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[Deleted] - 3/15/2007 10:18:18 PM
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RE: Creflo Dollar - 3/15/2007 10:52:30 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3180
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From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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I looked up all the Scriptures myself as should you.
The Bible says: "15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth." II Timothy 2
Check out the verses he gave and decide for yourself if Dollar applied them correctly.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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[Deleted] - 3/15/2007 10:55:43 PM
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RE: Creflo Dollar - 3/15/2007 10:59:31 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1171
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quote:
zildjian: How is that denying the real Jesus Christ and teaching a false Christ?
A 'jesus' who came as a man, not as God, and grew into perfection is not the Jesus Christ of the Holy Bible. The Bible states that anyone who denies Jesus Christ coming in the flesh is an anti-Christ. It's not Biblically up for debate, but if you choose to support or follow such a god, that's certainly your option.
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RE: Creflo Dollar - 3/15/2007 11:49:26 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3180
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zildjian
Well I guess that settles it - that's the same scripture that comes to mind.
Yep, he applied them correctly.
Thanks Kat!
Then you don't know the Bible very well. You need to spend some more time studying.
You must be a drummer!
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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[Deleted] - 3/15/2007 11:56:46 PM
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RE: Creflo Dollar - 3/16/2007 1:13:57 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1875
Joined: 2/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: spectre16
this is one of his teachings on wealth what do you think
Dr. Creflo A. Dollar
2/21/07 • 7:00 P.M.
Scripture References
3 John 2
James 2:17
Joshua 1:8
Proverbs 6:8
Proverbs 13:11
Luke 14:28
Summary
There are practical laws that govern prosperity. In order to experience the financial prosperity that God has destined for your life, you must learn both the spiritual and natural aspects of acquiring wealth.
Prosperity begins in your soul (3 John 2).
Prosperity is not what you have, but who you are.
When your soul is prosperous, financial wealth will be drawn to you.
You prosper your soul by meditating on God's Word.
If you look up this verse, you will see that John was addressing this to Gaius. This particular verse is part of the greeting, as if I were to write a letter (or email) to you and say that I am praying that you are well. Nothing in this passage indicates any kind of financial wealth or that it will come through having a prosperous or healthy soul. John's whole point in this short letter is to focus on the walking in the truth, not being prosperous. Context.
quote:
You must practically act on what you believe in order to get results from God's Word.
Faith without works (practical application) is dead (James 2:17).
Said very wrongly. He's saying that you must work to get what you want from God. Completely distorted this passage. James is saying that if there are no works (fruit as defined in Gal. 5:22-23), then you have a dead faith (rather no faith at all). Faith produces works. Dollar is making this into a works-based faith.
quote:
There are practical laws that govern prosperity.
The law of wise decision making
You must make wise decisions in order to acquire wealth.
Meditating on God's Word will enable you to make wise decisions and achieve success (Joshua 1:8).
It's not enough to meditate on the Word, but to also follow God's commands. What is success defined as, though? I don't think it means what Dollar says it means.
quote:
Don't live beyond your means.
Keep track of where your money is going and make adjustments where necessary.
Get rid of credit card debt and pay your bills on time.
That is good practical advice, but just feel-good fodder thrown in to the middle of an otherwise out-of-context sermon.
quote:
The law of diligent, hard work
In order to prosper, you will have to diligently apply yourself to some form of income-producing activity (Proverbs 6:8).
Um...that verse is not talking about making income. It's talking about being as diligent as the ant in your work. Not to be lazy.
quote:
You will not prosper just by giving financially.
Wealth is acquired little by little (Proverbs 13:11).
He forgets about the humbleness aspect of verse 7.
quote:
Diligence forces prosperity to come to you.
Find something you like doing.
Your passion points to the avenue through which you will acquire wealth. iii. Find something you can do that will be of service to others and passionately pursue it.
Diligence will gain Heaven's attention.
Consistency is the key to the breakthrough.
The law of living on a budget
Count the cost of financial decisions you make (Luke 14:28).
Talk about taking a passage out of context!
Jesus was talking about the cost to follow Him. Not about financial decisions.
quote:
Create a reasonable budget so you will know where your money is going.
Determine where you are wasting money.
You will save money when you know where your money is going.
The law of saving, planning ahead and anticipating potential setbacks (unexpected expenses).
Always pay yourself and put money aside.
The law of following the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
Hear both the written and spoken (rhema) Word of God.
Write down what God speaks to you and act on it.
