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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 7:13:01 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7959
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
IOW, am I born with potential to believe ?
Am I born of God already "programed" or
made by Master with capability to believe ?
I really don't have any idea what your questions are about or where you are going with them.
quote:
I must be born this way, or modified to be
this way, since I didn't maufacture myself
and I was not equipped with instruction manual.
Who do you know who thinks they "manfuactured themself"?
And what does this statement have to do with any discussion? Thanks.
How does flesh become spirit ?
It doesn't. God regenerates the dead human spirit. Then man is flesh and spirit.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 7:16:07 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
TD: I believe that FG theology produces fakes when it teaches that dead faith that produces no fruit is saving faith.
Nope, it doesnt teach that. It says that even when a believer produces little fruit - if he IS INDEED a true bron again believer - he is still saved. Nothing can make him unborn again.And it better be so – otherwise neither you no TheoCentric, no I, no Rwe, no Bee, no FG no Kel are saved. Because fruit wise we produce is often so little.
I kind of presume there is no hypocrites among us that took in the mirror and say "well, I seem to be producing so muuuuch fruit, look Lord! I am SURELY saved" So how can fruit be reliable?
Just ask the crowd in Matt 7:21-23. 
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 7:22:14 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
quote:
quote:
TD: I believe that FG theology produces fakes when it teaches that dead faith that produces no fruit is saving faith.
Nope, it doesnt teach that. It says that even when a believer produces little fruit - if he IS INDEED a true bron again believer - he is still saved. Nothing can make him unborn again.And it better be so – otherwise neither you no TheoCentric, no I, no Rwe, no Bee, no FG no Kel are saved. Because fruit wise we produce is often so little.
FG says all the time that the dead faith mentioned in James is still saving faith. Do you agree with him?
The following verse destroys FG's belief in that, but he fails to recognize it:
(Jas 2:14 ESV) What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
No, it doesn't. You must think I am unaware of that verse. Well, it "kicks off" the passage of "dead faith", and I am fully aware of it.
The problem, which I've noted previously, is that "save" doesn't always refer to eternal salvation. In fact, James uses the word a number of times, and none of them refer to eternal salvation. In 2:14, he is using the word "save" in its general meaning of deliverance. He is asking, can a faith without works deliver anyone (from need)?
This is backed up by the next 2 verses. He notes that just telling one who is naked and hungry to "be warmed and filled" is useless. iow, it doesn't deliver them from their coldness and hunger. One must actually give that person some clothing and food in order to deliver them from their predicament.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 7:23:22 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7959
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
And how do you distinguish between the temporary
and continual rejection?
Perseverance doctrine presupposes continual rejection
not possible for the true believer.
That doctrine, along with most of the reformed doctrines, contains quite a bit of presupposition.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 7:25:22 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
Rwe- if you believe that OT way of salvation was
something else then faith in Messiah and being born again
we have major disagreements on a more essential level....
Sorry dear, I have never understood OT salvation by faith and regeneration.
Are you about to open a new door to me?
I thought OT justification came through obedience, not faith.
This is a rather shocking revelation, rw! My goodness! So, salvation was by human effort in the OT?
Please read Acts 10:43 very carefully.
quote:
You know, "Abraham obeyed God and it was credited to him as righteousness"
Way before that he believed God and that faith in God was credited to him as righteousness.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 8:55:44 PM
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SureHope
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
If you think that that Cornelius has proved me wrong you don't understand what I am saying.
Apparently so. Your claim that man chooses not to honor God is disproven by Cornelius. As an unbeliever, He honored and worshiped God.
My point has been that man does not honor God by loving Him with all his being. Because this is so, we can both agree that Cornelius did not honor God in this way.
quote:
quote:
It appears that you actually agree with me. You say that the correct statement is:
"The reason man doesn't obey is because he doesn't want to." (quoted from Post #29004)
You also say that,
"From our sinful nature, we are unable to be sinless." (quoted from Post #29005)
You agree with me that man is unwilling and that he is unable.
No, you have misunderstood. To what did I say man is unable to do? It was be sinless, not unable to honor or recognize God. So, I do not agree with your position.
No, I have not misunderstood you. My position is and has always been the same - that man is unable to be sinless and he is unwilling to be sinless. Loving God with all your heart is that which ultimately honors God. All of us have not honored God by loving Him with all of our being. We have been unable to do so and are unwilling to do so.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 10:01:23 PM
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rwe2156
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
You are misunderstanding that salvation ever came to anyone because of obedience .
