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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 4:03:35 PM
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rwe2156
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Manna-
You understand this theology is "I think, therefore I believe"?
All Scripture is read through this presupposition, so sanctification,
fruit, and perseverance are under man's control and are not
givens for the "believer".
It explains why Free interprets the sower parable the way he does.
No, rw, there is no "interpretation". Jesus plainly told us the second soil believed after He equated believing with being saved. Rather than being "interpretive", it's more like math; you know, one plus one equals two.
Jesus plainly said they believed in John 2:23-24, too. 
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 6:12:15 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
How do you figure that Cornelius "did not honor God"? God answered his prayers. My point is that God responds to man's recognition of Him and honoring Him as God.
Like I stated, Cornelius did not honor God by loving him with all his heart, mind, soul and strength.
I think your argument about this command is irrelevant. No one is saved by obvserving that command, and no one can fulfill it perfectly, so what is your point?
That God commands that which man cannot fulfill in and of himself.
And what is the point of that, specifically? It is quite obvious that God already knows exactly how each of us turn out.
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quote:
This discussion is going nowhere. I fail to see you point. I am willing to be sinless, but unable to be sinless. How about you?
You are only partially willing to be sinless. Only partially because, as you have already stated, “everyone sins because they choose to.”
That is point of time, not constantly. You didn't answer my question: how about you: are you willing to be sinless, anthough unable to be sinless?
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If you choose to sin it is only because you are willing to sin.
Don't forget that we are also quite able to sin. 
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In other words, you fail to obey a command of God because you are unwilling to do so. If you say merely unable you do not take responsibility for your sin.
I'm still not seeing point here. You fail to grasp that being unable to perfectly obey a command has nothing to do with being willing or unwilling.
quote:
My point is that there are commands that God gives that man is unwilling (by nature) and thus unable to fulfill. This conversation started back with post # 28658. You have proved my point true in a wonderful way – thank you.
Blessings, SH
Glad you think so, but I still don't know what your point is in all this. iow, so what? Can you just simply answer this? Thanks.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/5/2008 6:13:46 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
Manna-
You understand this theology is "I think, therefore I believe"?
All Scripture is read through this presupposition, so sanctification,
fruit, and perseverance are under man's control and are not
givens for the "believer".
It explains why Free interprets the sower parable the way he does.
No, rw, there is no "interpretation". Jesus plainly told us the second soil believed after He equated believing with being saved. Rather than being "interpretive", it's more like math; you know, one plus one equals two.
Jesus plainly said they believed in John 2:23-24, too.
Yes, He did. They did believe, and were saved. Can you show me anywhere in the text of John where He said they weren't saved?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 2:07:56 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3709
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
I regularly listen to him and haven’t caught him teaching that works are optional, not needed, you can be in sin and assured of being saved,etc. I have not seen that.
Still, the fact remains he does teach that if one has believed yet dies an atheist - he is welcomed into heaven. This is found in his book Eternal Security. Also, on page 71 of that book Stanley says "... there are Christians who show no evidence of their Christianity ..."
More from his Eternal Security:
"The Bible clearly teaches that God's love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand."
"Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy."
"... believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation ...."
I'm not saying he may not preach some truths; but, mixed right along with them are these gross scriptual errors. Stanley teaches there exists such a creature as an "unbelieving" Christian - that, my friend, is something alien to Scripture.
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O: telling a kid you will love him no matter what is not encouraging the child to mistreat his parents.
K But telling a person they are a child of God when, in fact, every indication is to the contrary - is spiritually deadly - to that "kid".
Unlike in case of parenthood we don’t know who is or who isn’t a child of God. FG doesn’t teach that anyone is a child of God for nobody there claims that we can see salvation status of another. I'm not talking about knowing the salvation status of someone else - only of one's self. Are you saying FGM does not teach that if one believes Jesus Christ died for his sins he is saved?
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Salvation and chastisement I addressed already in the first part of this post: If we fail to understand each other regarding the difference between these two things we are totally wasting time with each other debating this, despite all my love for you, brother. And I remember replying to you saying that I've always been speaking of salvation - not chastisement.
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Since we see no biblical support for saved individuals living in gross sin, let alone dying in gross sin, yes, I'd have to say had Solomon died before he repented he would have been lost. The fact we are told he did repent should be evidence enough.
