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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/12/2008 6:42:34 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1373
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rapturefish
I would say there is still a difference between those who merely don't believe that the gifts of the Spirit (supernatural) are not for today and those who actually embrace elements of charismatic/Pentecostal practice. There are people who are reformed and would not deny that the gifts are for today but in practice they would steer clear of anything that looked c/P or 'out there'. In these cases I wouldn't call this a reformed charismatic mindset.
I would define it as people who have experienced a bit of both mindsets and ended up embracing important elements of both. In this case I would probably say a number who have posted here would fit into this category, and some would be less so, probably more the 'open but cautious' category used in Grudem's book (ed.) on 4 views of miraculous gifts.
What prevents embracing the best of both worlds? We have the prime example of Paul and those in the early church who either showed evidence of spiritual supernatural gifts or openly welcomed them, and also firmly held the word in high regard the way Paul showed. It was one and the same world for them, and it would be beneficial to see that as a good way for Christians today.
Good post.
The man I think of that was thoroughly reformed, but also experienced a subsequent to salvation baptism in the Holy Spirit is D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones. Lloyd-Jones pastored Westminster Chapel in London for almost 30 years. He was very influential in Iain Murray publishing puritan books through Banner of Truth Trust, and very influencial in resurrecting interest in reformed theology and expository preaching in Enland and throughout the world. He was criticized by the reformed camp for his view of the baptism in the Holy Spirit and also criticized by charismatics for his distancing himself from the unbalanced extremes of that movement. Anyone interested in exceptional reformed preaching and teaching that was "logic on fire, eloquent reason . . . theology coming through a man who is on fire" would find much satisfaction and edification from reading anything by Lloyd-Jones. He spends much time in his expositions of Romans (I highly recommend these 14 volumes, Banner of Truth) and Ephesians (8 volumes, Baker) in discussing his view of the baptism in the Holy Spirit. He has one book (I think is still in print) that deals specifically with the baptism with the Spirit and Revival called Joy Unspeakable.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/12/2008 9:52:00 AM
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JimboFletch
Posts: 4750
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
Good post.
...also criticized by charismatics for his distancing himself from the unbalanced extremes of that movement...
That's why even today I distinguish between Charismatics and Pentecostals. In the 70s and early 80s, Charismatics and Pentecostals were quick to let you know that there was a difference. "Pentecostal" was identified with specific denominations (which would include the "extremes" of today) but Charismatics transcended denominations. There were Charismatic Catholics, Baptists, Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. But Pentecostals were a narrowly defined group that would not have felt at all comfortable around Charismatics (many that they considered lost and on their way to eternal torment) - and vice versa.
Now that the line have become blurred, it seems that both Charismatics and Pentecostals have become associated with the extremes and extreme doctrines.
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/14/2008 1:01:14 PM
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johnkw
Posts: 394
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
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ICB,
Thanks for the encouraging testimony. God bless.
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/14/2008 1:04:38 PM
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johnkw
Posts: 394
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
[
The man I think of that was thoroughly reformed, but also experienced a subsequent to salvation baptism in the Holy Spirit is D. Martyn Lloyd-Jones. ...
He spends much time in his expositions of Romans (I highly recommend these 14 volumes, Banner of Truth) and Ephesians (8 volumes, Baker) in discussing his view of the baptism in the Holy Spirit. He has one book (I think is still in print) that deals specifically with the baptism with the Spirit and Revival called Joy Unspeakable.
Blessings,
SH
Thanks, SH. I've heard *of* him many times, but never read him. I'd better add him to the reading list. Sounds great! I love that he spends a lot of time in Romans in Ephesians.
