RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (Full Version)

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Fwanger -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/17/2007 2:48:16 PM)

And what about 2 Thessalonians 1:9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power (how can one be punished with everlasting destruction if universalism is true? Why is there a hell then?)

Matthew 18:8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. (I know that Christ is not condoning self-mutilation, especially since doing so would not cure the sin, being that sins of lust and whatnot are matters of the heart, so desecrating your body would not save you, but why speak of eternal fire then?)

Matthew 25:41 "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. (why have an eternal fire if you only are there for a season?, also according to universalism would Satan not be saved from eternal punishment then, if everyone is saved?)

Matthew 3:29 "But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin." (so by the idea of Universalism, even those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit will be saved, even though Christ says directly that they will not be forgiven)

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

I really would like an answer to the question as to why there is a Great White Throne Judgement, if universalism is to be believed.

Revelation 20:11-15 Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. Earth and sky fled from his presence, and there was no place for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (so was John mistaken in writing that those who are not in the Book of Life, will be thrown in to the lake of fire where they will be tormented forever?)



Him4all -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/17/2007 6:25:36 PM)

Fwanger,

Did you read what I wrote? Every one of your verses is dependent upon a 'time without end' definition of the word aionion. Eternity is wrong. All the following verses which you quoted come from Young's Literal Translation of the bible. Dr. Young is the same man who wrote Young's Concordance. He is quite qualified is presenting this translation.

YLT 2TH 1:9 who shall suffer justice - destruction age-during - from the face of the Lord, and from the glory of his strength,

YLT MAT 18:8 'And if thy hand or thy foot doth cause thee to stumble, cut them off and cast from thee; it is good for thee to enter into the life lame or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet, to be cast to the fire the age-during.

quote:

(how can one be punished with everlasting destruction if universalism is true? Why is there a hell then?...why have an eternal fire if you only are there for a season?, )


They can't be "punished eternally"...that's the point. Why is there a hell and an end to it? Because God's punishment has a purpose...torturing forever doesn't.

ISA 26:9 ...when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.

Why is there a gehenna/hades (hell)? For the same purpose that Jesus baptizes with the Holy Spirit and FIRE...to purge rebellion and sin out of His creation. Have you lost any clothes lately to that fire Fwanger? Our "God is a consuming fire" and is omnipresent, do you see anyone 'going up in smoke'? Your belief of fire is physical and purposeless, and my belief is spiritual in nature and purposeful. Here's a thought for you, God may be "the lake of fire" that hell and death are thrown into. Revelation also says "Behold, I make all things new." And that's the salvation plan I believe God came up with...one good enough to save all his creation.

YLT MAT 25:41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;

quote:

(also according to universalism would Satan not be saved from eternal punishment then, if everyone is saved?)


I'm really not sure about Satan. I do know that the word "prepared" is hetoimazo and means: prepare, provided, make ready. Does that mean Satan is going to be sent to Gehenna or Hades? Or does it mean it was prepared as a tool for him to use, since he himself is merely a tool in the hand of God? Or have you forgot about JOB in the OT?

ISA 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Your view of the devil is that he ruined the perfect plan of a 'omnicient??? God!!! My view is that the devil was part of God's plan from the beginning. My view of God makes Him 'truly omnicient'. Your plan says He didn't KNOW what the devil would do and my plan says He did.

YLT MAR 3:29 but whoever may speak evil in regard to the Holy Spirit hath not forgiveness - to the age, but is in danger of age-during judgment;'

quote:

(so by the idea of Universalism, even those who blaspheme against the Holy Spirit will be saved, even though Christ says directly that they will not be forgiven)

If you don't receive the ministry of the Holy Spirit to "convince the world of sin, righteousness and judgment"...then you are going to suffer the punishment of that action...you simply are going to have to pay the price...which isn't eternal torture but age lasting correction.

EPH 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:

There is a purpose for all the judgments of God, and it is not meaningless torture for eternity.

DR



Fwanger -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/17/2007 6:38:27 PM)

quote:

Did you read what I wrote?


I've read it and I am disagreeing with you. So because Mr. Young says that the translation is wrong, billions of Christians over the last 2 thousand years have been wrong and he is right? If he is correct than why has the wording in every Bible in the world not been changed to fit his translation by removing the word eternity? Why hasn't every preacher in the world changed their teaching to reflect a hell that is only temporary instead of everlasting. Also, if this translation is the absolute correct one, then we do not have eternal life, but life for an age-during? Does that mean that we will not live forever? I notice that you are picking and choosing the verses that I post to respond to. You still have not answered my question about the Great White Throne Judgement. You did not respond to the verse in Revelation 14:11.

quote:

Here's a thought for you, God may be "the lake of fire" that hell and death are thrown into.


I can honestly say this is the first time I have ever heard that. I don't even know how to respond. God is going to punish sinners and Satan and all his legions by throwing them into Himself? That doesn't make any sense.

quote:

Your view of the devil is that he ruined the perfect plan of a 'omnicient??? God!!!


No, that is not my view. God knew what the devil would do and His plan is because of it, not an effect of it.

quote:

If you don't receive the ministry of the Holy Spirit to "convince the world of sin, righteousness and judgment"...then you are going to suffer the punishment of that action...you simply are going to have to pay the price...which isn't eternal torture but age lasting correction


That is not at all what Christ was speaking of at that point. He said that if anyone says a word against the Son of Man it will be forgiven him, but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (which in what He was talking about was attributing the works of God to Satan) will not be forgiven man. And the punishment of that action, which is rejecting the ministry of the Holy Spirit, or Christ's atoning work on the cross, is seperation from God for eternity in hell. That is what the Bible and every Christian has taught since Christ's first Advent. If you refuse His gift, then you have sealed your fate forever. Period.



figmentPez -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/17/2007 6:53:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Him4all
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fwanger

why did He teach the lesson of the sheep and goats if everyone, whether they accept Him or not, will enter the kingdom?


