RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (Full Version)

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leah777 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 11:27:17 AM)


You know, I really don't know any crossdressers personally, so I can't pretend to know what they think . . or really even their reasoning behind why they do what they do. I do have a homosexual nephew (whom I love very much) who loves to dress in women's clothing and also loves to flaunt it. If they want to fit in, what they are doing just doesn't make any sense at all.

Yes, they need our love and compassion and everything that Jesus has to offer them; and I've never stared nor pointed fingers at anyone in my life -- well, at least not since I was two or three and that would have only been at my sisters or brothers [;)] . . .. . that is a ridiculous way to treat anyone, and certainly not Christlike! And, I haven't read anything in this entire thread that would indicate anyone here would be in agreement with doing something like that.

No one is saying we shouldn't love them and witness to them, but I am saying they are confused, and they need healing. They need not to continue their behavior, especially if they want to a part of His Kingdom.



solo_soprano22 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 2:11:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

Well, if it is a man dress as a woman, do you address him as a man or a woman?? If it's a woman dressed as a man, do you address her as a woman -- if she's trying to look like a man, she may be insulted. OTOH, if she's just being entertaining, to address her as a man may not be good either. What is NOT confusing about that??? I'm not the one who brought that up, but it's a very valid point

And if a xx-xy chimera dresses up as either, it is confusing. This person started at conception as 2 completely different people, one male and one female. If - as we have maintianed - life begins at conception, there are TWO different lives here, one male and one female.

How do we get past that confusion?


I wonder why it would be "wrong" though (as some have stated-- not you I don't think). If ONE person is BOTH male AND female, then how can they really dress "wrong"?

I know of women that look like men (they are chromosomally men), but were born with female parts (outwardly). If they dress like a woman, people think they are crossdressing; if they dress like a man, people think they are "all" man. But who is to say what is right for them? They're both.



uschaplain -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 2:13:14 PM)

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: uschaplain

First, are you saying all crossdressers are crossdressing all the time they crossdress to deceive, to sexually entice, and/or to be vain? A woman can pad her bra, dress seductively, or dress for vainglory, but certainly not all women all the time dress in this manner. Why do you imply crossdressers do?
quote:



quote:


Because a woman dressing like a woman, or a man dressing like a man, is not unheard of - in fact, it's quite common. Crossdressing is not like deciding to wear socks on your ears or hats on your feet. I am not trying to imply that "they crossdress to deceive, to sexually entice, and/or to be vain." I am flat-out saying it. Either they are mentally/emotionally unstable in some way or they do it because they know people do not like it (or for those who do like it). There is nothing that shows/proves that it is anything else.


Your views differ from mine. In most cases, I do not see crossdressing as a mental/emotional/psychological probem. I do not see crossdressing, in an of itself, as being sinful. Most crossdressers do not want to draw attention to themselves. They want to blend. Man looks on the outward appearance, but God looks upon the heart.

What evidence do you have that heterosexual, non-fetish, crossdressing is a mental/emotional disorder? What evidence do you have that it is rebellion against God?

Just as genetic women can dress in feminine clothing to deceive [i.e., padded bras], to sexually entice, or for vainglory, tt is possible for crossdressers can do the same. That does not mean all genetic women or crossdressers dress to deceive, entice, or for vanity.



uschaplain -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 2:42:05 PM)

Leah said:
quote:

I am a woman. I will do all these things, and more if needed to continue to feel like and look like a woman.


Leah, this comment by you is interesting. As a genetic woman, when do you feel you are less than a woman? Why do you need to dress in a certain way to feel like and look like a woman? Are there times the way you dress takes away from your feelings of feeling like and looking like a woman? Do you sometimes choose to wear clothing that makes you feel and look less like a woman? If so, why? I'm not trying to tell you how you feel or why you feel it. I simply want to better understand.



uschaplain -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 2:48:29 PM)

Leah said,
quote:

If it's a woman dressed as a man, do you address her as a woman -- if she's trying to look like a man, she may be insulted.


Leah, my wife has a friend whose name is Bobbi, but prefers to be called Bob. I also know women like Stephanie, who goes by Steve, and Samantha, who goes by Sam. All these abbreviations are traditionally male names. All these women are heterosexual women. Some women deliberately chose male pseudonyms for the articles and books they have written.

Leah, the simple response is this, you call them by the name they would like to be called. Something like, "Please help me and remind me of your name." Let them say who they are and how they want to be called.



leah777 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 2:59:51 PM)


No, I there is truthfully no time I look or feel less of a woman. What I should have said, and what I was really meaning, is that I would and will continue to do these things to help me look as attractive a woman as I can be.

