RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (Full Version)

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uschaplain -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 8:55:53 AM)

quote:

I am of the opinion that a person who cross dresses does so because they make the choice to do so. When the sex is indeterminate (or both) then, by definition, they can not cross dress because there is nothing to "cross."


I guess a person born left handed can choose to do things right handed, and they might be quite successful at times doing it, but I would contend they manage their left-handedness.

In the same way a crossdresser can manage crossdressing. They can choose at times to not crossdress, partially crossdress, or fully crossdress.

In the past lefties were considered "sinister," from the Latin word, sinster, meaning left. I don't think many people view left-handedness as a sin, but there was a time when some people did.

Clothing is neutral. God gave us clothing to cover our nakedness. People can wear clothing inappropriately. How people wear clothing can be a problem. Drag queens (homosexual crossdressers) dress to entice or other. Heterosexual, non-fetish, crossdressers dress to blend. They do not seek to draw attention to themselves in inappropriate ways.



IMA_CHRISTIAN -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 9:29:36 AM)

USCHAPLAIN -

quote:

The Bible has a lot to say about deception, either deceiving ourselves or others. Deception is considered a sin.



Except in the case of the cross dresser, they are not trying to deceive anyone. They are doing this to please themselves. They are trying to wear the clothing that they feel the most comfortable in and to be able to feel by these types of clothing whether they are a man or a woman inside their soul, as opposed to what body parts they were born with.



Bro_Shane -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 9:48:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RaeLouiseWall

quote:

Barring some genetic defect or physilogical imbalance that is beyond the control of the person, I am of the opinion that a person who cross dresses does so because they make the choice to do so. When the sex is indeterminate (or both) then, by definition, they can not cross dress because there is nothing to "cross."


Considering your stand:
if scientific evidence proved that crossdresing and transgenderism is biological/genetic/dna triggered, how would that change your viewpoint here since the only outward difference between some intersexed people and a crossdresser may be ambigious genitalia?


Then I would do for them what I would do for anyone suffering from an illness. I would pray for them, with them, and offer support in any way I could. I don't think my view would really change that much, if at all. But, as it stands, there is no evidence that proves such. A person with these types of issues is not what one typically considers a crossdresser.

quote:

For the crossdresser the need to do this is one that typically starts well before the child is sexualy aware of things and before he has a real concept of gender roles in general. Discuss this with any number of people who crossdress. Ask them to tell you when they first realized they were "different". Ask them how they feel physically, mentally and emotionally when crossdressed. Ask them how they feel when they must supress this need.


Ask any person - adult or child - if they ever thought they were different, or when they knew they were different from others, and you will get a response similar regardless of whether they practice such behavior. The behavior stems from something, and is a manifestation of some problem or condition that has either yet been addressed or repressed, or accepted as normal (perhaps even to rebel against their idea of "normal"). It is not a root cause of anything, merely a symptom of something else.

quote:

you will find the vast majority of them will provide close to the same answers.


Not surprising. Ask any group that engages in the same behavior why they do so and how they feel if denied the chance to engage in such behavior and you will get similar answers.

quote:

They started having these feelings pre teen years, often around 1st grade or younger. They feel emotionally at peace when dressed as if things are "right" and often feel out of place wearing the clothing of thier birth gender.


The question then becomes why they feel their birth gender is not "right" for them? Again, barring those with genetic or pysiologial defect (for lack of a better term, I do not mean to cast dispersions), there is no evidence that the "need" to engage in this behavior is also motivated by, or rooted in, genetics or another biological cause. We do not try to accept the anorexic and leave them to their behavior - we search for the cause to try to fix it, thus stopping (hopefully) the undesired behavior.

quote:

The blood pessure and stress levels drop to normal levels as well. When they have to supress this act for extended periods (like all people this period is relative to the person) the stress levels increase, often depression forms and they often seek out other means to try to hide from the problem. This often leads to achohol or drug abuse as ways of trying to cope.


But, again, the root cause is not the behavior or the "need" to act it out. Take anyone who engages in a behavior that they feel completes them, or makes them right, deny it, and you get the same results many times. The behavior is filling some emotional or psychological "need" and, until that is dealt with, they will find other things (such as alcohol) to fill the void.

quote:

The descriptions above really does not come across to me as something that is a choice, but rather a genetic disposition they have in life.


