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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/5/2006 1:31:59 AM
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jawsmetroid
Posts: 215
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From: Shorts all year, MN
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I was referring to those who desire it not due to a genetic disorder. Those whom you all would say 'choose' it. Chosen to accept it is probably the more proper term. If we were to focus on those with gender disorders, we would not be able to answer the original question, which I believe was is it a sin, and is it 'healable' or 'curable'. Perhaps we need to focus on it from that light, rather than beating around the bush as to whether some have genetic issues or not. That is a rather pointless discussion.
_____________________________
I say what I mean and mean what I say. I'm not implying something unless it's obvious. When in doubt, ask, don't assume.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/5/2006 1:56:41 AM
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solo_soprano22
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From: I'm a Southern girl
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But I do believe that that matters. There are many transgenders/crossdressers who are one gender internally, and one externally, but what are they to do in order to be right? I (personally) do believe that a majority of people that are that way to do have genetic problems, but my point is, it's relevant, because it causes problems with their being accepted by Christians oftentimes. If a woman is born female internally but male externally, then if they dress like a man, the church won't accept that because they believe the person is doing wrong (because they think the person is a woman from their features). If she dresses like a man, then is that right? It's a real issue today, but it seems like no on really knows how to address it. I just don't understand why some people are condemned by the church for something they had no control over.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/5/2006 6:38:21 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 4104
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quote:
ORIGINAL: uschaplain
You will find the same Hebrew root, KLB, is used for dog and Caleb, but the spelling is not. Keleb is used for dog, versus Kaleb, the person.
Ummm.... there were NO VOWELS in Hebrew before the Masorites added them in the middle ages.......
In reality, there still aren't. The vowel points are like training wheels on a bike, to be used only until you learn the vocabulary.
No kosher Torah scroll uses vowel points, some Hebrew only prayer books use no vowel points, and many Hebrew language newspapers use no vowel points.
The spelling is exactly the same, and the name means "dog."
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/5/2006 8:47:06 AM
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RaeLouiseWall
Posts: 46
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jawsmetroid
To throw some more ingredients into the pot....
Could it be that the transgender doesn't identify with their own gender and can identify and thus 'cure' transgenderism (not to say that it isn't in some cases genetic for some reason, not directly just predispositioned). In the case previously stated, that was a horrible mistake resulting in what seemed to be transgenderism- from what I read, the person was wired to be a guy, but surgery affected the physical appearance. That is my guess.
Identifying with one's gender happens in much the same way as 'curing' or 'changing' homosexuality. See "Loving a Homosexual as Jesus Would" (Book by Chad Thompson) for more information about gender identity, or Family.org.
There are some trasngendered who truly feel as though the outer body does not match the inner gender. These folks are called transsexuals and are a minority of the transgendered community. The majority of the people in the transgendered community are those who identify with his/her birth gender, but for various reasons find the act of crossdressing to be a compelling need in their life. They may, while crossdressed, act like the gender the clothes represent, but the know they are genetically male, or female. Of course there is everything in between as well.
Most crossdressers have no problem at all being their birth gender (i.e. loving the body they were born with). Also the crossdresser has issues similar in some way, but radically different in others than the homosexual, so the method of outreach and help for both groups is different.
The story referred to earlier about the child who had surgery is somewhat misrepresented. It was actually one of a set of twin toddler boys. Due to a medical concern the family doctor recommended circumcision and during the procedure (the doctor used a rather odd method, I can’t recall) one of the boys genitalia was virtually destroyed.
The choice to raise his as a girl was made by a doctor along with a psychologist, who found this to be an experiment in proving that gender is not determined at birth, but is largely created by environmental stimulus. In his (the doctor’s eyes) this was a wonderful test bed.
As pointed out in an earlier post, this did not work, which makes sense as gender identity is not taught via just external influence but is genetically encoded in one’s body. Teaching a boy to act feminine is simply teaching a boy to act feminine. It does not shape his gender identity.
You can find the original PBS video here:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/gender/
_____________________________
All the best,
Rae Louise Wall
@>'-,'-'--,--
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/5/2006 9:15:45 AM
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uschaplain
Posts: 60
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quote:
NO VOWELS in Hebrew before the Masorites added them in the middle ages
True. Caleb was a good man, a great leader, and a man of extraordinary faith. Please, don't confuse the man with the animal.
