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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/27/2008 5:23:37 PM
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tracy1242
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracy1242
As for those who have a different arrangement of sex chromosomes, well, I would go with whatever is between the legs, to put it bluntly.
And you came to this conclusion how? You realize gender is more than the genitalia, right?
Okay, let's get into that a little more....
Yes, I know there is a little bit more to gender than genitalia, but it is the result of the DNA (chromosomes) that cause the cells to align the way they do and therefore create the genitals that we each have. Without getting into the people who are born with indistinguishable genitals right now, yes go with what is between your legs to determine your sex. It's not that confusing.
How do I come to that conclusion, b/c it is a lot easier than second guessing your sex, taking hormones which are unsafe and make you physically ill, convincing the world you are the other sex when you still look like a man (large hands, large feet, wider shoulders, masculine features, etc.). Also, you might want to look into the suicide rates of cross-dressers/tg in general like 25% higher. You also might consider that it's sort of a one way street (no turning back) and once mutilated the person who pursued the sex change still may be unhappy and no doubt in pursuit of things to make him happy. We are to seek after the Lord by reading his Word and praying and worshiping Him.
Here is another thing to consider when someone decides they are really the other sex trapped in the wrong body and wanting to be the other sex, their family. A man who has made a life as a man and taken a wife and made children with her deciding to become now the other sex.... that is wrong on so many levels.
It causes basically a death in the family, the loss of a father and husband. Therefore, I would tell any cross-dresser/tg that they should check in their britches and see what God put their when they are in doubt. It will be a whole lot easier for the rest of us if they do. I especially think that a man who has already spread his seed to go and change his sex in pursuit of his fantasy is extremely selfish. If that in itself does not reveal the true evil nature and origin of this particular sinful behavior I don't know what does.
For what Godly purpose would a person change their sex? How does that bring glory to God? That is what we are called to do.
This is the devil's trickery and he is feminizing our men, even those who do not cross-dress, etc. so we will lack male leadership.
As a person who married to a man who struggles with this issue I am intimately familiar with the struggles it causes for him. He has these feelings, but it does not line up with the other things in his life that he wants, like wife and family.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/27/2008 5:54:04 PM
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HHV5
Posts: 159
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracy1242
quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracy1242
As for those who have a different arrangement of sex chromosomes, well, I would go with whatever is between the legs, to put it bluntly.
And you came to this conclusion how? You realize gender is more than the genitalia, right?
Okay, let's get into that a little more....
Yes, I know there is a little bit more to gender than genitalia, but it is the result of the DNA (chromosomes) that cause the cells to align the way they do and therefore create the genitals that we each have. Without getting into the people who are born with indistinguishable genitals right now, yes go with what is between your legs to determine your sex. It's not that confusing.
If you understand that gender is more than the genitalia, then why reduce gender to the genitalia? (We're talking about those with chromosomal irregularities.) Let's say you're XXY and have both masculine and feminine traits. Ultimately it is up to the individual to identify as a gender. It's not up to you to arbitrarily say, "Go with whatever is between the legs," and "It's not that confusing" because it is not a black-and-white situation.
quote:
A man who has made a life as a man and taken a wife and made children with her deciding to become now the other sex.... that is wrong on so many levels.
I completely agree with this.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/27/2008 7:16:14 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2472
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quote:
Yes, I know there is a little bit more to gender than genitalia, but it is the result of the DNA (chromosomes) that cause the cells to align the way they do and therefore create the genitals that we each have. Without getting into the people who are born with indistinguishable genitals right now, yes go with what is between your legs to determine your sex. It's not that confusing.
But it's not that simple, and that's what some people seem to miss all the time.
A man can have XY chromosomes, but female genitals. Therefore, they are males on the inside and female on the outside. I understand there are many combinations of things that can be wrong with a person in this manner, but it's not as simple as genitalia=sex of the person. And using that alone could be contrary to what the person truly is. It's not all black and white.
(Part of) It with (genetic males/phenotypic females) has to do with chromosomes and androgens (or androgen insensitivity during development). I know some males especially have AIS and come out with the wrong genitals. Knowing that females develop because of a lack of testosterone (but not because of the presence of estrogen) during gestation might help to think about it.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/28/2008 6:37:57 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4106
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
Back in the day, people thought all psychological disorders (ie: schizophrenia) were results of demons. Now we know there are biological causes. Again, the secular western world view rears its ugly head with all of its anti-supernaturalism.