As I stated in that same paragraph, most ppl wouldn't find me particularly attractive, but with some help from cosmetics, I at least don't look like I've got some dreadful disease resulting in a pasty complexion, dark circles, etc. And we won't even get into the whole menopause thing that brings it's own little treasures for us to deal with.

My point was, if this is considered pretence by some, sobeit, but I don't.



uschaplain -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 3:18:25 PM)

There are many kinds of Crossdressers. To be clear in our discussions, lets try to be more precise in our terms. I don't like terms, but they do, at times, serve a purpose.
1. The MUGS, men who wear unbifurcated garments. The Scots, who wear kilts, or the Bravehearts.
2. The Rebel crossdressers, who wear female clothing because they believe people in America should be able to wear whatever they want without society telling them otherwise. They want to be free to wear what they want and when they want.
3. The Shock crossdressers, who wear female clothes and act like men in them. This group also includes the Goth crossdressers.
4. The Sports Fanatics crossdressers, who dress outrageously in a parody against women, at sporting events.
5. The Token crossdressers, who wear something of their girlfriends. Soldiers will sometimes wear their loved ones scarf, handkerchief, or yes, even panties, around their necks or on their person, like a female wears her boyfriends letter jacket.
6. The Practical crossdressers, men who wear hose to prevent blisters on their feet, support pantyhose to help blood circulation due to varicose veins, or a waist cinture to reduce their midrift bulge/tire.
7. The female impersonators, who may be heterosexual or other, who crossdress to entertain for a living.
8. The Drag Queen, these are the homosexual crossdressers, who dress flamboyantly for attention.
9. The transvestite or fetish crossdresser. This person crossdresses or uses clothing or items of the opposite sex for sexual fantasy and gratification.
10. The heterosexual, non-fetish, crossdresser may be of several types.
10a. The under-dresser, who wears, at times, female clothing under his male clothing.
10b. The partial-dresser, who wears, at times, some female underclothing or female outer clothing, but not completely, that is, some clothing is male and some is female.
10c. The over-dresser, who wears, at times, female under and outer clothing.
10d. The androgynous crossdress, who wears, at times, items of clothing that could be male or female or are unisex clothing, but not a uniform.
10e. The transgenderist, who wears androgynous or female clothing much of the time. They may live several days at a time, a week or more. They have not had surgery to change/remove their biological sexual organs. They may have electolysis to remove facial hair or take hormones.
11. The transsexual, who believes their minds are of the opposite gender to their biological sex. They may have electolysis to remove facial hair and take hormones. They have the Benjamin standard of care. They live as a woman for a year, before having surgery. These individuals are either:
11a. Permanently Pre-op transsexuals. They do not elect to have surgery for one or several reasons.
11b. Pre-op transsexuals. They are saving and planning to have sexual reassignment surgery.
11c. Post-op transsexuals. They have had the sexual reassignment surgery and are legally declared to be women.



leah777 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 4:00:39 PM)


Ok, now that would seriously confuse me, if I let myself think about it much, which I won't. But I will say that I think it's outrageous that some of those would be called crossdressers!! Sheesh!!!

quote:

1. The MUGS, men who wear unbifurcated garments. The Scots, who wear kilts, or the Bravehearts


4. The Sports Fanatics crossdressers, who dress outrageously in a parody against women, at sporting events.
5. The Token crossdressers, who wear something of their girlfriends. Soldiers will sometimes wear their loved ones scarf, handkerchief, or yes, even panties, around their necks or on their person, like a female wears her boyfriends letter jacket.
6. The Practical crossdressers, men who wear hose to prevent blisters on their feet, support pantyhose to help blood circulation due to varicose veins, or a waist cinture to reduce their midrift bulge/tire.
7. The female impersonators, who may be heterosexual or other, who crossdress to entertain for a living.



It's just silly. And I stand here and now to say I was referring to NONE of the above in anything I've said in this thread. Some people just aren't satisfied unless they are categorizing and theorizing and psychoanalyzing every person who walks the face of the earth [sm=shakinghead.gif] .......... and I'm not saying you are the one who has made up this list, USChaplain, but you've posted it, so I'm commenting.



Bro_Shane -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 4:44:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RaeLouiseWall

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
Because a woman dressing like a woman, or a man dressing like a man, is not unheard of - in fact, it's quite common. Crossdressing is not like deciding to wear socks on your ears or hats on your feet. I am not trying to imply that "they crossdress to deceive, to sexually entice, and/or to be vain." I am flat-out saying it. Either they are mentally/emotionally unstable in some way or they do it because they know people do not like it (or for those who do like it). There is nothing that shows/proves that it is anything else.


