RE: Lordship salvation and no other (Full Version)

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Aphobos -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/28/2007 3:16:08 PM)

Excellent post, Ezra. Well said.

~Aphobos



HisbyHischoice -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/28/2007 4:17:45 PM)

Exactly Ezra.
You can't call him Lord without submitting to His authority.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

Our proclaiming Christ as Lord in our presentation of the Gospel should not include an examination of man’s works.



When the Gospel is preached there are three groups of people who hear it: (1) the truly lost, (2) the truly saved and (3) the ones who think they are saved but really are not -- they are mere professors.

Therefore on the one hand the preacher must proclaim that salvation is purely by God's grace through faith in Christ and His perfect finished work of redemption.

On the other hand, the preacher must also point out that those of you who think you are saved must know for a fact that you are saved, and one of the evidences of salvation is good works (as James points out). Therfore examine yourselves. This message is to the professors.

The ones who are truly saved simply rest in the Lord and His gracious gift of etenral life. But they also conform their lives to the Word of God, and therefore need not become neurotic about their salvation. Eternal life is a gift. Being a disciple has a price. Therefore they willingly take up their cross. And thus indicate that Christ is both their Lord and Savior.



GrahamCracker -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/28/2007 5:00:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aphobos

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker

Often the argument goes something like the following. We are saved by grace through faith--and are Christians. All those who become Christians obey. If someone does not obey they are not truly Christians.


I would never use such an argument, nor would MacArthur. What we would both agree upon is that a lack of works MAY BE an indication that a person isn't saved. That is all. Moreover, the only person qualified to judge in the matter (apart from God) is the person whose works are lacking. We can't see into a person's heart. Not to mix threads, but this is precisely the issue in James 2. Faith is demonstrated by action; inaction suggests (but does not prove) a lack of faith.....

~Aphobos


I said that I did not want to misrepresent MacArthur and I mean that sincerely. But I cannot quote him at length due to the length of the paragraph from which I quote. From his book GAJ (The Gospel According to Jesus), pages 174-175.

"Clearly, the biblical concept of faith is inseparable from obedience...obedience is the inevitable manifestation of true faith...To Paul, their disobedience proved their unbelief. Their actions denied God more loudly than their words proclaimed Him..."



Ezra -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/29/2007 3:21:02 AM)

quote:

"Clearly, the biblical concept of faith is inseparable from obedience...obedience is the inevitable manifestation of true faith...To Paul, their disobedience proved their unbelief. Their actions denied God more loudly than their words proclaimed Him..."


Since this is solidly rooted and grounded in Scripture, what's the problem? Believe it!



crankius -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/29/2007 2:46:19 PM)

Let me be clear:

1. Christ is Lord
2. Christ is authoritative
3. Poor preaching of the gospel is unacceptable
4. A follower of Christ becomes filled with the Spirit and therefore becomes a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ.

So please, Lordship Salvation folks, don’t jump to false assumptions regarding those of us who have Biblical reservations about the implications of extreme lordship salvation theology.


Ezra,

I think you would be hard-pressed to find where we are to tell believers to question their salvation/look to their own works as part of the presentation of the Gospel Message each time it is presented. The Gospel Message is Christ crucified. The Gospel Message is and always has been and must always be centered on Christ, and an examination of man’s works (other than their status as filthy rags) is not central to that Gospel message.

Lordship Salvation is a reactionary theology to those who preach a very poor version of the Gospel. The problem with reactionary theology is it often goes too far in over-correction.

In teaching believers the passages about examining themselves (which certainly must be done, as all of scripture is God-breathed and profitable), we also cannot neglect all the passages about not having fear for our salvation as believers, and we also cannot make being a believer in Christ a heavy burden.



crankius -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/29/2007 3:39:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisbyHischoice

Would you rather people doubt once in awhile, or have false assurance? We are told to examine ourselves.


You bring up an interesting question. Our job is to preach the gospel message correctly. We are to give the good seed, and even to give good water. However, we are not responsible for giving the growth, and we are not responsible for giving ears that hear and eyes that see.

All we can do is keep preaching the correct Word of God. God will be faithful to finish the work He starts in any individual, and the Holy Spirit indwells in believers and urges them to obey the Spirit.

IF I am preaching the gospel correctly and the entirety of scripture, I don't have to worry myself over false converts. According to the parable of the seed, I should expect that the seed will not be accepted by all, and that some will at first think it's great but will not take the seed to heart for a lifetime. In addition, there will be tares among the wheat.



crankius -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/29/2007 4:34:50 PM)

Has anyone read In Defense of the Gospel—Biblical Answers to Lordship Salvation by Lou Martuneac?

