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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/14/2008 12:57:54 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 3557
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A free grace that costs us everything.
Sounds about right to me. Hebraic Logic.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/14/2008 1:52:01 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1366
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
You have redefined the "believe" which was previously mentioned as not honest saving faith.
I have not "redefined" faith. I may disagree with your definition, but have not redefined what is generally accepted. Saving faith includes the mind, the affections and the will; not only mental assent. Those who genuinely believe agree with who Christ is - in their mind, their affections and their will. This faith in Christ will always been seen in some degree of fruit bearing; it will always be seen in some degree of willing denial of self and willing submission.
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IOW, it is believing that is not really believing.
That is correct. And this is based upon the whole of the parable.
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Because they don't have perseverance, you have basically said they don't really believe in the first place.
It is because they did not "understand" or "receive the word with an honest and good heart." This is the reason I say that they did not genuinely believe. And it is because of this they did not persevere.
The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. (1Co 2:14 ESV emphasis added)
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No, it is not believing + denying yourself that saves. Rather, saving faith is a belief in the Lord Jesus Christ that in and of itself brings willing denial of self.
So the condition for salvation is believing and not actually denying oneself?
The condition for salvation is faith alone. True faith will always deny self and follow Christ, otherwise it is not true faith. In other words, you cannot separate genuine faith in the Lordship of Christ from willingly denying yourself in order to submit to His Lordship. Everyone acts upon what they genuinely believe.
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I agree, and the precondition for salvation is faith alone.
If the precondition is faith alone, then denying oneself is not a condition. Otherwise, you have 2 conditions.
Denying oneself is not a separate condition from faith, but those who do not want to deny themselves never have seen Christ Jesus and His gospel through the eye of saving faith.
When one sees the rightness and desirability of God in His holiness and therefore sees how sin dishonors God and the repugnancy of it; this person will willingly deny self and submit to the Lordship of Christ.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/14/2008 2:50:17 PM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 498
Joined: 1/15/2006
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quote:
When one sees the rightness and desirability of God in His holiness and therefore sees how sin dishonors God and the repugnancy of it; this person will willingly deny self and submit to the Lordship of Christ.
Surehope:
What a great statement, this encapsulates salvation/discipleship on one sentence.
What I see over and over again is those who fight against "Lordship Salvation" fight against preaching all the message of salvation. Its ok to preach "saved by grace" but its not ok to preach "Saved by grace in order to walk a sanctified and pure life, repentant of sin and dedicated to honoring Jesus Christ".
As soon as you repent, honor Jesus, seek sanctification they claim you are loading works on it. That is pure nonsense.
The salvation of God is never disconnected from discipleship. Discipleship is never disconnected from the grace of God that placed the believer into the path of righteousness to begin with.
The perversion of grace without discipleship is saying a man can build his house upon the sand, a man can bear bad fruit, a man can have his seed wither or plucked up, or begin to plow looking backwards, following Jesus with no cross.
Crossless Christianity, grace without the grace-work in the heart, grace without the grace-giftings manifest.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/14/2008 6:48:21 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 2155
Joined: 4/11/2005
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quote:
I may disagree with your definition, but have not redefined what is generally accepted.
Really? Generally accepted from where? I'd like to know where you found it. From a lexicon or from Lordship salvation advocates? Lordship salvation advocates don't get to redefine faith to fit the Lordship Salv. doctrine any more than I do.
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Saving faith includes the mind, the affections and the will; not only mental assent. Those who genuinely believe agree with who Christ is - in their mind, their affections and their will. This faith in Christ will always been seen in some degree of fruit bearing; it will always be seen in some degree of willing denial of self and willing submission.
Good. Me too. BTW, just so you know. My position is not one of "mental assent."
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IOW, it is believing that is not really believing.
That is correct. And this is based upon the whole of the parable.
Semantic gymnastics. It's like saying light is not light and darkness is not darkess.