In reading this sort of response I can only conclude that you are not a trained psychologist; therefore it is not an accurate statement to "flat-out say" that a crossdresser is mentally/emotionally unstable does not hold water.


So, since I am not a " trained psychologist" I can't have an opinion? Not even an informed one? Nice tactics, though. Discount the person so the argument naturally follows...ummm...what is that called again? [8|]

quote:

ORIGINAL: LordBeWithMeAlways

It's one thing to be fundamentalist. It's another to show compassion and love to those that are lost and in need of Christ. We are all sinful, rebellious, and not worthy of God's love; yet, He sent His one and only Son and through grace alone can we be saved. Jesus taught us humility. We should humble ourselves and take the plank out of our eyes.


I assume that was directed at me. If so, please go back and read my previous posts. If not - who are you referring to?


quote:

ORIGINAL: RaeLouiseWall

This statement brings me right back to the question I have raised here multiple times without an answer that meets the question.

What about the act of crossdressing is sin? Show me accurate Biblical proof that this is sin and we can carry on from there.



I would refer you back to my post #58, but then since I quoted scripture (and since I do not give personal information out on the net), I'm afraid it would mean nothing to you since I will not share my pastoral credentials with you. Nice and tidy way to cut the legs out of an argument without actually having to refute it:

quote:

So far all that seems to come out is the Deut verse, which was quite eloquently explained earlier here by USChaplin who has a Doctorate in theology quote:

"I have a Master's degree in counseling and a Ph.D. in Biblical studies."

carries much more weight than simply professing personal opinion with no tangible scriptural backing for it.


OK, you'll take someone who agrees with you - you'll take their word yet assume I have no formal training? You are not helping your position among people who think.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Vejay

quote:

Exactly! The wrong signals because their appearance does not correspond with their being. Unnatural.


Well now. Their appearance may not correspond to OUR notion of their being. They wouldn't see it that way.

Don't you think that we could have been having the same argument thirty years ago about men with long hair? Or sixty years ago about women in trousers? There's no absolute standard of appearance.

VJ


Well, its about time someone started to drag the "everything's relative" argument into this. Yes, there's no absolute standard of appearance, but there is when dealing with issues of faith, morality, and sin. This whole notion of dress and how we appear is nothing more than a red herring.

This has degenerated into nothing more than a "we need to love everyone, Kumbaya" thread without really stopping to consider the aspects of biblical love (what God says it is, not our definition of what we think it should be) and common sense - and it only took five pages to get us there.



leah777 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 5:05:45 PM)

quote:

This has degenerated into nothing more than a "we need to love everyone, Kumbaya" thread without really stopping to consider the aspects of biblical love (what God says it is, not our definition of what we think it should be) and common sense - and it only took five pages to get us there.


Well said, Bro_Shane!



LordBeWithMeAlways -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 5:57:39 PM)

Of course we are to love everyone. Isn't that what Jesus commanded? But Leah, you yourself admitted you don't know any crossdressers and you refer to your homosexual nephew. That is ONE person, and you can't draw conclusions based on that. Maybe HE is trying to be rebellious, but stereotyping isn't right. To someone who doesn't believe crossdressing is wrong, just saying they are sinful and casting stones and calling them rebellious and trying to be different just to be different is not helpful. If they are Christian crossdressers, then I believe you should counsel them and tell they they need guidance, but for a non-believer who has yet to accept the Lord, judmental views can only hurt. What IS biblical love? Isn't it trying to understand their issues and trying to help them through the love of Christ? How do you propose we approach a crossdresser? Tell them they're trying to be rebellious and shock people? And crossdressing does not equal homosexuality. Sure, there are a lot of homosexuals that crossdress, but most do not.

"So, since I am not a " trained psychologist" I can't have an opinion? Not even an informed one? Nice tactics, though. Discount the person so the argument naturally follows...ummm...what is that called again? "

It's not an informed opinion, just an opinion. Where exactly do you derive your conclusions that crossdressers do it because other people don't like it? Of course some do, but not all.



leah777 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 7:17:48 PM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: LordBeWithMeAlways

Of course we are to love everyone. Isn't that what Jesus commanded? But Leah, you yourself admitted you don't know any crossdressers and you refer to your homosexual nephew. That is ONE person, and you can't draw conclusions based on that. Maybe HE is trying to be rebellious, but stereotyping isn't right. To someone who doesn't believe crossdressing is wrong, just saying they are sinful and casting stones and calling them rebellious and trying to be different just to be different is not helpful. If they are Christian crossdressers, then I believe you should counsel them and tell they they need guidance, but for a non-believer who has yet to accept the Lord, judmental views can only hurt. What IS biblical love? Isn't it trying to understand their issues and trying to help them through the love of Christ? How do you propose we approach a crossdresser? Tell them they're trying to be rebellious and shock people? And crossdressing does not equal homosexuality. Sure, there are a lot of homosexuals that crossdress, but most do not.