If Kaleb means Keleb, dog, than it also has the meanings of male prostitute and pederast. Do you really want to insist that Caleb means "dog," and thus "dog" has a good conotation in Scripture?
This is way off the topic of transgenderism and crossdressing. Let's get back to the topic.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/5/2006 9:30:08 AM
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uschaplain
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quote:
God created them male and femalequote:
First, God created Adam from the earth and breathed into him the breath of life. God told him to tend the garden and to name the animals and to subdue the earth. In naming the animals Adam discovered he had no being as a helpmate just right for him. Thus God caused a creat sleep to fall upon Adam and from his side created the individual, whom Adam named Eve, who was the mother of all living people.
Was Adam both male and female when God created him first? I don't know. I'm just speculating. Did God remove the female parts from Adam to create Eve? I don't know. I'm just wondering. Why is it that men have nipples, when there is no biological use for them (even though some male babies express milk from their nipples when born--commonly called "witch's milk")? I don't know. I'm just asking questions to gain further insight. Maybe there are no answers to these questions this side of heaven.
On more solid ground, when God created in Adam and Eve, God created them good. Then sin entered into the world due to Adam and Eve's transgression. Now we live in a fallen world, where biological sex is no longer easy to discern with Turner's syndrome, Klinefelter's syndrome, chimera, other genetic variants, intersexed individuals, and ambiguous sex individuals, hormonal washes of the brain, etc.
Who sinned, the individual or the parents? Neither. We live in a fallen world.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/5/2006 5:53:32 PM
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N-E-W-S
Posts: 25
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quote:
ORIGINAL: uschaplain
quote:
I am a secret crossdresser and have had these desires since a very young age. I do think it is wrong but I really do not know how to overcome it.
Dear N.E.W.S,
In order for me to better understand you, why do you think it is wrong? Is it spiritually wrong, morally wrong, legally wrong, socially wrong, emotionally/mentally/psychologically wrong, or other?
Are clothes sinful? God clothed Adam and Eve after they sinned, so clothing can't be sinful.
Why do you want to overcome it?
I believe that it is Spiritually wrong, because God created me a male and He intends that I be one. I know this because I know it in my heart.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/6/2006 12:58:00 AM
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jawsmetroid
Posts: 215
Joined: 4/18/2005
From: Shorts all year, MN
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quote:
ORIGINAL: RaeLouiseWall
quote:
ORIGINAL: jawsmetroid
To throw some more ingredients into the pot....
Could it be that the transgender doesn't identify with their own gender and can identify and thus 'cure' transgenderism (not to say that it isn't in some cases genetic for some reason, not directly just predispositioned). In the case previously stated, that was a horrible mistake resulting in what seemed to be transgenderism- from what I read, the person was wired to be a guy, but surgery affected the physical appearance. That is my guess.
Identifying with one's gender happens in much the same way as 'curing' or 'changing' homosexuality. See "Loving a Homosexual as Jesus Would" (Book by Chad Thompson) for more information about gender identity, or Family.org.
There are some trasngendered who truly feel as though the outer body does not match the inner gender. These folks are called transsexuals and are a minority of the transgendered community. The majority of the people in the transgendered community are those who identify with his/her birth gender, but for various reasons find the act of crossdressing to be a compelling need in their life. They may, while crossdressed, act like the gender the clothes represent, but the know they are genetically male, or female. Of course there is everything in between as well.
Most crossdressers have no problem at all being their birth gender (i.e. loving the body they were born with). Also the crossdresser has issues similar in some way, but radically different in others than the homosexual, so the method of outreach and help for both groups is different.
The story referred to earlier about the child who had surgery is somewhat misrepresented. It was actually one of a set of twin toddler boys. Due to a medical concern the family doctor recommended circumcision and during the procedure (the doctor used a rather odd method, I can’t recall) one of the boys genitalia was virtually destroyed.
The choice to raise his as a girl was made by a doctor along with a psychologist, who found this to be an experiment in proving that gender is not determined at birth, but is largely created by environmental stimulus. In his (the doctor’s eyes) this was a wonderful test bed.