In logic, "A" cannot be "non-A."
quote:
It is because they did not "understand" or "receive the word with an honest and good heart." This is the reason I say that they did not genuinely believe. And it is because of this they did not persevere.
It might be the reason they didn't persevere but it does not follow that they didn't believe. It says they DID believe. You keep relegating the first group as not having real faith. That's really arbitrary on your part. I'd calling it "stacking the deck." IOW, you have redefined their faith as "not faith" but made another condition so that faith + denying oneself is "real faith." But "faith alone" becomes merely "mental assent."
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The condition for salvation is faith alone. True faith will always deny self and follow Christ, otherwise it is not true faith. In other words, you cannot separate genuine faith in the Lordship of Christ from willingly denying yourself in order to submit to His Lordship. Everyone acts upon what they genuinely believe.
Can you guarantee that if you preach your version of Lordship salvation that the person will persevere?
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If the precondition is faith alone, then denying oneself is not a condition. Otherwise, you have 2 conditions.
Denying oneself is not a separate condition from faith, but those who do not want to deny themselves never have seen Christ Jesus and His gospel through the eye of saving faith.
When one sees the rightness and desirability of God in His holiness and therefore sees how sin dishonors God and the repugnancy of it; this person will willingly deny self and submit to the Lordship of Christ.
Question 1: Is "denying oneself" an internal act or an external act?
Question 2: Is "denying oneself" something we do everyday or something we do only once?
Question 3: Can anyone ever say "I am secure in my salvation, I know it and I know certainly that I can never be lost again"?
< Message edited by GrahamCracker -- 5/15/2008 2:22:00 PM >
_____________________________
Larry
Granddaughter, Skyler Lynn was born July 1, 2008.
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/14/2008 9:04:42 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5662
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
quote:
When one sees the rightness and desirability of God in His holiness and therefore sees how sin dishonors God and the repugnancy of it; this person will willingly deny self and submit to the Lordship of Christ.
Surehope:
What a great statement, this encapsulates salvation/discipleship on one sentence.
What I see over and over again is those who fight against "Lordship Salvation" fight against preaching all the message of salvation. Its ok to preach "saved by grace" but its not ok to preach "Saved by grace in order to walk a sanctified and pure life, repentant of sin and dedicated to honoring Jesus Christ".
That is exactly what the Bible teaches, yet that is not what MacArthur teaches. Just read his book Hard To Believe. It's full of works salvation.
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As soon as you repent, honor Jesus, seek sanctification they claim you are loading works on it. That is pure nonsense.
Whoever "they" are seem to be quite ignorant of the Bible.
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The salvation of God is never disconnected from discipleship. Discipleship is never disconnected from the grace of God that placed the believer into the path of righteousness to begin with.
While they aren't disconnected, one is not saved by discipleship. By that definition, Mother Theresa should be in heaven, but even MacArthur noted in his book HTB that she is in hell today based on what he read in a Bible she signed for a young man when MacArthur was in India and visited with her.
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The perversion of grace without discipleship is saying a man can build his house upon the sand, a man can bear bad fruit, a man can have his seed wither or plucked up, or begin to plow looking backwards, following Jesus with no cross.
Crossless Christianity, grace without the grace-work in the heart, grace without the grace-giftings manifest. [/qutoe]
I totally agree with this. The problem and error is to "front load" the gospel with requirements of discipleship for salvation, which the Bible doesn't teach.
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/15/2008 1:34:04 AM
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Gloryandgrace
Posts: 498
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Freegrace:
Discipleship does not save, that is a fact. But discipleship is preached along with salvation because Jesus doesnt invite people to "gain salvation" alone disconnected from Jesus Himself.
Jesus invites men to discipleship, He being Lord and King over their lives. This is preached before and after salvation.
Jesus wanted the crowds to know that the Salvation of God was seen in a life devoted to Christ Himself. Those that wanted salvation must know that carrying a cross in ones life was part of being a disciple.