LBWM, where do you get all this stuff???? I've have never suggested, which I've pointed out to you at least once maybe 2 or 3 times already, that we should treat these ppl like that! See, you just pull stuff out of a hat, or thin air or something, and throw your accusations around. Neither did I say that homosexuality leads to crossdressing, or vice versa or whatever it is you're trying to say there.

I merely pointed to the one person that I do know personally, and even pointed out that I do love this boy -- well, he's a man now, but since he's my nephew, I'll probably always consider him a boy, and though I didn't say it, I pray for him. And given an opportunity, I'd gladly witness to him. He's especially dear to my heart since he made a profession of faith at my church and was even baptised there(this was before his homosexual days).

I even stated in that paragraph that I knew no crossdressers, so couldn't begin to know how they think or why they do what they do. Obviously, you must know lots of them cuz you seem to know what all of them are thinking and doing and why they are doing it. Don't mean to be sarcastic, but that was really my point there the first time around.

Neither have I said anyone was trying to be rebellious.

Nor have I indicated in any way that I've been judgemental with them, or would be, or that I have not or would not show them compassion. In fact, maybe you should read this from an earlier post, cuz you've obviously missed it . . .
quote:

Yes, they need our love and compassion and everything that Jesus has to offer them; and I've never stared nor pointed fingers at anyone in my life -- well, at least not since I was two or three and that would have only been at my sisters or brothers . . .. . that is a ridiculous way to treat anyone, and certainly not Christlike! And, I haven't read anything in this entire thread that would indicate anyone here would be in agreement with doing something like that.

No one is saying we shouldn't love them and witness to them, but I am saying they are confused, and they need healing. They need not to continue their behavior, especially if they want to a part of His Kingdom.


Just because I don't think we should glide around the truth, you have decided that I don't love them, that I don't think they are worthy of being counseled or having compassion shown them, or having the love of Jesus shown or taught them. Are you just enjoying the argument? Is that what this has become to you? Because you are certainly doing some stretching to make these kinds of statements. If you can't make your point, LBWM, without false accusations, maybe you should give it up.

Please don't address me and tell me I'm saying things I'm not.



LordBeWithMeAlways -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 7:47:04 PM)

rcjames (post 11): Well shucks, if some cross-dressing, transgender type folks want to fellowship at my Church; they are welcome, as long as they repent of thier rebellion, sin, and craziness.
rcjames (post 18): Open rebellious sin has no place in the Church; never has, never will.
Bro_Shane (post 53): The behavior stems from something, and is a manifestation of some problem or condition that has either yet been addressed or repressed, or accepted as normal (perhaps even to rebel against their idea of "normal").
Bro_Shane (post 61): Either they are mentally/emotionally unstable in some way or they do it because they know people do not like it (or for those who do like it).
leah777: refer to all of post 67


I NEVER said crossdressing is right, excusable, or OK. All I wanted to convey was that we don't know the reasoning behind it, and we have no right to say they are being rebellious intentionally. I guess I saw your agreement with rcjames and Bro_Shane as your saying they are being rebellious. I'm sorry I grouped you with them. We are just as rebellious as they are and have no right to say their sin is any worse than any we commit every day. We need to pray for them and if we know one in person, we should try to reach them with the love of Christ. That is all I wanted to convey. Honestly, how can you reach them if you believe in your heart that they are crazy, rebellious, and sinful? Yes, they are, but so are we.

Again, I didn't mean to turn this into a fracas, but we should not think we're so much better than any other sinner. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, leah777, and I hope you don't think I'm a bad person. We are a body of Christ and we are to stand in unity with the name and love of Christ as our banner. (And if singing kumbaya means we reach a lost soul, then I see nothing wrong with that.)



leah777 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 8:49:49 PM)



quote:

ORIGINAL: LordBeWithMeAlways

Again, I didn't mean to turn this into a fracas, but we should not think we're so much better than any other sinner. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding, leah777, and I hope you don't think I'm a bad person. We are a body of Christ and we are to stand in unity with the name and love of Christ as our banner. (And if singing kumbaya means we reach a lost soul, then I see nothing wrong with that.)


There you go again! No one has said we are better than any other sinner. Please stop generalizing, LBWM, or ad-libbing, or whatever it is you are doing that is making us sound like we're saying things we're not. It's simply no way to debate an issue.