Edit to add: Here is a link to Lou Martuneac's site and an interesting short article, Is Lordship Salvation an "Exchange?" .



Ezra -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/29/2007 5:30:50 PM)

quote:

The Gospel Message is Christ crucified.


You see. There's your incomplete Gospel, which omits Christ as both Lord and Savior.

The Gospel Message is Christ crucified, buried, and resurrected (1 Cor. 15:1-4), thus establishing Him as both Lord and Savior (Acts 2:25-36).

When will we start preaching the full Gospel?



crankius -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/29/2007 5:39:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ezra

quote:

The Gospel Message is Christ crucified.


You see. There's your incomplete Gospel, which omits Christ as both Lord and Savior.

The Gospel Message is Christ crucified, buried, and resurrected (1 Cor. 15:1-4), thus establishing Him as both Lord and Savior (Acts 2:25-36).

When will we start preaching the full Gospel?


Please, Ezra.

Have you not read my posts? I'm stating that a proper and complete presentation of the gospel is necessary. I was simply quoting 1 Cor 1:23. I wasn't intentionally leaving out "Lord and Savior" as you are implying. Please don't read into my posts like that.

I don't, however, think it is proper to always include in your presentation of the gospel a phrase calling saints to question their salvation based upon their works.



GrahamCracker -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/29/2007 5:44:20 PM)

Crankius,

I like the article. It is worth investigating. But I don't know much about this guy. I had never heard of him.



Ezra -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/29/2007 5:55:53 PM)

quote:

I don't, however, think it is proper to always include in your presentation of the gospel a phrase calling saints to question their salvation based upon their works.


Crankius. Not the saints.

It is the false professors and the self-deceived who need to hear the message about the wise and foolish virgins, the wheat and the tares, the ones who say "Lord, Lord" but do not have the reality of Lordship in their lives.

Essentially, these people are lost -- perhaps religious but lost -- and they need to clearly understand that genuine saving faith produces obedience through the power of the Holy Spirit.

We read in Scripture that Simon Magus (the Sorcerer) evidently "believed". But his dialogue with Peter proved that he was a mere professor, and Church history shows that he went on to become one of the leading Gnostics opposing the true Gospel.



crankius -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/29/2007 5:57:08 PM)

Here is another article, How Does the Lordship Advocate Define Repentance?

quote:


During our on line discussion Nathan stated,

“Lordship sees repentance as more than just a change in dependence. It is also a change of allegiance. It includes a willingness to submit to the authority of Jesus Christ…. Lordship Salvation defines sin as rebellion or ‘lawlessness’ (which is how 1 John 3:4 defines it). To turn from (or forsake) one’s rebellion is (by definition) to begin submitting.”

“If I truly hate my sinfulness, and am broken over it, I will be simultaneously inclined to stop doing it. And as I earlier pointed out, the inclination (or desire or willingness) to stop sinning is the inclination to start obeying. And an inclination to start obeying is a change of allegiance (from self to God).”



So it looks like Lou Martuneac had an online discussion with Nathan Busenitz, personal assistant to Dr. John MacArthur, at Pulpit Magazine. Must have been an interesting discussion.

Edit to fix link. Hope it works now!



GrahamCracker -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/29/2007 9:48:15 PM)

Crankius,

Is that supposed to be a link in your post? It doesn't work if it is.



lmartuneac -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/29/2007 10:54:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gloryandgrace
The Word of God teaches that man is delivered by Jesus Christ from the penalty and the power of sin. Lordship salvation is a term coined only in resistance to the kind of salvation that is offered which plays down Christ's Lordship and the commands of God to flee from sin.

Hello:

I just joined to join in briefly. Some one at this board asked me to look in and possibly comment.

At the outset, let me say that I am on record taking a position against the Lordship Salvation. Men such as John MacArthur, John Piper, Walter Chantry and John Stott are the best know advocates for the Lordship interpretation of the Gospel.

“Commands of God to flee sin,” can never be an evangelistic message to the lost. I’m not sure that you are implying this in the quote from you above.

The lost man can’t flee sin, and he can’t promise to do so. If he promises to “flee sin” he is offering a work to God for salvation and this corrupts the simplicity that is in Christ (2 Cor. 11:3). Flee sin s no different that promising to turn over a new leaf, to reform his life. That is not faith, it is not repentance, and it is not the Gospel!

Lordship Salvation is man-centered, works based message, that frustrates the grace of God (Gal. 2:21).