While the demonic may not be involved in all cases of mental illness or psycological disorder, I would submit to you that it is much more often the case than not. The demonic influence can influence the "biological causes."
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/28/2008 9:31:06 AM
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HHV5
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
Back in the day, people thought all psychological disorders (ie: schizophrenia) were results of demons. Now we know there are biological causes. Again, the secular western world view rears its ugly head with all of its anti-supernaturalism.
While the demonic may not be involved in all cases of mental illness or psycological disorder, I would submit to you that it is much more often the case than not. The demonic influence can influence the "biological causes."
See bold text.
And how do you know "it is much more often the case than not"? Is blindness caused mostly by demonic influence? Is deafness? Is paralysis? Is meningitis? Is diabetes? Is synesthesia?
I believe that demonic influences can result in physiological manifestations, but how do you differentiate between those that are purely biological and those that are demonic? Jesus said doctors are needed when the occasion necessitates, so clearly not all physical ailments have demonic sources.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/28/2008 9:45:45 AM
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stampinlady
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quote:
But it's not that simple, and that's what some people seem to miss all the time.
I agree. The little bit of Oprah I saw that had intersexed people on was really eye opening. I just kept reminding myself that these are God's creations and wanted to hug my children even hearder and thanked God. Parenting can be hard enough and then add these differances.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/28/2008 10:09:52 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4106
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quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
And how do you know "it is much more often the case than not"? Is blindness caused mostly by demonic influence? Is deafness? Is paralysis? Is meningitis? Is diabetes? Is synesthesia?
I believe that demonic influences can result in physiological manifestations, but how do you differentiate between those that are purely biological and those that are demonic? Jesus said doctors are needed when the occasion necessitates, so clearly not all physical ailments have demonic sources. Excelent point. I agree that not every problem is demonic.
That is why the gift of Descerning of spirits (1 Cor 12.10) is necessary. That is the ONLY WAY to tell what is happening. The demonic is only seen by us when it wishes to be seen or when the Holy Spirit reveals it thru this gift.
We find in the gospels that various physical maladies were attributed to the demonic:
mute Matt 9.32, Luke 11.14
blind and mute Matt 12.22
mental illness Matt 17.15
convulsions Mark 1.26, Luke 9.42
deaf and mute Mark 9.25
fever Luke 4.39
Unusual strength Luke 8.29
Just because many ailments are NOT demonic in origin or operation does not negate the ones that are. If you are not functional in Discerning of spirits they will look exactly the same.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/28/2008 10:51:35 AM
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HHV5
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
And how do you know "it is much more often the case than not"? Is blindness caused mostly by demonic influence? Is deafness? Is paralysis? Is meningitis? Is diabetes? Is synesthesia?
I believe that demonic influences can result in physiological manifestations, but how do you differentiate between those that are purely biological and those that are demonic? Jesus said doctors are needed when the occasion necessitates, so clearly not all physical ailments have demonic sources. Excelent point. I agree that not every problem is demonic.
That is why the gift of Descerning of spirits (1 Cor 12.10) is necessary. That is the ONLY WAY to tell what is happening. The demonic is only seen by us when it wishes to be seen or when the Holy Spirit reveals it thru this gift.
We find in the gospels that various physical maladies were attributed to the demonic:
mute Matt 9.32, Luke 11.14
blind and mute Matt 12.22
mental illness Matt 17.15
convulsions Mark 1.26, Luke 9.42
deaf and mute Mark 9.25
fever Luke 4.39
Unusual strength Luke 8.29
Just because many ailments are NOT demonic in origin or operation does not negate the ones that are. If you are not functional in Discerning of spirits they will look exactly the same.
So you see why "Again, the secular western world view rears its ugly head with all of its anti-supernaturalism" irked me.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/28/2008 12:44:57 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4106
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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I am confused. Do you believe that many if not a majority of mental illnesses (including transgenderism and crossdressing) can have a demonic element, or not? From the tone of your previous post I thought you took the position that it was all organic.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/28/2008 1:12:01 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2472
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stampinlady
quote:
But it's not that simple, and that's what some people seem to miss all the time.
I agree. The little bit of Oprah I saw that had intersexed people on was really eye opening. I just kept reminding myself that these are God's creations and wanted to hug my children even hearder and thanked God. Parenting can be hard enough and then add these differances.