As pointed out in an earlier post, this did not work, which makes sense as gender identity is not taught via just external influence but is genetically encoded in one’s body. Teaching a boy to act feminine is simply teaching a boy to act feminine. It does not shape his gender identity.
You can find the original PBS video here:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/gender/
Brainwashing a boy into thinking he is a girl will give him doubts as to whether or not he is a boy, causing gender identity issues. Gays are not born thinking they are attracted to the same sex, and transgenders are the same way. I am not bashing people, I am trying to make the point that it is wrong to covet, which is certainly applying to transgender issues. They are coveting attributes or the likeness of what they are not. I am not trying to downplay genetics, I am saying that is a separate issue to the question that was asked. The question was whether or not it is a sin to be a guy and act like or want to be a girl and if so can it be healed, not whether or not it is a choice. If it is a sin, it is a choice, if it is not, it is not. Same as homosexuality, there is a fine line and we should not cross it. There is a fine line between being attracted to the idea that one should be a member of the opposite sex, but to desire this to a point of obsession is a sin. Perhaps I wasn't being clear on my stance.
_____________________________
I say what I mean and mean what I say. I'm not implying something unless it's obvious. When in doubt, ask, don't assume.
Somebody shut me up so I can live out loud!- Toby Mac
Chat about the deep things in life...
www.jawsmetroid.blogspot.com
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/6/2006 8:15:15 AM
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uschaplain
Posts: 60
Joined: 11/28/2006
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quote:
Brainwashing a boy into thinking he is a girl will give him doubts as to whether or not he is a boy, causing gender identity issues.
I agree with you. This process of forced sissification or feminization is wrong and sinful. It is a form of bullying. It seeks to make and keep the young person submissive and compliant and the one doing the bullying, dominant. The process may also lead to humiliation, fear, punishment and pain.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/6/2006 8:28:52 AM
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uschaplain
Posts: 60
Joined: 11/28/2006
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quote:
Gays are not born thinking they are attracted to the same sex, and transgenders are the same way.
I would also add that heterosexual children are not born thinking they are attracted to the opposite sex, and transgenders are the same way.
I would agree with the statement about gays. Most children before the age of puberty (11-13), regardless of sexual attraction or gender feelings, are not thinking about sex nor do they experience sexual attraction. It is more like, "I like him or her. She or he are my friend." Sexual attraction and sex are not a part of their life unless they have been inappropriately sexualized early in life.
I'm not sure what you mean by your statement, "and transgenders are the same way." Are you saying transgenders are attracted to the same sex? Most studies I've seen indicate the percentage of of homosexuals among the crossdresser population are about the same as in the rest of society.
The use of the term, transgender, has had so many definitions, I wouldn't dare guess as to what you mean by the term.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/6/2006 8:31:05 AM
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uschaplain
Posts: 60
Joined: 11/28/2006
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quote:
I am trying to make the point that it is wrong to covet
Yes, covetousness is a sin. It is part of the tenth commandment. Covetousness is a sin regarless of a person's sexual orientation or gender feelings.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/6/2006 8:48:27 AM
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uschaplain
Posts: 60
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quote:
They are coveting attributes or the likeness of what they are not.
Is it wrong for a boy to want to emulate his hero? Is it wrong for a boy to aspire to be a soldier, police officer, fireman, astronaut, etc.? Is it wrong to develop and perfect the girts God has given you?
Are emulation, aspiration, and "development" forms of covetousness?
I'm not sure how you can lump all transgendered people as being guilty of the sin of covetousness.
What about the boy, who wants to be, or chooses to be, a secretary, a teacher, a nurse, a flight attendant, a restaurant server, clean houses, a cook, a ballet dancer, or a flutist, that is roles that are often filled by women? Is he less than a man because he is employed, provides for his family, and pays his taxes doing any of these jobs?
Is a girl, who wants to be, or chooses to be, an executive, a professor, a doctor, a pilot, a restauranteer, a contractor, a chef, a choreographer, or a trumpet player less of a woman because she does these things?
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/6/2006 8:48:49 AM
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RaeLouiseWall
Posts: 46
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quote:
Brainwashing a boy into thinking he is a girl will give him doubts as to whether or not he is a boy, causing gender identity issues. Gays are not born thinking they are attracted to the same sex, and transgenders are the same way.