So while I heartily agree that discipleship does not save, one cannot be saved without being a disciple either.
Jesus said we must abide in the vine, we know that abiding is not going to earn us salvation but who would dare preach salvation without abiding? Who would dare preach salvation without carrying the cross? Who would dare preach salvation without insisting as Jesus did they build their house upon the rock by obedience to Jesus words?
What does salvation look like? its a cross carrying, obedient lifestyle in honor to Jesus Christ.
Jesus did not preach "free grace" (no pun intended on your screen name) disconnected from a life that must be devoted to Jesus Christ.
Can we preach the gospel to the unsaved naming and proclaiming the cross-carrying, no looking back forsaking all discipleship? Absolutely. WE proclaim it because we are teaching and training our hearers that a person who is granted salvation is called to a life after the manner Jesus prescribed.
Salvation by God is a miracle work of God birthing us and regenerating us by the Holy Ghost.
But salvation-grace is not left to mere inner working; Jesus disciples us, trains us, chastens us, molds us once that great grace-work of regeneration is done.
Everyone wants salvation, but they dont want Jesus, they dont want to die to themselves, carry a cross or trust God implicitly. The crowds that listened to Jesus, they would believe on him that he was a miracle worker, a man sent from God or a great prophet. But even with that belief Jesus said to Nicodemus "ye must be born again". His belief was not deep enough, his connection to Christ was not great enough to enable him to see the kingdom of God.
John M and myself preach this gospel so that men will dispair of trusting in themselves. So that they will see all roads are blocked but one, that road is humbling oneself to call upon Christ to save them despite the fact they have nothing to offer. The requirement to be a disciple is impossible to everyone. No one can live the kind of life Jesus requires unless that man has come to the end of himself. We do not front-load the gospel with discipleship requirements to obtain salvation, we preach discipleship because once God has done his salvic work in the heart the man knows whats expected of a disciple that has been forgiven and received a heart of flesh and has the commands of God written on it.
The great grace of God reveals that a life devoted to Jesus Christ is possible once Jesus himself has birthed him and indwelt him by the Spirit.
John
_____________________________
Isa 42:6 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles.....
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/15/2008 6:42:14 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1366
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker
quote:
I may disagree with your definition, but have not redefined what is generally accepted.
Really? Generally accepted from where? I'd like to know where you found it. From a lexicon or from Lordship salvation advocates? Lordship salvation advocates don't get to redefine faith to fit the Lordship Salv. doctrine any more than I do.
You appear to disagree with my partial definition of faith, but then . . .
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quote:
Saving faith includes the mind, the affections and the will; not only mental assent. Those who genuinely believe agree with who Christ is - in their mind, their affections and their will. This faith in Christ will always been seen in some degree of fruit bearing; it will always be seen in some degree of willing denial of self and willing submission.
Good. Me too. BTW, just so you know. My position is not one of "mental assent."
. . . you appear to agree with my partial definition of faith. Which is it?
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quote:
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IOW, it is believing that is not really believing.
That is correct. And this is based upon the whole of the parable.
Semantic gymnastics. It's like saying light is not light and darkness is not darkess.
In logic, "A" cannot be "non-A."
I understand your argument, but strongly disagree. Words need to be understood in their context. You believe that the second soil's belief is saving even though it did not receive the word with an honest and good heart and did not understand. I on the other hand believe the description of the fourth soil makes the clear distinction between who genuinely believed and who did not.
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quote:
It is because they did not "understand" or "receive the word with an honest and good heart." This is the reason I say that they did not genuinely believe. And it is because of this they did not persevere.
It might be the reason they didn't persevere but it does not follow that they didn't believe. It says they DID believe. You keep relegating the first group as not having real faith. That's really arbitrary on your part. I'd calling it "stacking the deck."