It does, indeed sound more like a choice than anything else. The real question is why they make the choices they make. Simply attaching unwanted physilogical response to the denial of behavior does not automatically equate to a genetic disposition that controls behavior.



Bro_Shane -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 10:03:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RaeLouiseWall

quote:

ORIGINAL: happydays

Is the surgery correcting a mistake God made?

Of course, the same could be asked of surgery on a baby at birth for cleft palate.


that is truly a loaded question and you pretty much provided the answer in your final comment.

Personally I do not believe that God has ever made a mistake. He is God. People are born with various defects, physical, mental, emotional all the time. Correcting these various defects via some sort of medical procedure or therapy is part of everyday life.

When people make the assumption that a person who happens to feel that their outward birth gender does not match the inner emotional, mental, spiritual gender is in effect saying "God made a mistake" tends to paint with a wide brush indeed. Some of these folks probably feel that indeed God has made a mistake. Some people believe in God, others do not and there are millions upon millions in between both extremes.

Many Christians who deal with the issue of “GID” or Gender Identity Disorder and have followed the path to GRS (gender reassignment surgery or SRS) have very strong relationships with God. They do not think God made a mistake, but rather has allowed modern medicine and healthcare to provide them with the ability to finally reconcile the mental, emotional and spiritual opposite gender feelings with the physical appearance they need to feel whole.



Do we allow the anorexic to continue their behavior becuase what they see in the mirror is not what they feel is right? Do we allow the schizophrenic to continue in certain behaviors because their idea of what is real is just as "valid" as yours or mine? Of course, we do not. Why then, do we allow - and even sanction - the mutilation of the body of a person who can not be proven to have any defect other then how they perceive themselves? This comes either from rebellion or severe psychological abnormality.

Indeed, God does not make mistakes, but we live in a fallen and corrupt world where bad things happen. The fix is not allowing the afflicted to continue in their affliction while being praised for it, but to work with love, kindness, and respect toward fixing that which is broken.

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

Please explain to me the problem with the SBA minister who is a chimera. Does the SBA have a prohibition on women ministers? Or is it just the so-called crossdressing that removed him/her from the ministry?


The SBC churches are part of the Convention, but it is not a governing body over the individual churches. It issues doctrinal opinions but no church is bound by them. Most SB churches will neither ordain nor employ a woman minister.

quote:

ORIGINAL: uschaplain

I guess a person born left handed can choose to do things right handed, and they might be quite successful at times doing it, but I would contend they manage their left-handedness.

In the same way a crossdresser can manage crossdressing. They can choose at times to not crossdress, partially crossdress, or fully crossdress.

In the past lefties were considered "sinister," from the Latin word, sinster, meaning left. I don't think many people view left-handedness as a sin, but there was a time when some people did.

Clothing is neutral. God gave us clothing to cover our nakedness. People can wear clothing inappropriately. How people wear clothing can be a problem. Drag queens (homosexual crossdressers) dress to entice or other. Heterosexual, non-fetish, crossdressers dress to blend. They do not seek to draw attention to themselves in inappropriate ways.


If you can equate a transvestite with a left-handed person and feel good about it logically, then more power to you. Whether a behavior is able to be managed does not speak to the issue of why it is being done, or if it should be done. If young girls could manage to only cut themselves once a week, and not too deep, should we be OK with it?



ariannaleigh -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 10:59:42 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN

USCHAPLAIN -

quote:

The Bible has a lot to say about deception, either deceiving ourselves or others. Deception is considered a sin.



Except in the case of the cross dresser, they are not trying to deceive anyone. They are doing this to please themselves. They are trying to wear the clothing that they feel the most comfortable in and to be able to feel by these types of clothing whether they are a man or a woman inside their soul, as opposed to what body parts they were born with.


I would go one further and say that people who are transgendered (and to a degree, people who cross-dress) feel the deception is their assigned birth gender, and that by living in the opposite gender role, they remove that deception.

I also want to point out the slippery slope of deciding what's right based on how a person feels. As someone who's trying to process all these feelings inside of me, I'm trying very hard to reconcile it with scripture.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
Indeed, God does not make mistakes, but we live in a fallen and corrupt world where bad things happen. The fix is not allowing the afflicted to continue in their affliction while being praised for it, but to work with love, kindness, and respect toward fixing that which is broken.


