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SnapDraggin -> RE: Can a Universalist be saved? (4/8/2008 11:59:47 PM)
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ORIGINAL: Dred
Origen is not of such good repute among orthodox Christians; why did you choose to mention him rather than one of the others, such as Gregory of Nyssa? And which of the great fathers of the early church stated any agreement with points 7 through 10?
Morning Dred,
Of course Origen wasn't in good repute with the orthodoxy. He believed in the salvation of Satan! God made Satan the way he is (Gen 3:1; Joh 8:44) and God will restore Satan again. Orthodoxy will absolutely class that as heretical. Ahhh, but if you try and find the reasons why Origen was deemed heretical, it's not so crystal clear and sounds fishy, because very good things are said about Origen if you dig a little deeper - he was well respected and the accusations are vague..
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The historian Schaff concedes that among those quickened and inspired to follow Origen were Pamphilus, Eusebius of Cæsarea, Didymus of Alexandria, Athanasius, Basil the Great, Gregory of Nazianzum, and Gregory of Nyssa; and among the Latin fathers, Hilary and Jerome. And he feels obliged to add: "Gregory of Nyssa and perhaps also Didymus, even adhered to Origen's doctrine of the final salvation of all created intelligences."[2]("The theology of Christendom and its character for the first three centuries was shaped by three men. Ignatius, Irenæus and Cyprian gave its organization; Clement and Origen its form of religious thought." British Quarterly Review, 1879)
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The treatment experienced by Origen is one of the abnormalities of history. The first hostility to him, followed by his deposition and excommunication, A.D. 232, is conceded to have been in consequence of his opposition to the Episcopal tendencies of Bishop Demetrius, and the envy of the bishop. His Universalism was not in question. Lardner says that he was "not expelled from Alexandria for heresy, but for envy." Bunsen says: "Demetrius induced a numerous synod of Egyptian bishops to condemn as heretical Origen's opinion respecting the universality of final salvation." But Bunsen seems to contradict his own words by adding: "This opinion he had certainly stated so as even to hold out a prospect of the conversion of Satan himself by the irresistible power of the love of the Almighty," bet he was condemned "'not,' as says St. Jerome, who was no friend to his theology, 'on account of novelty of doctrine--not for heresy--but because they could not bear the glory of his learning and eloquence.'" The opposition to Origen seems to have begun in the petty anger of Demetrius, who was incensed because of Origen, a layman, delivered discourses in the presence of bishops (Alexander and Theoctistus), though at their request, and because he was ordained out of his diocese. Demetrius continued his persecutions until he had degraded Origen from the office of presbyter, though all the ecclesiastical authorities in Palestine refused to recognize the validity of the sentence. His excommunication, however, was disregarded by the bishops of Palestine, Arabia and Greece. Going from Alexandria to Greece and Palestine, Origen was befriended by Bishop Firmilian in Cappadocia for two years; and was also welcomed in Nicomedia and Athens.4
Huet says: "Everyone, with hardly an exception, adhered to Origen." And Doucin: "Provided one had Origen on his side, he believed himself certain to have the truth."
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"The voice of the Alexandrian [Origen] is more like that glowing, rainless desert wind that sometimes sweeps over the Nile delta, with a thoroughly unromantic passion: pure, fiery gusts. Two names come to mind in comparison: Heraclitus and Nietzsche. For their work too is, externally, ashes and contradiction, and makes sense only because of the fire of their souls which forces their unmanageable material into a unity and, with a massive consumption of fuel, leaves behind a fiery track straight across the earth. Their passion, however, stems only from the Dionysian mystery of the world. But here, in Origen, the flame shoots out and darts upward to the mystery of the super-worldly Logos-WORD [. . .]"
Origen's alleged words...
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"I want to be a man of the Church. I do not want to be called by the name of some founder of a heresy, but by the name of Christ, and to bear that name which is blessed on the earth. It is my desire, in deed as in spirit, both to be and to be called a Christian.
If I, who seem to be your right hand and am called Presbyter and seem to preach the Word of God, If I do something against the discipline of the Church and the Rule of the Gospel so that I become a scandal to you, The Church, then may the whole Church, in unanimous resolve, cut me, its right hand, off, and throw me away."
And now something different, to show something regarding orthodoxy vs heterodoxy... It's all about propoganda..
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In 1517, a year after the publication of the Novum Instrumentum and while the Complutensian Polyglot was still in press, Luther proclaimed his famous 95 theses from the door of the Schlosskirche in Wittenberg. Luther's final break with Rome occured in 1520, when he denounced the Roman Church and all its doctrines, and he invited all German pinces to follow him. In June 1520, the pope declared all writings by Luther to be heretical and ordered their destruction. In reply, Luther burned the papal bull. On January 3 1521 he was excommunicated, and he withdrew into tactical hiding at the twelfth-century castle of the Wartburg, near Eisenach in Thuringia...
Things like these make you wonder just how much fairplay is involved, before accusing someone of heresy, and there's much much more examples.
Regards
Snappy
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