Again, I have not redefined anything. It is not arbitrary to say what the Lord Jesus said regarding the fourth soil is the distinctive mark of genuine belief. Saving faith, among other things, is based upon understanding. If you don't understand the things of the Spirit of God you have not and cannot accept the Gospel - that is, until you understand.
Add to that the fact that the fourth soil is the only soil that received the word with an "honest and good heart," I think you are redefining the word "arbitrary."
quote:
IOW, you have redefined their faith as "not faith" but made another condition so that faith + denying oneself is "real faith." But "faith alone" becomes merely "mental assent."
Your assumption is that "their faith" was true faith even though they did not receive the word with an honest and good heart and even though they did not understand. So it is not me who is redefining anything.
I will repeat that which you seemingly ignore. Denying oneself is not an addition to faith. One denies himself in the internal act of faith. You continue to try to falsely epitomize my stance as being faith + denying self = salvation which I have clearly shown I do not believe. The mere fact that a person puts his trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and His redeeming work is a denial of self.
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quote:
The condition for salvation is faith alone. True faith will always deny self and follow Christ, otherwise it is not true faith. In other words, you cannot separate genuine faith in the Lordship of Christ from willingly denying yourself in order to submit to His Lordship. Everyone acts upon what they genuinely believe.
Can you guarantee that if you preach your version of Lordship salvation that the person will persevere?
That is God's business, not mine. It is God who is at work within the genuine believer both to will and do of His good pleasure (Phil 2:13). It is God who starts the work and will complete it (Phil 1:6). It is God who is well able to keep the genuine believer from falling (Jude 24).
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If the precondition is faith alone, then denying oneself is not a condition. Otherwise, you have 2 conditions.
Denying oneself is not a separate condition from faith, but those who do not want to deny themselves never have seen Christ Jesus and His gospel through the eye of saving faith.
When one sees the rightness and desirability of God in His holiness and therefore sees how sin dishonors God and the repugnancy of it; this person will willingly deny self and submit to the Lordship of Christ.
Question 1: Is "denying oneself" an internal act or an external act?
Question 2: Is "denying oneself" something we do everyday or something we do only once?
Question 3: Can anyone ever say "I am secure in my salvation, I know it and I know certainly that I can never be lost again"?
Answer 1: Both. It is an internal act that will be seen in external actions.
Answer 2: Both. It is something that initially happens when we see and agree with the truth about God and thus see the truth about ourselves. It is something that a genuine believer will continue to do because he sees and agrees with the truth about God and self.
Answer 3: Yes.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/15/2008 7:16:36 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1366
Joined: 3/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
Freegrace:
Discipleship does not save, that is a fact. But discipleship is preached along with salvation because Jesus doesnt invite people to "gain salvation" alone disconnected from Jesus Himself. . . .
Everyone wants salvation, but they dont want Jesus . . .
John,
I really appreciate the whole of your post, but have highlighted above one of the things that struck me from it. I think many separate salvation from the God/Man Jesus Christ the Lord. Many separate the propositions of truth with the Man who is the Truth. You are right, many want salvation, but not the Lord Jesus; they want forgiven sins and a clear conscience, but don't love the Lord Jesus. If they did love Him they would willingly deny themselves. No one who does not love the Lord Jesus will live with Him in heaven. It is those with saving faith who love the Lord.
You cannot separate the two: propositions of truth with the God who is the Truth. When one genuinely believes upon the Lord Jesus he is accepting Him, trusting Him, agreeing with Him, and thus willingly submitting to Him. And this, of course, is with joy.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/15/2008 7:33:51 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3557
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
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quote:
While they aren't disconnected, one is not saved by discipleship. But which is the goal? Salvation should not be the goal, the end result of discipleship (i.e. christ likeness) should be. Salvation is just the first step. This argument only has validity as long as we look at salvation as the end goal and not a step on the road to being like HIM.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/15/2008 2:51:23 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5662
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
Freegrace:
Discipleship does not save, that is a fact. But discipleship is preached along with salvation because Jesus doesnt invite people to "gain salvation" alone disconnected from Jesus Himself.
