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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 11/26/2007 6:03:03 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2323
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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Of course, there are two sides to the issue.
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 12/1/2007 9:59:58 AM
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jbow
Posts: 973
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Hey Larry,
I think we agree but I do have some thoughts. I have not read this whole thread so forgive me is I repeat anyone. The way I see it is that Jesus is Lord over all, ultimately... that is, in the end. He is Lord now over the new man. The old man would not submit and had to be killed. However we still deal with the old man, the flesh. We, as Christians, can walk in the flesh or in the Spirit and we all do one or the other all the time. The old man must be lorded over but it is by the new man that it is done and the new man is, of course none other than Christ in us.
I was thinking about this yesterday and this morning as it relates to me. Then I saw this thread so I posted here.
What I have been thinking about is how to jive my life experience with the Gospel. Let me tell you what I am talking about.
I first believed as a kid, I don't remember how old but I went forward and I received Christ, at His invitation. I was full of joy. After church I said to my mom, "We should go out and celebrate"! I really felt great. She turned around in the car and said to me, "This is serious, this is not the kind of thing you celebrate". Well... excuse me... and that was that for the joy. I didn't grow, as you can imagine and as a teen was in a band and all the other stuff that went with the 60s. I graduated HS in 1970 and immediately started getting high. I went headlong into the pseudo-hippie sub-culture for several years BUT.. this whole time, while completely in the flesh and sin, I also completely held to my faith in Christ as the Son of God and as my savior. Maybe I was mistaken, I don't know... that is what I am trying to "flesh out", laff.
I got invited/insisted to go to a D. Wilkerson meeting and while I did not go forward, I did trash the little babbie in my pocket and started going to an A/G church. I got really into the whole thing and learned a lot. I remember I decided to smoke pot again and then I asked Jesus, "What is wrong with this"? Immediately the phone rang and it was an elderly black lady who was poor, who had worked for us. She had heard that the 1st. Baptist church, where my family went, was getting a new stove for their kitchen and she wanted us to speak up for her to possibly get the old one. Well, I was too high to understand what she wanted or to help... so then I understood what was worng with it and I stopped... for a while. Eventually, I heard the flesh calling and I guess the new wore off the whole church thing and I went back to partying. I was alway's either in or out. I could never walk the fence. That lasted for nearly a year... miserable the whole time, (you can go back but it's never the same because of the Spirit always calling and convicting you). So, I repented and started going to church again... full speed ahead, until I fell away again... then it became a kind of roller coaster experience of try really hard, fall, quit, try really hard again, fall, quit... etc etc etc...
So, about 15+ years ago I was going to a Spirit filled Baptist church and I remember so plainly laying in my bed thinking that I reeally wanted to go get a 6 pack of beer... no, i want to keep doing right, no I want the beerm, no, yes, no, yes... I went and got the beer and began most of the last 15 years. He let me see just how bad I am. He brought me back about a year ago and, while i still struggle with some personal issues, I now know to run to Hiim if I fall. Do you know whay I know to run to Him? Because I have found Him to be faithful even when I am unfaithful. He has protected me from myself and from others. From me accidentally killing myself, from angry people with guns trying to kill me, from prison, from shame to myself and my family. He has been nothing but good to me.
I will go a bit farther with this if I may. Into a little mysticism if you will.
Before the beer thing that happened 15+ years ago I had a dream, a dream from Christ. I don't know if you have ever had dreams from God but if you do... you know.
This is the first dream:
I was on a large stage, over to the left, facing the audience. It was a huge crowd but I could not make out any faces. Jesus was in the middle of the stage, He was wearing a three piece suit, (I've seen Him in other dreams like that). He took off His coat and laid it over a chiar that was there. Then He took off His vest and shirt and laid them over the chair. He didn't speak, He just turned His back to the crowd. When He turned, He turned so that I saw His back It was literally furrowed from His left shoulder down toward His right lower back It looked like whoever scourged Him did it backhanded.
Then He walked over to me. I was on a cot. He leaned down right in my face but I could not see His facial features. He spoke to me without words and told me everything about myself. All I could do was lower my head and nod and say, "yes... yes".