I agree with the first part of this statement. Taking a child and attempting to raise him or her as the opposite gender is going to cause psychological issues at best. In the case of the story, the young man eventually got married; however eventually committed suicide.
The second part I totally disagree with. This has been the main sticking point of this discussion from the start. There seems to be 2 basic trains of thought here. One thought is the typical transgendered person is born with the genetic disposition to be compelled to present (at times) a persona that is opposite of his/her birth gender. This is most often seen via crossdressing. The other train of thought is the transgendered person is this way by choice or environmental stimuli and therefore the acting out can be prevented or controlled and should be as it is not normal.
Psychologists and sociologists have spent many years trying to determine the root cause of both types of people with out any definitive answer.
I am sure there are crosdressers and homosexual individuals who were not “born that way”, who for what ever reason consider themselves as such. These folks can be “treated” by conventional methods of therapy for such individuals and they should be as there is some environmental/external reason for the acting out.
quote:
I am not bashing people, I am trying to make the point that it is wrong to covet, which is certainly applying to transgender issues. They are coveting attributes or the likeness of what they are not.
this is a very interesting point and how it pertains to transgenderism, I would think that perhaps this applies to those who are not potentially genetically disposed to such a thing (see previous thoughts) rather than those who have felt compelled from early childhood.
quote:
I am not trying to downplay genetics, I am saying that is a separate issue to the question that was asked. The question was whether or not it is a sin to be a guy and act like or want to be a girl and if so can it be healed, not whether or not it is a choice. If it is a sin, it is a choice, if it is not, it is not.
Same as homosexuality, there is a fine line and we should not cross it. There is a fine line between being attracted to the idea that one should be a member of the opposite sex, but to desire this to a point of obsession is a sin. Perhaps I wasn't being clear on my stance.
I agree with this. For those who make a choice to do this (or have a learned behavior) in this area it is something that can be unlearned, and therefore they can be delivered from the issue that is causing the behavior.
_____________________________
All the best,
Rae Louise Wall
@>'-,'-'--,--
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/6/2006 9:05:14 AM
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uschaplain
Posts: 60
Joined: 11/28/2006
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quote:
The question was whether or not it is a sin to be a guy and act like or want to be a girl and if so can it be healed, not whether or not it is a choice.
I would say the question is, "Is crossdressing, in an of itself, a sin?"
Is it a sin for a guy to act like a girl? Do you think female impersonators are sinning? Is it a sin for a man to cry and show, to be sensitive and caring, to be thoughtful, compassionate, and romantic, to enjoy cuddling and nurturing? If not, then what do you mean when you say, "act like a girl"?
Is it a sin for a guy to want to be a girl? Most crossdressers know they are men and do not want to have plastic surgery to look like women. A transsexual may or may not seek plastic surgery to look like a woman. A transsexual may be be like those, whom Jesus said, made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/6/2006 9:06:45 AM
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uschaplain
Posts: 60
Joined: 11/28/2006
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quote:
to cry and show
Oops, I meant to say, "to cry and show emotion."
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/6/2006 9:23:42 AM
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uschaplain
Posts: 60
Joined: 11/28/2006
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quote:
I believe that it is Spiritually wrong, because God created me a male and He intends that I be one. I know this because I know it in my heart.
Most crossdressers know God created them male and they intend to be male. They do not want to be women by having plastic surgery. They just don't want to be the insensitive, uncaring, unnurturing, career driven, alpha males, jerks and slobs that men can be to those around them. For whatever reason, male crossdressers like and enjoy wearing female clothing, make-up, and accessories.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/6/2006 11:45:56 AM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 962
Joined: 8/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: uschaplain
quote:
There is no proof at all that it isn't a mental/emotional disorder.
If there is no proof at all that crossdressing isn't a mental/emotional disorder, then I would appreciate seeing your proof that it is a mental/emotional disorder.
My next comment is simply an illustration and not a comparison. It wasn't too long ago that doctors believed that asthma attacks were a psychological disorder; whereas now asthma is known to have a physical cause(s).