I saw a few on Dr. Phil a while back. What gets me is the number of things that can go wrong in development to make someone come out that way.... and honestly, I don't see why it doesn't happen more than we know about (although I think some have a problem and just don't know the genes don't agree with the parts). Can't say I adore embryology, but it's interesting study. (Yeah, I know there are some things that can happen after the embryo forms too.)
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/28/2008 4:26:19 PM
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HHV5
Posts: 159
Joined: 7/20/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
I am confused. Do you believe that many if not a majority of mental illnesses (including transgenderism and crossdressing) can have a demonic element, or not?
Refer back to the bolded text.
All illnesses, mental or physical, CAN have demonic influences. The question is, DO most illnesses have demonic influences?
I have no idea if the majority of mental illnesses have demonic origins. I do know that it is possible. Beyond that, I don't think anyone knows the extent, unless you have the gift of discernment to evaluate each case.
quote:
From the tone of your previous post I thought you took the position that it was all organic.
Then I urge you to read more carefully.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/28/2008 5:35:23 PM
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davemiller7
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Joined: 3/5/2008
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We have some really good authorities mentioned here - Oprah and Dr. Phil. I think someone should be able to come up with better sources of information than those two.
-Dave
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/28/2008 9:17:03 PM
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tracy1242
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okay so we agree on some of that, but I don't think we can put people who have their different chromosomes in the same class with an XY or XX crossdresser.
I would say though that in either case they should hold to their commitments if they started a family.
As for what they do with their bodies if they aren't married, well it would be a question of whether or not it is a sin in the case of someone who is say not able to tell the difference in their genitals and their chromosomes are maybe different than what mom and dad raised them as. I don't know if that is a sin or not, some things we just don't have the wisdom to figure out.
I do say, that would be really hard thing to be afflicted with and it is different than the cross-dresser or transexual who just thinks they are the other sex even though all other things do not point to that.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/29/2008 7:05:40 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4106
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tracy1242
I don't think we can put people who have their different chromosomes in the same class with an XY or XX crossdresser. I completely agree with this.quote:
I would say though that in either case they should hold to their commitments if they started a family. I am not so sure about this. If the case is either chimearism or non-disjunction (XXY, XYY, etc) would marrying someone with "normal" chromosomes be considered a homosexual relationship? If so, then the marriage would be invalid and sinful. quote:
As for what they do with their bodies if they aren't married, well it would be a question of whether or not it is a sin in the case of someone who is say not able to tell the difference in their genitals and their chromosomes are maybe different than what mom and dad raised them as. I don't know if that is a sin or not, some things we just don't have the wisdom to figure out. Having sex with someone; gay, straight or other; outside of marriage is sin, period. As to who they CAN marry and be morally good is a serious question that we need to come up with an answer to. We cannot assume that these people all have a gift of celebacy. quote:
I do say, that would be really hard thing to be afflicted with and it is different than the cross-dresser or transexual who just thinks they are the other sex even though all other things do not point to that. If I had that problem, feeling like I was stuck in the wrong body, I would check to see if I were a chimera. Since about 50% of all sets of fraternal twins are male/female, it would stand to reason that the M/F combination would also be about half of all chimearas. Some have said that one twin "dies" when absorbed by the other, but does it really? I am not so sure. I suppose it could be possible that each soul/spirit is still alive in the combined body.
Could that be the case in some individuals?
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/29/2008 9:02:56 AM
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HHV5
Posts: 159
Joined: 7/20/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracy1242
I don't think we can put people who have their different chromosomes in the same class with an XY or XX crossdresser. I completely agree with this.quote:
I would say though that in either case they should hold to their commitments if they started a family. I am not so sure about this. If the case is either chimearism or non-disjunction (XXY, XYY, etc) would marrying someone with "normal" chromosomes be considered a homosexual relationship? If so, then the marriage would be invalid and sinful.