Then He reached His hand into my chest and began to do something. I was laying ack on the cot and was turning my head from left to right saying, "yes, no, yes, no, yes, no..." All at once something clicked, like an audible snap inside me and I was filled with joy and began to just laugh.
Then I awoke...
A short time later I had decided I wanted to drink beer and have "fun".
The I had another dream. We lived in a small two bedroom one bath home at that time.
This is the second dream:
I was in the bathroom and an angel walked in. He was tall and He was wearing some sort of robe, I think. I don't exactly remember the clothing. He blocked my way out and would not move. I knew better than to try to force the issue. Three other angels, dressed just like him walked down the hall, into my bedroom, and went my closet. They removed maybe five or six suits of clothing that was just like what they were wearing and they took it, walked back up the hall and left. I was in front of the angel who kept me in the bathroom, with my head down saying, "no..."
I awoke.
You can bet that dream bothered me for a long time.
As I said above, about a year ago He brought me back but I still labored under that dream and under guilt. I think it was in Feburary or March of this year I was driving and praying, still laboring under it. (I had come to the point of telling Him that I was going to do my best to follow Him if I never heard His voice again and if I died at the end of my days and went to hell). I was crying out for an answer, for some encouragement from Him and it came in a flash.
I turned on the radio and R.C. Sproul was on. He was talking about Paul and hpw Paul said 'that which I would do, I don't do; and that which I would not do, that I do" then RC said that what flip side of what Paul was saying was this, "I really want to do what I don't want to do and I don't want to do what I want to do".
Then the Lord spoke to me and said, " That was you on the cot saying, "yes, no, yes, no". I began to dry and I cried for nearly three days. I could hardly go anywhere for weeping.
What set me free was this. He gave me the first dream that was of deliverance while I was walking wit hHim in repentance. He gave me the second dream that was a horror after I backslid... BUT, He interpreted the first dream for me after He brought me back.
In essence, He provided for my deliverance before I ever walked away. He cares SO much. He provided what He knew that I would need for restoration before I went and did so much harm to myself.
In my heart I knew that by interpreting the first dream when He did, it cancelled out the second dream, it supersceeded it!!
I know that this is all really personal stuff and if you are a casual reader it may not mean a lot to you but it has been the power of God in my life at a time when I really needed it. He is way more personal that you can ever explain to an unbeliever.
So, I said all that to say this: I think that salvation lies in our belief, in our faith. A childlike faith in Him. I have just found Him to be faithful to my in season and out. Whether I am true or not. He finally brought me back to Him through pain. Spinal arthritis, degenerative disc disease and narcotic pain relievers. I got to the point on the painkillers where my fleshly desires went away and He was there. I have found Him to be one who is willing and able to do whatever it takes to save. He is the good shepherd.
I will stop with this... at the end of the day, after He work's in us to humble us, so that we know who we are and we realize that we are weak and that He is everything for us, that He is not going to leave us, that after everything we do... He loves us...
belief is obedience and obedience is belief. They are the same thing but it only means something when you realize that you cannot do it and He already did it and He is strong and He is faithful and He will not let you go.
He has been faithful to my smallest little bit of faith in Him.
Julien
_____________________________
"These things I have spoken to you, so that in Me you may have peace In the world you have tribulation, but take courage; I have overcome the world."
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 12/8/2007 2:02:00 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 542
Joined: 1/15/2006
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Julien:
Thanks for a wonderful testimony its a perfect jewel to adorn the grace and mercy of God.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 12/8/2007 7:09:53 PM
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bzirk
Posts: 2690
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Where the deer and antelope play
Status: offline
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quote:
but it only means something when you realize that you cannot do it and He already did it and He is strong and He is faithful and He will not let you go.
He has been faithful to my smallest little bit of faith in Him.
Julien
Amen, Amen and Amen.
Brother, I can relate so well to your testimony.
BTW, I haven't read much of this thread either, but I still wanted to say that about your testimony.
Bless you.
