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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 8:46:12 PM
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umcbee
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
Manna
quote:
Where is the all in "not many" ?
bee
quote:
Here's the all : Even the righteousness of God which is by faith Of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe : for there is no difference : for all have sinned , and come short of the glory of God ; being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus : Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood , to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past , through the forbearance of God ; to declare , I say , at this time his righteousness : that he might be just , and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus .
That doesn't answer Manna's question. You are saying that the all in "not many" is all those by their own free will believe. Is that correct?
If the text that Manna quoted had said "not many answered" then you might have a point but it says "not many called".
It says not many wise according to the flesh , not many mighty , not many noble , are called . But first Paul said "For you see your calling , brethern , that " : meaning that not many of the Corinthians called (which means invited) that Paul was writing too were wise according to the flesh , nor mighty , nor noble . It is a statement to a local church , not a sweeping theological statement to all mankind . And it could very well be said that it was "not many answered" the call ; it no where says "not many called period " : which it would have to say for manna's and your interpretation to make sense .
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 9:14:32 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
God gave mankind "equipment" which includes both "on" and "off" switches. There is no "ability/inability" issue. We have both switches, and are free to push either one. Are you able to comprehend that?
Since God equipped amd furnished everyone as He saw fit, and as it pleased Him, all are destined to use the equipment or lack thereof. You are not free to turn on what you don't have.
You missed what I said. I said everyone was given an "on" and "off" button. Your theology that is comfortable with puppetry cannot grasp that.
quote:
Now you are sounding like God made everyone identical (like robots), and He is conducting an AI experiment.
No, I'm not. Seems you just cannot grasp what I say. Everyone having both "on" and "off" buttons isn't being "identical". It's no different that everyone having 2 eyes, 1 nose, 2 arms, 2 legs, 1 head, 2 hands, and 2 feet. I suppose you would call that "identical". 
quote:
Your position always has man calling the shots
Wrong again. My position has man responding to God's "call". Why you seem to see my position as "calling the shots" is just baffling.
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...while God is WAITING for something to happen.
You mean kind of like 2 Pet 3:9?
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If you believe God does not cause, then you must believe man causes.
First, God does NOT cause sin. Man, through his free will causes sin, just as Satan did first.
Second, man believes through his own God given intellect. But that faith in no way is "causative" of his salvation. God is the cause of man's salvation. I really do not understand why you cannot grasp that very simple concept.
quote:
That belief is riddled with uncertainty, whereas God does exactly what He says.
The certainty can be seen clearly in John 6:40. My position has no uncertainty in it. I am, however, quite uncertain as to why you think my position is riddled with uncertainty.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 9:18:37 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Since I have successfully defended the fact that Christ died for everyone, how in the world could you even suggest that the gospel is limited in scope?
Because Paul says it by The Holy Spirit ??? 
Please explain what this means. I was referring to Rom 3:23-25 as basis for everyone being able to be justified through faith.
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God chooses SOME out of ALL...not potential all.
Exactly correct. God chooses only believers, which is "some out of all".
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Where is the all in "not many" ?
The better question is who is the "all" in Rom 3:23? From 3:9, it is everyone in the human race, and Paul indicated that they all can be justified through faith.
quote:
Romanticizing God sounds nice, but the work of Christ on the earth was NOT to save everyone.
The work of Christ on earth was to die for everyone, to make a propitiation for the sins of the whole world, per 1 John 2:2. That is very clear.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 9:22:51 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
RWE: John 3:13
No one has ever gone into heaven except the one
who came from heaven—the Son of Man.
Bee, there is no disputing that no one was in heaven before Jesus ascended.
UMCBEE: Yes , there is plenty to dispute that .
Any Scripture you find cannot contradict the one I cited,
which, BTW, require no interpretation, but merely a
basic understanding of English.
Gee, rw, that's my argument for Luke 8:12,13; that some believers won't continue to believe or produce fruit yet are saved. You don't accept my argument on the very same basis as what you are arguing with Bee about. What's up with that?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 9:40:21 PM
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FreeGrace
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Jesus plainly said they believed in John 2:23-24, too.
