RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (Full Version)

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LordBeWithMeAlways -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 9:40:07 PM)

They're not trying to pretend; to them, they are the opposite gender and that's how they feel inside. They're not TRYING to draw attention to themselves, any more than you are when you are deciding what to wear or what makeup to put on. But I agree - crossdressing is something that needs to be worked out. However, by misunderstanding the issue and what causes it, you're doing service to no one.



leah777 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 10:07:35 PM)


Quoted from Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology found on CW

quote:

Human Attractiveness. Both women and men are described as attractive. Human beings at times used cosmetics to make themselves more beautiful (Isa 3:18-24). Sarah (Gen 12:11), Rebekah (Gen 24:16), Abigail (1 Sam 25:3), Rachel, Abishag, Bathsheba, and Esther are singled out for their beauty. Yet physical beauty was secondary to piety and resourcefulness (Prov 31:10-31; also see 1 Tim 2:9-10; 1 Peter 3:3-5). The writer of the Song of Solomon portrays his love for his bride as beautiful. Though the Hebrews did not exalt the human form as did the ancient Greeks, some men are referred to as exceedingly handsome: David (1 Sa 16:12), Absalom (2 Sa 14:25), Daniel (Da 1:15), Joseph, Jonathan, and even Moses as a child (Exod 1). Clothing also had esthetic appeal (see Gen 41:42; 45:22; Exod 26:36; 28:2; Rev 3:4).

Divine Descriptions Scripture presents an implicit theology of beauty as a concomitant of divine creativity and eschatological redemption. The Lord's favor is beautiful and his hopeful promises offer "beauty for ashes" for his people (Psalm 90:17; Isa 61:3). God is a diadem of beauty for the faithful Israelite remnant (Isa 28:5).

God is a God of glory, and his Shekinah glory is ever present among his people (Exod 16:7; 24:16; 40:34; Lev 9:6; Num 14:10; Deut 5:24). The promised Messiah was prophesied to be a beautiful king (Isa 33:17). Yet the prophet also said that the suffering Messiah would have "no beauty or majesty to attract us to him" (Isa 53:2).

Johannine Significance It should hardly surprise us that beauty plays such an important role in the Bible's eschatological drama. The Book of Revelation avoids anthropomorphic representations of God. God is described in undeniable splendor. The concept of beauty thus is more significant than simple attractiveness. Beauty is similar, if not synonymous, with God's glory. The one who sits on the throne of the universe "had the appearance of jasper … and a rainbow, resembling an emerald, encircled the throne" (Rev 4:3). The Holy City, the final estate prepared for God's people, is gloriously adorned as a bride for her husband (Rev 21:2).

Pauline Significance In the present period, believers are exhorted to live in a manner that will make the teaching of the Lord beautiful and attractive before unbelievers (Tit 2:10). Those who preach the gospel can be described as beautiful (Rom 10:15).

David S. Dockery


The above are just some of the examples of women and men enhancing the beauty God gave them. I figure if He includes this in His Word, beauty was important to Him. I think He made Eve very beautiful. Man's/woman's imperfections, which we attempt to cover or correct with cosmetics, came at the fall of man. I don't think He would object to our doing this so long as we aren't doing it to entice someone to sin.

Tell me, VeJay, do you buy pretty clothes? Do you wear jewelry? Do you fix your hair attractively? How about lotions? Creams? Perfume? Do you wash your hair with lye soap, which would clean it, or do you use something that smells good and leaves it soft and shining? Everything we do to our bodies to preserve and enhance their beauty, could, in the strictest sense of the word, be considered pretence. All of these are enhancing your natural beauty, or correcting things that you may be short of. They are no different than makeup. So if you want to call that pretence, then I guess one would have to never wash their face, brush their teeth, fix their hair, use lotions or perfumes, or buy clothes that look good on them because that would be pretending to be somethign your not.

I am a woman. I will do all these things, and more if needed to continue to feel like and look like a woman. I can say that not many ppl woudl consider me especially attractive, but neither would many ppl find me UNattractive. I use these things to preserve and, yes, maybe even enhance, what God has given me. I don't use them to try to be a beauty queen, or to attract the opposite sex (except my husband) which would be very wrong, but just to know that I am making the best of what I've been given to work with. But underneath, both God and I am sure of who I am . . and who I am not. I'm a woman of God and I'm not pretending to be anything different.