_____________________________
Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1)
Great quote: I just ain't God and don't know it all. -- SonInMe1
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/8/2008 2:14:01 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2323
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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Jordan,
This is a thread dedicated to the subject.
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 5/9/2008 12:16:07 AM
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pmilst
Posts: 47
Joined: 2/22/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
Can someone point me to the best [most concise and to the point] article by MacArthur himself regarding Lordship Salvation? I have never heard of this before and ran into it from the other MacArthur thread. I'd like to see what this doctrine states in plain terms. If you know of such an article, great. If not, no worries!
I have never read the book or known of its existence, I just simply read
Romans 10: 9-13 and was convinced. The meaning is especially plain in the NIV and Amplified.
God bless you as you search the issue.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 5/9/2008 1:23:30 AM
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Ezra
Posts: 1969
Status: offline
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It would appear that this whole controversy over so-called "Lordship Salvation" is really a tempest in a teapot. MacArthur says that the call to salvation is a call to discipleship. Who can disagree with that?
He also says that while salvation (the gift of eternal life) is free, discipleship costs the disciple (it may even cost him his life). Again who can disagree with that.
The article about the two views indicates that Ryrie also believes in Lordship Salvation, except that he does not like the way MacArthur presents it.
quote:
It appears as if Ryrie believes in lordship salvation, too. But he just doesn't like the way MacArthur states it. Logically, he would have to use his own arguments against himself. Particularly his example of a deathbed conversion that doesn't allow someone to bear fruit afterward.
And his excuse that the person may bear fruit through someone else believing as a result of his conversion is not what is meant by bearing fruit. Otherwise we could say that everyone who professes Christ, regardless of his attitude toward his sin, bears fruit on the basis that someone who hears that he has professed Christ also decides to trust Christ.
One cannot be saved without believing on The LORD Jesus Christ (Acts 16:31). Not simply "Jesus". And that title makes it clear that He is Lord, therefore He must be Lord of our lives. Period.
The problem is that evangelicals (and many preachers) today have become so used to simply saying "Jesus" instead of "the Lord Jesus Christ", that the focus on His Lordship is generally lost. And MacArthur wants to restore that (as should all Bible-beliving Christians). Genuine Lordship Salvation is totally biblical.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 5/9/2008 1:30:30 AM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 5/9/2008 12:00:00 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5062
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
It would appear that this whole controversy over so-called "Lordship Salvation" is really a tempest in a teapot.
It is much bigger than a teapot.
quote:
MacArthur says that the call to salvation is a call to discipleship. Who can disagree with that?
When you actually read his statements, you should be able to see that he is very confused. Have you read his book Hard To Believe? Here are some direct quotes from him. You can make up your own mind as to his confusion.
p.6 "Anyone who wants to be a Christian has to face 3 commands: deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow Him". He stated that after noting Matt 16:24,25 and Luke 9 23-26 is the true gospel.
p.93 "Salvation for sinners cost God His own Son; it cost God's Son His life, and it'll (salvation) cost you the same thing. Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exericse. It (salvation) comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's (salvation) the fruit of actions, not intentions." If those statements don't convince you of his error, nothing will. I've underlined the key words for emphasis.
p.15 "Coming to Christ requires a price to pay, and counting its cost." It is clear that MacArthur fails to understand Matt 11:30, "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light".
p.15 "If you are going to come to Christ, you are going to have to count the cost. Have you counted the cost? Do you even understand there's a price to pay?" Clearly he fails to understand Eph 2:8, or Rom 3:24 and 6:23.
p.135 "If you are willing to lose your life for Christ's sake, you'll find eternal life in the end."
p.149 "Entrance into the kingdom requires earnest endeavor, untiring energy, and utmost exertion, because Sastan is mighty, his demons are powerful, and sin holds us fast." If that isn't clearly a works based salvation, I don't know what is.
p.159 "The gospel is hard to believe and requires denial of oneself".
In summary, there were 53 statement made by MacArthur that reflect that salvation is by human works or effort or emotions, and he actually stated the gospel correctly or quoted clear gospel verses 13 times.