Let's see... no proof of genetic predispostion, no proof of physiological cause, what does that leave? With your illustration you show two things:
1) that things we believe to be true may not be
2) that if this did turn out to be something caused by genetic or physiological defect then, like asthma, it is not normal and should be cured.
quote:
If you admit to a genetic defect in chromosomes for Turner's syndrome, Klinefelter's, chimera, intersexed conditions, and ambiguous sex conditions, etc., then how are you so confidently able to assert that crossdressing isn't rooted in having another physiological cause such as a defective interutero hormonal wash of the brain, or other factors.
Because there is no proof of it. You are comparing one group of things that have a specific genetic cause and the correlating physical symptoms with something that has no known genetic cause and has no physical symptom - unless you can redefine behavior as a physical symptom.
quote:
I am not sure to whom you are referring. From my perspective, I have no intention to veer people away from their belief in God, nor do I seek to allow anything to become possible. I believe in the inerrent and infallible Word of God, verbal and plenary inspiration, and Divine revelation and illumination just like every other true orthodox believer. I believe truth needs to be exalted and falsehood needs to be exposed as being false. I do not ridicule the Bible.
This was not meant towards you, personally, as if this is your intent. Although, I believe you have bought into the system to a degree.
quote:
If I am not mistaken, you are the one claiming crossdressing is a mental/emotional disorder. Where is your proof? Not all crossdressers are fetish crossdressers nor are they all non-heterosexual.
This statement proves my above point. My "proof" is that until there is something to show what, until now, there has been no proof showing otherwise, you can't proceed as if you know something as fact when you do not. A fact is a fact until it is disproven, not by opinion, but by hard, objective proof.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LordBeWithMeAlways
quote:
1) They are very smart because it sounds complicated and scientific
So if issues have complicated causes and factors, we should just ignore the complexity?
You missed the point. Go back and read it again.
quote:
ORIGINAL: RaeLouiseWall
I do not think that anyone in this thread, from the crossdressers to the ministers and all those in between have claimed that crossdressing is “normal”. What has been stressed is that the act of crossdressing is not inherently sinful or an act of rebellion towards God.
In spite of scripture to the contrary. I gave it, you do not like where it leads, so you ignore it or try to think it away.
quote:
No one on this thread has publicly attacked you at all from what I have read.
I didn't say they did. What I did say is that they might not like what I have to say.
quote:
It is a matter of your believe versus others and this sort of debate can go round-robin for ever. For what it’s worth, most of the crossdressers that I have dealt with have all had a similar story and therefore “normal” within the guidelines of the crossdressing community. I know this does not square with your thinking, but it is a thought worth at least think about just as those who read your thoughts think about them (at least I do).
Realtive morality has no place in Christianity. God is not relative. Morality is not relative.
quote:
Why does the act of crossdressing “cause confusion and bringing reproach upon God”? I am lost here as to your reasoning besides the obvious fact that you are deeply bothered by the whole concept that a normal, non mentally unstable person would have the desire to dress and appear to be the opposite of his/her birth gender. The same argument can be put forth towards anything we don’t understand. If it causes confusion to someone, it must be bad. (This explains why my daughter calls math evil I guess.)
I have quoted the scripture. The princlple here is not proscriptive commandment from a specific act (which is an outside force controlling an outside behavior), but an inward state that translates to refraining from things that would hinder love between brothers and sisters and impede the gospel.
quote:
This is true; however in the transgender community, when people speak of one whose birth gender is male, he is a “genetic male” and female, a “genetic female”. It makes sense in a community where all the “guys” are calling each other with female names, pronouns and such. For those outside this culture the terminology is a bit odd for sure.
There is no such thing as being "transgendered." You are (with my aforementioned exceptions applied) either a man or a woman. You may be a man or a woman with mental problems, but a man or woman. These people have problems and need to be made well, not celebrated for their illness. Perhaps we should strive to celebrate the diversity within the anorexic community, as well.
quote:
What you are doing is exactly the same thing from your point of view. You have a feeing that this is wrong, and you have what you strongly believe to be sound Biblical support. You expound these things trying to get those who are not uncomfortable with the notion of crossdressing or transgenderism to veer from that path to yours. What’s the difference?
Fact and sound, correctly applied scripture. Feelings have nothing to do with it.
quote:
Who is ridiculing anyone here?