Vejay -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 10:31:35 PM)

quote:

Tell me, VeJay, do you buy pretty clothes? Do you wear jewelry? Do you fix your hair attractively? How about lotions? Creams? Perfume?


I don't go about looking scruffy but I don't find clothes, jewellery, perfume, lotions and so on interesting and I don't enjoy wearing adornments such as jewellery (I do wear my wedding ring out of tact [;)] ). But that's just me. I don't mind if other people do. At home I don't feel that I'm unusual but I might in the USA where I think it's more expected that women will wear cosmetics.

quote:

Everything we do to our bodies to preserve and enhance their beauty, could, in the strictest sense of the word, be considered pretence. All of these are enhancing your natural beauty, or correcting things that you may be short of.


Well indeed. I guess that's how cross dressers feel isn't it? Can't say I agree with them but I don't find their views much different than that of women who wear a lot of makeup and jewellery or have cosmetic surgery.

VJ



leah777 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 10:50:57 PM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: Vejay

quote:

Tell me, VeJay, do you buy pretty clothes? Do you wear jewelry? Do you fix your hair attractively? How about lotions? Creams? Perfume?


I don't go about looking scruffy but I don't find clothes, jewellery, perfume, lotions and so on interesting and I don't enjoy wearing adornments such as jewellery (I do wear my wedding ring out of tact [;)] ). But that's just me. I don't mind if other people do. At home I don't feel that I'm unusual but I might in the USA where I think it's more expected that women will wear cosmetics.


So, in other words, this is just a preference of yours, not something you feel God has instructed us not to do.

quote:


quote:

Everything we do to our bodies to preserve and enhance their beauty, could, in the strictest sense of the word, be considered pretence. All of these are enhancing your natural beauty, or correcting things that you may be short of.


Well indeed. I guess that's how cross dressers feel isn't it? Can't say I agree with them but I don't find their views much different than that of women who wear a lot of makeup and jewellery or have cosmetic surgery.
VJ


Now how exactly would this be enhancing their natural beauty? Cuz they are obviously dressing UNnaturally for the gender they were born into.

And I find it very sad that you would compare this to a woman who wears makeup and jewelry. I doubt that God would have ever looked twice at Solomon if he felt that way about beauty, or many other ppl of the Bible, for that matter. He never condemned adornments except when they BECAME that person's whole being . . their god, if you will and/or when the adornments were donned to hide the ugliness of their heart.



IMA_CHRISTIAN -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 11:03:36 PM)

I cant even get my mother to listen to me, much less other strangers.

I would hope that if I could show the Lord to some people, no matter what they're background is, I could show them Jesus, and let Jesus take care of what ails them. Whatever that may be. I would love to be able to talk to my old friends from my past life and lead them to God. I did witness to one man that, at times he does female impersonation. I didn't worry what I would say or how God feels about his lifestyle, I just said what I would say to anyone who needs salvation. I had to show him that you dont get to heaven by good works... I pray that God will continue to water that little bit. Now he is a guy from my old bar hopping days, and he has since seen a change in me, and I pray that the Lord will help show him some more. It seems like what I said touched him.. I may go soon and check to see how he is doing with what we talked about. He is really a sweet guy. Please pray that he will find his way to the Lord.



leah777 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 11:09:31 PM)


It sounds like you have been sowing seeds, Ima_Christian, and God has promised that His word will not return void, so we can count on him to water, and harvest that seed. Of course, in the end, it's the person's decision. But God has a way to change even the most stubborn souls

I don't think we should ever beat someone over the head with the Bible, nor throw them out on their ear if they don't succumb to what we have decided God wants of them. But neither do I believe we should "excuse" their (or our) errors or sins by blaming it on genes, etc. Yes, it may be genes. God can heal even that. This is what we need to work towards letting them know.



Vejay -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 11:20:31 PM)

quote:

Now how exactly would this be enhancing their natural beauty? Cuz they are obviously dressing UNnaturally for the gender they were born into.


Well they aren't conforming to cultural norms, that's for sure. But what's acceptable in one culture would look outlandish in another. I imagine that we might be horrified by biblical fashions (and vice versa). I think the reason that people feel uncomfortable about cross dressers is that they don't know how to respond to that person. Their dress and manner give the "wrong" signals. What's not clear (to me anyway) is whether that's because there's something sinful about what they are doing or just because we have been pushed outside our comfort zone.

quote:

And I find it very sad that you would compare this to a woman who wears makeup and jewelry.


How do you feel about cosmetic surgery (to which I also compared it)?