For your last question, read the text in context. This judgment isn't a judgment based upon 'knowing Jesus as savior'. It is a judgment based totally upon works....feeding and giving drink. Or as I said earlier walking as a chosen vessel in obedience.


So, if this is simply a works based judgement, then why do those judged as sheep go to eternal life and those judged as goats go to eternal punishment? If this is merely about earthly status, why does Jesus talk about eternal life? Is it your claim that there is no eternal life for anyone, and only an age of life that has an end?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Him4all

He didn't speak of 'eternal' torment...that is a translation problem, and another study in and of itself. I have a Youngs Literal Translation which doesn't have the word aionios translated as eternal one time. The word aionios is a derivative of the word aion. And aion is translated as 'an age' in the NT. Grammatical laws forbid a derivative to have a force greater than the word they were derived from. For example and hour is 60 minutes long. The word hourly is a derivative of the noun hour. Hourly meetings for whatever length of time they last are still 60 minutes long. You can't say an aion is an age and then say aionios is eternity...it's grammaticaly indefensible. Aionios means something that pertains to the age.


Your argument is that “aion” is always a finite period of time, and that because of “grammatical laws” that makes it impossible for “aionios” to mean anything more than a a finite period of time. Aside from the fact that the origin of words is etymology, not grammar, and that, etymologically speaking, there is no such law, trying to claim that aion always refers to a finite period of time is in itself absurd. Shall we look at what happens if we try and bring these false assumptions to bear on scripture as a whole?

First, lets look at the dreadful things it does to our understanding of verses that use aionios:

Romans 16:26 (NASB)
but now is manifested, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the eternal God, has been made known to all the nations, leading to obedience of faith;

2Corinthians 4:18 (NASB)
while we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen; for the things which are seen are temporal, but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Titus 6:16 (NASB)
who alone possesses immortality and dwells in unapproachable light; whom no man has seen or can see. To Him be honor and eternal dominion! Amen.

Hebrews 13:20 (NASB)
Now the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, even Jesus our Lord,

2Peter 1:11 (NASB)
for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

If we accept the claim that aionios cannot mean eternity, but must mean a finite period of time, some very unpleasant conclusions are forced on us concerning these passages. Under this unbiblical definition: Romans declares that God only exists for a time. 2Corinthians says that unseen things of God only last for a time. Titus claims that God’s dominion will come to an end. Hebrews says that the blood of Christ was not once and for all, but only for the finite age that the covenant lasts. 2Peter says that the kingdom of Jesus Christ will someday fall.

And it only gets worse when we start looking at the use of aion in scripture:

Matthew 6:13 (NASB)
13'And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.]'
Matthew 6:13 (YLT)
'And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, forever. Amen.]'

Aion in these passages is forever. If forever is not really forever, does that mean that God’s kingdom, power and glory are only for a finite period of time? Even your favored literal translation says that this passage is literally talking about forever. How does that line up with your claim that aion only means a finite period of time?

More words of Christ:

Luke 1:33 (NASB)
and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom will have no end."
Luke 1:33 (YLT)
33and he shall reign over the house of Jacob to the ages; and of his reign there shall be no end.'

John 8:51 (NASB)
"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he shall never see death."
John 8:51 (YLT)
‘verily, verily, I say to you, If any one may keep my word, death he may not see – to the age.'

John 10:28 (NASB)
and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.
John 10:28 (YLT)
28and life age-during I give to them, and they shall not perish – to the age, and no one shall pluck them out of my hand;

John 11:26 (NASB)
and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?"
(YLT)
26and every one who is living and believing in me shall not die – to the age;

What shall we conclude about these passages? Is there some limit on Christ’s promise of life? Some limit to Christ’s reign? If aion is always a finite period of time. Then is there a time when Christ’s kingdom will fall? Will the redeemed in Christ see death at the end of Christ’s kingdom? Is eternal life, not really eternal?

For sake of space, I’ll skip the scripture quotations for the next batch.

Do Romans 11:36, Phillippians 4:20, and 2Peter 3:18 mean that God’s glory lasts only for a time? 2Corinthians 9:9, finite righteousness? 2Corinthians 11:31, an end to God being blessed? 1Timothy 1:17, God is not eternally a king, only receiving glory and honor for a time? 2John 1:2, will truth only abide for at time?

Here’s a real kicker. Prophecy from the OT, quoted in the NT.

Hebrews 1:8 (NASB)
But of the Son He says, "Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, And the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.
(YLT)
and unto the Son: `Thy throne, O God, [is] to the age of the age; a scepter of righteousness [is] the scepter of thy reign;

“Forever and ever” or according to Young’s “the age of the age”, a phrase we’ll get to again in just a moment. However, lets look at where the quote comes from:

Psalm 45:6 (NASB)
Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom.
(YLT)
6Thy throne, O God, [is] age-during, and for ever, A sceptre of uprightness [Is] the sceptre of Thy kingdom.