I do believe there is a lot of brokenness in people with GID. While looking for information on this subject, I found a list of things in common among transsexuals, and out of 65 things on the list, I related to 55 of them. It really helped me to be able to articulate things that I've been feeling, but didn't even know how to say.

Things in Common Among Transsexuals



uschaplain -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 11:23:59 AM)

quote:

If you can equate a transvestite with a left-handed person and feel good about it logically, then more power to you. Whether a behavior is able to be managed does not speak to the issue of why it is being done, or if it should be done. If young girls could manage to only cut themselves once a week, and not too deep, should we be OK with it?


With regard to your first sentence, yes, I feel good about equating crossdressing with being along the lines of being left handed.

Why people crossdress is an excellent question. Each crossdresser will probably have one or more reasons, which have been discussed before in this thread. I wouldn't be surprised to find each crossdresser has a reason or reasons fairly unique to him or her. The causes for crossdressing have only been guessed. Some say its genetics, some say environment, some say hormones, some say an interuterine hormonal brain wash (or lack thereof), some say its psychological, some say its social.

The reasons I have seen for crossdressing are many and varied, such as, (1) I crossdress because I like to do it, (2) I crossdress because I admire and want to emulate what society considers feminine, (3) I crossdress to relieve stress, (4) I crossdress to express feelings, qualities, characteristics, and traits I don't feel free to express while dressed according to my biological sex, (4) I crossdress because I like the way feminine clothes make me feel, (5) I crossdress because I feel at ease and relaxed, (6) I crossdress because it makes me more complete, (7) I crossdress because I want to experience what women feel, (8) and many other reasons too numerous to mention here.

Should crossdressing be done? Why not? Where does the Bible say it is a sin? I already posted what I believe is a better translation of Deuteronomy 22:5. As long as one is not being deceptive, or dressing to be sexually enticing, or vain (proud), where is the sin?

Your last statement seems to imply several things. I'm not sure what you are meaning, so I will ask several questions to gain understanding. Do you think crossdressing is a psychological disorder, such as a obsessive-comulsive disorder, or an addiction? Are you sayinging crossdressing is harmful for the person who crossdresses? Or are you saying something else?



uschaplain -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 11:34:35 AM)

quote:

Except in the case of the cross dresser, they are not trying to deceive anyone.


I wholeheartedly agree with you. Your statement is correct for most crossdressers. Some crossdressers do seem to have the desire to pass as a woman in public, whether or not they actually can. I've already posted my view that most crossdressers are unable to pass and do not seek to deceive anyone.

Transsexuals, on the other hand, have a different need. They want to pass. They feel/believe/sense the gender of their mind is different than the biological sex of their body. They no longer want to deceive themselves by denying their feelings and thoughts.



Bro_Shane -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 1:55:27 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: uschaplain

Your last statement seems to imply several things. I'm not sure what you are meaning, so I will ask several questions to gain understanding. Do you think crossdressing is a psychological disorder, such as a obsessive-comulsive disorder, or an addiction? Are you sayinging crossdressing is harmful for the person who crossdresses? Or are you saying something else?



I think that it stems from both psychological disorders and from rebellion that is inherent in the sin nature. The former should be treated as to what causes the behavior, and the latter only Christ can cure. About it being harmful to the one who crossdresses, it would be simple to say, "no, it's not harmful to that person so everyone should just get over it." But, when we go back and revisit the premise that it stems either from psychological disorder or the sin nature, then that brings us back to something that needs to be treated, thus stopping the behavior, thus making the question moot. There is no proof at all that crossdressing or the so-called "transgendered" is caused by genetic defect. Until that comes it shouldn't be treated as if that is the case.

quote:

Should crossdressing be done? Why not? Where does the Bible say it is a sin? I already posted what I believe is a better translation of Deuteronomy 22:5. As long as one is not being deceptive, or dressing to be sexually enticing, or vain (proud), where is the sin?


My question is how can you engage in such behavior and not be doing the above? If a person says they are not that takes us right back to the original problem of finding out what causes the behavior - then we're back to either aspiritual or psychological problem.