So, his works based theory of the gospel outnumbered his clear statements about 4 to 1.
quote:
He also says that while salvation (the gift of eternal life) is free, discipleship costs the disciple (it may even cost him his life). Again who can disagree with that.
I do. See p.93, 15, 149 and 159 above.
quote:
The article about the two views indicates that Ryrie also believes in Lordship Salvation, except that he does not like the way MacArthur presents it.
Most likely Ryrie disagrees with MacArthur's position, not merely the way he presents it.
< Message edited by FreeGrace -- 5/9/2008 2:34:50 PM >
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 5/9/2008 9:09:26 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 542
Joined: 1/15/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
When you actually read his statements, you should be able to see that he is very confused. Have you read his book Hard To Believe? Here are some direct quotes from him. You can make up your own mind as to his confusion.
Freegrace:
I dont know if youve read "hard to believe" I know I have and there is no confusion from John on salvation. John is a calvy and he preaches the grace of God as a reformer not an arminian.
Id re-read the book before telling folks he preaching salvation by works. That is just completely false.
John spends considerable time blocking up the way of salvation when one attempts to gain it by works. John also spends time laying the groundwork for biblical salvation that contains discipleship as its core ingredient. Discipleship is not only a command its part of the good works we were created unto.
What I have seen mostly is some folks picking and chosing what verses they want to believe about salvation or discipleship and tossing the rest. If you were to insist that discipleship is a core component of salvation as it is to be understood and to be lived out in a Christian some here would cry up works salvation. The confusion is not on the part of those who insist upon discipleship, its within those who misrepresent our position and posit salvation as though discipleship is 'extra credit'.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 5/9/2008 9:45:06 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5062
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
quote:
When you actually read his statements, you should be able to see that he is very confused. Have you read his book Hard To Believe? Here are some direct quotes from him. You can make up your own mind as to his confusion.
Freegrace:
I dont know if youve read "hard to believe" I know I have and there is no confusion from John on salvation. John is a calvy and he preaches the grace of God as a reformer not an arminian.
I not only read his book, I did it very slowly and took copious notes.
quote:
Id re-read the book before telling folks he preaching salvation by works. That is just completely false.
What I posted were direct quotes from his book, including page numbers. I challenge you to look up the quotes I noted since you think what I quoted was "completely false". Apparently you didn't read his book very closely.
quote:
John spends considerable time blocking up the way of salvation when one attempts to gain it by works. John also spends time laying the groundwork for biblical salvation that contains discipleship as its core ingredient. Discipleship is not only a command its part of the good works we were created unto.
I'm not concerned with what he spends his time doing, but his book speaks for itself. What he wrote was mostly heresy.
quote:
What I have seen mostly is some folks picking and chosing what verses they want to believe about salvation or discipleship and tossing the rest.
Please take each of the quotes I provided and tell me what he was trying to say, because those were clear words of works based salvation. Even though I'm aware he denies that he teaches that. His own words have indicted him.
quote:
The confusion is not on the part of those who insist upon discipleship, its within those who misrepresent our position and posit salvation as though discipleship is 'extra credit'. John
There is no confusion as to what he wrote. Again, I challenge you to look up each quote I gave to see for yourself.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 5/9/2008 9:55:30 PM
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Ezra
Posts: 1969
Status: offline
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FG:
I have not read Hard to Believe. Perhaps I should before I make any other comments.
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
p.6 "Anyone who wants to be a Christian has to face 3 commands: deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow Him". He stated that after noting Matt 16:24,25 and Luke 9 23-26 is the true gospel.
In one sense this is true, if he is talking about the Christian life. But if MacArthur is claiming that this is how a sinner is justified, then it is false.
quote:
p.93 "Salvation for sinners cost God His own Son; it cost God's Son His life, and it'll (salvation) cost you the same thing. Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exericse. It (salvation) comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's (salvation) the fruit of actions, not intentions." If those statements don't convince you of his error, nothing will. I've underlined the key words for emphasis.