Oh, there is that frustrating “age-during” that you so horribly misunderstand, but followed by a “for ever”. Interesting, even the literal translation of the Hebrew says that God’s throne really is forever, but your claim is that aion cannot mean such a thing. However, other passages that use the same Hebrew word translated here as forever also indicate eternity, even in Young’s

Isaiah 9:6 (YLT)
6For a Child hath been born to us, A Son hath been given to us, And the princely power is on his shoulder, And He doth call his name Wonderful, Counsellor, Mighty God, Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace.

Isaiah 45:17 (YLT)
17Israel hath been saved in Jehovah, A salvation age-during! Ye are not ashamed nor confounded Unto the ages of eternity!

Maybe God’s kingdom will end, and our salvation in Him come to an end? Is that your claim in trying to change the Biblical meaning of aion?

And now we get back to the reason we’re debating over the meaning of these Greek words:

Revelation 20:10 (NASB)
10And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
(YLT)
10and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [are] the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

There is that phrase again “forever and ever”, “to the ages of the ages”. The phrase you’re claiming doesn’t mean eternity, but only means a time. Shall we look at how it’s used elsewhere in the book of Revelation?

Revelation 1:10 (YLT)
6and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him [is] the glory and the power to the ages of the ages! Amen.

Revelation 4:9 (YLT)
9and when the living creatures do give glory, and honour, and thanks, to Him who is sitting upon the throne, who is living to the ages of the ages,

Revelation 5:13 (YLT)
13and every creature that is in the heaven, and in the earth, and under the earth, and the things that are upon the sea, and the all things in them, heard I saying, `To Him who is sitting upon the throne, and to the Lamb, [is] the blessing, and the honour, and the glory, and the might -- to the ages of the ages!'

Revelation 11:15(YLT)
15And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, `The kingdoms of the world did become [those] of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!'

Oh my, insisting that aion must mean a finite period of time really changes the meaning of these passages. Are you sure you want to insist that God’s power, glory, blessing, honor, reign, kingdom and, indeed, His very life, are merely transient? Are you sure you want to claim that the immortal God only lives for a time?

I find your understanding of Biblical Greek to be not only illogical, but outright blasphemous.



figmentPez -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/17/2007 6:55:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Him4all

Because God's punishment has a purpose...torturing forever doesn't.


The just punishment of sin isn't a purpose?



earthless -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/17/2007 9:21:38 PM)

First, Jesus Christ, the creator of the universe and all things, clearly communicated hell's irrevocable reality. He spent more time talking about hell than He did about heaven.

In the Sermon on the Mount alone, He explicitly warned His followers about the dangers of hell a half dozen or more times.

In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus repeatedly warned His followers of the judgment that is to come. And, in His famous story of the Rich Man and Lazarus (Luke 16), Jesus graphically portrayed the finality of eternal torment in hell.

The concept of choice demands that we believe in hell. No one will be in hell saying they do not deserve to be there. God is love, but He is also perfectly just and holy. And the stench of sin, its mark, its repulsiveness to Him is something He will not sit idle for. Without hell, there is no choice. And without choice, heaven would not be heaven; heaven would be hell.

The righteous would inherit a counterfeit heaven, and the unrighteous would be incarcerated in heaven against their wills, which would be a torture worse than hell.

Imagine spending a lifetime voluntarily distanced from God only to find yourself involuntarily dragged into His loving presence for all eternity.

The alternative to hell is worse than hell itself in that humans made in the image of God would be stripped of freedom and forced to worship God against their will.

Finally, common sense dictates that there must be a hell. Without hell, the wrongs of Hitler's Holocaust will never be righted. Justice would be impugned if, after slaughtering six million Jews, and causing the death of millions of others via WWII, Hitler merely died in the arms of his mistress with no eternal consequences.

The ancients knew better than to think such a thing! David knew that for a time it might seem as though the wicked prosper in spite of their deeds, but in the end justice will be served.

Common sense also dictates that without a hell there is no need for a Savior. Little needs to be said about the absurdity of suggesting that the Creator should suffer more than the cumulative sufferings of all of mankind, if there were no hell to save us from. Without hell, there is no need for salvation. Without salvation, there is no need for a sacrifice. And without a sacrifice, there is no need for a Savior.

As much as we may wish to think that all will be saved, common sense precludes the possibility.



Him4all -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/18/2007 11:26:37 AM)

Fwanger,

I'm not "picking and choosing" for 'lack of defense' but for expediency. I just don't want posts to be so long that it becomes a wearying task to both read and respond to. I do have a job. Hope you understand. I spent 10 years studying the ultimate reconcilliation belief before I felt like I had peace with all the questions I had. And this format is not going to be the total answer for anyone here. Hopefully it will cause others to sincerely seek the truth for themselves as I did.

Let me deal with eternity from another angle which IS in your bible. Let's see how long 'for ever' is.

JON 2:6 I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.
This was spoken by Jonah about his time in the whale. So is for ever 3 days?

EXO 21:6 Then his master shall bring him unto the judges; he shall also bring him to the door, or unto the door post; and his master shall bore his ear through with an aul; and he shall serve him for ever.
This verse speaks of a slave committing to serve his master. So is for ever a lifetime?

1KI 8:13 I have surely built thee an house to dwell in, a settled place for thee to abide in for ever.
This speaks of the House of the Lord built by Solomon. And the next verse is God's response to Solomon.

1KI 9:3 And the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.
And yet this temple was utterly destroyed 400 years later. So is for ever and perpetually limited to 400 years by God's own words. I hope you get my point.

quote:

I've read it and I am disagreeing with you.