You ask where is the sin if people do not do it and "being deceptive, or dressing to be sexually enticing, or vain (proud)," but another question, the more important one, is not being asked. It is, "If I do this thing will it bring praise and glory to God, or will it cause others to stumble in their walk with Christ, or cause others to not seek Christ at all?" You see, this emphasis on self-centered thinking, the idea that "as long as no one is getting hurt by it (or I'm not hurting myself)" or that since scripture doesn't specifically exclude an activity or behavior, is in direct contradiction to scriptural teaching:

Romans 14:13-18 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. [14] I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. [15] But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. [16] Let not then your good be evil spoken of: [17] For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. [18] For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

I Corinthians 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

I Corinthians 6:12-13 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. [13] Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

That teaching says that we are free to do many things that scripture does not specifically exclude. However, whether we are free to do them or not should always be tempered with our concern - not for ourselves - but for our brothers and sisters in Christ and the lost around us. If that thing would cause such, then we should gladly do without it becasue doing so serves the purpose of God better than our freedom to do (or have) it.



IMA_CHRISTIAN -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 2:33:25 PM)

uschaplain - yes, and also the person must really feel a strong need to go thru the pain of the surgery and the year waiting period before having the surgery, to go thru that much pain and expense -- all to feel "normal".

ps - ((and some cross dressers/drag queens do it because they enjoy entertaining people,,, even to the point that its a career.... i.e. las vegas showgurls or female impersonator shows))...or to raise money for charity like me and my friends did a few years ago here locally.



uschaplain -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 3:13:19 PM)

quote:

quote:

Should crossdressing be done? Why not? Where does the Bible say it is a sin? I already posted what I believe is a better translation of Deuteronomy 22:5. As long as one is not being deceptive, or dressing to be sexually enticing, or vain (proud), where is the sin?

My question is how can you engage in such behavior and not be doing the above? If a person says they are not that takes us right back to the original problem of finding out what causes the behavior - then we're back to either aspiritual or psychological problem.


First, are you saying all crossdressers are crossdressing all the time they crossdress to deceive, to sexually entice, and/or to be vain? A woman can pad her bra, dress seductively, or dress for vainglory, but certainly not all women all the time dress in this manner. Why do you imply crossdressers do?

Second, you seem to limit crossdressing to two causes: a psychological disorder or a spiritual need (to cure original sin or rebellion)? Why do you limit the cause of crossdressing to only these two causes?



Bro_Shane -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 3:58:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: uschaplain

First, are you saying all crossdressers are crossdressing all the time they crossdress to deceive, to sexually entice, and/or to be vain? A woman can pad her bra, dress seductively, or dress for vainglory, but certainly not all women all the time dress in this manner. Why do you imply crossdressers do?


Because a woman dressing like a woman, or a man dressing like a man, is not unheard of - in fact, it's quite common. Crossdressing is not like deciding to wear socks on your ears or hats on your feet. I am not trying to imply that "they crossdress to deceive, to sexually entice, and/or to be vain." I am flat-out saying it. Either they are mentally/emotionally unstable in some way or they do it because they know people do not like it (or for those who do like it). There is nothing that shows/proves that it is anything else.

quote:

Second, you seem to limit crossdressing to two causes: a psychological disorder or a spiritual need (to cure original sin or rebellion)? Why do you limit the cause of crossdressing to only these two causes?


What other causes are there? If a person has a genetic disorder that results in ambiguous genitalia (due to chomosonal defect) then how can they crossdress when there is no gender line to "cross"? That leaves only those with some form of psychological disorder or those who just want to rebel or are abberant. Both come because we live in a fallen world and inherit a sin nature, but a believer would only have to struggle with the psychological while the lost person has bigger problems than whether they crossdress.

I limit it to the two causes because a person can't "cross" a line that doesn't exist for them which leaves only those with mental disorders, those who love rebellion, and sexual deviants.



Vejay -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 4:15:01 PM)

quote:

What other causes are there? If a person has a genetic disorder that results in ambiguous genitalia (due to chomosonal defect) then how can they crossdress when there is no gender line to "cross"? That leaves only those with some form of psychological disorder or those who just want to rebel or are abberant.


The thing is that we don't know if there are other causes. I've seen some research that suggests that there can be hormonal effects during gestation that affect the "gender" of the brain. We do know what we hear from people like Jan Morris or Lyn Conway about their own experiences.

One problem is that it's obviously not a single phenomenon with a single cause. There are many disparate reasons for cross dressing - some less admirable than others. Certainly there are those who do it for sexual reasons, and those who do it for other reasons. So it's difficult to have a single response.