Obedience is a work , no one ever was , nor ever will be saved by works .
Well......
What as the Old Covenant, then if not salvation by works (obedience to the Law)?
The was no other way, until the Messiah came.
quote:
RWE: Nobody was in heaven, i.e. nobody was saved before Jesus.
BEE: Wrong ; it can be disputed that no one was in heaven, .....
A better word might be Paradise , or Abraham's bosom as the holding
place (for lack of a better phrase) of the saved
The holding place of the saved, or rather those who God foreknew would believe?
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Bee, there is no disputing that no one was in heaven before Jesus ascended.
quote:
there were many saved before Jesus .
Please explain how.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 10:20:22 PM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Man (in what condition) is able (by what power) to believe (precisely what). Let's stick to believing.
Man is able to believe the gospel because God created man to be able to do so. It's part of man's intellect.
Sounds like you are saying the Good News is potentially good. Something could or might happen, but we have to wait for man to act. Is that God's plan ? Watching and waiting on man to act or do something ?
Additionally, this scenario depicts God as a taunter and a teaser of man. Everyone could, might, or even possibly or maybe believe, but God waits aimlessly as man exercises his ability. This also forces the conclusion that man is able, but is not competent enough to utilize his faculties. Salvation is a kinda grab-bag of cosmic, mystical uncertainty. If I am lucky enough to trigger my ability gene, then I could or might be able to believe. Thus, God is a mad scientist who simply observes what us lab rats do ?
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/3/2008 10:20:30 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2399
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
This is a rather shocking revelation, rw!
My goodness! So, salvation was by human effort in the OT?
Ummmm.......Yes???
Before Christ the only way to heaven was...........the Law????
And it didn't work out to good for Israel, did it?
So, God made a New Covenant!!
Yes, shocking, isn't it?
OT: No Christ, not atonement, no salvation........but He came
and they had the chance to receive the gospel. 1Pet 3:18.
Oh, boy... it just occurred to me- you are jerking my chain, aren't you?
quote:
Please read Acts 10:43 very carefully.
I did. You're not jerking my chain? You're serious?
"All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in
him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
OK, to you this says many were saved by faith in the OT?
Where does it tell us people could believe be benefactors of an
atonement that had not happened yet?
quote:
You know, "Abraham obeyed God and it was credited to him as righteousness"
Way before that he believed God and that faith in God was credited to him as righteousness.
Credited to him as righteousness. He was not made righteous.
He did not believe the gospel because he hadn't heard it yet.
Where does it say Abraham received and believed the gospel before he died?
Free - if you are shocked that actually assures me I may be right.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/4/2008 4:39:45 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3897
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Destiny7777
Hi,
Hope it's ok to just jump in.
I've been reading the conversation for a while and have a few thoughts. I was looking at Matthew 18:15 "If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. 16 But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.' 17 If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector."
I believe this Scripture addressing Church Discipline can be applied to this conversation (please correct me if I'm wrong). We are not able to determine if one who confesses Christ and then falls away is or was ever a believer or not, but Scripture admonishes us to treat them as a pagan or tax collector - iow as a candidate for evangelism. We love them and share Christ with them, but don't offer them any assurance of salvation. Instead we point out to them their need of salvation. Whether they are truly saved or not only the Lord knows. Our instructions say, treat them as their fruit dictates.
This is precisely what Paul did when he excommunicated the adulterous man and commanded the church not to permit other blatant sinners to remain(1Cor 5). He judged them by their fruit. Bad fruit equals a bad tree according to Christ.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/4/2008 4:41:08 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3897
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
OK, to you this says many were saved by faith in the OT?
Where does it tell us people could believe be benefactors of an
atonement that had not happened yet? All the OT saints were saved exactly as we are today by the new birth by being indwelled by the Holy Spirit:
Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you: 11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.
Their salvation was possible because Christ is "the Lamb slain from before the foundation of the world". The saints of the OT all believed in the coming Messiah - their Redeemer.
We see that Job believed in the Redeemer same as NT believers must.“For I know that my Redeemer lives.” -Job 19:25
In Romans 4:16, we see Abraham was saved by the same grace as we are.
"Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,"
quote:
John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Bee, there is no disputing that no one was in heaven before Jesus ascended. Christ is not saying there is no one in heaven. He is explaining to Nicodemus that no could go up into heaven to bring down to earth this knowledge of divine and heavenly things.