Yes, He did. They did believe, and were saved.
Can you show me anywhere in the text of John where He said they weren't saved?
My interpretation is based on the presupposition that Scripture says
many believed in miracles of Christ but were not saved.
In the first place, any "presupposition" is a very danger thing to hang your hat or theology on. It's best to stick with the plain words written for understanding.
Second, I don't know what you mean by "believed in miracles of Christ". In any case, that is never considered salvific faith anyway. So I don't know what point you are making. Many did see the miracles of Christ, and they still rejected Him as Messiah.
quote:
2:42 also tells us that one can "believe" but not believe savingly:
They said to the woman, "We no longer believe just because of
what you said; now we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this
man really is the Savior of the world."
I have no idea why you think this verse indicates that one can believe "but not savingly". Can you explain why you think it indicates that?
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They believed "in" him, as in "in his miracles". It was a superficial kind
of believing, not in who Jesus was, but in what he did.
When John notes that people believed in Him, he always meant savingly, since that's exactly what he was urging everyone he wrote to to do, to believe in Him. The phrase means believe savingly.
Your use of the term "superficial" is another one of those added terms that the Bible never uses. You have no support from Scripture that one can "believe superficially", since the Bible never says it. Remember, you have admitted to having [b[]presuppositions.
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There was uncertainty as to the crowds commitment to him as Messiah.
Please show that specifically. I don't see it.
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Faith in the works of Jesus is not an adequate, persevering belief.
No one says it is. But the Bible never speaks of an "inadequate belief" either.
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The Scripture tells us that even though they "knew him", it was
not as a savior,
You seem mixed up. It was said of Jesus that He "knew them". They believed in Him.
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and as a result he did not "entrust himself to them" meaning
they were not saved, all in one sentence.
It is your "presupposition" that is getting into the way. The phrase "not entrusting Himself to them" doesn't mean they weren't saved. It means He didn't trust them. There's a big difference.
God knows who believes in a saving way and then he does his work of salvation.
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I would venture to guess that if I professed believing in Christ and
he did not entrust himself to me, I am not saved.
While you can guess all you want, the Bible is clear enough that we don't have to guess or to hold on to presuppositions.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/6/2008 9:40:36 PM
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tdd1975
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quote:
It says not many wise according to the flesh , not many mighty , not many noble , are called . But first Paul said "For you see your calling , brethern , that " : meaning that not many of the Corinthians called (which means invited) that Paul was writing too were wise according to the flesh , nor mighty , nor noble . It is a statement to a local church , not a sweeping theological statement to all mankind .
(1 Corinthians 1:20) Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
That is a pretty sweeping theological statement. Paul continues this subject for the next several verses and then he say in verse 26 For ye see your calling or the ESV puts it consider your calling. In other words Paul begins with a sweeping theological statement and then he tells the Corinthians to use themselves as an example of that truth.
quote:
And it could very well be said that it was "not many answered" the call ; it no where says "not many called period " : which it would have to say for manna's and your interpretation to make sense .
That would change the whole meaning of the verse. God has chosen the poor to be rich in faith not the mighty, noble, or wise.
_____________________________
After conversion we need bruising so that reeds may know themselves to be reeds, and not oaks.- Richard Sibbes
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 12:36:15 AM
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Destiny7777
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I have been reading the posts and am a bit stumped by the Parable of the Sower. I can clearly see FG's point that: quote:
Jesus plainly told us the second soil believed after He equated believing with being saved. However, I don't know of any farmer that considers a seed that sprouts and then dries up and dies a success. The whole purpose of planting a seed is to get the fruit, right? (And I've got in the back of my mind the fig tree with no fruit - Matt. 21:18 "Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered.") Foliage with no fruit doesn't seem to be acceptable with Christ.
Maybe I have missed a more in depth discussion of this parable. If anyone has the post numbers I would love to go back and read it.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 7:10:12 AM
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SureHope
Posts: 1588
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
You keep arguing against that which you have already unwittingly admitted to – this is what you fail to admit.