If one identifies as a certain gender for his/her lifetime and marries the opposite sex, then finds out that his or her chromosomal arrangement is different, I don't know if God would consider that "invalid and sinful". So by your definition, someone with XXY who has both masculine and feminine traits cannot get married because any union would be homosexual?
quote:
As for what they do with their bodies if they aren't married, well it would be a question of whether or not it is a sin in the case of someone who is say not able to tell the difference in their genitals and their chromosomes are maybe different than what mom and dad raised them as. I don't know if that is a sin or not, some things we just don't have the wisdom to figure out. Having sex with someone; gay, straight or other; outside of marriage is sin, period. As to who they CAN marry and be morally good is a serious question that we need to come up with an answer to. We cannot assume that these people all have a gift of celebacy. quote:
I do say, that would be really hard thing to be afflicted with and it is different than the cross-dresser or transexual who just thinks they are the other sex even though all other things do not point to that. If I had that problem, feeling like I was stuck in the wrong body, I would check to see if I were a chimera. Since about 50% of all sets of fraternal twins are male/female, it would stand to reason that the M/F combination would also be about half of all chimearas. Some have said that one twin "dies" when absorbed by the other, but does it really? I am not so sure. I suppose it could be possible that each soul/spirit is still alive in the combined body.
Do you have Scriptural basis for this? Nothing in the Bible states a person can have two souls/spirits.
Could that be the case in some individuals?
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/29/2008 9:30:33 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4106
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: online
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quote:
If one identifies as a certain gender for his/her lifetime and marries the opposite sex, then finds out that his or her chromosomal arrangement is different, I don't know if God would consider that "invalid and sinful". So by your definition, someone with XXY who has both masculine and feminine traits cannot get married because any union would be homosexual? That is what I do not know. Someone needs to do some hard biblical study and a lot of prayer and find out. quote:
quote:
I suppose it could be possible that each soul/spirit is still alive in the combined body. Do you have Scriptural basis for this? Nothing in the Bible states a person can have two souls/spirits. And there is nothing I know of that says they can't. Again, I am hypothesizing here. I do not know the answer. But we need to find out.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/29/2008 3:19:01 PM
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solo_soprano22
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There are a lot of people (NOT just biologists and MD's) who believe that "life" exists after the point at which twinning can occur... because (to them) no two souls can exist in one body, one cannot have half a soul or two souls within themselves. I'm not sure if that belief has a name, but it is an intersting concept.
I think with the rest, it's rough knowing what to do when someone is.... both, neither or just plain ambiguous. That's part of the reason why I think people need to try to understand the person, the psychology, the biology...the biochemistry. These are people too. <shrugs>
_____________________________
For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/29/2008 3:19:11 PM
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HHV5
Posts: 159
Joined: 7/20/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
If one identifies as a certain gender for his/her lifetime and marries the opposite sex, then finds out that his or her chromosomal arrangement is different, I don't know if God would consider that "invalid and sinful". So by your definition, someone with XXY who has both masculine and feminine traits cannot get married because any union would be homosexual? That is what I do not know. Someone needs to do some hard biblical study and a lot of prayer and find out. quote:
quote:
I suppose it could be possible that each soul/spirit is still alive in the combined body. Do you have Scriptural basis for this? Nothing in the Bible states a person can have two souls/spirits. And there is nothing I know of that says they can't. Again, I am hypothesizing here. I do not know the answer. But we need to find out.
Unless someone can discern two spirits/souls in one person or can find a Scriptural basis, I personally will not subscribe to this view. It sounds like speculation veering off from our lack of understanding of chromosomal abnormalities. Better to be cautious than to espouse unfounded beliefs.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/29/2008 3:34:30 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4106
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: online
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I am not espousing anything. I simply don't know and would like to.
If we are going to be cautious, then we have to take into account this possibility and perhaps others as well.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/29/2008 4:02:25 PM
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davemiller7
Posts: 1057
Joined: 3/5/2008
From: NC via NY
Status: online
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It doesn't seem, from your post, that you are considering the marriage covenant as permanent. If these people can't decide what sex they really are, then they should not be getting married. I think it has been scientifically established that each of us possess both feminine and masculine traits, to some extent. However, most of us will identify with those traits which are most common to those with the same genitalia as we have. (Did I say what I meant to say here?) Anyway, a person who is having doubts about his/her sexuality should get those doubts resolved BEFORE he/she gets married. It seems like there would be at least some doubts like that which would arise beforehand, so that there shouldn't be a big surprise occurring after the marriage. I may be wrong about this and please forgive me if I am.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracy1242
I don't think we can put people who have their different chromosomes in the same class with an XY or XX crossdresser. I completely agree with this.quote:
I would say though that in either case they should hold to their commitments if they started a family. I am not so sure about this. If the case is either chimearism or non-disjunction (XXY, XYY, etc) would marrying someone with "normal" chromosomes be considered a homosexual relationship? If so, then the marriage would be invalid and sinful.