VJ



leah777 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 11:34:28 PM)



quote:

I think the reason that people feel uncomfortable about cross dressers is that they don't know how to respond to that person. Their dress and manner give the "wrong" signals.


Exactly! The wrong signals because their appearance does not correspond with their being. Unnatural.

If I had the money, I woudln't have a problem with cosmetic surgery. However, I can't really imagine me spending money on something like that . . a lot of need could be met with that kind of money. So, I don't feel there is anything Biblically wrong with it, but I would likely choose to put my money elsewhere.



Vejay -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (11/30/2006 11:55:17 PM)

quote:

Exactly! The wrong signals because their appearance does not correspond with their being. Unnatural.


Well now. Their appearance may not correspond to OUR notion of their being. They wouldn't see it that way.

Don't you think that we could have been having the same argument thirty years ago about men with long hair? Or sixty years ago about women in trousers? There's no absolute standard of appearance.

VJ



IMA_CHRISTIAN -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 12:15:13 AM)

Leah - this talented wonderful sometimes-female-impersonator-for-entertainment-purposes was more intuned to what I was saying than some other folks who are more mainstream and feel they are religious enough when they meet St Peter at the Gate (this is who they tell me they will meet up in heaven)).

You never know who is ready for the Lord! But not to get off topic,, if a person cross dresses, or even goes thru sex-change operation, and now becomes the other gender, is this any different than someone who goes thru cosmetic surgery for vanity purposes (I am not speaking of reconstructive surgery where its a must-have).

Everyone in each of those cases is changing their body parts. What is the difference? And not to hi-jack this topic to the issue of cosmetic surgery but think about this ethical question - Any cosmetic surgery - nose job, tummy tuck, whatever, along with sex-reassignment - is so that the person will feel more like the way they wish to feel. If you feel cross dressing is a sin, well then, since all sins are equal in God's eye, then vanity is also a sin. So what say you about these ethical concerns.



leah777 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 12:19:00 AM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: Vejay

quote:

Exactly! The wrong signals because their appearance does not correspond with their being. Unnatural.


Well now. Their appearance may not correspond to OUR notion of their being. They wouldn't see it that way.

Don't you think that we could have been having the same argument thirty years ago about men with long hair? Or sixty years ago about women in trousers? There's no absolute standard of appearance.

VJ


No, Vejay, I don't think it's the same at all. There are many styles of dress that I don't like and don't agree with, but I wouldn't go so far as to say those are unnatural, and against God's standards.

Styles change, ppl change. In Jesus' day, long hair was the accepted norm. Men dressing in robes and togas and short skirts was the style, the norm. But even tho men & women's dress were similar in appearance, a crossdresser would have still been obviously at odds -- with his environment, his culture, and his inner being.

You see, if the crossdresser was really "sure" about who he was, as you imply here
quote:

Well now. Their appearance may not correspond to OUR notion of their being. They wouldn't see it that way.
.. they would crossdress in such a fashion that we wouldn't know they were doing it, and they would seek surgery to change into what they think they are. I mean, that would make sense, if they really thought they should be the opposite sex. Now, I'm not promoting that, don't believe it's right, but I'm just saying if they were not confused themselves, this would be the logical approach to their problem.

You're absolutely right in saying they give the wrong signals -- that's a key point . . . it's ambiguity in it's highest form. It creates confusion, for the crossdresser as well as the ppl around him. (when I say him, I am meaning him or her) and we all know who is the author of confusion.




leah777 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 12:33:38 AM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: IMA_CHRISTIAN

You never know who is ready for the Lord! But not to get off topic,, if a person cross dresses, or even goes thru sex-change operation, and now becomes the other gender, is this any different than someone who goes thru cosmetic surgery for vanity purposes (I am not speaking of reconstructive surgery where its a must-have).

Everyone in each of those cases is changing their body parts. What is the difference? And not to hi-jack this topic to the issue of cosmetic surgery but think about this ethical question - Any cosmetic surgery - nose job, tummy tuck, whatever, along with sex-reassignment - is so that the person will feel more like the way they wish to feel. If you feel cross dressing is a sin, well then, since all sins are equal in God's eye, then vanity is also a sin. So what say you about these ethical concerns.


What I say is that it is not the same issue at all. Not even similar. You might call that vanity, but I'd go back to what I said earlier -- if that is vanity, then choosing clothes, hair styles, shoes that look good on us, or make us look better is also vanity. Tho, I don't believe that. I believe God gave us the good sense to take care of our body and to represent Him and ourselves in the best way we can -- from the inside out.