But you see, according to this your theology only allows you to claim that Solomon got saved after his repentance sometime before death,and he lived unsaved all his life. Unless you're aware of something I am not, which of course, is entirely possible, we are not told when Solomon was saved. But, we are told he repented of his sins and that he was "beloved of God". Not to mention he was a penman of three books and two psalms. We know that God gave much wisdom to Solomon during his life; but, again this does not mean he was saved during all this time.
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Repentance is changing attitude towards sin, and turning from it is a proof that we repented.
IF someone claims that Christian repentance from certain sin always mean quitting that sin - Mirror is very helpful in such cases.... I totally agree with your first sentence; but, not so much with your second. In fact, they seem a little contradictory. Repentence from sin does mean, as you say, "turning from it"; but, it also involves "quitting that sin". If you mean that we may commit that sin again, yes, I can agree we might. That is the Christian life, when we sin we repent and turn from that sin; and, if need be we repeat steps one and two :)
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 2:13:34 AM
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kelman
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: rwe2156
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ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Is that God's plan ? Watching and waiting on man to act or do something ?
Man must respond to the draw of God.
Is he a Stepford husband? Or.....
rw, you are actually quite close. To the reformists, they seem quite comfortable with the idea of being puppets in which God pulls the strings.
Whereas others pull God's strings and make The Great I AM subservient to their wishes and desires. If God doesn't direct me, then I am directing myself. In this scenario I am a puppetmaster to myself. Wouldn't it be likened to, and more appropriate to say I am a god unto myself ? I am my own master. I call the shots. I am in charge. I make the rules. I decide. Who is in absolute, total control ?
Great post, Manna!
To answer your question "Who is in absolute, total control?" - ultimately, the one who decides eternal salvation - man? or God?
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 5:37:17 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1591
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
How do you figure that Cornelius "did not honor God"? God answered his prayers. My point is that God responds to man's recognition of Him and honoring Him as God.
Like I stated, Cornelius did not honor God by loving him with all his heart, mind, soul and strength.
I think your argument about this command is irrelevant. No one is saved by obvserving that command, and no one can fulfill it perfectly, so what is your point?
That God commands that which man cannot fulfill in and of himself.
And what is the point of that, specifically?
I will share my point, specifically, when you are intellectually honest about the discussion at hand. It is no use going on if you continue to use subterfuge like the following . . .
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It is quite obvious that God already knows exactly how each of us turn out.
It appears you are trying your best to keep the discussion off the topic - pure subterfuge. I would expect an argument like this from a politician running for office, but find it quite out of place in a discussion concerning truth.
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This discussion is going nowhere. I fail to see you point. I am willing to be sinless, but unable to be sinless. How about you?
You are only partially willing to be sinless. Only partially because, as you have already stated, “everyone sins because they choose to.”
That is point of time, not constantly.
However you try to make it - “point of time” or not - does not matter. The issue is – you are unwilling to obey God’s command to love Him with all of your being (if you were willing you would obey) and you are unable. You have already admitted to being unwilling to obey when you sin and that you are unable not to sin. What is your problem with acknowledging that which you have already admitted?
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You didn't answer my question: how about you: are you willing to be sinless, anthough unable to be sinless?
I am willing and able to admit that I am unwilling and unable to obey God’s ultimate command in and of myself – this is true of all people.
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quote:
In other words, you fail to obey a command of God because you are unwilling to do so. If you say merely unable you do not take responsibility for your sin.
I'm still not seeing point here. You fail to grasp that being unable to perfectly obey a command has nothing to do with being willing or unwilling.
You keep arguing against that which you have already unwittingly admitted to – this is what you fail to admit.
When you choose to sin, who is it that is unwilling not to sin? It is you – no one else to blame but yourself. If you were in fact willing not to sin you wouldn’t sin.
I am not saying that those who are born again do not have a desire to live holy and to love God more wholly and more consistently, but that is not the issue. The issue is that no on is fully willing, thus not able to obey God's ultimate command.
quote:
quote:
My point is that there are commands that God gives that man is unwilling (by nature) and thus unable to fulfill. This conversation started back with post # 28658. You have proved my point true in a wonderful way – thank you.
Blessings, SH
Glad you think so, but I still don't know what your point is in all this. iow, so what? Can you just simply answer this? Thanks.