But you rebutted with nothing concerning the Greek grammatical laws I based my POV upon.

quote:

Also, if this translation is the absolute correct one, then we do not have eternal life, but life for an age-during?

Define 'eternal'. If time is a created entity, and God is outside of that entity, and therefore able to see the end from the beginning any time He looks...then true 'eternal life' is a quality of time more than a quantity of time.

quote:

Does that mean that we will not live forever?

I can experience aionian life in every aion (God's life during any age).

JOH 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.
I experience "eternal life" 'aionian zoe' here and now as 'God's life during this age'. In the next age I will continue in that 'quality' of God life. I know this is a hard teaching which has been much abbreviated for the sake of this format Fwanger.

As far as your concerns and questions with the Young's Literal Translation please give me one biblical scholar's view that he is wrong, and why he is wrong.

quote:

You still have not answered my question about the Great White Throne Judgement. You did not respond to the verse in Revelation 14:11.

Another huge study I can only briefly try to satisfy. There is more than one judgment in scripture. There is judgment past for sin, there is judgment present as sons and there is judgment future as servants. The Great White Throne Judgment is past for all who accept He is lord today. For the rest it will be later.

ROM 14:11 For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God. 12 So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.
1CO 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
Many today believe calling Him Lord will happen by being 'beaten' into submission by an angry Jesus who hates both sin and sinner. Jesus doesn't hate sinners!

1TI 4:10 For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
But for those not saved by God's plan for this age His 'plan for the ages' kicks in. How did everyone from the days of Adam until Abraham ever have an opportuinity "to be saved" Fwanger?

1CO 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. If death=eternal hell then God's enemy lives forever?

I'm stopping for now Fwanger because this is long enough for me. Others have joined in and I honestly don't have time to deal with everyone. Hopefully some others who believe God's plan for all and ultimately includes all will help out here.

DR



Fwanger -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/18/2007 12:08:35 PM)

By your translation or Dr. Young's, let's look at John 3:16, by the definition of eternal that you have given, then we do not inherit eternal life, but life for an age-during. As FigmentPez has pointed out, by Dr. Young's definition, Christ's kingdom would not be eternal but an age-during. You can't pick and choose where eternal means forever and just measn of an definited time or age by that translation. That means that Christ's kingdom and our life in Him would be finite. It doesn't stack up to what has been taught by Christ Himself and the Church for 2,000 years.

Christ has warned repeatedly as earthless pointed out, the dangers of refusing His gift. In Scripture it speaks of the torment of those who don't choose Christ, but choose the Beast instead. That the smoke of their torment will rise forever and ever. That doesn't coincide with a hell that is temporary.

Also, I am very perturbed by your notion that Satan will not suffer his punishment for eternity. That seems very close to blasphemy in my opinion.

Unviersalim doesn't stack up against the plethora of teaching that has been handed down for the last 2,000 years. Not all will be saved. Christ said so Himself. In John 14 when He told everyone, that He is the way, the truth and the Life, NO ONE comes to the Father except through HIM. Those who refuse Him will not enter the kingdom. They will be sent to hell forever. You can't type your argument over and over again, but it stands directly against the teachings of the church and of Jesus Himself.

I've said before that the idea of universalism to me denigrates the work of Christ on the cross. He gave a gift of salvation that must be received. If one refuses that gift, then they are lost. That would be like going to court and being told that you are going to jail unless you pay the fine. You say no, I don't want to pay the fine. Someone stands up and says I'll pay it for you and you turn to them and say no thanks I'll find my own way out of this. Do you really think that the judge would let you go after you refused the gift of payment? He wouldn't be a very good judge if He let you out of it, now would he?

The fact that God is righteous and is the Ultimate Judge should show you that sin must be paid for. And the payment for sin is death and eternal (yes eternal as in FOREVER) seperation from the Father in hell. That is what made what Jesus did so important. He paid the fine. Now if one refuses the payment, they are lost.

I'm done arguing this, because we are just going to go back and forth. I've made my case and have nothing more to add. All I will say before I shake the dust from my heels of this argument is this, why were we commissioned to spread the message of salvation and the Good News if in the end it won't matter because all will be saved anyway?



Him4all -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/18/2007 1:39:26 PM)

Fig,

As I said earlier, I'm not going to anwer or satisfy everyone, but hopefully my last post does answer some of your lenghty points and attending scriptures. The noun aion/age, is a time period and aionion, is an adjective relative to a quality of something in that age. As far as "grammatical law"...show me an adjective which has a definition that's greater than the noun it's derived from.

quote:

Oh my, insisting that aion must mean a finite period of time really changes the meaning of these passages.


I made no such insistance Fig. An aion/age/eon is a definite period of time and isn't used in reference to any of your verses associated with this quote. The word aionian/aionios is. An example is the verse below.

LUK 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world/aion/age to come life everlasting/aionios. In other words God's kind of life pertaining to this present material age...and God's kind of life which will pertain to the age to come. A life which won't be related to "houses, wives, parents, children", (the things Peter was worried about).

quote:

Are you sure you want to insist that God’s power, glory, blessing, honor, reign, kingdom and, indeed, His very life, are merely transient?


I never said any of those things are transient. Again my last post explains it better and pertains to your misunderstanding of Hebrews 1:6 Psalm 45:6. I hope you don't fight so hard to win that you miss the opportunity to be right. [;)]

quote:

I find your understanding of Biblical Greek to be not only illogical, but outright blasphemous.


I totally understand your feeling. As you are now so once was I.