Again, you missed the point.
There's really no need for me to continue on with this. I have neither the time nor the inclination to have to go back and clarify my position because people choose not to read and think before they post. It would help greatly if things were read with the intent to really come a conclusion brought about by reason rather than by how best to distort or disprove an idea. Now, for clarification:
-------I'm not saying I'm being attacked-------
I am saying that, so far, this thread is more about furthering an agenda than coming to any real conclusion on the issue, theologically or otherwise.
_____________________________
Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/6/2006 12:31:49 PM
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uschaplain
Posts: 60
Joined: 11/28/2006
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[quote from Bro_Shane, 61]Either they are mentally/emotionally unstable in some way or they do it because they know people do not like it (or for those who do like it). There is nothing that shows/proves that it is anything else. [/quote]
I went through the previous posts and discovered that you were the first to assert that crossdressers and transgendered individuals are mentally and emotionally unstable or rebellious. Again, I ask for your proof.
It is far easier to prove the existance of something than the non-existance of something. You are claiming crossdressing and transgenderism as a mental/emotional condition. Where is your proof? Unless you can, your views are your own personal views.
Calling crossdressers and trangendered individuals mentally/emotionally unstable are simply ad hominem attacks. If you don't like them or what they are doing , just say they are mentally and emotionally unstable.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/6/2006 1:48:45 PM
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ariannaleigh
Posts: 4
Joined: 11/25/2006
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I've been off the last few days, so I missed a big portion of the conversation, but in reading through the posts, it seems that those who believe transgenderism to be a sin have argued thus:
It's vanity. (They just want to be vain and "look pretty"). Then the argument seemed to say that the sin was in fact lust. Now, I've read someone call it covetousness. It seems to me that when one argument against it gets shot down, someone tries to find another sin to put it under.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
There is no such thing as being "transgendered." You are (with my aforementioned exceptions applied) either a man or a woman. You may be a man or a woman with mental problems, but a man or woman.
I think if you ask anyone who's transgendered, they will also tell you they are either a man or a woman.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
These people have problems and need to be made well, not celebrated for their illness.
Perhaps we should strive to celebrate the diversity within the anorexic community, as well.
If that's the case - if people who are transgendered are ill - then they can't be sinning, any more than a schizophrenic is sinning. In anticipation of the argument that they somehow "opened a door to the devil" to cause their "illness" - that's like saying if I go out in the snow and get a cold, I sinned by "opening the door to the cold virus."
In fact, if it's a mental illness, then what's all this talk about theology? Where in the Bible does it say it is sin to be mentally ill? If it's a sin, then why the talk about mental illness?
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ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
I am saying that, so far, this thread is more about furthering an agenda than coming to any real conclusion on the issue, theologically or otherwise.
I do take this as a personal attack, since this thread was started in large part to a post I made about 2 weeks ago. I have always maintained in this that I am seeking for God's truth. I may not post every day, but I read the posts, and reply when I have something meaningful to say. I really don't see any agenda being put forth in this thread other than trying to be more understanding with people who, undisputedly, have feelings that "normal" people don't understand.
With apologies to the moderators, I'd like to cross-post what I had originally written 2 weeks ago (to bring light on things):
I never before thought I'd be struggling with all of this, but here goes:
I am a 25-year-old guy, and I am going through massive struggles with both my faith and my gender identity. First off, I want to say that I am not saying that I'm gay. I still am very much attracted to females. It's just that, for me, more and more, I feel like I should be a girl. (But then, wouldn't that make me a lesbian?)
I was raised in a Christian home, and grew up as a Christian, and it had never even occurred to me that maybe I don't really believe all this. Right now, the only thing keeping me from accepting/declaring myself as transgender is my faith, and that's really not holding on anymore. I feel like my church is falling apart, my mom lost her job, and I don't know how much longer I can hold on to God.
This isn't really a sudden thing that I'm going through, but part of a life history of identifying with girls more than guys. When I was about 7, I prayed every day for God to make me a girl. My parents were divorced when I was little, and even before that, my dad was never around much. My brother and sister were a lot older than me too, and there weren't any kids my age in our neighborhood, so my whole social interaction was my mom, people at church, and people at school. In church, all my best friends were girls, and at school, in recess, I'd rather play house with the girls than anything with the boys. I have always identified better with girls. When we'd do a guys vs. girls game, I'd always want to be on the girls team. More and more, I'm starting to think that I don't really fit in with guys.