LM

PS: I noticed my site was referred to above. My site is In Defense of the Gospel



Ezra -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/30/2007 2:38:14 AM)

quote:

The lost man can’t flee sin, and he can’t promise to do so. If he promises to “flee sin” he is offering a work to God for salvation and this corrupts the simplicity that is in Christ (2 Cor. 11:3). Flee sin s no different that promising to turn over a new leaf, to reform his life. That is not faith, it is not repentance, and it is not the Gospel!


On the contrary, please notice the close connection between the Gospel of Grace that brings salvation, and the uncompromising requirement to deny ungodliness and worldly lusts (Titus 2:11-15):

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, teaching us that denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in this present world...

[Christ] gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from all iniquity, and purifiy unto Himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee."

This is indeed the Gospel of Grace.



GrahamCracker -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/30/2007 7:11:18 AM)

Ezra,

How do those verses teach that one cannot be saved unless they deny ungodly lusts?

Are you suggesting that one must be zealous of good works to be saved? That is not sola fide.



Ezra -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/30/2007 9:40:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker

Ezra,

How do those verses teach that one cannot be saved unless they deny ungodly lusts?


That is not the purpose of those verses. What they do teach is that salvation must be accompanied by holiness, righteousness, and good works.

quote:

Are you suggesting that one must be zealous of good works to be saved? That is not sola fide.


Not at all. Eternal life is a gift. But one of the fruits of salvation is good works.

Those opposing so-called "Lordship salvation" must keep in mind firstly that saving faith means believing on "the LORD Jesus Christ", and secondly it includes repentance.

Therefore, on one hand the sinner receives Christ as his Lord and Master -- his Commander-in-Chief, and on the other hand he turns from his sins and idols to follow after righteousness. Thus obedience, discipleship and good works follow immediately.

Those whom Christ healed physically or forgave, He also commanded to go and sin no more. That's where these verses fit.



Gloryandgrace -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/30/2007 1:34:59 PM)

Hello lmartuneac

I read the link Crankius posted to the Lordship blog.

What appears to be a rebuttal to MacArthur is a only a resistance to the teachings of Jesus himself. Your problem is with Christ not MacArthur.

Now I know you are not going to admit that, youve written a book (which I have not read) that must somehow refute Lordship salvation and promote your own take on Free Grace.

Judging from the article in the blog. "An objective, unbiased reading can lead to just one conclusion: Dr. MacArthur demands a promise of life long obedience in “exchange” for salvation. This is man being told he must “offer
quote:

” what he will do or become in “exchange” for salvation. This is “works salvation.”

The Bible presents a much better, and a much different view of salvation than creating demands for an upfront commitment to life long obedience for the reception of eternal life."


Jesus said this. Mat 10:34 "Do not think that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Mat 10:35 For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
Mat 10:36 And a person's enemies will be those of his own household.
Mat 10:37 Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me, and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:38 And whoever does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me.
Mat 10:39 Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.
Mat 10:40 "Whoever receives you receives me, and whoever receives me receives him who sent me.

I suppose you would offer a rebuttal to Jesus for "front loading the gospel"?
Jesus in no uncertain terms expressed that a 'cost' was involved in following Him. That a worthiness was required to follow Him. That a 'Love' was required, that a 'taking the cross' was required, that a 'losing of ones life' was required.

We know that sinful man is dead in tresspasses and sins, that sinful men do not love, give, take crosses, lose their lives unless they have a cult or a false church that expects them to get religious. So if Jesus knew that sinful men couldnt do here what he requires, and yet the command will live and abide forever, how do you reconcile Jesus commands with mans inability? Is the problem with Lordship salvation? Is the problem with telling sinners to count the cost? If you believe the bible, the problem for you now lay in reconciling Jesus words with your own theology. As I said earlier synergism is the birth place for every works based cult and false church that has been born. Unless you adopt a monergistic stance you will stumble over reconciling Gods commands and your free will position. Will you believe you are the final arbitar of your salvation and yet expect that God's grace come by way of your approval of that grace and doing God the favor of believing on him?

The presuppositions upon which you build your theologies is what holds up the writing of your book. If you presume that you are able to save yourself in 'chosing' then you will in the end fall into the trap of thinking Jesus commands are works, and that his 'frontloading' run counter to your theology.