Sounds like this was more of a financial seminar message than a sermon.
Here's the problem with Dollar and people like him.
For one thing, Dollar has no Biblical training, and it appears that he never even had any kind of discipleship. That's from his biography on his website.
People like Dollar like to have a pre-conceived idea and then they go to scripture to back up their idea. That is exactly what he did with the above sermon.
We must allow the scripture to speak.
He took the entire passage about God making man in His own image to mean that God made us gods. How ludicrous is that! Of course, he's not the first person to say that. Benny Hinn and Paul Crouch have also said it. It's a twisting of scripture to fit with one's own preconceived ideas of what one thinks it should say.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Creflo Dollar - 3/16/2007 1:20:19 AM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3180
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Okay, Zildjian, I'll help you out!
First of all Dollar takes all these Scriptures out of context. This is common for teachers of his type. They pick apart the Word of God to make it fit their teaching instead of conforming their teaching to the complete Word of God.
quote:
ORIGINAL: spectre16
this is one of his teachings on wealth what do you think
Dr. Creflo A. Dollar
2/21/07 • 7:00 P.M.
Scripture References
3 John 2
James 2:17
Joshua 1:8
Proverbs 6:8
Proverbs 13:11
Luke 14:28
Summary
There are practical laws that govern prosperity. In order to experience the financial prosperity that God has destined for your life, you must learn both the spiritual and natural aspects of acquiring wealth.
Prosperity begins in your soul (3 John 2).
Prosperity is not what you have, but who you are.
When your soul is prosperous, financial wealth will be drawn to you.
You prosper your soul by meditating on God's Word.
1 "The Elder, To the beloved Gaius, whom I love in truth: 2 Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in all things and be in health, just as your soul prospers. 3 For I rejoiced greatly when brethren came and testified of the truth that is in you, just as you walk in the truth. 4 I have no greater joy than to hear that my children walk in truth" -III John 1-4
God is always more interested in the condition of your soul, than the condition of your pocketbook. "For what would it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses His soul?"
quote:
You must practically act on what you believe in order to get results from God's Word.
Faith without works (practical application) is dead (James 2:17).
15 "If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, 16 and one of you says to them, "Depart in peace, be warmed and filled," but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? 17 Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. "-James 2:15-17
This verse is speaking of helping others, not acting on what you believe to get what you want.
quote:
There are practical laws that govern prosperity.
The law of wise decision making
You must make wise decisions in order to acquire wealth.
Meditating on God's Word will enable you to make wise decisions and achieve success (Joshua 1:8).
8 "This Book of the Law shall not depart from your mouth, but you shall meditate in it day and night, that you may observe to do according to all that is written in it. For then you will make your way prosperous, and then you will have good success. 9 Have I not commanded you? Be strong and of good courage; do not be afraid, nor be dismayed, for the Lord your God is with you wherever you go." -Joshua 1:8,9
After Moses' death, God was establishing His plan to have Joshua lead His people. God was telling him to remember His Word; the Law that He gave to Moses, so that he would succeed in carrying out God's plan.
Once again...nothing to do with acquiring wealth.
quote:
Don't live beyond your means.
Keep track of where your money is going and make adjustments where necessary.
Get rid of credit card debt and pay your bills on time.
The law of diligent, hard work
In order to prosper, you will have to diligently apply yourself to some form of income-producing activity (Proverbs 6:8).
6 "Go to the ant, you sluggard! Consider her ways and be wise, 7 Which, having no captain, Overseer or ruler, 8 Provides her supplies in the summer, And gathers her food in the harvest. 9 How long will you slumber, O sluggard? When will you rise from your sleep? 10 A little sleep, a little slumber, A little folding of the hands to sleep-- 11 So shall your poverty come on you like a prowler, And your need like an armed man." -Proverbs 6:6-8
The warning here is against slothfulness and laziness...it encourages us to take care of ouselves and not become a burden to others...to be good stewards over what God has given us.
quote:
You will not prosper just by giving financially.
Wealth is acquired little by little (Proverbs 13:11).
1"1 Wealth gained by dishonesty will be diminished, But he who gathers by labor will increase." - Proverbs 13:11
This speaks about anything gained by lying and deceit will be lost and encourages earning your wage by hard work.
Again Dollar perverts the verse.
quote:
Diligence forces prosperity to come to you.
Find something you like doing.
Your passion points to the avenue through which you will acquire wealth. iii. Find something you can do that will be of service to others and passionately pursue it.
Diligence will gain Heaven's attention.