Like I said above, when you are honest enough to deal with this fundamental issue it will be worth my while to continue. If not, it is a waste of your time and mine.
If you are not willing to be intellectually honest about fundamental things, then you won’t be able to honestly discuss anything else.
Blessings to you,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 7:50:28 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2609
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Some will not make the cut. Why ? You must say Jesus died for you to the unsaved. Where's the "good news" in that ?
You don't think that Jesus' death for the unsaved is good news? Why?
Your belief, not mine...Precisely, you must tell the unsaved in hell that Jesus died for them. Then explain their fate.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
Woody Allen
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 7:54:22 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2609
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
You keep arguing against that which you have already unwittingly admitted to – this is what you fail to admit.
When you choose to sin, who is it that is unwilling not to sin? It is you – no one else to blame but yourself. If you were in fact willing not to sin you wouldn’t sin.
I am not saying that those who are born again do not have a desire to live holy and to love God more wholly and more consistently, but that is not the issue. The issue is that no on is fully willing, thus not able to obey God's ultimate command.
Great post Sure !!!
If I was willing & able I wouldn't need Christ-
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
Woody Allen
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 8:06:23 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2609
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
You inadvertently proved my point !!!.......What about those who have not utilized their believing equipment correctly ? Did some receive an operator's manual ? Why did they perform the task, when other's failed ?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Huh, God gives some 360s with red rings ? IOW, God the author of all things distributes some equipmnet that will not perform as intended ? So, God gives everyone the same equipment and only some have been given the ability to use it properly ? Do these others know that they possess faulty equipment ?...Or maybe they don't know it's broken ?...Perhaps, God (out of respect for FREE WILL) won't fix it !
Your postings continue to demonstrate your failure to grasp what is so simple to understand. Maybe you just don't want to.
God gave mankind "equipment" which includes both "on" and "off" switches. There is no "ability/inability" issue. We have both switches, and are free to push either one. Are you able to comprehend that?
Since God equipped amd furnished everyone as He saw fit, and as it pleased Him, all are destined to use the
equipment or lack thereof. You are not free to turn on what you don't have. Now you are sounding like God made everyone identical (like robots), and He is conducting an AI experiment. Your position always has man calling the shots...while God is WAITING for something to happen. If you believe God does not cause, then you must believe man causes. That belief is riddled with uncertainty, whereas God does exactly what He says.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
Woody Allen
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 8:13:24 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1687
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
You are misunderstanding that salvation ever came to anyone because of obedience .
Obedience is a work , no one ever was , nor ever will be saved by works .
Well......
What as the Old Covenant, then if not salvation by works (obedience to the Law)?
The was no other way, until the Messiah came.
There is no salvation by the deeds of the law : Rom 3:20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight : for by the law is the knowledge of sin . Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law , but by the faith of Christ , even we have believed in Jesus Christ , that we might be justified by the faith of Christ , and not by the works of the law : for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified . 21) I do not frustrate the grace of God : for if righteousness come by the law , then Christ is dead in vain . Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God , it is evident : for THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH . 18) For if the inheritance be of the law , it is no more of promise : but God gave it to Abraham by promise . 21) Is the law then against the promises of God ? God forbid : for if there had been a law given which could have given life , verily righteousness should have been by the law .
There has always been only one way to be saved , and that way was through faith by grace , and never through the law .
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RWE: Nobody was in heaven, i.e. nobody was saved before Jesus.
BEE: Wrong ; it can be disputed that no one was in heaven, .....
A better word might be Paradise , or Abraham's bosom as the holding
place (for lack of a better phrase) of the saved The holding place of the saved, or rather those who God foreknew would believe?
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John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.[/i
Bee, there is no disputing that no one was in heaven before Jesus ascended.
Yes , there is plenty to dispute that .
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there were many saved before Jesus .
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Please explain how.
Hebrews chapter 11 should explain that nicely for you .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 8:16:50 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1687
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Some will not make the cut. Why ? You must say Jesus died for you to the unsaved. Where's the "good news" in that ?
You don't think that Jesus' death for the unsaved is good news? Why?
Your belief, not mine...Precisely, you must tell the unsaved in hell that Jesus died for them. Then explain their fate.
Something Jesus has already done himself , face to face .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 8:19:09 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1687
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
You keep arguing against that which you have already unwittingly admitted to – this is what you fail to admit.