Earthless,

The Luke parable has been dealt with before. The rest of your 'opinion' is noted. Like I said earlier don't have enough time and will have to leave the philosophical debate of the rest of your post unanswered. Sorry.

DR



Him4all -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/18/2007 1:48:16 PM)

Fwanger,

Just read your last post and final thoughts. I missed it while writing my last post. I think you are making a good decision to walk on. God be with you.

DR



figmentPez -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/18/2007 2:55:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Him4all

As far as "grammatical law"...show me an adjective which has a definition that's greater than the noun it's derived from.


First, arguments over etymology is a moot point, since aion can refer to eternity, so aionios must be able to refer to eternity as well.

Second, I don't speak Greek. Citing English examples for Greek etymology would be absurd. At the very least we must consider that one of the Greek words for beauty stems from one of the Greek words for hour. Greek is a complex language, just as English is. Words can and do have meanings greater than the root that they are derived from.

quote:

quote:

Oh my, insisting that aion must mean a finite period of time really changes the meaning of these passages.


I made no such insistance Fig. An aion/age/eon is a definite period of time and isn't used in reference to any of your verses associated with this quote. The word aionian/aionios is.


What? I specifically quoted verses that use the word aion to show that aion can mean eternity, and thus aionian must be able to mean eternity as well, even according to your made up rules.

quote:

But you rebutted with nothing concerning the Greek grammatical laws I based my POV upon.


Grammar is the structure of sentences not words. It's clear that you've made up these "laws" because you don't even know the difference between grammar and etymology.

quote:

then true 'eternal life' is a quality of time more than a quantity of time.


It is LIFE that is quality, and speaks to the wonders of what God grants to those with faith. God certainly does grant eternal life, that really does last forever, despite your claims that such life only lasts for a period of time.

quote:

As far as your concerns and questions with the Young's Literal Translation please give me one biblical scholar's view that he is wrong, and why he is wrong.


It's not about Young being wrong, it's about you not being able to grasp the concept that literal does not equate with simple and easy to understand. If I were translating a French work, and the author called his beloved "mon petite chou" and I wanted to render a literal translation, I would translate it "my little cabbage". However, that does not mean that the author was calling his beloved a small leafy vegetable. Just because a phrase literally translates into a certain phrase, does not mean that word doesn't have a greater meaning than what the most literal equivalent in another language does.

Study of how the words are used in the rest of scripture bears out that what is translated as forever and eternity in less literal translations really do mean forever and eternity.



figmentPez -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/18/2007 3:01:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Him4all


1KI 8:13 I have surely built thee an house to dwell in, a settled place for thee to abide in for ever.
This speaks of the House of the Lord built by Solomon. And the next verse is God's response to Solomon.

1KI 9:3 And the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication, that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually.
And yet this temple was utterly destroyed 400 years later. So is for ever and perpetually limited to 400 years by God's own words. I hope you get my point.


Apparently you don't get God's point. Even though the earthly temple was destroyed, God has established an eternal temple. Solomon's work was not merely physical, it was a physical reflection of a spiritual reality, it was part of prophecy. Apparently you can't see that.



Kath -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/18/2007 4:20:08 PM)

I think it would be a good idea for those who believe all can be saved and/or do not believe in an eternal hell read our Terms of Service, Range of Doctrines and Statement of Faith to make sure they are in compliance.

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Gloryandgrace -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/18/2007 10:32:16 PM)

G166
αἰώνιος
aiōnios
Thayer Definition:
1) without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be
2) without beginning
3) without end, never to cease, everlasting
Part of Speech: adjective

aiōnios =eternal,everlasting,forever,world
Total KJV Occurrences: 71
eternal, 42
Mat_19:16, Mat_25:46, Mar_3:29, Mar_10:17, Mar_10:30, Luk_10:25, Luk_18:18, Joh_3:15, Joh_4:36, Joh_5:39, Joh_6:54, Joh_6:68, Joh_10:28, Joh_12:25, Joh_17:2-3 (2), Act_13:48, Rom_2:7, Rom_5:21, Rom_6:23, 2Co_4:17-18 (2), 2Co_5:1, 1Ti_6:12, 1Ti_6:19, 2Ti_2:10, Tit_1:2, Tit_3:7, Heb_5:9, Heb_6:2, Heb_9:12, Heb_9:14-15 (2), 1Pe_5:10, 1Jo_1:2, 1Jo_2:25, 1Jo_3:15, 1Jo_5:11, 1Jo_5:13, 1Jo_5:20, Jud_1:7, Jud_1:21
everlasting, 25
Mat_18:8, Mat_19:29, Mat_25:41, Mat_25:46, Luk_16:9, Luk_18:30, Joh_3:16, Joh_3:36, Joh_4:14, Joh_5:24, Joh_6:27, Joh_6:40, Joh_6:47, Joh_12:50, Act_13:46, Rom_6:22, Rom_16:26, Gal_6:8, 2Th_1:9, 2Th_2:16, 1Ti_6:16 (2), Heb_13:20, 2Pe_1:11, Rev_14:6
world, 3
Rom_16:25, 2Ti_1:9, Tit_1:2
ever, 1
Phm_1:15

Its a nice try to force a limitation on eternal because the contexts of eternal or everlasting allow it, but to force it upon contexts that do not intend a limitation is to be false to the texts and opening yourself up to deception. It would be better for anyone who believes this way to serious reconsider your position.

Its also very possible to limit the meaning of a text to its circumstantial earthly meaning when a broader fuller meaning is intended and warranted by the context.