If one identifies as a certain gender for his/her lifetime and marries the opposite sex, then finds out that his or her chromosomal arrangement is different, I don't know if God would consider that "invalid and sinful". So by your definition, someone with XXY who has both masculine and feminine traits cannot get married because any union would be homosexual?
quote:
As for what they do with their bodies if they aren't married, well it would be a question of whether or not it is a sin in the case of someone who is say not able to tell the difference in their genitals and their chromosomes are maybe different than what mom and dad raised them as. I don't know if that is a sin or not, some things we just don't have the wisdom to figure out. Having sex with someone; gay, straight or other; outside of marriage is sin, period. As to who they CAN marry and be morally good is a serious question that we need to come up with an answer to. We cannot assume that these people all have a gift of celebacy. quote:
I do say, that would be really hard thing to be afflicted with and it is different than the cross-dresser or transexual who just thinks they are the other sex even though all other things do not point to that. If I had that problem, feeling like I was stuck in the wrong body, I would check to see if I were a chimera. Since about 50% of all sets of fraternal twins are male/female, it would stand to reason that the M/F combination would also be about half of all chimearas. Some have said that one twin "dies" when absorbed by the other, but does it really? I am not so sure. I suppose it could be possible that each soul/spirit is still alive in the combined body.
Do you have Scriptural basis for this? Nothing in the Bible states a person can have two souls/spirits.
Could that be the case in some individuals?
_____________________________
-Dave
The Prayer of Protection
The light of God surrounds me,
The love of God enfolds me,
The power of God protects me,
The presence of God watches over me.
Wherever I am, God is.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/29/2008 5:15:21 PM
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HHV5
Posts: 159
Joined: 7/20/2008
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quote:
ORIGINAL: davemiller7
It doesn't seem, from your post, that you are considering the marriage covenant as permanent. If these people can't decide what sex they really are, then they should not be getting married. I think it has been scientifically established that each of us possess both feminine and masculine traits, to some extent. However, most of us will identify with those traits which are most common to those with the same genitalia as we have. (Did I say what I meant to say here?) Anyway, a person who is having doubts about his/her sexuality should get those doubts resolved BEFORE he/she gets married. It seems like there would be at least some doubts like that which would arise beforehand, so that there shouldn't be a big surprise occurring after the marriage. I may be wrong about this and please forgive me if I am.
-Dave
quote:
ORIGINAL: HHV5
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: tracy1242
I don't think we can put people who have their different chromosomes in the same class with an XY or XX crossdresser. I completely agree with this.quote:
I would say though that in either case they should hold to their commitments if they started a family. I am not so sure about this. If the case is either chimearism or non-disjunction (XXY, XYY, etc) would marrying someone with "normal" chromosomes be considered a homosexual relationship? If so, then the marriage would be invalid and sinful.
If one identifies as a certain gender for his/her lifetime and marries the opposite sex, then finds out that his or her chromosomal arrangement is different, I don't know if God would consider that "invalid and sinful". So by your definition, someone with XXY who has both masculine and feminine traits cannot get married because any union would be homosexual?
quote:
As for what they do with their bodies if they aren't married, well it would be a question of whether or not it is a sin in the case of someone who is say not able to tell the difference in their genitals and their chromosomes are maybe different than what mom and dad raised them as. I don't know if that is a sin or not, some things we just don't have the wisdom to figure out. Having sex with someone; gay, straight or other; outside of marriage is sin, period. As to who they CAN marry and be morally good is a serious question that we need to come up with an answer to. We cannot assume that these people all have a gift of celebacy. quote:
I do say, that would be really hard thing to be afflicted with and it is different than the cross-dresser or transexual who just thinks they are the other sex even though all other things do not point to that. If I had that problem, feeling like I was stuck in the wrong body, I would check to see if I were a chimera. Since about 50% of all sets of fraternal twins are male/female, it would stand to reason that the M/F combination would also be about half of all chimearas. Some have said that one twin "dies" when absorbed by the other, but does it really? I am not so sure. I suppose it could be possible that each soul/spirit is still alive in the combined body.
Do you have Scriptural basis for this? Nothing in the Bible states a person can have two souls/spirits.
Could that be the case in some individuals?
I thought you were talking about people who thought they were one gender but found out that they have chromosomal abnormalities. (In other words, they thought all along they were male or female.)
quote:
I am not so sure about this. If the case is either chimearism or non-disjunction (XXY, XYY, etc) would marrying someone with "normal" chromosomes be considered a homosexual relationship? If so, then the marriage would be invalid and sinful.