My heart is really heavy with this, and there isn't a lot of Christian information about transgender issues. I found a wealth of information about what the world says, but only very little, or unhelpful information from Christian resources. (The first place I actually checked is Focus on the Family, because I respect them, but their articles on "gender identity" discuss homosexuality, but not transgenderism.)
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/6/2006 1:50:37 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 962
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: uschaplain
[quote from Bro_Shane, 61]Either they are mentally/emotionally unstable in some way or they do it because they know people do not like it (or for those who do like it). There is nothing that shows/proves that it is anything else.
I went through the previous posts and discovered that you were the first to assert that crossdressers and transgendered individuals are mentally and emotionally unstable or rebellious. Again, I ask for your proof.
1. There has been nothing to show that it is otherwise
2. The APA still includes it as such in the DSM (although it will, as it did with homosexuality, remove it under pressure)
3. There has been nothing found that shows it is rooted in physical causes
4. Remove what we can know for sure and that leaves only two possible alternatives:
a) it has to be mental/emotional
b) it is done by compulsion (either attributed to mental emotional disorders or lost/rebellious attitude twoards God- or both)
There are plenty of disorders that do not have a physical pathology. PTSD is one. It is not a rarity. Now, I ask you - as a scientist and a professional, why would anyone move forward on treating something in a way that is not indicated? You have a condition which causes behavior and has nothing to show it stems from anything other than the mind.
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Calling crossdressers and trangendered individuals mentally/emotionally unstable are simply ad hominem attacks.
Since when did the truth become an ad hominem? I remind you that you have said, shown, and given nothing to show otherwise. This is nothing more than an attempt to turn the subject on a rhetorical term rather than see it for what it is. Perhaps you should revisit the definition of ad hominem.
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If you don't like them or what they are doing , just say they are mentally and emotionally unstable.
You see, here is the attitude that astounds me from "thinking" people. You assume that I do not like crossdressers and that I do not like what they do. Rather, I do not approve of the behavior. Why? As I have stated before - and each time it is ignored - on grounds that it is selfish and hinders the exhortation of brothers and sisters and the spreading of the gospel. The difference may be subtle, yet it is profound. To not approve of something does not mean I harbor any disdain for the people - in fact, I have advocated love and respect for them as I would for anyone. To not approve does not mean I want them to suffer - in fact, I would very much like to see them born again and in a state to where they can be healthy and comfortable in their own skin.
You attempt to change my argument into one that is acceptable to attck because it is simple minded and ignorant. Again, the last statement by you proves there is nothing more than furthering agendas here. If it weren't, I would not have to spend 80% of my time trying to pint out how my arguments have been twisted and misrepresented.
It amazes me the assumptions here that, because I choose to disagree, I must have some resentment or hatred towards people that I do, indeed, love just as much as anyone else.
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Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/6/2006 2:02:56 PM
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Bro_Shane
Posts: 962
Joined: 8/4/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ariannaleigh
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bro_Shane
There is no such thing as being "transgendered." You are (with my aforementioned exceptions applied) either a man or a woman. You may be a man or a woman with mental problems, but a man or woman.
I think if you ask anyone who's transgendered, they will also tell you they are either a man or a woman.
Yes, but they will continue, "trapped in the wrong body."
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If that's the case - if people who are transgendered are ill - then they can't be sinning, any more than a schizophrenic is sinning. In anticipation of the argument that they somehow "opened a door to the devil" to cause their "illness" - that's like saying if I go out in the snow and get a cold, I sinned by "opening the door to the cold virus."
I have made this point. I'm gald you agree.
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In fact, if it's a mental illness, then what's all this talk about theology? Where in the Bible does it say it is sin to be mentally ill? If it's a sin, then why the talk about mental illness?
As I have stated before, those who are mentally ill should not have the stigma of willing sin attached to their action since, most likely, they can not control it. If there is no mental illness, then the only problem that needs to be considered is the theological one.