For the sake of limiting everlasting we are forced also to limit the glory of God to a temporal glory. for the scripture says.. 1Ti 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power everlasting. Amen.
Would you for the sake of limiting "everlasting" limit the power and glory of God which is said to be everlasting?
Or would you limit God himself? Rom 16:26 But now is made manifest, and by the Scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:
Is God now temporal?

Since context rules the usage, and comparison in context rules interpretation, everlasting life and everlasting damnation spoken of side by side interpret themselves.
Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal. Both of these 'eternal and everlasting' are the same word.

It doesnt take long to see that the doctrine of temporal purgation which is upheld by the forced interpretation of "aionios" is only the position of bias and not credible interpretation or scholarship.

Robertsons word pictures says this.

Mat 25:46 -
Eternal punishment (kolasin aiōnion). The word kolasin comes from kolazō, to mutilate or prune. Hence those who cling to the larger hope use this phrase to mean age-long pruning that ultimately leads to salvation of the goats, as disciplinary rather than penal. There is such a distinction as Aristotle pointed out between mōria (vengeance) and kolasis. But the same adjective aiōnios is used with kolasin and zōēn. If by etymology we limit the scope of kolasin, we may likewise have only age-long zōēn. There is not the slightest indication in the words of Jesus here that the punishment is not coeval with the life. We can leave all this to the King himself who is the Judge. The difficulty to one’s mind about conditional chastisement is to think how a life of sin in hell can be changed into a life of love and obedience. The word aiōnios (from aiōn, age, aevum, aei) means either without beginning or without end or both. It comes as near to the idea of eternal as the Greek can put it in one word. It is a difficult idea to put into language. Sometimes we have “ages of ages” (aiōnes tōn aiōnōn).

Robertson trying to be fair with the word, leaves little hope that such a phrase is meant to be taken as temporal and therefore the question arises "Is Gods' intention a purgation of sins"?

The answer is No, purgations of sins is no where found, but punishment.

G2851
κόλασις
kolasis
Thayer Definition:
1) correction, punishment, penalty
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from G2849
Citing in TDNT: 3:816, 451

The scripture never uses the penalty of the law as a purgation of sins. It uses it as a punishment of sin and a righteous judgment rendered for strict justice sake in honor to God and his glory. Therefore to interpret as I have read in previous posts that Jesus meant temporal pruning so that fruit may come forth eventually is bad theology as well as bad transliteration.

John



Craig_SOtW -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/25/2007 6:47:34 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansC

Can a Universalist be saved? Can someone who holds to the belief of Universalism be saved? By universalism I mean the belief that ALL people will eventually end up in heaven, that a good and loving God would not condemn man to eternal darkness.

What do you guys think?

Hans


Yes. Regardless of the eschatology view of the end concerning the doctrine of hell, heaven, gehenna, paradise, and the salvation of all mankind is not nessesary for salvation in the first place.

For argument sake:

Let us say universalism is true and all mankind are saved (how ever, or what ever process it takes) and one trusts and believes in Jesus Christ for their own salvation, are they are saved?

Let us say universalism is not true and all mankind is not saved (how ever, or what ever process it takes) and one trusts and believes in Jesus Christ for their own salvation are the saved?

Does the eschatology determine who is saved? No. Whether a person believes in universalism or not, does not change the fact that anyone who trusts and believes in Jesus Christ for their own salvation, will be saved.

On this matter, do you even trust or believe that a person who claims to trust and believe in Jesus Christ, truly trusts and believes? Only God can judge the heart and weight the matter. In all things God still remains the ultimate judge because He is a the Lawgiver. Whatever His judgments are: Whether universalist or orthodox, catholic or protestant, they are just and no man has any excuse for their sins.

[8|]



Craig_SOtW -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/25/2007 6:55:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: figmentPez
Universalism is NOT a Christian doctrine. Jesus Christ did not teach it and no one who teaches that all will be saved is a Christian.


Then you should fear greatly that your doctrines, dogma's and statement of faith is without a doubt, without question, with your i's dotted and your t's crossed because buddy, you just condemned yourself to Gehenna Judgment should you be imperfect in any of your beliefs finding yourself wrong in anything concerning Christianity.

Romans 2:1-4
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?

Doctrines do not save you, dogma's do not save you, Jesus saved you. You are saved by grace through faith - this not even of your own - it is a gift from God. Not by your works, lest anyone should boast. Eph 2:7-9

Be real and always apply any and all judgments to yourself before you are perfect to make such judgments against others.



KHutcheson -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/25/2007 7:08:07 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Craig_SOtW

For argument sake:

Let us say universalism is true and all mankind are saved (how ever, or what ever process it takes) and one trusts and believes in Jesus Christ for their own salvation, are they are saved?

Let us say universalism is not true and all mankind is not saved (how ever, or what ever process it takes) and one trusts and believes in Jesus Christ for their own salvation are the saved?

Does the eschatology determine who is saved? No. Whether a person believes in universalism or not, does not change the fact that anyone who trusts and believes in Jesus Christ for their own salvation, will be saved.

Thank you, Craig. You said what I was trying to, only much more eloquently.

Kevin



figmentPez -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/25/2007 10:47:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Craig_SOtW

quote:

ORIGINAL: figmentPez
Universalism is NOT a Christian doctrine. Jesus Christ did not teach it and no one who teaches that all will be saved is a Christian.


Then you should fear greatly that your doctrines, dogma's and statement of faith is without a doubt, without question, with your i's dotted and your t's crossed because buddy, you just condemned yourself to Gehenna Judgment should you be imperfect in any of your beliefs finding yourself wrong in anything concerning Christianity.