Jesus invites men to discipleship, He being Lord and King over their lives. This is preached before and after salvation.
To preach discipleship for salvation, as MacArthur does is wrong.
quote:
So while I heartily agree that discipleship does not save, one cannot be saved without being a disciple either.
The bible contradicts your view. Jesus clearly and plainly equated believing with being saved in Luke 8:12. In the very next breath and verse, He said the second soil believed for a while and didn't produce fruit. They were saved, but failed to be disciples. The Bible doesn't ignore it or down play it, but it is a fact. But faith in Christ saves, even if that faith fails.
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Jesus said we must abide in the vine, we know that abiding is not going to earn us salvation
Then why include it in a salvation message? It's misleading and wrong.
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but who would dare preach salvation without abiding?
Those who know the Bible. The place to preach abiding is only for believers. Otherwise, you simply confuse everyone.
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What does salvation look like? its a cross carrying, obedient lifestyle in honor to Jesus Christ. Jesus did not preach "free grace" (no pun intended on your screen name) disconnected from a life that must be devoted to Jesus Christ.
The Bible preaches free grace. Just read Rom 3:24, 6:23 and Rom 5:18-21. Salvation is free. Discipleship is not free but very costly. The difference is real and must be maintained. They "ain't" the same, nor equivalent, as MacArthur clearly emphasizes.
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Can we preach the gospel to the unsaved naming and proclaiming the cross-carrying, no looking back forsaking all discipleship? Absolutely. WE proclaim it because we are teaching and training our hearers that a person who is granted salvation is called to a life after the manner Jesus prescribed.
Not for the unbeliever, or you end up with the crowd in Matt 7;21-23 who recognized the Lordship of Jesus, but put all their "faith" in their lifestyle of works. 
quote:
Everyone wants salvation, but they dont want Jesus
If they don't want Jesus, then they won't believe in Him and won't get salvation, but all the religions of the world "preach" salvation. Of course, none of them obtain it, per John 14:6.
quote:
they dont want to die to themselves, carry a cross or trust God implicitly. The crowds that listened to Jesus, they would believe on him that he was a miracle worker, a man sent from God or a great prophet. But even with that belief Jesus said to Nicodemus "ye must be born again". His belief was not deep enough, his connection to Christ was not great enough to enable him to see the kingdom of God.
The "belief" you speak of here isn't saving faith, btw. Are you aware of that. Faith in Christ is trusting in His work on the cross to save you.
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John M and myself preach this gospel so that men will dispair of trusting in themselves.
I'm of the free grace perspective, and yet I do not trust in myself. So other than our theologies, what is the difference?
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So that they will see all roads are blocked but one, that road is humbling oneself to call upon Christ to save them despite the fact they have nothing to offer.
That's true, and has nothing to do with being a disciple.
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The requirement to be a disciple is impossible to everyone. No one can live the kind of life Jesus requires unless that man has come to the end of himself.
Since you have already admitted discipleship cannot save, why include it in a salvation message, other than to mislead and confuse people, just like the crowd in Matt 7:21-23 were.
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We do not front-load the gospel with discipleship requirements to obtain salvation
I strongly disagree, because MacArthur has done exactly that in his book Hard To Believe.
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/15/2008 3:16:10 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 3557
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
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There is a big difference between requiring someone to be a disciple in order to be saved and telling them up front that after you get saved this is what you have waiting for you (discipleship).
We do a disservice if we do not do the latter.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/15/2008 5:26:11 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 241
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
Salvation by God is a miracle work of God birthing us and regenerating us by the Holy Ghost.
But salvation-grace is not left to mere inner working; Jesus disciples us, trains us, chastens us, molds us once that great grace-work of regeneration is done.
That is a very beautiful post GG. I loved this part of it.