When you choose to sin, who is it that is unwilling not to sin? It is you – no one else to blame but yourself. If you were in fact willing not to sin you wouldn’t sin.
I am not saying that those who are born again do not have a desire to live holy and to love God more wholly and more consistently, but that is not the issue. The issue is that no on is fully willing, thus not able to obey God's ultimate command.
Great post Sure !!!
If I was willing & able I wouldn't need Christ-
Manna,
Yes, you’re right. We have all been unwilling to obey God and thus have been unable because of our unwillingness. A person who, at the core of his being, does not trust God is not able to trust Him whom he is unwilling to trust. One must be willing to trust Christ. But natural man is not willing; he suppresses the truth in unrighteousness. He is so steeped in his sinful rebellion and enmity against God that he is unable to trust in Him whom he naturally is unwilling to trust. It is because of fallen man's persistent rejection of God's authority that man is unable to trust God in and of himself. When you are unwilling to trust someone you cannot choose to trust him. Why? Because you are unwilling to trust him. Man's inability consists in his unwillingness.
A person who is unwilling to be truthful about fundamental things will be unable to deal with those things that depend upon the fundamental. Unwillingness to honor God at the core will always make a person unable to honor God in any area. The inability is a moral inability based upon unwillingness (sin).
Thank God that He gives the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. Thank God He gives the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ Jesus. When we see Him for whom He is in truth, we trust Him, love Him and are willing to take up or cross and follow Him.
Mercy = we don't get what we deserve because of our unwillingness
Grace = we get just the opposite of what we deserve in spite of our unwillingness - God gives us light to see the glory of Christ in the gospel which makes us willing and thus able to trust Him whom is gloriously trustworthy.
Blessings,
SH
< Message edited by SureHope -- 5/7/2008 7:29:49 AM >
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 7:56:02 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Destiny7777
I have been reading the posts and am a bit stumped by the Parable of the Sower. I can clearly see FG's point that: quote:
Jesus plainly told us the second soil believed after He equated believing with being saved. However, I don't know of any farmer that considers a seed that sprouts and then dries up and dies a success.
Correct. But the point of the parable is to be a successful believer.
quote:
The whole purpose of planting a seed is to get the fruit, right? (And I've got in the back of my mind the fig tree with no fruit - Matt. 21:18 "Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19 Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered.") Foliage with no fruit doesn't seem to be acceptable with Christ.
Again, correct. That was Jesus' point. We ARE to be productive. One of the problems with reformed thinking is they presuppose that to be a believer means/demands/guarantees production. Yet, ask any farmer; does a seed produce fruit immediately? The answer is never. The argument is about whether all believers will produce fruit. I believe the parable says no.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 8:41:42 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Destiny7777
I have been reading the posts and am a bit stumped by the Parable of the Sower. I can clearly see FG's point that: quote:
Jesus plainly told us the second soil believed after He equated believing with being saved.
Thank you for seeing my point. Others on this thread seem unable to.
quote:
Maybe I have missed a more in depth discussion of this parable. If anyone has the post numbers I would love to go back and read it.
I suggest you scroll to the bottom of the page and in the "search term" box, type in "parable of the soils". You will get 2 pages of posts. I've been discussing the parable since March quite a bit. For starters, #27710 on 3/18/08, #27765, and #27893 should help. There are also some posts from 2006 in there, but the current discussion began around Mar 08.
Hope this helps.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 8:45:07 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1698
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
It says not many wise according to the flesh , not many mighty , not many noble , are called . But first Paul said "For you see your calling , brethern , that " : meaning that not many of the Corinthians called (which means invited) that Paul was writing too were wise according to the flesh , nor mighty , nor noble . It is a statement to a local church , not a sweeping theological statement to all mankind .
(1 Corinthians 1:20) Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?
That is a pretty sweeping theological statement. Paul continues this subject for the next several verses and then he say in verse 26 For ye see your calling or the ESV puts it consider your calling. In other words Paul begins with a sweeping theological statement and then he tells the Corinthians to use themselves as an example of that truth.