This certainly smacks of Catholic theology.
quote:
p.15 "Coming to Christ requires a price to pay, and counting its cost." It is clear that MacArthur fails to understand Matt 11:30, "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light".
Here we have two things: the cost of discipleship and the lightness of Christ's yoke. Both are true. But the cost of discipleship comes after justification. Eternal life is God's GIFT to those who believe. That's the glory of His grace.
quote:
p.15 "If you are going to come to Christ, you are going to have to count the cost. Have you counted the cost? Do you even understand there's a price to pay?" Clearly he fails to understand Eph 2:8, or Rom 3:24 and 6:23.
Perhaps, here he is trying to refute the notion of easy believism, that after we are justified, there is no cost to being sanctified. One could go along with this.
quote:
p.135 "If you are willing to lose your life for Christ's sake, you'll find eternal life in the end."
Once again, this is RCC and EOC theology, not evangelical truth. So could it be that MacArthur is confused, or leaning towards these theologies?
quote:
p.149 "Entrance into the kingdom requires earnest endeavor, untiring energy, and utmost exertion, because Sastan is mighty, his demons are powerful, and sin holds us fast." If that isn't clearly a works based salvation, I don't know what is.
I agree. This statement is not consistent with Gospel truth.
quote:
p.159 "The gospel is hard to believe and requires denial of oneself".
The only reason the Gospel is hard to believe is that human beings can hardly grasp that the gift of eternal life is free. Denial of self is a requirement for the disciple who is already saved, and knows he is saved.
Something which Ryrie does is to create confusion by making a distinction between repentance as a change of mind concerning Christ, and repentance as a turning from sins and idols to the living God. Repentance encompasses both, therefore there cannot be such a false division.
< Message edited by Ezra -- 5/9/2008 10:02:46 PM >
_____________________________
And whosoever will, let him take the Water of Life freely. Revelation 22:17
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 5/10/2008 7:58:10 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5062
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Ezra
FG:
I have not read Hard to Believe. Perhaps I should before I make any other comments.
I think you will find it rather hard to believe.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
p.6 "Anyone who wants to be a Christian has to face 3 commands: deny himself, take up his cross daily, and follow Him". He stated that after noting Matt 16:24,25 and Luke 9 23-26 is the true gospel.
In one sense this is true, if he is talking about the Christian life. But if MacArthur is claiming that this is how a sinner is justified, then it is false.
The problem with his writing is that he doesn't make it crystal clear what he means. Taken as written, the impression is that one must be obedient in lifestyle in order to be saved. But, I'll leave that conclusion to you after reading his book.
quote:
quote:
p.93 "Salvation for sinners cost God His own Son; it cost God's Son His life, and it'll (salvation) cost you the same thing. Salvation isn't the result of an intellectual exericse. It (salvation) comes from a life lived in obedience and service to Christ as revealed in the Scripture; it's (salvation) the fruit of actions, not intentions." If those statements don't convince you of his error, nothing will. I've underlined the key words for emphasis.
This certainly smacks of Catholic theology.
This is a direct quote. If this isn't works based salvation, then I don't know what is.
quote:
quote:
p.15 "Coming to Christ requires a price to pay, and counting its cost." It is clear that MacArthur fails to understand Matt 11:30, "For My yoke is easy and My burden is light".
Here we have two things: the cost of discipleship and the lightness of Christ's yoke. Both are true. But the cost of discipleship comes after justification. Eternal life is God's GIFT to those who believe. That's the glory of His grace.
You are correct, but MacArthur has plainly said that 'coming to Christ' requires a price to pay. That is human effort all the way. While he denies that he teaches works salvation, his words indict him.
quote:
quote:
p.15 "If you are going to come to Christ, you are going to have to count the cost. Have you counted the cost? Do you even understand there's a price to pay?" Clearly he fails to understand Eph 2:8, or Rom 3:24 and 6:23.
Perhaps, here he is trying to refute the notion of easy believism, that after we are justified, there is no cost to being sanctified. One could go along with this.