I have a question for either you or Surehope. Some on here seem to indicate that Lordship Salvation is a relatively new teaching. I haven't read "Hard to Believe" or "The gospel according to Jesus" but it seems to me that Lordship Salvation is just the P in TULIP wich has been taught through out church history. Is there a difference between them?
I read a lot of older writings like Spurgeon or Bunyan and this debate doesn't seem to be anything new. I think God has just used John M. to expose how dark and twisted the gospel presentation of easy believism has gotten.
Anyway,I plan to read Hard to Believe soon, Lord willing.
I would be willing to bet the same group of people that hate "Hard to Believe" and accuse him of works based salvation would say the same of Bunyan if they read "The strait gate or great difficulty going to heaven".
_____________________________
In the Red Sea of His own blood, our Redeemer has
drowned the Pharaoh of our sins C H Spurgeon
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/15/2008 7:08:20 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5662
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
There is a big difference between requiring someone to be a disciple in order to be saved and telling them up front that after you get saved this is what you have waiting for you (discipleship).
We do a disservice if we do not do the latter.
I fully agree, but that is not what MacArthur does. He plainly says that to get into heaven you have to count the cost. That is clearly wrong. He should know better.
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/15/2008 7:10:47 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5662
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
Anyway,I plan to read Hard to Believe soon, Lord willing.
Please check out my post #333 and see if I misquoted MacArthur at all. Thanks.
quote:
I would be willing to bet the same group of people that hate "Hard to Believe" and accuse him of works based salvation would say the same of Bunyan if they read "The strait gate or great difficulty going to heaven".
If he lines up with MacArthur's view, what is there to like?
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/15/2008 7:18:39 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 241
Joined: 2/12/2008
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quote:
John,
I really appreciate the whole of your post, but have highlighted above one of the things that struck me from it. I think many separate salvation from the God/Man Jesus Christ the Lord. Many separate the propositions of truth with the Man who is the Truth. You are right, many want salvation, but not the Lord Jesus; they want forgiven sins and a clear conscience, but don't love the Lord Jesus. If they did love Him they would willingly deny themselves. No one who does not love the Lord Jesus will live with Him in heaven. It is those with saving faith who love the Lord.
You cannot separate the two: propositions of truth with the God who is the Truth. When one genuinely believes upon the Lord Jesus he is accepting Him, trusting Him, agreeing with Him, and thus willingly submitting to Him. And this, of course, is with joy.
Blessings,
SH
Good post SH. You are right. There are so many that take Jesus as just a means to escape hell. I believe that real Christians will love Jesus and hate sin even if there were no hell to shun.
< Message edited by tdd1975 -- 5/15/2008 7:24:42 PM >
_____________________________
In the Red Sea of His own blood, our Redeemer has
drowned the Pharaoh of our sins C H Spurgeon
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/16/2008 6:57:04 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1366
Joined: 3/11/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
There is a big difference between requiring someone to be a disciple in order to be saved and telling them up front that after you get saved this is what you have waiting for you (discipleship).
We do a disservice if we do not do the latter.
What is "requiring someone to be a disciple" mean to you?
Are you saying that after someone is saved they have discipleship waiting for them?
If that is so, what does it mean that they have discipleship waiting for them?
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/16/2008 7:01:42 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 5662
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
There is a big difference between requiring someone to be a disciple in order to be saved and telling them up front that after you get saved this is what you have waiting for you (discipleship).
We do a disservice if we do not do the latter.
What is "requiring someone to be a disciple" mean to you?
Are you saying that after someone is saved they have discipleship waiting for them?
If that is so, what does it mean that they have discipleship waiting for them?
I don't know what you mean by "waiting for them", but I do know this: Jesus told those who believed in Him to count the cost before becoming a disciple. What does that mean to you.
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/16/2008 7:41:30 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1366
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
Salvation by God is a miracle work of God birthing us and regenerating us by the Holy Ghost.
But salvation-grace is not left to mere inner working; Jesus disciples us, trains us, chastens us, molds us once that great grace-work of regeneration is done.