The sweeping theological statement is that man in his wisdom or by the worlds wisdom cannot save himself .
quote:
And it could very well be said that it was "not many answered" the call ; it no where says "not many called period " : which it would have to say for manna's and your interpretation to make sense .
quote:
That would change the whole meaning of the verse. God has chosen the poor to be rich in faith not the mighty, noble, or wise.
It lines up perfectly with : For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God , it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe . Which answers nicely that "not many wise , mighty , or noble answered" . The wisdom of man and the wisdom which is of the world believes that it is foolishness that something as simple as believing the message preached (the gospel) can save anyone .
< Message edited by umcbee -- 5/7/2008 8:58:00 AM >
_____________________________
kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 9:27:14 AM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2066
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Destiny,
Parables are limited in scope of its application, for humans possess some qualities of a plant, but not all of them, so it’s not a complete analogy. I believe in salvation by faith alone regardless of produced fruit/works based on the Bible entirety, not just parables, but they are useful to prove the point as well:
What symbolizes a believer in the parable of the soils? A Plant? or a Plant with Fruit?I think just a plant, otherwise salvation is not by faith alone but faith +works( plant +fruit)
Sure, we know the tree by it's fruit but fruit is just a way to generally identify the tree.Fruit doesnt make the tree what it is. Apples hanged on a Christmas tree don’t turn a pine into an apple tree.
If in some years an apple tree produces no fruit due to spring frost –the lack of apples at that year doesn’t mean it's not an ap. tree anymore.When trees are still small neither good no bad tree is identifiable; for neither produces fruit yet. That however doesn’t mean apple tr. is not apple, and poisonous tree is not what it is just based on the lack of identifying it fruit.
Similarly, my citizenship is proven by my passport (or my big mouth;) But if I lose my Passport (or shut up for a change) my identity is not changed. Lack of identifiers – be it godly fruit or proper documents, doesn’t change the essence of the person.Child of God is by birth not by proof of good deeds, even they do usually accompany saved person.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 11:57:07 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
Destiny,
Parables are limited in scope of its application, for humans possess some qualities of a plant, but not all of them, so it’s not a complete analogy. I believe in salvation by faith alone regardless of produced fruit/works based on the Bible entirety, not just parables, but they are useful to prove the point as well:
What symbolizes a believer in the parable of the soils? A Plant? or a Plant with Fruit?I think just a plant, otherwise salvation is not by faith alone but faith +works( plant +fruit)
Sure, we know the tree by it's fruit but fruit is just a way to generally identify the tree.Fruit doesnt make the tree what it is. Apples hanged on a Christmas tree don’t turn a pine into an apple tree.
If in some years an apple tree produces no fruit due to spring frost –the lack of apples at that year doesn’t mean it's not an ap. tree anymore.When trees are still small neither good no bad tree is identifiable; for neither produces fruit yet. That however doesn’t mean apple tr. is not apple, and poisonous tree is not what it is just based on the lack of identifying it fruit.
Similarly, my citizenship is proven by my passport (or my big mouth;) But if I lose my Passport (or shut up for a change) my identity is not changed. Lack of identifiers – be it godly fruit or proper documents, doesn’t change the essence of the person.Child of God is by birth not by proof of good deeds, even they do usually accompany saved person.
Del, as usual, you are profound. Thanks for the post.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 12:36:35 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1588
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Del,
quote:
What symbolizes a believer in the parable of the soils? A Plant? or a Plant with Fruit?I think just a plant, otherwise salvation is not by faith alone but faith +works( plant +fruit)
I see your logic, but in my mind there is a gap in it. Plant + Fruit does not necessarily mean faith + works for salvation.
Salvation is by faith alone and true faith will produce fruit. Salvation is not dependent upon fruit, but fruit is dependent upon salvation. Genuine salvation that is received by faith alone will produce fruit.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 2:23:33 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
Del,
quote:
What symbolizes a believer in the parable of the soils? A Plant? or a Plant with Fruit?I think just a plant, otherwise salvation is not by faith alone but faith +works( plant +fruit)
I see your logic, but in my mind there is a gap in it. Plant + Fruit does not necessarily mean faith + works for salvation.