We see similar phrasing in Deut 30:12; Psalms 73:17; Proverbs 30:4; Romans 11:34. We know Elijah were went into heaven(2Kings 2:11).
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/4/2008 7:25:03 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7959
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
If you think that that Cornelius has proved me wrong you don't understand what I am saying.
Apparently so. Your claim that man chooses not to honor God is disproven by Cornelius. As an unbeliever, He honored and worshiped God.
My point has been that man does not honor God by loving Him with all his being. Because this is so, we can both agree that Cornelius did not honor God in this way.
How do you figure that Cornelius "did not honor God"? God answered his prayers. My point is that God responds to man's recognition of Him and honoring Him as God.
quote:
quote:
No, you have misunderstood. To what did I say man is unable to do? It was be sinless, not unable to honor or recognize God. So, I do not agree with your position.
No, I have not misunderstood you. My position is and has always been the same - that man is unable to be sinless and he is unwilling to be sinless.
How can you speak for anyone else? How do you know who else is "unwilling to be sinless"? I"m looking forward to that day myself. To say that I am unwilling to be sinless is ridiculous. If you are unwilling to be sinless, that is a problem you must face.
quote:
Loving God with all your heart is that which ultimately honors God.
We already know what honors God. Rom 1 tells us.
quote:
All of us have not honored God by loving Him with all of our being. We have been unable to do so and are unwilling to do so.
You are half right. We are unable to, but you are wrong to assume that, other than yourself, all are unwilling to.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/4/2008 7:32:44 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7959
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Man (in what condition) is able (by what power) to believe (precisely what). Let's stick to believing.
Man is able to believe the gospel because God created man to be able to do so. It's part of man's intellect.
Sounds like you are saying the Good News is potentially good.
No, I say that the gospel IS good news, even though many reject that goodness.
quote:
Something could or might happen, but we have to wait for man to act. Is that God's plan ?
What you misunderstand is that for anyone (whosoever) who believes is absolutely saved. The potential is for everyone. The salvation is for all who believe. I find it amusing that you continue to think only of "might happen".
quote:
Watching and waiting on man to act or do something ?
Why do you say that? God is omniscient. He's known everything always.
[quoe]Additionally, this scenario depicts God as a taunter and a teaser of man. Everyone could, might, or even possibly or maybe believe, but God waits aimlessly as man exercises his ability.
Your depiction is a sad caricature of reality. You just can't grasp that God in grace could or would offer a free gift to all who would simply recieve it by faith, but that is exactly what the Bible says.
quote:
This also forces the conclusion that man is able, but is not competent enough to utilize his faculties.
Ridiculous statement. Since many have believed in Christ, your mischaracterization of man being not competent enough is dismissed.
quote:
Salvation is a kinda grab-bag of cosmic, mystical uncertainty.
You do your theology no favor by posting such "stuff". There is nothing mystical or uncertain about believing the simple good news that Jesus Christ died for your sins and gives eternal life to all who believe.
WHat is clear from your postings is your complete lack of understanding of my position.
quote:
If I am lucky enough to trigger my ability gene, then I could or might be able to believe.
For one with puppetry theology, I can understand such "stuff", but luck isn't part of the deal. Believing is what everyone can do.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/4/2008 7:38:07 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7959
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
This is a rather shocking revelation, rw!
My goodness! So, salvation was by human effort in the OT?
Ummmm.......Yes???
Before Christ the only way to heaven was...........the Law????
And it didn't work out to good for Israel, did it?
Apparently you didn't read Acts 10:43, did you? The Law was to point the way to Christ. Christ was prophesied in the OT and lthose who believed God's promise regarding the Messiah were saved, just as we look back to the cross and are saved.
quote:
quote:
Please read Acts 10:43 very carefully.
I did. You're not jerking my chain? You're serious?
"All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in
him receives forgiveness of sins through his name."
OK, to you this says many were saved by faith in the OT?
Believing in His Name brought forgiveness. That is salvation.
quote:
Where does it tell us people could believe be benefactors of an
atonement that had not happened yet?
Apparently you are unaware of the many prophecies of the Messiah in the OT. Recall that when Jesus' parents brought Him to the temple as an infant, there was an old priest who was waiting to see the Messiah and when he saw Jesus, he said he was ready to die, for he had seen God's salvation. All of Israel was aware of the promise of the Messiah. It was faith in the Messiah that brought salvation, same as for us.
quote:
Free - if you are shocked that actually assures me I may be right.