Not I, for believing IS easy. There is no effort involved. Jesus even made this clear when He spoke of the fact that no one can enter the kingdom of God except they be as "these little children". While MacArthur thinks this speaks of some kind of "innocence", seems to me Jesus was referring to "child-like faith" which really is easy.
I think the real issue in "easy believism" is the lack of commitment that is seen in some. I know that bothers MacArthur a ton, and it should bother all believers whenever they see it. But the answer isn't to "dress up" believing into something the Bible never describes.
quote:
quote:
p.135 "If you are willing to lose your life for Christ's sake, you'll find eternal life in the end."
Once again, this is RCC and EOC theology, not evangelical truth. So could it be that MacArthur is confused, or leaning towards these theologies?
Probably both. I recall one article against MacArthur's "Lordship Salvation" titled "Road Back to Rome" or something like that.
quote:
quote:
p.149 "Entrance into the kingdom requires earnest endeavor, untiring energy, and utmost exertion, because Sastan is mighty, his demons are powerful, and sin holds us fast." If that isn't clearly a works based salvation, I don't know what is.
I agree. This statement is not consistent with Gospel truth.
Correct. Again, even though he denies that he teaches works salvation, his own words indict him.
quote:
quote:
p.159 "The gospel is hard to believe and requires denial of oneself".
The only reason the Gospel is hard to believe is that human beings can hardly grasp that the gift of eternal life is free. Denial of self is a requirement for the disciple who is already saved, and knows he is saved.
I agree, but MacArthur insists in his book that in order to be saved, one must deny himself.
quote:
Something which Ryrie does is to create confusion by making a distinction between repentance as a change of mind concerning Christ, and repentance as a turning from sins and idols to the living God. Repentance encompasses both, therefore there cannot be such a false division.
The way I see it, the action of turning from sins/idols/etc is a human effort, or a lifestyle change. If lifestyle change is required for salvation, seems salvation IS by works, since working is required for a lifestyle change.
What seems most logical to me is that when the Bible says to repent for salvation, it speaks of a change of mind toward Christ (as well as of self), and when commanded of believers, speaks of commands against sinful lifestyles.
So, I agree with Ryrie's distinction. I think it is MacArthur who has created the confusion by making lifestyle changes a requirement for salvation. That smacks both of RCC and Judaism.
Thanks for your comments. I'll be interested in your thoughts after you read his book.
God bless.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 5/12/2008 7:06:05 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1240
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: online
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quote:
MacArthur insists in his book that in order to be saved, one must deny himself.
Jesus insisted the same in His Book (the Bible),
Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. (Matthew 16:24 NASB)
No one is saved who does not "come after" Jesus.
Jesus explained self denial in His story of the Hidden Treasure,
The kingdom of heaven is like a treasure hidden in the field, which a man found and hid again; and from joy over it he goes and sells all that he has and buys that field. (Matthew 13:44 NASB)
Self denial is not works based salvation, but rather is seeing the kingdom of heaven and the King of the kingdom correctly (spiritual understanding). When one sees the kingdom as a "treasure" he is willing to deny himself of that which this world offers. He denies himself of the temporal pleasures of this world because of the "joy over" the supreme value of Christ Jesus and His kingdom. Who would not deny himself of the cheap costume jewlery of this world for the eternal riches found in Christ Jesus alone? Only those who willingly supress the truth in unrighteousness.
We are called to count the cost. What is the cost? Giving up the mud pies of this life, for the eternal treasure of God Himself. This is no work, but is a joy.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 5/12/2008 7:11:59 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5062
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
We are called to count the cost. What is the cost? Giving up the mud pies of this life, for the eternal treasure of God Himself. This is no work, but is a joy.
Rather than respond to the whole post, I will just focus on your last paragraph. For salvation, there is NO COST TO COUNT. Rom 3:24 and 6:23 tells us the gift of eternal life is FREE. Do you understand there is a difference between FREE and COUNTING THE COST? They cannot be referring to the same thing.