Romans 2:1-4
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?

Doctrines do not save you, dogma's do not save you, Jesus saved you. You are saved by grace through faith - this not even of your own - it is a gift from God. Not by your works, lest anyone should boast. Eph 2:7-9

Be real and always apply any and all judgments to yourself before you are perfect to make such judgments against others.


This post has made me realize that I need to both clarify my postion, as well as reexamine it.

My reasons for condemning those who teach universalism, primarily condemning churches and secondarily individuals, is not simply because they have a single point of doctrine that is wrong. It is because all churches that teach universalism are teaching a false god. They proclaim a god that is not the God of the Bible, even if they call their idol "jesus christ". It is because those churches teach a god who is definitively a different god than the LORD that they are to not be considered Christian, not merely because they interpret a few passages of scripture differently. The God of the Bible, His character, His nature, His statements, are all contrary to universal salvation. For a church to hold to universalism, they must be teaching a false God. This isn't even a close thing, I no of no church teaching universalism that even comes close to proclaiming the One True God.

As for individuals, I must admit in my zeal I have been judgmental. If those individuals hold to doctrines that teach a false god, then they certainly are not saved. However, I cannot say with certainty that it is impossible to know the real God and yet cling to universal salvation. How that could work within the mind of an individual... I have no clue. Honestly, I struggle to understand how it would be possible to know the reality of the LORD, His character, His nature, His scripture, and yet still come to a conclusion about salvation that is contrary to that, but I can't say for certain that it is impossible for an individual to have real faith, yet still claim that all will be saved.



floydette -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/26/2007 7:26:22 AM)

I believe that most people have a portion or two of the character of God that they misunderstand. For example, I grew up in a church where the god that was taught was more like a policeman waiting for you to mess up, rather than a loving father. Did they preach a false god? No, I don't think so. I believe that they misunderstood alot about God. I know many people that would fall into that category.

So, IF universalists misunderstand a portion of Christ's character, they would not differ from some Baptists, Lutherans or Catholics that misunderstand as well.



Craig_SOtW -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/26/2007 4:39:13 PM)

Thanks!

quote:

ORIGINAL: figmentPez

quote:

ORIGINAL: Craig_SOtW

quote:

ORIGINAL: figmentPez
Universalism is NOT a Christian doctrine. Jesus Christ did not teach it and no one who teaches that all will be saved is a Christian.


Then you should fear greatly that your doctrines, dogma's and statement of faith is without a doubt, without question, with your i's dotted and your t's crossed because buddy, you just condemned yourself to Gehenna Judgment should you be imperfect in any of your beliefs finding yourself wrong in anything concerning Christianity.

Romans 2:1-4
You, therefore, have no excuse, you who pass judgment on someone else, for at whatever point you judge the other, you are condemning yourself, because you who pass judgment do the same things. Now we know that God's judgment against those who do such things is based on truth. So when you, a mere man, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God's judgment?

Doctrines do not save you, dogma's do not save you, Jesus saved you. You are saved by grace through faith - this not even of your own - it is a gift from God. Not by your works, lest anyone should boast. Eph 2:7-9

Be real and always apply any and all judgments to yourself before you are perfect to make such judgments against others.


This post has made me realize that I need to both clarify my postion, as well as reexamine it.

My reasons for condemning those who teach universalism, primarily condemning churches and secondarily individuals, is not simply because they have a single point of doctrine that is wrong. It is because all churches that teach universalism are teaching a false god. They proclaim a god that is not the God of the Bible, even if they call their idol "jesus christ". It is because those churches teach a god who is definitively a different god than the LORD that they are to not be considered Christian, not merely because they interpret a few passages of scripture differently. The God of the Bible, His character, His nature, His statements, are all contrary to universal salvation. For a church to hold to universalism, they must be teaching a false God. This isn't even a close thing, I no of no church teaching universalism that even comes close to proclaiming the One True God.


Hello figmentPez,

It is no different from a Calvinist from an Armenian differences and simularities.

Generally Propositional Statements held by Calvism says:
•That Jesus Christ gave himself a ransom for only a part of mankind.
•All those whom Jesus Christ gave a ransom for will be saved.
•God can save all mankind, but will not.

Generally Propositional Statements held by Arminianism says:
•That Jesus Christ gave himself a ransom for all mankind.
•A part of those for whom Jesus Christ gave a ransom for will be saved.
•God would save all mankind, but cannot.

Now Generally Propositional Statements held by Christian Universalism says:
•That Jesus Christ gave himself a ransom for all mankind.
•All those whom Jesus Christ gave a ransom for will be saved.
•God can save all mankind, and will.

Basically, the red is negative statements, the green is positive statements.

Luke 18:26-28
Those who heard this asked, "Who then can be saved?"
Jesus replied, "What is impossible with men is possible with God."

quote:

ORIGINAL: figmentPez
As for individuals, I must admit in my zeal I have been judgmental. If those individuals hold to doctrines that teach a false god, then they certainly are not saved. However, I cannot say with certainty that it is impossible to know the real God and yet cling to universal salvation. How that could work within the mind of an individual... I have no clue. Honestly, I struggle to understand how it would be possible to know the reality of the LORD, His character, His nature, His scripture, and yet still come to a conclusion about salvation that is contrary to that, but I can't say for certain that it is impossible for an individual to have real faith, yet still claim that all will be saved.