I have never said being mentally ill is a sin. To do so would be silly, just as saying having cancer is sinful.
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I do take this as a personal attack, since this thread was started in large part to a post I made about 2 weeks ago. I have always maintained in this that I am seeking for God's truth. I may not post every day, but I read the posts, and reply when I have something meaningful to say. I really don't see any agenda being put forth in this thread other than trying to be more understanding with people who, undisputedly, have feelings that "normal" people don't understand.
I promise you, this was not meant as a personal attack towards you. What has happened here is that the popular notions of the problem have been challenged and, as often happens when an ox has been gored, people retreat to entrenched positions and nothing real is accomplished. I have no problem with debate, even with those who disagree with me. I do have a problem with those who refuse to give the same amount of consideration to my argument as I give to their's, although this does not apply to you personally.
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My heart is really heavy with this, and there isn't a lot of Christian information about transgender issues. I found a wealth of information about what the world says, but only very little, or unhelpful information from Christian resources. (The first place I actually checked is Focus on the Family, because I respect them, but their articles on "gender identity" discuss homosexuality, but not transgenderism.)
Your heart must be quite heavy. I pray for you and that you will find resolution and peace in your search for truth here. I also admire that you knew that what the world presents would be at odds with Christian thought on the issue. If you go back and read my posts again, I think you will find that you and I agree much more than we disagree.
Again, you are in my prayers and I pray that you will be able to find the peace and happiness that God intends for you.
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Prayer is not where we change God's mind, it is where He changes ours.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/6/2006 2:17:38 PM
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uschaplain
Posts: 60
Joined: 11/28/2006
Status: offline
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The APA still includes it as such in the DSM
I see two possible areas in the DSM IV-TR that could possibly relate to this thread being the section under Transvestism and the other on Gender Identity Disorder. Not having the text in front of me, I am going by memory. Transvestism is related to fetish behavior. Gender Identity Disorder relates to a person's uneasiness about his or her biological sex.
All crossdressers are not fetish transvestites.
Ask a transgendered person if they are male or female and they will tell you. Most do not have a gender identity disorder.
Some people feel that crossdressing is an addiction, or a compulsion, or other because they feel crossdressing wrong. I guess it is possible crossdressing could be an addiction or a compulsion, but that is the exception rather than the rule, and it is indicated by certain specific behaviors.
I would conclude then, based on the DSM IV-TR, that you are using these two categories, transvestism and GID, to say all other crossdressers must be mental/emotionally unstable as well, but I'm not sure.
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RE: Transgenderism/Crossdressing One Stop thread - 12/6/2006 4:58:06 PM
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RaeLouiseWall
Posts: 46
Joined: 6/7/2006
Status: offline
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In spite of scripture to the contrary. I gave it, you do not like where it leads, so you ignore it or try to think it away.
In reading your scripture reference as they pertain to the topic I never did see an obvious connection. As I had stated each time I read them and pondered the verses in question. I do not see how most of them pertained to this specific situation. They were not ignored, nor were they taken at “face value.” Scripture is seldom taken at “face value” but rather it is read and the meaning is then interpreted by the reader whenever appropriate. What may have a meaning for one person has a totally different meaning for another.
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No one on this thread has publicly attacked you at all from what I have read.
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I didn't say they did. What I did say is that they might not like what I have to say.
the term ridicule was used by you
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3) Thus holding any idea that comes from a Judoe-Christian background to be subject to ridicule when placed against the rigor of "scientific method"
My understanding of this word comes from http://home.cfl.rr.com/eghsap/apterms.html
“Words intended to belittle a person or idea and arouse contemptuous laughter. The goal is to condemn or criticize by making the thing, idea, or person seem laughable and ridiculous. It is one of the most powerful methods of criticism, partly because it cannot be satisfactorily answered ("Who can refute a sneer?") and partly because many people who fear nothing else--not the law, not society, not even God--fear being laughed at “
Nobody here on this thread with an opposing view to yours has ridiculed or attempted to ridicule anyone, nor has anyone that I have read treated those that view with contempt.
When I used the phrase attacked I was referring to anyone ridiculing. Perhaps my choice of words was incorrect.
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Realtive morality has no place in Christianity. God is not relative. Morality is not relative.
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