That having been said, yes, I did say I agreed with RCJames and Bro_Shane, and I won't retract that, cuz I've not read anything in this thread that I disagree with. So for the rebellious statement, I owe you an apology, because they did say that, and I did agree with it. I'm sorry.

However, you are still generalizing, and ad-libbing. You need to sift carefully thru what is really being said, and what you are supposing is being meant. They are not the same.

No one is suggesting we judge them
quote:

Just because I don't think we should glide around the truth, you have decided that I don't love them, that I don't think they are worthy of being counseled or having compassion shown them, or having the love of Jesus shown or taught them.
This is simply not true, LBWM . . I mean, no one has said we shouldn't show them the same compassion we would show anyone else. Of course we should!

See, you're wanting to judge us just as you accuse us of judging them. You assume that just because we think they should repent of their sin, and yes, we are calling it a sin, that we don't think they are worthy of our time and compassion -- or maybe even of God's mercy. We've none said that. Only that they need to repent of that sin. And they do.

I for one do not expect them to do it the minute they walk thru the door of the church,. Witnessing, winning a soul to Christ takes time and patience, and would never be successful without the work of the Holy Spirit calling that soul out.

But showing them compassion does not mean excusing the sin as something they are born with or they can't help. Sometimes we need to see God in the Just light of the Holy Bible. He IS a God of love. But He is also just, and He won't excuse sin. He can't. Because of His very holiness, He can't accept it, can't be around it. That's why Jesus had to die, to be our sin covering, to shield us from His view -- and Him from our view -- we also could not stand to look upon the shekinah glory of God.

To try to win these ppl without ever being honest with them about the sinfulness of what they are doing is not helping them. In fact, it's doing them a great disservice. And that is what I hear being said here -- we need to point them to Him. Hopefully, He can work with them to help them clean up their life.

AND, for the record, no, I do NOT think you're a bad person.



LordBeWithMeAlways -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 9:29:45 PM)

"but we should not think we're so much better than any other sinner."

I said WE, not you or anyone. WE, in general, should be careful about thinking someone's sin is greater than ours. I never said you implied or believed that. But now that you mention it, rcjames, think whether or not calling someone crazy and rebellious will win their hearts to God.

I NEVER, repeat NEVER NEVER NEVER, said not to call it a sin. All I said was we shouldn't generalize about why they crossdress and we should take their situation into consideration when trying to approach them and tell them the way of the Lord.

Why do you think I'm condoning crossdressing? My ONLY issue is that we simply don't know what causes it and shouldn't just blindly say they are rebellious and such. The tone and manner in which we approach them matters a lot. We both agree that it's not right. I only had one issue, and that's been cleared up.



IMA_CHRISTIAN -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 9:30:20 PM)

uschaplain - wow what a list! you forgot a couple -

Actors - who crossdress as part of the script, i.e. the movie "Some Like it Hot" with Tony Curtis.
Halloween - where folks can express their wildest idea for a costume.
Humiliation- in a crime the criminal can humiliate the victim by making them cross dress (this could be real or playing a game)
Experiment- some people experiment with trying to find themselves, so they cross dress, it could be innocent as little kids playing dress up, or a teenager entering puberty trying to find their gender identity if they have a curiosity or question.
Cant find their clothes - some people wake up and cant find their clothes and have to wear the nearest thing and all they can find to wear is clothes of the opposite gender.
Androgynous - people who dress androgynously in order to have fun with fighting the "norm" and they wear clothes of the opposte gender in order to have no apparant gender.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



RaeLouiseWall -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/1/2006 11:44:13 PM)

quote:


Romans 14:13-18 Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way. [14] I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that there is nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him it is unclean. [15] But if thy brother be grieved with thy meat, now walkest thou not charitably. Destroy not him with thy meat, for whom Christ died. [16] Let not then your good be evil spoken of: [17] For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. [18] For he that in these things serveth Christ is acceptable to God, and approved of men.

I Corinthians 8:9 But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.

This can be taken to mean anything at all. Anything that anyone does on this earth is bound to be offensive, or potentially cause someone to stumble so I suppose one can take this verse and use it to condemn the act of crossdressing. I wonder though, how is seeing a person wearing clothing associated with his opposite birth gender cause someone to stumble? Is this the same concept of seeing an ad for McDonalds Big Mac will cause a dieter to stumble and therefore if a Christian owns a McDonalds he should not advertise such things? Or perhaps a Christian who owns (or works) at a restaurant that sells alcohol. Should they sell the business, or quit that job because someone who may have an alcohol problem could stumble while there?