I'll bet even the reformists are shocked at your beliefs about OT salvation.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/4/2008 7:39:15 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7959
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Are we hard-wired to believe ?
Only those whom God hard-wired to think.
So, eventually, by a mystical process, man in a defiant state of hatred towards
God somehow moves himself mentally and spiritually in a direction that he doesn't even know exists ??? HOW ?
Why do you say by a "mystical process"? Did you note what I said? I said God hard wired man to be able to think. Man is therefore able to understand the good news and believe it. There is nothing mysical about it.
So, now we are saved by thinking ?...Thinking what ?...happy thoughts ?
Maybe believing something isn't thinking to you. But it is to most of humanity.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/4/2008 7:59:35 AM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2399
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Is that God's plan ? Watching and waiting on man to act or do something ?
Man must respond to the draw of God.
Is he a Stepford husband? Or.....
.....stiff-necked and obstinate; hardened by the
cares and pride of life; without excuse?
quote:
Thus, God is a mad scientist who simply
observes what us lab rats do ?
If there is no maze, the lab rat has no choice but to
go exactly where the pathway takes him....
....and, voila! The experiment was a success!
Neither is the mad scientist creating rats to go
through the maze exactly he wants, either.
It proves nothing to the rat and give the
scientist nothing to submit to the journal.
Tell me, why would he test his creation's faith - just
to let them know he's the boss? Give them assurance its real?
And why would the creation be told to test their faith?
Why did Jesus say "consider the cost?"
Why does it take several gospel messages for the elect one to believe?
And what about sanctification? Man does not cooperate?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/4/2008 9:19:32 AM
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john_mark
Posts: 525
Joined: 7/20/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
Man's inability is based upon his bent towards unwillingness to treasure God and his resistance to submit to Him. Man has the equipment needed to obey, just not the heart that joyfully marvels at God and lovingly obeys Him. For example: fallen man can direct his will however he wants and can use his brain to comprehend the Bible. But what fallen man lacks is an approbation or loving agreement to that which he comprehends. In other words, he does not spiritually see and understand (1 Cor 2, 2 Cor 4:4-6).
i agree with what you have said here. when i interupted your thread it wasnt to argue with you, i just found it refreshing that an old arminian(me), and someone of the reformed tradition could find a point of agreement. unfortunately that doesnt happen much here.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/4/2008 10:02:04 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Man (in what condition) is able (by what power) to believe (precisely what). Let's stick to believing.
Man is able to believe the gospel because God created man to be able to do so. It's part of man's intellect.
Sounds like you are saying the Good News is potentially good.
No, I say that the gospel IS good news, even though many reject that goodness.
So, the Good News is limited in scope ? Only those with ears to hear are able to hear. Your version implies that the message lacks both power and efficacy. Appears to be a gospel of impotence as the promises of God fall aimlessly and helplessly to the ground. God wonders who will be saved as opposed to God decides who will be saved ? WOW, who looks like the player in that scenario...? Are you implying that Holy God is pleading and begging with sinful man to accept His offer ? Again, you have God waiting on man to act. Rather presumptuous.
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/4/2008 10:27:50 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Something could or might happen, but we have to wait for man to act. Is that God's plan ?
What you misunderstand is that for anyone (whosoever) who believes is absolutely saved. The potential is for everyone. The salvation is for all who believe. I find it amusing that you continue to think only of "might happen".
It's in no way funny, rather quite tragic. Let's consider the promise made to Abraham. Was God's promise to Abraham that ALL men would be saved ? Is there a Covenant with ALL men ? What is the full number of the Gentiles ? It's about God's oath, not man's choosing. What is amusing, is that anyone could contrive that God idly observes without intervention, hoping man makes the right move. According to this model, we don't need God, we simply need to be better humans !
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/4/2008 10:35:28 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2921
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
This also forces the conclusion that man is able, but is not competent enough to utilize his faculties.
Ridiculous statement. Since many have believed in Christ, your mischaracterization of man being not competent enough is dismissed.
You inadvertently proved my point !!!.......What about those who have not utilized their believing equipment correctly ? Did some receive an operator's manual ? Why did they perform the task, when other's failed ? Perhaps they lacked the skill, ability, and desire; and were unable and unwilling to foster, cultivate, or manufacture these traits ? Just a crazy thought...
_____________________________
Effectus non excedit virtutem suae causae [the effect cannot exceed the power of its cause]
Grace may be free, but it may not be chosen...
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