VJ



RaeLouiseWall -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 4:26:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
Because a woman dressing like a woman, or a man dressing like a man, is not unheard of - in fact, it's quite common. Crossdressing is not like deciding to wear socks on your ears or hats on your feet. I am not trying to imply that "they crossdress to deceive, to sexually entice, and/or to be vain." I am flat-out saying it. Either they are mentally/emotionally unstable in some way or they do it because they know people do not like it (or for those who do like it). There is nothing that shows/proves that it is anything else.


In reading this sort of response I can only conclude that you are not a trained psychologist; therefore it is not an accurate statement to "flat-out say" that a crossdresser is mentally/emotionally unstable does not hold water.



LordBeWithMeAlways -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 6:57:16 PM)

It seems we all have opinions about crossdressing. If you are of the persuasion that crossdressing is sinful, then pray for that person, instead of making broad, sweeping statements that they are deceitful, cunning, and lascivious. You don't know why people are that way; you are not a mindreader - only God knows the heart. I hope if a crossdresser comes up and talks to you about Jesus, you do not tell him/her that it's because they are being trying to be rebellious. There are many broad generalizations made by people, who probably have good intentions, but they can be hurtful especially to someone who does not know Christ and does not realize where you're coming from.



LordBeWithMeAlways -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 6:59:57 PM)

It's one thing to be fundamentalist. It's another to show compassion and love to those that are lost and in need of Christ. We are all sinful, rebellious, and not worthy of God's love; yet, He sent His one and only Son and through grace alone can we be saved. Jesus taught us humility. We should humble ourselves and take the plank out of our eyes.



leah777 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 7:14:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane

quote:

ORIGINAL: rcjames

Well shucks, if some cross-dressing, transgender type folks want to fellowship at my Church; they are welcome, as long as they repent of thier rebellion, sin, and craziness.

Else they can go on down the street to the Unitarian or possibly the UCC or some other gathering, but they will not be welcome here without repentance and salvation.

Same thing goes for homosexuals, adulterers, fornicators, and sinners of all ilks.


Thanks
RC



I believe that deserves an "Amen."

Now, how long will it take for RC to be called a Pharisee? I'm going to open a bag of chips and watch...[sm=wave.gif]


[:D][:D][:D]

It could get interesting -- got some chips to spare, Bro_Shane?



leah777 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 7:40:18 PM)


I agree with RC James and Bro_ Shane ......

For all who think we should accept this behavior, at what point do we call sin sin, and start to help that person overcome that sin, and live in God's grace? Sure, Jesus walked among sinners, that is exactly who He was sent here for .... it's who He died for ... but He was always, and still is, attempting to lead them out of sin into grace, and eternal life with him.

To allow someone in the church, to remain in the church without having them face that what they are doing is sin, is NOT what He is about. Jesus called sin sin, and he didn't make any excuses for the way ppl were born ..... you don't see him telling the man with demons -- you really can't help the way you are, so I'll overlook your demons. No. He cast out the demons, and healed the man.

How about the woman caught in the act of adultery -- did he give us a synopsis of her heritage, what genes she might have inherited to make her act the way she did, or if she was abused as a child .. . No. He told her to go and sin no more -- that is stating very plainly that what she was doing was sin, and not something he would excuse as a result of her childhood, inherited genes, or any other reason.

For whatever reason, these ppl are trying or pretending to be something they aren't. Yes, there may inherited genes, or other reasons that preclude them acting the way they do, but Jesus is still the healer, and if they are truly wanting to love Him, worship Him and serve Him, and accept Him into their hearts, they will also want to please Him by getting rid of those things he calls sin. And any kind of pretense is sin.

No, I do not think my church or any church has only ppl who are without sin. We are all sinners. But we don't excuse our sin and go on sinning. We get it under the blood of Jesus and seek total healing.



Vejay -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 7:50:58 PM)

quote:

And any kind of pretense is sin.


That's broad ... is makeup sinful? Are wigs sinful?

VJ



LordBeWithMeAlways -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 8:24:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leah777


I agree with RC James and Bro_ Shane ......

For all who think we should accept this behavior, at what point do we call sin sin, and start to help that person overcome that sin, and live in God's grace? Sure, Jesus walked among sinners, that is exactly who He was sent here for .... it's who He died for ... but He was always, and still is, attempting to lead them out of sin into grace, and eternal life with him.

To allow someone in the church, to remain in the church without having them face that what they are doing is sin, is NOT what He is about. Jesus called sin sin, and he didn't make any excuses for the way ppl were born ..... you don't see him telling the man with demons -- you really can't help the way you are, so I'll overlook your demons. No. He cast out the demons, and healed the man.