I am not trying to argue here at all. I am simply asking a straight forward question and have yet to get the answer. I have had all sorts of peripheral verses, which all make sense for what they are for, but seem to have no tangible link the question posed.

quote:


I Corinthians 6:12-13 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. [13] Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body.

That teaching says that we are free to do many things that scripture does not specifically exclude. However, whether we are free to do them or not should always be tempered with our concern - not for ourselves - but for our brothers and sisters in Christ and the lost around us. If that thing would cause such, then we should gladly do without it becasue doing so serves the purpose of God better than our freedom to do (or have) it.


This is reasonable assuming that the type of crossdresser we are referring to here is doing this out of selfish reasons. Most of the people I have encountered who are crossdressers and are Christian have expressed that they have prayed for many years to be delivered, made vows with God, went willingly to Christian therapists (who typically have little or no experience with gender identity issues) time and time again and still crossdress. If one can do without crossdressing, then I agree with this; however what about those who can’t do without it? What do they do? Should they attempt to use “brute force” to suppress this need because there may be someone out there on this earth who may stumble because of his crossdressing? This is harmful to the to the body in terms of depression, high blood pressure, anger issues, substance abuse and even suicide. So what is best for those?

quote:


So, since I am not a " trained psychologist" I can't have an opinion? Not even an informed one? Nice tactics, though. Discount the person so the argument naturally follows...ummm...what is that called again?


excuse me, I did not say you can not have an opinion, I said

quote:


In reading this sort of response I can only conclude that you are not a trained psychologist; therefore it is not an accurate statement to "flat-out say" that a crossdresser is mentally/emotionally unstable does not hold water.


I am not being argumentative, nor am I trying spark an argument, but rather have rational discussion on an issue that honestly most people, Christian or otherwise know little if anything about.

quote:


OK, you'll take someone who agrees with you - you'll take their word yet assume I have no formal training? You are not helping your position among people who think.


OK, I’ll concede that I do not know your formal training. I also know that I have not disagreed with your verses as much as questioned them and asked how they are relative to the topic? To me, most of them seem to have little or no direct bearing on the issue. There are snippets of truth pertaining to things we are
discussing, which I believe I have pointed out each time.

quote:


This has degenerated into nothing more than a "we need to love everyone, Kumbaya" thread without really stopping to consider the aspects of biblical love (what God says it is, not our definition of what we think it should be) and common sense - and it only took five pages to get us there.


I disagree with you. For the most part people here have stressed the value of Biblical love and what we need to do as Christians to understand a crossdresser, perhaps even learn that maybe, just maybe they are not perverts, deviants, or evil people, but rather children of God, who for whatever reason, (discussed multiple times already) have this compelling need to present themselves at times in the clothing and appearance opposite of the birth gender. Christ died for you, me and even the crossdresser. He wants you, me and even the Crossdresser to seek Him first.



IMA_CHRISTIAN -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/2/2006 10:13:57 PM)

Hey to anyone who is a cross dresser, or a good person, or a liar, or a fornicator, or just anything, we all had to come to the Lord, and then God makes us new. Lets try to get the person saved and let God do His work in the person whatever that may be. I dont understand what its like to be that person directly (walking in his shoes) but I do know that Jesus died for them. And thats the #1 priority. I would love to hear from a person who feels they are born genetically diffferent, then get saved, then tell what God did for them.



car2462 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/3/2006 12:23:52 PM)

Hello,

I have been watching this thread with some interest as it pertains directly to me. I had noticed that there have been 1 or 2 of the writers who have felt that their toes had been stepped on (my words) as well as those who seem to think that they are able to pinpoint what those like me need.

With that in mind, I would like to present parts 1 and 2 of a scene of what this, and any situation is really all about. Although this is not a true story I believe the principal will make sense.

I was watching television the other night and the program was interrupted with a special bulletin saying that it had been just verified by all Christian scholars that the Lord Jesus Christ had just come back to the earth, in the flesh for a temporary visit. That He is located in your country,village, town, city, not far from where you live.
As you are watching the program there is a knock at the door and as you answer the door you realize that there is an angel of the the Lord standing there. He has just told you that the Lord Jesus would like you to come to speak with Him about some things in your life as soon as possible.

You are a cross dresser who is dressed in your finest clothing when the angel came.

You are a transvestite (one who for whatever reasons dresses in the clothing of the opposite gender) and you are in the clothing of your opposite gender.

You are a transsexual (one who believes that they are of the opposite gender of their external gender) and you are dressed as the gender you believe you are.