When you choose to sin, who is it that is unwilling not to sin? It is you – no one else to blame but yourself. If you were in fact willing not to sin you wouldn’t sin.
I am not saying that those who are born again do not have a desire to live holy and to love God more wholly and more consistently, but that is not the issue. The issue is that no on is fully willing, thus not able to obey God's ultimate command.
Great post Sure !!!
If I was willing & able I wouldn't need Christ-
And that would be works based salvation , very unscriptural .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 10:14:43 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2609
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Since I have successfully defended the fact that Christ died for everyone, how in the world could you even suggest that the gospel is limited in scope?
Because Paul says it by The Holy Spirit ???
God chooses SOME out of ALL...not potential all.
1 Corinthians 1:26-29 (King James Version)
26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Where is the all in "not many" ?
Romanticizing God sounds nice, but the work
of Christ on the earth was NOT to save everyone.
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
Woody Allen
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 11:08:51 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1687
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Since I have successfully defended the fact that Christ died for everyone, how in the world could you even suggest that the gospel is limited in scope?
Because Paul says it by The Holy Spirit ???
God chooses SOME out of ALL...not potential all.
1 Corinthians 1:26-29 (King James Version)
26For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Where is the all in "not many" ?
Romanticizing God sounds nice, but the work
of Christ on the earth was NOT to save everyone.
So you say the majority of the wise and mighty and noble have no chance for salvation ? What a pitiful gospel that is .
Are you saying that Christ had no intention of providing salvation for all the chosen and elect nation of ethnic Israel ?
Sounds like the dumbed down gospel that God only saves those He has elected for salvation . Again that's a pitiful gospel .
Here's the all : Even the righteousness of God which is by faith Of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe : for there is no difference : for all have sinned , and come short of the glory of God ; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus : Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood , to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past , through the forbearance of God ; to declare , I say , at this time his righteousness : that he might be just , and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 11:10:46 AM
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Odeliya
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I have the book and read it, and know the quotes, K :)
quote:
Stanley teaches there exists such a creature as an "unbelieving" Christian – that, my friend, is something alien to Scripture.
So you agree that it is possible that Solomon was saved before becoming (therefore while being) an idol worshipper.How is being an idol worsh. better then being an atheist ?
If one can be saved and commit the sin of id. worshipping, or denying One and Only God why is being saved and committing the same sin of denying One and only God only by calling it atheism isnt also, at least theoretically, possible?
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Are you saying FGM does not teach that if one believes Jesus Christ died for his sins he is saved?
If one truly believes that (not to be confused with mere professing – people can "profess" and "claim" a lot of things, without really believeing 'em) and is born again he is saved by God, from that moment for eternity, correct. That is what I believe the Bible states. What do you object to here?
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O: repentance is changing attitude towards sin, and turning from it is a proof that we repented. IF someone claims that Christian repentance from certain sin always mean quitting that sin - Mirror is very helpful in such cases....
K : I totally agree with your first sentence; but, not so much with your second. In fact, they seem a little contradictory. Repentence from sin does mean, as you say, "turning from it"; but, it also involves "quitting that sin". If you mean that we may commit that sin again, yes, I can agree we might. That is the Christian life, when we sin we repent and turn from that sin; and, if need be we repeat steps one and two :)
What do we disagree on, K-man, exactly? We both say that repentance means turning from sin, but sometimes we don’t turn. That doesn’t mean we didn’t repent. It takes more then one repent attempt to turn away, some sins we never overcome, nobody dies perfectly sanctified, but still while being a sinner.Explain what is under debate here, please.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 2:06:43 PM
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Mannamuncher
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
Sounds like the dumbed down gospel that God only saves those He has elected for salvation .
Believing that you believe is NOT belief...
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
Woody Allen
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 6:09:34 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
I regularly listen to him and haven’t caught him teaching that works are optional, not needed, you can be in sin and assured of being saved,etc. I have not seen that.
Still, the fact remains he does teach that if one has believed yet dies an atheist - he is welcomed into heaven. This is found in his book Eternal Security. Also, on page 71 of that book Stanley says "... there are Christians who show no evidence of their Christianity ..."