Consistency is the key to the breakthrough.
The law of living on a budget
Count the cost of financial decisions you make (Luke 14:28).
Create a reasonable budget so you will know where your money is going.
Determine where you are wasting money.
You will save money when you know where your money is going.
The law of saving, planning ahead and anticipating potential setbacks (unexpected expenses).
Always pay yourself and put money aside.
The law of following the leading of the Holy Spirit.
Faith comes by hearing the Word of God.
Hear both the written and spoken (rhema) Word of God.
Write down what God speaks to you and act on it.
Now you do Luke 14:28 and see what you come up with.
ETA: Oh, Chris beat me to it!!!! I had to go do something and posted this without seeing his post.
< Message edited by Kat_D -- 3/16/2007 1:39:44 AM >
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: Creflo Dollar - 3/16/2007 1:52:47 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1875
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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Hey Kat,
Good Job! Seems we came to the same conclusions. That should say something about a rightful interpretation of scripture in its context.
God Bless,
Chris
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Creflo Dollar - 3/16/2007 7:52:40 AM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1053
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: online
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Whew!!
Thanks for the last two posts, Kat-D, and ccoppenbarger. I was beginning to think this thread was gonna be an attack Creflo Dollar thread, rather than an examine his teachings thread. I mean we must not know very much about a man's teachings when we stoop so low as to attack his name, for crying out loud  . Others have changed their names and we don't disparage them for it. Simon, whose name was changed to Peter, comes to mind. 
Not that I'm defending Creflo Dollar. I think his teaching is a bit off, too.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Creflo Dollar - 3/16/2007 8:02:06 AM
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Soxfan
Posts: 1496
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Connecticut
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Not that I'm defending Creflo Dollar. I think his teaching is a bit off, too.
Is teaching that Jesus came as a man and was not fully God until he was 30 "a bit off"?
From Creflo Dollar's program Jesus' Growth into Sonship, dated December 8, 15, 2002.
"Jesus didn't come as God, he came as a man, and he did not come perfect." He didn't show up perfect, he grew into his perfection."
Sorry, that goes beyond "a bit off". That is rank HERESY!
her-e-sy: In religion an opinion or belief that contradicts established religious teaching, especially one that is officially condemned by a religious authority
Contrast Dollar's teaching against:
John 1:14 - "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth."
_____________________________
"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: Creflo Dollar - 3/16/2007 2:18:15 PM
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greatdivide46
Posts: 1053
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Opp, Alabama
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Whew!!
Thanks for the last two posts, Kat-D, and ccoppenbarger. I was beginning to think this thread was gonna be an attack Creflo Dollar thread, rather than an examine his teachings thread. I mean we must not know very much about a man's teachings when we stoop so low as to attack his name, for crying out loud . Others have changed their names and we don't disparage them for it. Simon, whose name was changed to Peter, comes to mind.
Not that I'm defending Creflo Dollar. I think his teaching is a bit off, too.
Did you see the post about how that is his real name. He's named after his dad.
I did, but since the source was cited as his church, I figured this was another way of disparaging him as a person -- not being presented as fact, but simply as propaganda.
_____________________________
greatdivide46
SFC, USA (Ret)
The reflections of the heart belong to man, but the answer of the tongue is from the LORD -- Proverbs 16:1
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RE: Creflo Dollar - 3/16/2007 3:08:46 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1875
Joined: 2/26/2006
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How is that disparaging him as a person or presenting propaganda? There's lots of rumors floating around about him and his church, like his "name change", the W2 submission to his church, etc. I did him a service by proving those rumors false by finding the actual facts on his website. Now, unless he's lying, which he very well could be, since we've already proven he teaches heretical doctrine, I would say that the information on his website is factual. I wasn't presenting propaganda or disparaging him. I was just showing that his name really is Creflo Dollar (ironically).
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Creflo Dollar - 3/16/2007 3:11:06 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1338
Joined: 2/1/2007
From: nw alabama
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
quote:
ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger
quote:
ORIGINAL: greatdivide46
Whew!!
Thanks for the last two posts, Kat-D, and ccoppenbarger. I was beginning to think this thread was gonna be an attack Creflo Dollar thread, rather than an examine his teachings thread. I mean we must not know very much about a man's teachings when we stoop so low as to attack his name, for crying out loud . Others have changed their names and we don't disparage them for it. Simon, whose name was changed to Peter, comes to mind.
Not that I'm defending Creflo Dollar. I think his teaching is a bit off, too.