What would be sin is to have cosmetic surgery to "change into" someone we're not. When a person has surgery, they aren't "changing into" someone they're not, they are trying to make the best of what they have -- whether thru the use of cosmetics or cosmetic surgery, they -- the real person inside -- has not changed.

Crossdressers, OTOH, are sending very mixed signals about who they are inside. Very probably because they themselves are confused. And more to the point, crossdressers can hardly be a good representative for God when they are, by their very appearance, confusing ppl around them.



LordBeWithMeAlways -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 12:38:19 AM)

Just because you see something as "different" doesn't mean it's causing "confusion." How about we take it back a notch and take an example of an effeminate man. His nature is not to be macho-Hulk Hogan - let's say he is a bit soft-spoken and not confrontational, or anything associated with masculinity. Would you say there is something wrong with him because he doesn't adhere to social standards? I agree with you to a certain point on cross-dressing (depending on the reasoning behind it), but to say that anyone that's different is any less of a person and trying to cause "confusion" is wrong. God made us differently, and as long as we don't sin, then what's so wrong with it? (Cross-dressing for entertainment or for a skit or whatever seems fine, but if s/he lives as the opposite gender, I would suggest counsel of some sort, psychological or Christian or both.)



LordBeWithMeAlways -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 12:40:19 AM)

What about a person dressed head-to-toe in Dolce & Gabbana, wearing Chanel No5, with a pair of Christian Loubutin heels. Is this person vain or is this person superficial or is this person seeking approval from other people? I'm confused...

You can argue that plastic surgery is meant to change what God has given you. For what purpose other than vanity is there to change natural looks?



IMA_CHRISTIAN -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 12:47:02 AM)

In my opinion a person doing surgery for vanity purposes would be like if the little tiny tip of their nose was a millimeter off and they wanted to change it when their nose is perfectly OK and this might be a sin if it is prideful.

LordbewithmeAlways - naww,, they would be some of my neighbors just looking their best.

I really honestly dont know from first hand (living directly in another person's shoes) to know what they feel - confused, not confused, whatever.. I really dont know.. I can only point them to Christ. This would be anyone who needs the Lord. I just say God will make any necessary changes after salvation whatever that may be as they become sanctified each day.



Vejay -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 12:55:33 AM)

quote:

You see, if the crossdresser was really "sure" about who he was, as you imply here

quote:



Well now. Their appearance may not correspond to OUR notion of their being. They wouldn't see it that way.


.. they would crossdress in such a fashion that we wouldn't know they were doing it, and they would seek surgery to change into what they think they are. I mean, that would make sense, if they really thought they should be the opposite sex.


Part of the difficulty in this thread is that we're not consistently distinguishing between cross dressers and transexuals. I guess I was predominantly thinking of transexuals - but they do have a period of cross dressing before they have surgery.

I would agree though that anyone who *deliberately* dresses to shock or offend is being confrontational and will have to deal with the consequences. I'm sure some cross dressers fall into this category.

VJ



leah777 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 1:05:36 AM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: LordBeWithMeAlways

Just because you see something as "different" doesn't mean it's causing "confusion." How about we take it back a notch and take an example of an effeminate man. His nature is not to be macho-Hulk Hogan - let's say he is a bit soft-spoken and not confrontational, or anything associated with masculinity. Would you say there is something wrong with him because he doesn't adhere to social standards? I agree with you to a certain point on cross-dressing (depending on the reasoning behind it), but to say that anyone that's different is any less of a person and trying to cause "confusion" is wrong.


I never said any of those things, or were you addressing this to me?

BTW, I've known many effeminate men, and also many masculine women. Banish the thought that I would say they were sinning for being that way! Sheesh!! How did we get here, anyway???

quote:

God made us differently, and as long as we don't sin, then what's so wrong with it? (Cross-dressing for entertainment or for a skit or whatever seems fine, but if s/he lives as the opposite gender, I would suggest counsel of some sort, psychological or Christian or both.)


Therein is the key. Why is he/she crossdressing? If it is for a skit, for entertainment purposes, I might not like it, but I wouldn't declare it a sin. But, to the best of my knowledge, that is not really what this discussion has been about.

quote:

What about a person dressed head-to-toe in Dolce & Gabbana, wearing Chanel No5, with a pair of Christian Loubutin heels. Is this person vain or is this person superficial or is this person seeking approval from other people? I'm confused...