That answered the OP's question of which HansC asked. Your answer, you cannot say with certainty that it is impossible for a Universalist be saved; you can't say for certain that it is impossible for an individual to have real faith, yet still claim that all will be saved, is the honest answer.

As I hopefully helped point out above, it is not hard to see how a Christian Universalist, can and probably does believe in the same Jesus Christ, same Father and same Holy Spirit as the Calvinist and Arminian, and still be saved even if they are wrong about all mankind being saved.

Thank-you and God Bless,

Craig



KHutcheson -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/26/2007 5:29:13 PM)

Ditto what Craig said.

[sm=thumbsup.gif]

Great way to frame that argument, bro.

It really bothers me to see our brothers and sisters in Christ so maligned because they simply have a bigger view of God's grace than we non-universalists do.

Kevin



Craig_SOtW -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/26/2007 6:23:29 PM)

I agree Kevin.

quote:

ORIGINAL: KHutcheson

Ditto what Craig said.

[sm=thumbsup.gif]

Great way to frame that argument, bro.

It really bothers me to see our brothers and sisters in Christ so maligned because they simply have a bigger view of God's grace than we non-universalists do.

Kevin


This is the point of wisdom in Scripture that applies:

Acts 5:38-39
So in the present case, I say to you, stay away from these men and let them alone, for if this plan or action is of men, it will be overthrown; but if it is of God, you will not be able to overthrow them; or else you may even be found fighting against God."

Simply, trust God's judgment in all things.

1 Corinthians 13:12
Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

I do not believe the OP was ever asking if Unviersalism was true, but rather if a person who believes it to be true, is saved. We cannot ever say, "No" or else should we be wrong, we would be found fighting against God and upon realizing this, we would all then have hoped for Universalism to be true. Hahaha. [:D] Oh the irony of judgments.

Craig



KHutcheson -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/26/2007 6:58:28 PM)

Good point, Craig. Also, people confuse general universalism with Christian universalism (also called Universal Reconciliation). They are very different belief systems. The general universalist pretty much believes any road will get you to a happy afterlife. The Christian universalist is adamant that Christ's sacrifice on the cross is what reconciles us to God and thusly to Heaven upon our earthly death. Those are two vastly different belief systems. So if universalism is not true, the general universalist would not be saved, but the Christian universalist would.

Kevin



Craig_SOtW -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/26/2007 7:38:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KHutcheson

Good point, Craig. Also, people confuse general universalism with Christian universalism (also called Universal Reconciliation). They are very different belief systems. The general universalist pretty much believes any road will get you to a happy afterlife. The Christian universalist is adamant that Christ's sacrifice on the cross is what reconciles us to God and thusly to Heaven upon our earthly death. Those are two vastly different belief systems. So if universalism is not true, the general universalist would not be saved, but the Christian universalist would.

Kevin


Yes. There is two types of Universalist, Christian Universalist (who trusts in Jesus Christ for the Salvation of all mankind, including themselves) and a (as you call it) general Universalist (One who denies that Jesus Christ is responsible for the Salvation of all mankind) who believes all are saved as part of a cosmic or mystical or reincarnation, etc. means.

I made the assumption that the OP was referring to the a Christian Universalist, being that it is a Christian Forum and under the Salvation heading. Though perhaps there needs to be clarification.

So here is the Propositional Statements bare with me.

Propositoinal Statement:
Assuming all 'Christians' have genuine faith in Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father for salvation and the final product of their faith is salvation.

Propositional Conclusion

Then:

1. If Christian Universalism is true; then,
a) All Christian Universalists are saved.
b) All Universalists are saved.
c) All Christians are saved.
d) All Non-Christians are saved.

2. If Universalism is true; then,
a) All Christian Universalists are saved.
b) All Universalists are saved.
c) All Christians are saved.
d) All Non-Christians are saved.

3. If Arminianism is true, then,
a) All Christian Universalists are saved.
b) No Universalists are saved.
c) All Christians are saved.
d) No Non-Christians are saved.

4 If Calvinism is true, then,
a) Some (or all) Christian Universalists are saved.
b) Some (or none) Universalists are saved.
c) Some (or all) Christians are saved
b) Some (or none) Non-Christians are saved.

(The many views in Calvinism cause me to put the conditions depending on the propositional understanding).

As we can see, the answers demonstrate, based on the propositional statement:

Assuming all 'Christians' have genuine faith in Jesus Christ, the only begotten of the Father for salvation and the final product of their faith is salvation.

As long as you are a 'Christian' you are saved, regardless of your view of another person's salvation. It is ironic to condemn a person for their view of another person's salvation, because regardless of the judgment, only God knows the heart of a man in order to save them.

Craig



Aphobos -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (7/27/2007 12:13:24 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HansC

Can a Universalist be saved? Can someone who holds to the belief of Universalism be saved? By universalism I mean the belief that ALL people will eventually end up in heaven, that a good and loving God would not condemn man to eternal darkness.


While I think that universalism is blatantly unbiblical, I would have to grant the possibility that someone might be saved who is a universalist. But boy would that person be sorely disappointed when he/she arrives in heaven.

Origen, for example, was a universalist. He believed that God would one day restore all of creation to its rightful order -- including its sinful inhabitants. This belief, known as apokatastasis, was popular among several of the Early Church Fathers and is based on passages like 1 Corinthians 15:28.

I think that now, in light of almost 2,000 years of Christian thought and reflection on the scriptures, it is virtually impossible to be a universalist and be a Christian. Still, I will admit the exceedingly slight possibility.

~Aphobos



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