Did you see the post about how that is his real name. He's named after his dad.
I did, but since the source was cited as his church, I figured this was another way of disparaging him as a person -- not being presented as fact, but simply as propaganda.
A New York Press article by Lincoln MacVeagh states that dollar was born Michael Smith. A letter to the nypress refutes this and states that Michael Smith had membership/service at World Changers church for 12 years, but that they are two separate people.
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RE: Creflo Dollar - 3/16/2007 8:06:24 PM
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Davidway
Posts: 54
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I personally think that it is morally repugnant for any preacher whether Creflo or any other to preach prosperity as it relates to finances. Creflo's beliefs and teachings on prosperity are stomach-turning. I don't think any preacher who is supposed to represent the Lord should go overboard owning leer jets, roll royces, million dollar mansions. It can really affect their witness for one thing, even if it may not be directly immoral. It's an image issue, and right now his image isn't too great in a lot of peoples' eyes including mine. In addition, those who attend his church must be very shallow to not be able to see through the fog of false theology. Now, don't me wrong, he would make an awesome financial planner and business partner, but that stuff doesn't belong in the church. The church is not a business that's supposed to keep feeling up his coffers. Final word, I don't want to just sound like a Creflo basher. In the end, God knows his heart if he is sincere for God or not, but preachers have no business making church a business and getting rich directly as a result of the it.
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[Deleted] - 3/16/2007 10:43:23 PM
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RE: Creflo Dollar - 3/16/2007 11:45:33 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3180
Joined: 9/2/2005
From: Where We Shake, Rattle & Roll!
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zildjian
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
Then you don't know the Bible very well. You need to spend some more time studying.
You must be a drummer!
Hi Kat
Would you kindly mind tell me why that post (pertaining to Mr. Dollar) was not Biblical? I sure would appreciate it other than telling me "I need to study more".
I used to be a drummer.
Did you see that both Chris and I answered your request? (posts 32 & 33) I'd like to hear what you have to say in response to Dollar's false teaching of those Scriptures.
_____________________________
~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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[Deleted] - 3/17/2007 12:59:10 AM
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RE: Creflo Dollar - 3/17/2007 1:00:15 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1875
Joined: 2/26/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zildjian
Haha, you can say that again!
What amazes me is that it's mostly believers who think all preachers should be poor, while they have no problems with porn stars, pimps, and women-degrading rap artists live in multimillion dollar houses, drive the best of cars, and wear $100K of jewelry at a time.
Do you think preachers are supposed to be rich, then? If so, provide Biblical support for it. Both Kat and I have provided Biblical support against Dollar's teachings, because you wouldn't go look up the scriptures yourself. Instead of taking up for Dollar without providing any proof, give us something to go on.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Creflo Dollar - 3/17/2007 1:04:00 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1875
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Zildjian
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
Did you see that both Chris and I answered your request? (posts 32 & 33) I'd like to hear what you have to say in response to Dollar's false teaching of those Scriptures.
Yeah I saw both of your posts - and both of you clearly twisted some (alot, not all) of Mr. Dollar's words to falsely accuse him of taking scripture out of context.
I'm not going to reply because it seems as though this thread is not about friendly discussion, but more about how many negative things you can find out on the Internet to post.
Sorry, that's just how I feel. I'll participate in some of the other threads. It seems as though your mind (and others) is already made up. What's the point of posting anything, unless I have negative comments to add?
Ciao.
I see. Perhaps you don't have an adequate response. The whole point of this thread is to expose the heretical teachings of Creflo Dollar. The man says we are gods. He says that Jesus was not always perfect and was not always God. Those are both heretical teachings. How did we twist Dollar's words? He's the one who twisted scripture out of context. If he meant something different than what he said, I sure would like to hear it.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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[Deleted] - 3/17/2007 1:06:15 AM
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RE: Creflo Dollar - 3/17/2007 1:12:33 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1875
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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Why is when someone doesn't have an answer to a question, they seem to avoid answering by asking another question?
To answer your question, I believe that God provides for His people to meet every need they have.
Remember in Psalms, it says, "Never have I seen the children beg for bread, nor the righteous forsaken". That's a brief paraphrase. That doesn't mean we should be filthy rich as Dollar is. That's ostentatious. My point is that he twists scriptures to say that all believers should be rich. They shouldn't be poor at all.
Now, answer my question, should preachers be rich? Can you provide a Biblical answer for it? If you respond with another question, I will not answer this time.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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