Would this be a man or woman?? Cuz the only one of those proper nouns I recognize is Chanel No5 . . hubby used to buy that for me every Christmas -- come to think of it, I miss it! Wish it hadn't gotten so expensive! [:D]

Honestly, you must be much more up-to-date on fashion than I, cuz you're talking Greek to me -- or French or sumthin' [sm=icon_smile_boggled.gif] ........... so who's more vain -- the person who pores over fashion magazines or the person who spends 10 minutes in front of the mirror every morning making herself look presentable?

So, I'm confused too . . is this person vain, or superficial or seeking approval? You tell me -- cuz I didn't see 'em! [:D]



LordBeWithMeAlways -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 1:18:19 AM)

I don't pore over fashion magazines. Those "nouns" are just kind of all over the place in TV, advertisements, and such. (And they've been there for a while. [:D] ) It's one thing to look presentable - another to get plastic surgery because one doesn't look young enough or doesn't feel s/he has the right shaped nose, or wants bigger lips. Aren't they causing confusion by trying to look younger or prettier? The 55 year old woman with four facelifts... she looks 35... hmm...

I agree with you that crossdressing is wrong if done because of some psychological distortion. But to say that they cause "confusion" is misleading because to them, they are just living their lives as they feel comfortable in their body. What is there to be confused about a man/woman dressed as a woman/man?

My point in bringing up the effeminate men is that just because they deviate from what society considers normal doesn't mean they're trying to be confusing. Likewise, crossdressers don't do it intentionally to cause confusion; it's just how they see themselves in their body for whatever reason. And when you said "we all know who is the author of confusion." Well... gee... I wonder to what low-life fallen angel you're referring... You basically said their "confusion" is caused by the devil. That may or may not be the case, who knows, but to call a crossdresser the result of the devil is a hindrance to their salvation. They need to be shown with kindness and love that this is not the lifestyle God wants for them and that they must change.



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 1:20:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

ORIGINAL: uschaplain

In addition, some folks are XXY, which is called Klinefelter's Syndrome. They have the sexual organs of both male and female. In fact, I know a U.S. Army Chaplain, who is serving on active duty, who is XXY. I also know a Southern Baptist minister, who is a chimera, who can no longer serve in the ordained ministry because he is a chimera, who likes wearing female clothing.


I do recall about nuclear nondisjunction which leads to the XXY or XYY chromosome situations. I had read that true hermaphrodism (fully functional male and female plumbing) is almost always from chimerism. I was not aware that XXY could lead to that too - although it does make sense.


I think all those sex chromosome disorders have the ability to lead to having both sets of parts. I'm sure it doesn't happen often...but there are things like Turner's syndrome, Triple-X syndrome, XXXX, Fragile X syndrome for girls and an XXXY syndrome for men, but that's another form of Kleinfelter's. I guess those would still be forms of androgen insensitivity syndrome...or they could have a mutated AR gene.

quote:

The average Christian doesn't know these distinctions. They see everything as black and white, male or female. The tendency is to associate these other categories with sexual sins, which is inapproriate unless they are commiting fornication, adultery, or other.


quote:

You mean people are ignorant? What a revelation!
Why are they ignorant of spiritual matters? Because pastors have not rightly divided the word of truth to their congregants. They have presented these issues in those black and white with no nuance for these situations.


I guess what I hear a lot is that these people "choose" to be this way, and they should choose to be the right way. My opinion is that there are many people that are this way that don't know it (just my opinion) because they haven't been karyotyped to see. Things just aren't always that simple. I remember seeing a set of twins. Even when they were little, one had the likeness of a boy, but the other looked like a girl (they were both girls on the outside). She said she always felt she was "meant" to be a boy, and it turns out that she had a genetic problem. It's not always black and white. I think what I'm wondering is which is "right" for them...the inside, or the outside? Or does it not matter? Most of the people that crossdress that I know feel that they're meant to be the opposite gender and were "born wrong." That very well could be the case (as in they have internal problems).

One of my professors lived in the Midwest when she was working on her dissertation. She was studying sociology and she ran across an Indian tribe that was open to the fact things aren't always black and white...I think they call themselves "two-spirit people." They make the distinction between gender and biology...intersexes and such. I found a bunch of stuff about them, but here's a wikipedia article.



leah777 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 9:19:14 AM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: LordBeWithMeAlways

I don't pore over fashion magazines. Those "nouns" are just kind of all over the place in TV, advertisements, and such. (And they've been there for a while. [:D] ) It's one thing to look presentable - another to get plastic surgery because one doesn't look young enough or doesn't feel s/he has the right shaped nose, or wants bigger lips. Aren't they causing confusion by trying to look younger or prettier? The 55 year old woman with four facelifts... she looks 35... hmm...