More from his Eternal Security:
"The Bible clearly teaches that God's love for His people is of such magnitude that even those who walk away from the faith have not the slightest chance of slipping from His hand."
"Even if a believer for all practical purposes becomes an unbeliever, his salvation is not in jeopardy."
"... believers who lose or abandon their faith will retain their salvation ...."
I'm not saying he may not preach some truths; but, mixed right along with them are these gross scriptual errors. Stanley teaches there exists such a creature as an "unbelieving" Christian - that, my friend, is something alien to Scripture.
No, kelman, what is alien and foreign to Scripture is the idea that if a believer quits believing, he loses his salvation. You must not really be reformed if that is your belief.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 6:11:28 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Is that God's plan ? Watching and waiting on man to act or do something ?
Man must respond to the draw of God.
Is he a Stepford husband? Or.....
rw, you are actually quite close. To the reformists, they seem quite comfortable with the idea of being puppets in which God pulls the strings.
Whereas others pull God's strings and make The Great I AM subservient to their wishes and desires. If God doesn't direct me, then I am directing myself. In this scenario I am a puppetmaster to myself. Wouldn't it be likened to, and more appropriate to say I am a god unto myself ? I am my own master. I call the shots. I am in charge. I make the rules. I decide. Who is in absolute, total control ?
Great post, Manna!
To answer your question "Who is in absolute, total control?" - ultimately, the one who decides eternal salvation - man? or God?
The post demonstrated the misunderstanding you continue to have about free will. God is in total control. It is His plan. Man either believes what God says, or rejects it, but it is God's plan. Sad that you cannot understand that.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 6:13:57 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Some will not make the cut. Why ? You must say Jesus died for you to the unsaved. Where's the "good news" in that ?
You don't think that Jesus' death for the unsaved is good news? Why?
Your belief, not mine...Precisely, you must tell the unsaved in hell that Jesus died for them. Then explain their fate.
Why do you think anyone will try "evangelism" on the unsaved in hell? What would be the point? I am speaking of the here and now. That Christ died for everyone is good news. Or do you disagree that His dying for everyone is good news.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 6:15:03 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
You keep arguing against that which you have already unwittingly admitted to – this is what you fail to admit.
When you choose to sin, who is it that is unwilling not to sin? It is you – no one else to blame but yourself. If you were in fact willing not to sin you wouldn’t sin.
I am not saying that those who are born again do not have a desire to live holy and to love God more wholly and more consistently, but that is not the issue. The issue is that no on is fully willing, thus not able to obey God's ultimate command.
Great post Sure !!!
If I was willing & able I wouldn't need Christ-
Tremendous misunderstanding. One must be willing to trust in Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 7:55:23 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2043
Status: offline
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quote:
RWE: John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one
who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Bee, there is no disputing that no one was in heaven before Jesus ascended.
UMCBEE: Yes , there is plenty to dispute that .
Any Scripture you find cannot contradict the one I cited,
which, BTW, require no interpretation, but merely a
basic understanding of English.
quote:
BEE There were many saved before Jesus .
RWE: Please explain how.
Hebrews chapter 11 should explain that nicely for you .
Please show where Heb 11 says anyone was saved by faith in Christ.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 7:56:27 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 352
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
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Manna
quote:
Where is the all in "not many" ?
bee
quote:
Here's the all : Even the righteousness of God which is by faith Of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe : for there is no difference : for all have sinned , and come short of the glory of God ; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus : Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood , to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past , through the forbearance of God ; to declare , I say , at this time his righteousness : that he might be just , and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus .
That doesn't answer Manna's question. You are saying that the all in "not many" is all those by their own free will believe. Is that correct?
If the text that Manna quoted had said "not many answered" then you might have a point but it says "not many called".
_____________________________
After conversion we need bruising so that reeds may know themselves to be reeds, and not oaks.- Richard Sibbes
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 8:04:59 PM
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umcbee
Posts: 1687
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
Sounds like the dumbed down gospel that God only saves those He has elected for salvation .
Believing that you believe is NOT belief...
That's about as clear as mud.....
You mean I can believe that I don't believe and its still belief ?
Does your mind have anything to do with your belief ; or , maybe your belief resides in your nose , or maybe your ear , or maybe you should energize your mind before you energize your mouth......errrrrr rather your fingers , errrr nose , errr ear's......errrrr whatever you energize to believe with .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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