Salvation is by faith alone and true faith will produce fruit.
If I may respond; here is the problem. Your statement is a presupposition, not Scripture. What Jesus said in Luke 8:12 and 13 contradicts what you think.
quote:
Salvation is not dependent upon fruit, but fruit is dependent upon salvation.
This is true, and no one has argued otherwise. Only a believer can produce the fruit that Jesus speaks of.
quote:
Genuine salvation that is received by faith alone will produce fruit.
A presupposition only. Jesus' words actually contradict your presupposition.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 3:47:43 PM
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Destiny7777
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quote:
I suggest you scroll to the bottom of the page and in the "search term" box, type in "parable of the soils". You will get 2 pages of posts. I've been discussing the parable since March quite a bit. For starters, #27710 on 3/18/08, #27765, and #27893 should help. There are also some posts from 2006 in there, but the current discussion began around Mar 08.
Thanks!! I'll go back and read these.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 4:04:08 PM
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Destiny7777
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quote:
What symbolizes a believer in the parable of the soils? A Plant? or a Plant with Fruit?I think just a plant, otherwise salvation is not by faith alone but faith +works( plant +fruit)
For me the 2 possibilities seem to be either a believer = plant OR a believer = fruit.
In verse 14 of Luke 8, the seed among thorns, belief is not mentioned, but there is still a sproutling. Do you believe this person was also saved? I have some other questions, but I think I'll go back an read the part of the discussion I missed first to see if my questions have already been answered.
Oh, and thanks for the admonition about reading more into parables than is there. That is so me!! LOL
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 5:00:33 PM
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Odeliya
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That's what i meant, Destiny, that parables are limited..
Technically if we start picking apart all accounts of parable of the soils in various gospels they are not quite matching each other...
Hebrew's way of explaining things is not quite as linear , it's multileveled, you could see more or less in it, that is why we make good lawyers, teachers, con arts and politicians :) we can speak to various public at the same time and confuse everybody ..... :)
Fruit, if we look at it closely, is always present in a true believer, all on this thread already agreed on that. Acc to Gal.5 faith and love and humbleness,all that etc.are fruit which is and have to be present to a degree once a person truly believes. He is humbled, he loves God and has faith , he truly repents - all that is truly fruit of HS.
But as for evident fruit to others- that can be missing or virtually invisible. That is what basically under debate - how much visible fruit means you are a believer?
Can we even put a "fruit minimum" that can serve as a qualifier? Bible says no, for example it says that covetous(all here, i bet, at times) idolatrious, etc have no part on the Kingdom. Do you ever, ever covet anything you dont really need? Acc. to Bible defenition of adultery all male part of youth group i go to.. lets not go into that..
< Message edited by Odeliya -- 5/7/2008 5:07:39 PM >
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 5:12:06 PM
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Odeliya
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quote:
Salvation is by faith alone and true faith will produce fruit. Salvation is not dependent upon fruit, but fruit is dependent upon salvation. Genuine salvation that is received by faith alone will produce fruit.
Yes, you are right.
Amen. As I just mentioned in post to Destiny –we agreed on that. I owe you the answer to another post, I remember. Please forgive the delay, brother SH.
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 7:17:00 PM
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Destiny7777
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quote:
Salvation is by faith alone and true faith will produce fruit. Salvation is not dependent upon fruit, but fruit is dependent upon salvation. Genuine salvation that is received by faith alone will produce fruit.
quote:
Yes, you are right.
Amen. As I just mentioned in post to Destiny –we agreed on that. I owe you the answer to another post, I remember. Please forgive the delay, brother SH.
This quote is from FG in 27766 - quote:
If you will carefully note Luke 8:13, you will note that the second soil received the Word with joy. Joy is listed as fruit of the Spirit. iow, the second soil demonstrated fruit initially.