More in the next post

John



Gloryandgrace -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/30/2007 2:05:01 PM)

Hello lmartuneac:

Luk 18:18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
Luk 18:19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.
Luk 18:20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honor thy father and thy mother.
Luk 18:21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up.
Luk 18:22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.
Luk 18:23 And when he heard this, he was very sorrowful: for he was very rich.
Luk 18:24 And when Jesus saw that he was very sorrowful, he said, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!
Luk 18:25 For it is easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
Luk 18:26 And they that heard it said, Who then can be saved?
Luk 18:27 And he said, The things which are impossible with men are possible with God.
Luk 18:28 Then Peter said, Lo, we have left all, and followed thee,
Luk 18:29 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake,
Luk 18:30 Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting.

Again we have Jesus not only frontloading the gospel, but commending those whom 'gave' by saying they shall receive a reward for giving in order to follow.
Now if that doesnt crash your complaint about Lordship I dont know what will? But again you will probably have an answer to sidestep Jesus and me.

Notice a few things.

1. The young ruler says "Ive keep them all"
2. Jesus taking the young man at his word..says "Sell what you have"
3. Jesus was not kidding he was serious and spoke no lies (I hope you agree)
4. The young man would not sell his possessions and left.
5. The young man didnt obtain his 'eternal life'
6 The young man on the surface appeared to be buying that 'eternal life' from Jesus.
7. The disciples were floored "who then can be saved"?
8. The impossibility is now seen.

That myfriend is what Lordship teaching is all about. Salvation is an impossibility without God himself saving a man sovereignly and complete by his grace.
So what then of the crosses, love, worthiness, selling all, following Christ?
It comes by way of the same grace that saves. Jesus saves for the purpose of giving man the ability to carry a cross, to sell all he has, walk worthily of his calling, and so on.

The impossibilty of salvation stands in front of every man. The answer to that impossibility is God himself provides the solution. Gods grace saves to grant to men Gods own power and will to carry a cross and die to self. Lordship salvation has nothing to do with insinuating a man must work to obtain salvation anymore so than Jesus does in his commands to the rich young ruler and all the commands in matthew.

If you believe God undertakes to solve the impossibility to save a man so that same man will walk in the light of the Lord and holiness you will not in the end stumble over Lordship teaching. But if you believe man has the final say on his salvation you will by default connect Jesus words with legalism and concoct various ways to ignore them, place them inside the 'saved realm' and act as if Jesus wasnt making those commands to the unsaved.

As I see it the fundamental problem is the presuppositions upon which you base a mans response to the gospel.

As I see it, from what I have read of Free grace position the Rich young ruler would be accepted whole heartedly into fellowship without selling all he has and no doubt be in leadership position all the while lacking eternal life and inwardly denying Christ.
Because my friend the words "Just believe upon Christ' would have really bypassed the impossibility of his problem with God, it would have given him the confidence that his already professed belief that Christ 'gives eternal life' is good enough and warrants only the necessity of 'profession' and he could stay exactly like he was, living exactly like he did before and all he did was 'add' Jesus Christ to his commandment keeping life.
And who would dare to question or examine him?

This is the foundation of making false converts and the root cause of problems we have in the church

John



GrahamCracker -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/30/2007 4:41:22 PM)

Ezra, post 142
quote:

That is not the purpose of those verses. What they do teach is that salvation must be accompanied by holiness, righteousness, and good works.


The issue raised and the post you responded (post 139) to was not about what follows salvation, nor what salvation was designed to do. But the issue in #139 was whether or not to flee sin as a precondition for salvation. That a true genuine believer has the obligation to flee sin is not denied, even by the Free Grace position.



Gloryandgrace -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/30/2007 5:22:45 PM)

The exhortation to flee sin before one is saved is as important as it is after one is saved.

Flee from sin, stop drinking long enough to hear the gospel
Stop lying enough to deal honestly with yourself, stop doing drugs long enough to have a clear mind, stop running from hearing the gospel long enough get the message, stop hating God long enough listen to His offer of forgiveness.

The list can go on and on. Man must flee from sin long enough to hear and obey whatever portion large or small of the gospel that is given to him. The great blessing is that God intervenes right in the middle of all that drinking, drugging, lusting, hating, running and slows us down to obtain that salvation offered.

A mans flight from sin is not permenant in his unconverted condition, but long enough by Gods grace enabling to receive Gods Word and faith. Even the Word of God as a seed planted in the heart.
What do you think prisons are about, sickeness, desease, accidents and a myriad of other things that incapacitate us long enough for God to get our attention, that He is willing to save us while we are running headlong into the punishment for sin.