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 5/15/2008 10:53:47 AM
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TheoJunkie
Posts: 2343
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: johnkw
I'm a bit ignorant, so pardon me if I mischaracterize. But my impression is that most hard-core Reformed Christians do not believe that the, shall I say, sensational expressions of the Holy Spirit were meant to continue past the age of the Apostles. I'm looking for people out there who fully subscribe to Calvinistic theology (Belgic Confession, Canons of Dort, Westminster Catechisms, etc.), and who also move in (or at least believe in) what some call the sign gifts, others call miracles, others call signs and wonders. Are you out there?
For the record, I'm not a Calvinist (but the jury's still out on this one--I'm listening to a lot of James White material), I do believe in the sensational gifts (and have moved in them to some extent), but also believe that they must be operated in decently and in order. And when I say 'hard-core', I mean that with the utmost respect.
I am a "hard core" Calvinist (by which I mean, I affirm the doctrines of grace, all 5 points of TULIP, and all 5 "solas".)
But to be clear, I presume you do NOT include "hypercalvinism" in your definition of "hard core". Hypercalvinism is not Calvinism, just as pelagianism is not Arminianism. I am a Calvinist... not a hypercalvinist. Further, to clarify, I do not know what John Calvin taught on the Gifts, for example. I am not a "follower of John Calvin"-- though I respect him greatly as a theologian.
I also am a continuationist with regard to the Spiritual Gifts. So:
Do I believe that all the Spiritual Gifts are still active today? Yes.
Including prophesy, healing and tongues?? Yes.
Do I believe that all believers are given one or more Gifts? Yes.
Do I believe that any particular Spiritual Gift is "required evidence" of salvation? NO.
Do I believe that all believers are given all Gifts? NO.
Do I believe that anytime someone babbles in a "tongue" it is from God? NO.
Do I believe that people with the healing gift can "invoke" healing in a person? NO.
Do I believe that the exercise of prophesy carries more weight than Scripture? NO.
All Gifts are from God. The Holy Spirit gives each gift as he sees fit. Gifts are for the edification of the church. Gifts are exercised only by the will of God. Therefore, Gifts and their use and their fruits can never contradict God, can never contradict scripture, can never be used to "move God". Prophesy will never reveal something new about God and will never provide a new command from God. Healing will never be contrary to God's will for a person, and can only be done in conformity with God's will for a person. Tongues can only be used to edify the church-- and an interpreter will always be present. The gift of "apostleship" does not mean someone is an Apostle in the likes of the 11 and Paul.
(and on and on).
In short: if anyone seems to have a gift, or purports to have a gift, that violates "by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, as revealed in Scripture alone, for the glory of God alone"... then this so-called "gift" is NOT from God. Because God's gifts are given by God, and God does not contradict himself.
If this means (and it does) that gifts of prophesy, tongues, healing, etc, have taken on a new "shape" or "form" or "use" in the post-Apostolic days, then so be it. But they continue nonetheless.
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Are there any Reformed Charismatics out there? - 6/6/2008 2:09:13 PM
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ChristopherJ
Posts: 196
Joined: 11/30/2007
From: Canada (The True North Strong and Free!)
Status: offline
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What a great discussion topic! When I got saved, I was a part of a Word of Faith church, and that was all I knew. However, the more I grew in my knowledge of God's Word, the more I realized that there was much of what they were teaching that was extra-biblical, out of balance, and even heretical. Then, a couple of years later, a friend of mine introduced me to reformed theology (the doctrines of grace, Calvinism, etc) through the writings of Charles Spurgeon (my personal favourite!), Arthur Pink, John Bunyan, etc. and through these reformed writings, the Lord brought me out of the WOF movement - praise the Lord! However, the church I ended up in was a charismatic reformed church - one that believed in the doctrines of grace, but also in the perpetuity of the spiritual gifts. And so I consider myself to be reformed in my soteriology, but charismatic in my pneumatology. Glad to know there are others out there who believe the same way!
_____________________________
Chris Jordan
www.beausejourchurch.ca
http://thelandofpromise.blogspot.com/
(visit our website for free MP3 audio sermons, sermon notes, articles, devotionals and more).
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