As for "mud pies", whatever that means to you, whatever one "gives up" cannot save either, for that is human effort. Whether or not you agree or reject this, you have added human effort into salvation, just as MacArthur has. Shame on you both.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 5/12/2008 9:14:15 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1240
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: online
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quote:
For salvation, there is NO COST TO COUNT. Rom 3:24 and 6:23 tells us the gift of eternal life is FREE.
No one said that salvation was not free. Those that are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone will sacrifice much (if they are truly saved).
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whatever one "gives up" cannot save either, for that is human effort.
That is for sure. Giving up stuff does not save.
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Whether or not you agree or reject this, you have added human effort into salvation
No human effort has been added for salvation - it is by grace through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone. Those who are not willing to repent do not believe. Those who are not willing to follow Christ, do not believe on Him. The act of following Him is a fruit of faith. The willingness to follow Him is tied up in genuine faith.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 5/12/2008 1:34:46 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5062
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
For salvation, there is NO COST TO COUNT. Rom 3:24 and 6:23 tells us the gift of eternal life is FREE.
No one said that salvation was not free.
The Bible surely doesn't. But what does "counting the cost" mean to you, since MacArthur uses that phrase in what is required to become a Christian, which I take as "to be saved".
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Those that are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone will sacrifice much (if they are truly saved).
The problem for you is that nowhere does Scripture teach that all truly saved persons will sacrifice much. That is a presupposition only. Jesus equated believing with being saved, in Luke 8:12, and in the very next breath tells us that the second soil believed for a while and didn't produce any fruit. Your presupposition says that the second soil wasn't saved, but Jesus was telling us that some believers lose faith and not produce fruit. It is your presupposition that says otherwise.
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Whether or not you agree or reject this, you have added human effort into salvation
No human effort has been added for salvation - it is by grace through faith alone in Christ Jesus alone. Those who are not willing to repent do not believe.
Since repent means to change the mind, I equate repentance with believing.
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Those who are not willing to follow Christ, do not believe on Him. The act of following Him is a fruit of faith.
As Jesus pointed out, some believers do produce fruit and some don't.
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The willingness to follow Him is tied up in genuine faith.
The problem for you is that no definition of faith includes change of lifestyle.
Any change in lifestyle required for being truly saved is a works based salvation, whether MacArthur disagrees or not.
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 5/12/2008 2:18:12 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1240
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: online
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quote:
But what does "counting the cost" mean to you, since MacArthur uses that phrase in what is required to become a Christian, which I take as "to be saved".
Counting the cost is not works . . . it is just what it is: considering that which believing entails (which includes repentance).
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As Jesus pointed out, some believers do produce fruit and some don't.
This is your interpretation of the Parable of the Sower and the Four Soils (of which I am no longer interested). 1 John makes it clear that if you have no fruit, you know not God.
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The problem for you is that no definition of faith includes change of lifestyle.
No problem for me. I never have thought that lifestyle change is included in the definition of faith.
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Any change in lifestyle required for being truly saved is a works based salvation, whether MacArthur disagrees or not.
Agreed. Life style change or behavior modification does not save anyone. I (or John MacArthur – based upon what I have read) would agree with this. On the other hand, if one does not have any fruit of repentance, this person has never believed (repented).
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 5/12/2008 4:47:16 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2323
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
MacArthur insists in his book that in order to be saved, one must deny himself.
Jesus insisted the same in His Book (the Bible),
Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. (Matthew 16:24 NASB)
No one is saved who does not "come after" Jesus.
I guess that would depend upon whether or not you believe Jesus giving the conditions for discipleship or the conditions for salvation.
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Self denial is not works based salvation, but rather is seeing the kingdom of heaven and the King of the kingdom correctly (spiritual understanding). When one sees the kingdom as a "treasure" he is willing to deny himself of that which this world offers. He denies himself of the temporal pleasures of this world because of the "joy over" the supreme value of Christ Jesus and....
So you don't believe in "Sola Fide."
quote:
Counting the cost is not works . . . it is just what it is: considering that which believing entails (which includes repentance).
So "believe" doesn't merely mean to "believe"?