The question is: How would you go? Would you change clothes as quick as you can and then go?, Would you attempt to hide from the Lord? Look deep into your heart, mind, and soul before you answer as your answer will determine your relationship (if any) with Jesus.

For you who have been blessed without the above conflicts the following might apply:

You have just gotten off the phone with someone that wants to come to your church on Sunday, You do not know if they are saved or not but you have just told them that they are not welcome in your church if they are dressed as the opposite gender.

You are a person who wants to allow others to live and let live and so you do not choose to take a stand.
--------------------------------------------------------
Now back to reality for a moment. I have not picked on anyone to hurt nor to castigate. I have read all of the posts on this thread and tried to put them in summary form in my opinion so please do not take offense.
The reason I have done this is to try to point out that this is really what it is all about and that is our relationship to Jesus Christ first and to others second.

As to how I would appear? Well, I will answer that but in part 2 of this post



car2462 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/3/2006 12:25:57 PM)

Part 2

I promised in the last post that I would tell you how I would go before the Lord. The reason that I did not is because I wanted to explain why I would and the previous post was getting long.

I would stand before the Lord Jesus Christ in whatever I was wearing. Why clothing is such a big deal I do not understand as I would be wearing the clothing of the appropriate gender that I am.

First off, I am not homosexual, I am not a cross dresser, I am certainly not a transvestite nor am I transgendered. For those of you who simply must have and apply labels I would be considered a male to female transsexual. What does that mean? Quite simply put (well, not so simple I guess) I was born outwardly with the organs of a male and from as far as I am capable of remembering I knew that within my very heart and soul that I am a female. I was raised as a boy and I knew that my parents needed to understand that I was not a boy but a girl. It got to such a point that they began on a regular basis to beat me (physically and verbally) to force this notion out of my head. For a period of time it was on a daily basis. I still have some of the scars and bones in my back that never healed properly from being thrown down the stairs to prove it.

What I learned was to never, ever allow anyone to know that I was a different gender inside then outside as I grew older. When I was 10 I would sneak into the forbidden sections of the public library to try to learn about who I was (this was in the 1950's).

I don't want to give you a complete life's history on me, I do not ask for your pity nor do I ask you to feel sorry for me. It took me a long time in my adult life to finally admit and see me for who I am.

So who am I? I am a woman. Pure and simple, a woman. Regardless of what is or is not between my legs I am a woman.

I have the emotions, thoughts, needs, and wants of a woman and I have had these from an early age. You want conflict? Try going through puberty like this, or as an adult try convincing your pastor that you don't belong in a men's bible study.

One of the saddest things I ever heard was on the radio I was listening to my favorite talk show host and he was talking about transsexuals when someone who called in was trying to explain it to him and he interrupted them by saying that he would rather that they lived as a homosexual then have the male to female surgery. Yuk! I will not even address that, but, I did on that day understand why most men and women believe what they do about people like me (for another time).

So, what does it all come down to? Did God make a mistake? Good grief no, God does not make mistakes but He does allow things into our lives that we may not be able to understand.

You may say that I was born with a mental defect while I believe that I was born with a birth defect.
You may say that God only made 2 genders, male and female and that there is no 3rd sex, and you know what? I agree. I was was born female with the outward appearance of a male and I wear the clothing of the gender that I am (female). As I mentioned above I do not understand the clothing issue. I don't understand cross dressers or those that are transgendered. If you would like to try then I am willing to listen.

Now, before you go tearing me apart about XX and XY chromosome stuff I will have to admit that like all the above I have no answers. Was my brain washed in female hormones before birth? I do not know ( and neither do you who disagree). Is this result of conditioning after birth? I do not know (and neither do you who disagree). But I do know several things:
I know that I am a woman.
I know that as I come down toward the end of my life (I am in my 60's) that because of what I had to go through as a child that I never reached my full potential as a woman and as a Christian, and as a human being. I know that I will have to stand before God and give an accounting of my life, and my failures, and sin (see Psalm 51:2-4 as to why I said sin instead of sins).

You know it is kind of funny that this thread started at a time that I was considering leaving crosswalk because I kind of came to the conclusion that I would never be accepted by either the men or women of crosswalk as a woman and that I would only be allowed into threads such as this. To be honest, I have been convinced that in the eyes of Christianity and society that I am some sort of an abomination. I guess when you have been beaten over and over again you start to believe it. I cannot explain why I am a woman, I just am. I will probably give it another month or so before I leave to see where the replies go.

Thank you for listening,
Carolyn



leah777 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/3/2006 1:46:10 PM)

Carolyn,

Thank you for posting, and welcome to CW.

I don't know what to say other thank I'm sorry you've had to endure so much, from your parents and then the world.