That is a very beautiful post GG. I loved this part of it.
I have a question for either you or Surehope. Some on here seem to indicate that Lordship Salvation is a relatively new teaching. I haven't read "Hard to Believe" or "The gospel according to Jesus" but it seems to me that Lordship Salvation is just the P in TULIP wich has been taught through out church history. Is there a difference between them?
I read a lot of older writings like Spurgeon or Bunyan and this debate doesn't seem to be anything new. I think God has just used John M. to expose how dark and twisted the gospel presentation of easy believism has gotten.
Anyway,I plan to read Hard to Believe soon, Lord willing.
I would be willing to bet the same group of people that hate "Hard to Believe" and accuse him of works based salvation would say the same of Bunyan if they read "The strait gate or great difficulty going to heaven".
Yes, I think you see it correctly. There is no difference between the arguments for easy believism today as was happening in centuries past. The phrase "Lordship Salvation" was coined by those who think that salvation comes by believing a mere proposition about Jesus and not actually believing upon the Lord Jesus Christ Himself - who is the Lord. This phrase is supposed to be a derogatory title against those who proclaim Jesus as the Lord and who proclaim that those who desire salvation must submit to Him and follow Him as the Lord (kind of like the Rich Young Ruler didn’t do and thus went away sad).
The attempt is to separate the Lordship of Christ from the saving message of the Gospel; as if to say - you can receive Jesus as Savior now and later choose to receive Him as Lord.
The accusation is made that those who say that saving faith includes the Lordship of Christ are adding works to the requirement for salvation: faith + the Lordship of Christ = salvation.
But the fact is, faith includes recognizing and willingly agreeing with the Lordship of Christ.
Error and the arguments to defend them do not seem to change over time; it is just the titles used to disprove the truth, such as “Lordship Salvation,” that change.
< Message edited by SureHope -- 5/16/2008 9:17:34 AM >
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/16/2008 8:59:14 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1366
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: DaveW
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While they aren't disconnected, one is not saved by discipleship. But which is the goal? Salvation should not be the goal, the end result of discipleship (i.e. christ likeness) should be. Salvation is just the first step. This argument only has validity as long as we look at salvation as the end goal and not a step on the road to being like HIM.
This thinking, in my mind, is the problem.
Salvation is not the goal, neither is discipleship.
The goal is knowing, enjoying and thus glorifiying God forever. When this is understood all else falls into place.
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-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/16/2008 9:08:55 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1366
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
There is a big difference between requiring someone to be a disciple in order to be saved and telling them up front that after you get saved this is what you have waiting for you (discipleship).
We do a disservice if we do not do the latter.
What is "requiring someone to be a disciple" mean to you?
Are you saying that after someone is saved they have discipleship waiting for them?
If that is so, what does it mean that they have discipleship waiting for them?
I don't know what you mean by "waiting for them", but I do know this: Jesus told those who believed in Him to count the cost before becoming a disciple. What does that mean to you.
Jesus was speaking to the masses in Luke 14:25-35.
Now large crowds were going along with Him; and He turned and said to them, (Luke 14:25 NASB95)
To say that all these who were a part of the "large crowds" were believers is merely presumption. Many physically went along with the Lord Jesus, but not all believed upon Him.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Lordship salvation's biblical position - 5/16/2008 11:54:09 AM
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DaveW
Posts: 3557
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
What is "requiring someone to be a disciple" mean to you? It means that once someone becomes a believer under the New Covenant, the Lord will immediatly start to grow them up. This is a rough and invasive process.
Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loves, he chastens, and scourges** every son whom he receives.
** μαστιγόω mastigoō To scourge - i.e. to rip the flesh off with a whip. quote:
Are you saying that after someone is saved they have discipleship waiting for them? Absolutely. And if they don't:
Heb 12:8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons.
< Message edited by DaveW -- 5/16/2008 12:12:53 PM >
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