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 5/12/2008 10:04:14 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Why is it when we talk to God we're said to be praying -
but when God talks to us, we're schizophrenic.----Lily Tomlin
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RE: Lordship salvation and no other - 5/12/2008 9:10:06 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5062
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
But what does "counting the cost" mean to you, since MacArthur uses that phrase in what is required to become a Christian, which I take as "to be saved".
Counting the cost is not works . . . it is just what it is: considering that which believing entails (which includes repentance).
Me thinks you speaks double speak. Of course it "is what it is", but what it "is", is counting the COST. And "cost" ain't cheap! If something "costs" you, you must "pay" for it. The Bible says that Christ paid the penalty completely. So, there is NO COST to us. What absolutely DOES cost us is becoming a committed disciple. But that is NOT for salvation, but for total obedience to our Lord. MacArthur hasn't figured that out yet.
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As Jesus pointed out, some believers do produce fruit and some don't.
This is your interpretation of the Parable of the Sower and the Four Soils (of which I am no longer interested).
Nonsense. It is only your presupposition that causes you to twist Jesus' words into saying that the second soil didn't believe "savingly".
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1 John makes it clear that if you have no fruit, you know not God.
Yes it does. And it is a FACT that some believers do not know God in the sense that John uses. Since Jesus spoke of some believers whose faith fails and they don't produce fruit, they would be ones who don't know God.
Here's an example that hopefully will help. After a long marriage, the couple divorces, and it was said of the husband, "he didn't know his wife very well." Don't get hung up on the example of divorce, since God won't divorce us and we are His children forever, but the idea that a couple can live together for a long time yet one of the spouses doesn't really know the other one. That's what John is saying.
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Any change in lifestyle required for being truly saved is a works based salvation, whether MacArthur disagrees or not.
Agreed. Life style change or behavior modification does not save anyone. I (or John MacArthur – based upon what I have read) would agree with this. On the other hand, if one does not have any fruit of repentance, this person has never believed (repented).
Have you read his book Hard To Believe? Just scroll up to some of the quotes I lifted directly off the pages. I even included the page numbers so anyone can check it out for themselves.
If you find the quotes, and think they do not support a works based salvation, then you are as confused as MacArthur.
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/13/2008 3:33:17 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1240
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
quote:
MacArthur insists in his book that in order to be saved, one must deny himself.
Jesus insisted the same in His Book (the Bible),
Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone wishes to come after Me, he must deny himself, and take up his cross and follow Me. (Matthew 16:24 NASB)
No one is saved who does not "come after" Jesus.
I guess that would depend upon whether or not you believe Jesus giving the conditions for discipleship or the conditions for salvation.
Those who have no desire to "come after" Jesus obviously do not believe on Him. Those who do believe on Him will desire to follow Him.
quote:
quote:
Self denial is not works based salvation, but rather is seeing the kingdom of heaven and the King of the kingdom correctly (spiritual understanding). When one sees the kingdom as a "treasure" he is willing to deny himself of that which this world offers. He denies himself of the temporal pleasures of this world because of the "joy over" the supreme value of Christ Jesus and....
So you don't believe in "Sola Fide."
You are not correct in that assumption. A person who genuinely believes something is convinced that it is true; not merely giving some kind of acknowledgement of it. A person acts on that which he genuinely believes.
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quote:
Counting the cost is not works . . . it is just what it is: considering that which believing entails (which includes repentance).
So "believe" doesn't mean to merely mean "believe"?
Believe me, I believe that “believe” means believe. Counting the cost is considering the effects that genuine believing has on the genuine believer.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/13/2008 4:50:12 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2323
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
Status: offline
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From the interchange with SureHope
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quote:
I guess that would depend upon whether or not you believe Jesus giving the conditions for discipleship or the conditions for salvation.
Those who have no desire to "come after" Jesus obviously do not believe on Him. Those who do believe on Him will desire to follow Him.
No, it's not obvious.
Luke 8:13 (ESV)
"And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away."
Notice that it doesn't say "they don't believe."
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So you don't believe in "Sola Fide."
You are not correct in that a | | |
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