God is able to create the calamities of life to slam on the brakes so that we are 'captured' in the sense that we must deal with our souls condition. Fleeing from sin and God removing the ability to commit those destructive sins are all one in the same. They are works of grace that show Gods power to inject himself into our lives uninvited. Isnt that what grace is all about, uninvited
interuption from Gods power to cancel our plans for self-destruction.

The command to "take up the cross" given to unbelievers is encumbant upon them as believers, but the unbeliever has no power, no ability, no strength he must pray to God for a heart that is willing to do what is openly scandalous, shameful, degrading, humiliating, he must 'see' by Gods power that following Christ is an impossibility on his own and throw himself upon the mercy and power of God to give him power to will and do Gods good pleasure.

Christianity 101
God will command us to do what we in our own strength cannot do.

Lordship salvation preaches this clearly, that is why it leaves the 'front loading' of Jesus commands to the crowds to 'hate father and mother' as a 'worthiness' of following him.

To remove that frontloading as it has been called is to strip the gospel message of the intent of Gods call to discipleship. Salvation is unto discipleship, not merely to a condition of peace or an obtaining of a new destiny. That eternal destiny of Christ is what disciples obtain by faith.
The gift of faith that reaches beyond "I cant carry this cross its two heavy and painful" to a prayer that says "God have mercy on me a sinner what is impossible for me is possible for you"

As I have said all along, Free Grace intends to strip the intention of Christ's discipleship commands from the eternal life that is given to disciples.

Following Christ is to become a disciple it is not "how must I obtain eternal life".
The reward of God by grace is never given outside the conditions of being a disciple.

Jesus laid out the requirements of following Him, what Free gracers are calling 'works' Jesus is calling 'counting the cost' .

If you are teaching men that discipleship is somehow additive to Christ's salvation or encouraging men to flee from 'works of discipleship' because it contradicts free grace you are entirely mistaken.
Jesus intended to clearly set forth what it was to be a disciple of His and what God intended from the outset of His law that a mans heart is to be set upon righteousness and pleasing God. Gods reward was never intended to superceed the call to discipleship because it is all of grace to obtain that reward.

The Salvation of God is a salvation into the discipeship of Christ. It is the worthy calling that we obtain by faith in Christ. Any claims to making the call to discipleship a preaching of works is a statement of error.

John



HisbyHischoice -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/30/2007 6:35:39 PM)

I can agree with this.
quote:

ORIGINAL: crankius

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisbyHischoice

Would you rather people doubt once in awhile, or have false assurance? We are told to examine ourselves.


You bring up an interesting question. Our job is to preach the gospel message correctly. We are to give the good seed, and even to give good water. However, we are not responsible for giving the growth, and we are not responsible for giving ears that hear and eyes that see.

All we can do is keep preaching the correct Word of God. God will be faithful to finish the work He starts in any individual, and the Holy Spirit indwells in believers and urges them to obey the Spirit.

IF I am preaching the gospel correctly and the entirety of scripture, I don't have to worry myself over false converts. According to the parable of the seed, I should expect that the seed will not be accepted by all, and that some will at first think it's great but will not take the seed to heart for a lifetime. In addition, there will be tares among the wheat.



HisbyHischoice -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/30/2007 6:44:17 PM)

I know many from the free-grace crowd that take it too far, and abuse grace.
quote:

ORIGINAL: GrahamCracker

Ezra, post 142
quote:

That is not the purpose of those verses. What they do teach is that salvation must be accompanied by holiness, righteousness, and good works.


The issue raised and the post you responded (post 139) to was not about what follows salvation, nor what salvation was designed to do. But the issue in #139 was whether or not to flee sin as a precondition for salvation. That a true genuine believer has the obligation to flee sin is not denied, even by the Free Grace position.



GrahamCracker -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/30/2007 9:31:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: HisbyHischoice

I know many from the free-grace crowd that take it too far, and abuse grace.


Well, they did in the Bible times too.

"Shall we sin that grace may abound? May it never be..." (Romans 6)

Let's remember that those who believe we can lose our salvation make the same complaint about abuse. That it must be a lie from the pit of hell simply because people abuse it.



GrahamCracker -> RE: Lordship salvation and no other (7/30/2007 9:35:57 PM)

quote:

The command to "take up the cross" given to unbelievers is encumbant upon them as believers, but the unbeliever has no power, no ability, no strength he must pray to God for a heart that is willing to do what is openly scandalous, shameful, degrading, humiliating, he must 'see' by Gods power that following Christ is an impossibility on his own and throw himself upon the mercy and power of God to give him power to will and do Gods good pleasure.

That is not faith alone apart from works.



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