How about the woman caught in the act of adultery -- did he give us a synopsis of her heritage, what genes she might have inherited to make her act the way she did, or if she was abused as a child .. . No. He told her to go and sin no more -- that is stating very plainly that what she was doing was sin, and not something he would excuse as a result of her childhood, inherited genes, or any other reason.

For whatever reason, these ppl are trying or pretending to be something they aren't. Yes, there may inherited genes, or other reasons that preclude them acting the way they do, but Jesus is still the healer, and if they are truly wanting to love Him, worship Him and serve Him, and accept Him into their hearts, they will also want to please Him by getting rid of those things he calls sin. And any kind of pretense is sin.

No, I do not think my church or any church has only ppl who are without sin. We are all sinners. But we don't excuse our sin and go on sinning. We get it under the blood of Jesus and seek total healing.


OF COURSE we are to tell the person s/he is sinning if s/he is a crossdresser and wants to walk the Way. BUT, we are to do it with compassion and understanding, not condemnation that they are troubled and rebellious. This kind of pseudo-psycho-fundamentalist babble will NOT win the hearts of the lost. Who are we humans to say another is rebellious???



leah777 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 8:24:58 PM)


I don't consider the use of cosmetics pretence.



LordBeWithMeAlways -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 8:25:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leah777


I don't consider the use of cosmetics pretence.


What about vanity?



RaeLouiseWall -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 8:25:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leah777
For whatever reason, these ppl are trying or pretending to be something they aren't. Yes, there may inherited genes, or other reasons that preclude them acting the way they do, but Jesus is still the healer, and if they are truly wanting to love Him, worship Him and serve Him, and accept Him into their hearts, they will also want to please Him by getting rid of those things he calls sin. And any kind of pretense is sin.


This statement brings me right back to the question I have raised here multiple times without an answer that meets the question.

What about the act of crossdressing is sin? Show me accurate Biblical proof that this is sin and we can carry on from there.

I have found New Testament scripture that tells me that God is not concerned about what we wear, yet this does apparently does not apply to a crossdresser and I want to know why? The double standard and lack of a definitive answer is almost comical to me.

So far all that seems to come out is the Deut verse, which was quite eloquently explained earlier here by USChaplin who has a Doctorate in theology
quote:

I have a Master's degree in counseling and a Ph.D. in Biblical studies.
carries much more weight than simply professing personal opinion with no tangible scriptural backing for it.

Sure, all crossdressers are “pretending to be something they are not” when fully crossdressed and acting like the gender associated with the clothes. So what! Is acting sinful? Do most people on this planet at times (some more than others) act interested, excited, tired or any other range of emotions when needed?

As has been stated in this thread multiple times most crossdressers (there are always exceptions to every rule) have no delusion of “deceiving” or “Fooling” people into thinking they are biologically the gender they are outwardly presenting while crossdressed. They may at times think that someone has not known they were male or female (yes Virginia there are bona-fide female to male crossdresers) but anyone with one iota of reasonable observation sees through it quickly.



lw9 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 8:31:21 PM)

Thank you RC James, Bro_Shane, and leah777 for inserting the voice of reason into this discussion. This particular Christian completely agrees with your statements.



Vejay -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 9:06:34 PM)

quote:

I don't consider the use of cosmetics pretence.


I consider it a form of pretence similar to cross dressing - different in degree, but not different in kind. I can understand that people may feel more like themselves when wearing cosmetics, but personally I dislike the pretence and do not wear makeup.

VJ



leah777 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 9:16:52 PM)


Rae, I don't have a doctorate in anything, so I'm not going to tackle your question except to piont you to the Bible -- the Whole Bible. I know the answer is in there, but I have not the wherewithal to seek it out and post it, so I will just rely on my common sense. But I would like to ask a question of my own . . ..

Why would a crossdresser want to crossdress? I know this has been discussed, but why not just let common sense prevail . .. . what is in them that they would want to draw that kind of attention to themselves? Or what is in them that they would want to pretend to me the opposite sex? Whatever question fits here, use it, then answer it. If they want to act, give them a stage . . somehow, I don't think that is what they want. I don't care what kind of degree anyone has, they can't explain away the reasons and make it ok. Something is wrong that needs to be righted . . or healed.



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