It seemed as though you were punishing those who were born with conditions that they had no control over. If you're XXY, is it immoral to marry anyone? (Also, if you're XYY, wouldn't you be male anyways?)
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/29/2008 5:55:00 PM
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solo_soprano22
Posts: 2472
Joined: 4/27/2005
From: I'm a Southern girl
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quote:
It seemed as though you were punishing those who were born with conditions that they had no control over. If you're XXY, is it immoral to marry anyone? (Also, if you're XYY, wouldn't you be male anyways?)
That's the question. But if you notice, they have a female X and a male Y, in addition to the X that everyone has...so they won't be all male in characteristic. But the one he listed is kleinfelter's syndrome (XXY). They have male genitalia (usually not normal), but also female characteristics (and/or genitalia) in instances...some have gynecomastia (if I recall correctly). They are more prone to "female" diseases (breast cancer, osteoporosis, etc) probably because they have high levels of female hormones but low testosterone (after all, it is the absence of testosterone that tells us to be female), but their chromosomes are essentially half female and half male. And, from the way it seems, both halves try to fight each other to show each's characteristics.
Once there are more than two sex chromosomes, things aren't going to be right anymore (I'm sure in some instance somewhere there has been a normal oucome though, and I think that happens with KS). Just because someone has XXY doesn't mean that they're fully male, because that extra X will bring in female characteristics and function that will try to fight the Y (like I mentioned above). The two XX's tell youto be female... but then that Y is telling you to be male. Lately I've heard that they can attempt to try to override the extra X with testosterone treatment, which might work for some men. (It makes sense.)
As for those who are "ambiguous" and want to marry, I'm not even sure what they should do in all instances, but I think that's what needs to be discussed and thought about by Christians (and anyone). Brushing it off isn't the right thing to do (IMO).
I think sometimes these psychological problems might be "fixable" though (by drugs or therapy, or both), but many times the person is happy being the way they are.
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For God, For Learning, Forever.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 7/30/2008 1:32:16 AM
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HHV5
Posts: 159
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Just thought I'd add another layer of complexity to this matter - the more we know...
There are also intersex individuals who have normal XY chromosomal arrangements but do not have AIS.
Here's the abstract of the paper I found titled "Wnt4 overexpression disrupts normal testicular vasculature and inhibits testosterone synthesis by repressing steroidogenic factor 1/B-catenin synergy" - Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences Vol. 100 No. 19 (10866-10871)
"Genetic studies in mice suggest that Wnt4 signaling antagonizes
expression of male hormones and effectively blocks male development
in the female embryo. We recently identified an XY
intersex patient carrying a chromosomal duplication of the WNT4
locus and proposed that this patient’s feminization arises from an
increased dosage of WNT4. To test this hypothesis, a transgenic
mouse was generated with a large genomic P1 containing the
human WNT4. Although a complete male to female intersex
phenotype was not observed in WNT4 transgenic male mice, a
dramatic reduction in steroidogenic acute regulatory protein
was detected consistent with the marked reduction in serum and
testicular androgen levels. Furthermore, a mild reduction of germ
cells and a disorganized vascular system were observed in testes
of WNT4 transgenic males. Consistent with these in vivo data,
Wnt4 repressed steroidogenesis in adrenocortical and Leydig cell
lines, as evidenced by reduced progesterone secretion and 3-
hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase activity. In vitro studies showed
that Wnt4 antagonizes the functional synergy observed between
the major effector of the Wnt signaling pathway, B-catenin
and steroidogenic factor 1, and chromatin immunoprecipitation
showed that Wnt4 attenuates recruitment of B-catenin to the
steroidogenic acute regulatory protein promoter. Our findings
suggest a model in which Wnt4 acts as an anti-male factor by
disrupting recruitment of B-catenin at or near steroidogenic factor
1 binding sites present in multiple steroidogenic genes."
The point is, there are multiple reasons why one may have a confusing situation as far as gender is concerned.
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We said we saw some intersexed people on there, but I personally have studied the biology of this long before seeing any in the flesh ("long before" is proportional to the time I've been alive 
). But the tiny bit of biology that he did discuss on the show was correct; he was focusing more on the problems that these people have in everyday life. Too bad I can't have a ton of research interests in graduate school. I'd love to study this (when I get in).