't sick.
I have no idea what's going on in a person's body, but I know God will take into account such things (or rather, he looks at the heart). Humans (IMO) don't do this much. If they did it for a wrong reason, that's not the same as doing it because you're insane due to something out of your control. Some people see it the same; I'm saying I don't.
I see how many sexuality issues can be the same way, including this.
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
"Sometimes I Wonder Why" (Blog entry)
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/29/2008 2:25:13 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1065
Joined: 4/8/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
I don't think this is as rare as people want to believe. I've seen many times where people really had a temporary problem due to neuro. problems, but people condemn them because all they see is the wrong they did when they were sick. The "why" isn't taken into account, although they were literally crazy at the time. And I've also seen people try to plead insanity that were in their right minds...just trying to get out of punishment. So I can see it as an excuse, but it is also valid. It just depends on which is true.
How do we determine which is true and which is not?
quote:
Sometimes just from reading what you say, you want to base your opinions on what you've seen and dealt with in others, but I don't understand why others can't do this in their realm of study or occupation. Many times if I say what I've seen, you just come back with what you've seen as a reason why you're "right."
I don't want to discount your experience. I've been left with the impression that you are a college student, or recent graduate, and that much of the experience you've related is academic. I know you have related some experiences with some relatives and other persons you've seen. All any of us have to go on is our experience with an issue.
Perhaps I don't communicate my experience with the issue well enough. Or, others don't understand because their experience does not mesh with mine. I feel I have some insight into this issue having worked extensively with sex offenders for five years. Yes, I've done much academic research and continue to delve into academia. But, I've also been on the line having to submit reports to the court making recommendations for release of people who have been arrested as a result of their behavior for all sorts of crimes. I have come face to face with many severely mentally disturbed people and twice as many who want to be in order to get out of the trouble they find themselves in.
_____________________________
You can't strengthen the weak by weakening the strong.
A. Lincoln
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 3/30/2008 1:47:57 PM
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car2462
Posts: 15
Joined: 10/16/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
Child4Jesus said: It depends on what category of transgender we are talking about. Are we talking about people who are born male/female but feel they are born the wrong gender and get surgery to correct this?
This I believe is sinful. Basically the person is saying God made a mistake and I have to correct it. I a man but I want to be a woman so I will get my external look changed to look as such. Take hormones and the like.
They go on to life as a woman and some marry men. Is this not homosexual? A man who marries someone knowing that person had a sex change is he not homosexual? A man who had a sex change and doesn't tell a man they are in a relationship with that they are in fact male is this not the sin of deceit?
Hello,
Instead of taking up space by re-writing about who I am please see posts 119 and 120.
The first thing I would like to say is that “I am saying that God made a mistake” (from your reply) and in answering to that I will say unequivocally, beyond a shadow of a doubt (not sure how much stronger I can state this) that GOD does not and has never made a mistake. If HE did then HE is not GOD and I know that HE does not make mistakes.
So? What happened? Well I offer up 3 verses:
Rom. 5:12 - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom. 8:20 - For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
and
Rom. 8:21 - Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.
Didn't God design a perfect world where there would be no defects or diseases?
Then what happened?
Well, let's look at those verses above.
What GOD made in the creation was perfect because HE said it in Gen. 1:31 - And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
Then came along Adam and his sin which resulted in spiritual and physical death to every man to follow (Rom. 5:12). To make it worse it was not just man but the whole of creation and nature became subjected to the consequences of sin. (Rom 8:20).But it was not just man himself which was affected; the perfect world that God had created was also corrupted- all of nature became subjected to the consequences of sin. Rom 8:20.
In answer to your suggestion that I am homosexual let me say the following:
I am not homosexual.
I am not transgendered.
I am not transsexual.
I am a woman.
Did GOD know that this would happen? Absolutely.
Did GOD provide a means to correct this? Absolutely.
With the above said may I direct you to 2 web sites that may or may help:
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=727D7A18-E7F2-99DF-306CFA4718A57613&page=1
http://cloud.prohosting.com/benjsynd/benjamin/causes.html
Thank You For Your Time.
Carolyn
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