In Mark's version, the seed sown among thorns is not spoken of as having belief, and is specifially called "unfruitful", yet it also sprouted. "18 Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; 19 but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful." So I'm thinking this person was not a believer even though it initially grew a little?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 7:29:54 PM
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john_mark
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FreeGrace,
if i may join in this discussion again i have something i want to ask of you.
the parable of the sower is given in the 3 synoptic gospels. each version is slightly different. do you think that these are three seperate occasions or are they all representations of the same event. if they represent the same event, can you place the words of one account over the words found in the other accounts? if so with what reasoning?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 8:46:33 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Destiny7777
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Salvation is by faith alone and true faith will produce fruit. Salvation is not dependent upon fruit, but fruit is dependent upon salvation. Genuine salvation that is received by faith alone will produce fruit.
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Yes, you are right.
Amen. As I just mentioned in post to Destiny –we agreed on that. I owe you the answer to another post, I remember. Please forgive the delay, brother SH.
This quote is from FG in 27766 - quote:
If you will carefully note Luke 8:13, you will note that the second soil received the Word with joy. Joy is listed as fruit of the Spirit. iow, the second soil demonstrated fruit initially.
In Mark's version, the seed sown among thorns is not spoken of as having belief, and is specifially called "unfruitful", yet it also sprouted. "18 Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word; 19 but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful." So I'm thinking this person was not a believer even though it initially grew a little?
If you remember that in 3 soils the seed sprouted into a plant, "growing a little" cannot be brushed aside as different than a plant that grew up to maturity.
I think one big difference between me and those who have been arguing with me is that I view the parable as levels of maturity among various "kinds" of believers. For example, the second soil essentially quit believing. Why? Because of "time of temptation". The third soil was choked out by thorns, which represents the "worries and riches and pleasures of this life".
It is interesting to note that the end of v.14 says "and bring no fruit to maturity", which supports my view. You have to have a plant before you have fruit, but the reformed view is that there will be fruit in each and every believer. Since the Bible is clear that we are to grow up in our faith, their view seems rather contrary to Scripture.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 8:58:51 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
FreeGrace,
if i may join in this discussion again i have something i want to ask of you.
I welcome any questions from you.
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the parable of the sower is given in the 3 synoptic gospels. each version is slightly different.
Seems to me that the Matt and Mark versions are rather parallel.
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do you think that these are three seperate occasions or are they all representations of the same event.
I think they all are the same event, told by 3 different human writers.
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if they represent the same event, can you place the words of one account over the words found in the other accounts?
Do you mean one account can "trump" another account? No, I believe all Scripture is perfectly harmonious and there is no contradiction within Scripture.
I think that all the parables still say the same thing, even though neither matt or Mark's account use the word "believe" for the first or second soil. What is the same is what stunts the growth of the plants in the second and third soils.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 9:12:20 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 355
Joined: 2/12/2008
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The sweeping theological statement is that man in his wisdom or by the worlds wisdom cannot save himself .
agreed
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It lines up perfectly with : For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God , it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe . Which answers nicely that "not many wise , mighty , or noble answered" .
Not many answered and not many called are two totally different things.
I do agree with you that it is faith that seperates but apart from the quickening work of the Holy Spirit all of us will lean to our own worldly wisdom that comes to us naturally.
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The wisdom of man and the wisdom which is of the world believes that it is foolishness that something as simple as believing the message preached (the gospel) can save anyone .
agreed
_____________________________
After conversion we need bruising so that reeds may know themselves to be reeds, and not oaks.- Richard Sibbes
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/7/2008 9:24:34 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2066
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Do you mean one account can "trump" another account? No, I believe all Scripture is perfectly harmonious and there is no contradiction within Scripture.
I think that all the parables still say the same thing, even though neither matt or Mark's account use the word "believe" for the first or second soil. What is the same is what stunts the growth of the plants in the second and third soils.
excellent point, br. FG!
humans are humans. Versions of parables aren’t written by lawyers as a contract, but by regular people,so we cant try to dissect every word but should look at it as a whole.
Especially that former tax collector guy, apostle Matthew’s account – that is a typical IRS employee, allright. His sower story is so generic and brief, you got to use your own imagination to get the full picture.
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