I mute most ads .... guess that's why I haven't heard them, or maybe I'm not watching the right channel.

quote:

I agree with you that crossdressing is wrong if done because of some psychological distortion. But to say that they cause "confusion" is misleading because to them, they are just living their lives as they feel comfortable in their body. What is there to be confused about a man/woman dressed as a woman/man?

Well, if it is a man dress as a woman, do you address him as a man or a woman?? If it's a woman dressed as a man, do you address her as a woman -- if she's trying to look like a man, she may be insulted. OTOH, if she's just being entertaining, to address her as a man may not be good either. What is NOT confusing about that??? I'm not the one who brought that up, but it's a very valid point

quote:

My point in bringing up the effeminate men is that just because they deviate from what society considers normal doesn't mean they're trying to be confusing. Likewise, crossdressers don't do it intentionally to cause confusion; it's just how they see themselves in their body for whatever reason. And when you said "we all know who is the author of confusion." Well... gee... I wonder to what low-life fallen angel you're referring...

Thought you'd be able to figure that out, though I wasn't trying to be vague or anything. In his first letter to the Corinthians, Paul states God is not the author of confusion. Doesn't exactly state that Satan is, but the implication is pretty strong. I was merely referring to that in making my point.
You basically said their "confusion" is caused by the devil. That may or may not be the case, who knows, but to call a crossdresser the result of the devil is a hindrance to their salvation.

I never said the crossdresser was the result of the devil, although you're close -- this kind of deviate behavior is, ultimately the result of Satan's influence in this world.

quote:

They need to be shown with kindness and love that this is not the lifestyle God wants for them and that they must change.


Of course! And I've never said nor implied anything differently.



DaveW -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 9:31:43 AM)

quote:

Well, if it is a man dress as a woman, do you address him as a man or a woman?? If it's a woman dressed as a man, do you address her as a woman -- if she's trying to look like a man, she may be insulted. OTOH, if she's just being entertaining, to address her as a man may not be good either. What is NOT confusing about that??? I'm not the one who brought that up, but it's a very valid point

And if a xx-xy chimera dresses up as either, it is confusing. This person started at conception as 2 completely different people, one male and one female. If - as we have maintianed - life begins at conception, there are TWO different lives here, one male and one female.

How do we get past that confusion?



leah777 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 9:48:50 AM)


Dave, that would not be something they have chosen, but rather an accident of nature. Those aberrancies are much too deep for me to theorize on, nor do I want to try. I certainly don't think a person like that is "sinful" simply because he/she was born that way.

But what I'm talking about is ppl who have chosen to crossdress . . . and I do not believe that underneath every crossdressers strange dress is an aberrancy of nature. Rather, I believe the bigger part of these ppl choose to do it to draw attention to themselves.

BTW, Louvena is beautiful!! [sm=icon_smile.gif]



LordBeWithMeAlways -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 10:28:02 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leah777


Rather, I believe the bigger part of these ppl choose to do it to draw attention to themselves.



They just want to be like everyone else; for one reason or another, they feel like they are the opposite gender and dress that way. Why would they want to draw attention to themselves and try to be different from everyone else? The only reason they stick out is because it's very hard for a man to look like a woman and vice-versa; it's not like they wake up in the morning and say, "Hmm.. what can I wear today so people can stare at me?" Do you not think it's embarassing for them to have people stare them when they're walking down the street? I don't agree with that lifestyle, just your reasoning behind why they do it.



leah777 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 10:46:36 AM)


No, I don't think it's embarrassing for them, I think that is what they are seeking, at least most of them.



LordBeWithMeAlways -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 10:54:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: leah777


No, I don't think it's embarrassing for them, I think that is what they are seeking, at least most of them.


I don't think they're embarassed that they crossdress, just when people stare at them, point fingers, or make comments. I highly doubt anyone in their right mind would want to be subjected through that. They just want to live normal lives and they happen to dress as the opposite gender. Is it sinful? I guess that depends on the reasoning behind it. I think you're confusing different types of crossdressers: those that dress as cheerleaders and divas with big giant orange wigs during gay pride parades and those that just want to live normal lives and fit in.



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