I don't understand how or why these kinds of things happen, yet I'm quite sure they do. Birth defects happen. And a birth defect such as this is no more a sin than any other birth defect. Birth defects and disease (mental, physical, emotional) in general, are all a result of sin in the world, for sure; but a person having a disease or birth defect is certainly not a sin. I am looking forward to eternal life with God in which none of these will have a part, but for now they are a fact we have to live with.

It seems you haven't been given a choice in the matter, even though I myself have stated that it is a choice. I believe for the most part, it really is. I also believe there are some circumstances in which there simply is no choice.

It sounds as though you've made your peace with God, and I pray you are ready to meet Him. I certainly cannot and will not stand in judgement of you.



revmitchell -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/3/2006 1:47:10 PM)

I find it interesting that thosw whio want to justify perversion and sin always pull out of their hat some rare and extreme example to make it alright to apply it to everyone. Men should be men look like men act like men and dress like men. Women should be women look like women act like women and dress like women. There should always be a difference between the two and anything else is a perversion of Gods intent. Justify it if you want but it is digusting. With the exception of those who refuseto believe that the bible is literal so that they can twist scripture as they want scriture is very clear on this issue.



N-E-W-S -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/3/2006 2:06:16 PM)

I am a secret crossdresser and have had these desires since a very young age. I do think it is wrong but I really do not know how to overcome it.



car2462 -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/3/2006 2:30:25 PM)

quote:

I find it interesting that thosw whio want to justify perversion and sin always pull out of their hat some rare and extreme example to make it alright to apply it to everyone. Men should be men look like men act like men and dress like men. Women should be women look like women act like women and dress like women. There should always be a difference between the two and anything else is a perversion of Gods intent. Justify it if you want but it is digusting. With the exception of those who refuseto believe that the bible is literal so that they can twist scripture as they want scriture is very clear on this issue.


Pastor.

(I assume you are a Pastor because of your login name)

I see the anger that is inside of you about people like me and it is something I have had to live with. From your hastily written reply I wish to assure you that I have not lied about what I have written as you seem to imply
quote:

always pull out of their hat some rare and extreme example to make it alright
and further you should be aware that I do believe the bible is literal and so I ask you to show me those places where what has happend to me is impossible.

Carolyn



RaeLouiseWall -> RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread (12/3/2006 2:47:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: revmitchell
I find it interesting that thosw whio want to justify perversion and sin always pull out of their hat some rare and extreme example to make it alright to apply it to everyone.


If you are referring to Carolyn’s 2 part posting, it is not that rare nor extreme for the transsexual’s experience. If you are not referring to that posting, I am not sure what you are referring to.

quote:


There should always be a difference between the two and anything else is a perversion of Gods intent.


Please prove this to me from the Scripture Rev. Mitchell and for the sake of the discussion, please do not quote Deuteronomy 22:5 as it has been discussed here already (please read post#10 and post #32) and in my personal opinion is not relative to the discussion at hand.

quote:


Justify it if you want but it is digusting. With the exception of those who refuseto believe that the bible is literal so that they can twist scripture as they want scriture is very clear on this issue.


May I please ask what this means?
quote:

With the exception of those who refuseto believe that the bible is literal so that they can twist scripture


If I read this correctly, then it means each word in the Bible we are reading is exactly what the original words were intended to say and mean.

Of course the Bible is not wrong, and I agree 100% with that.

I do know that laws and lifestyles (in particular those in the Old Testament Pentateuch) were often directed to Moses and the people who had to live by the law, rather than be saved by grace. Any Bible written in any language other than the original spoken language of those God inspired men is interpreted (translated) and transliterated.

Let’s also keep in mind linguistic drift of language. Some words that mean one thing 50 years ago mean something different now.

With all that in mind it is hard to take the Bible, transliterated from the original language and without any interpretation of what those wonderfully powerful verses mean treat all of them at face value. As a minister (guessing that as your user name is Revmitchell) you interpret this book every Sunday in your sermons rather than simply read scripture for 30 minutes and say a prayer. You read verses and minister to your congregation on what it means (according to your study on the matter). This is interpretation and not a literal presentation of the Bible.

So far in this thread there has been no twisting of any scripture that I have seen to make a verse, or verses mean something different than that which was written. Going back to the Deuteronomy 22:5 discussion in post #10) it would appear that the author of that post had done some significant research into the original intent of the verse and how it applied to the people of the era in which it was directed.

So Rev. Mitchell, I ask you what I have asked others here: show me sound Biblical proof that the act of crossdressing (as defined in this post) is inherently sinful.



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