|
Users viewing this topic:
none
|
|
Login  | |
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 8:36:39 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 5067
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Destiny7777
The discussion on the passage from I Corinthians prompted me to go back and read the entire passage. Quite fascinating, and while I appreciate the "All" passages quoted by FreeGrace in response, I - like Manna I think - am very interested to know how umcbee and FreeGrace understand THIS particular passage, (especially the highlighted portions). Thanks in Advance
I Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. 26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
I'm not sure what you are looking for in v.18-30. Seems clear that Paul notes that the gospel is foolish to Greeks, in that they couldn't grasp that God could die, and a stumbling block to the Jews, who considered Jesus a blasphemer, claiming to be God.
The word "called" means an invitation, not a choosing, as some think. The gospel is an invitation to believe.
If you were looking for something else, please clarify. Thanks.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 8:41:58 AM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Destiny7777
The discussion on the passage from I Corinthians prompted me to go back and read the entire passage. Quite fascinating, and while I appreciate the "All" passages quoted by FreeGrace in response, I - like Manna I think - am very interested to know how umcbee and FreeGrace understand THIS particular passage, (especially the highlighted portions). Thanks in Advance
I Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. 26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
I'm not sure what you are looking for in v.18-30. Seems clear that Paul notes that the gospel is foolish to Greeks, in that they couldn't grasp that God could die, and a stumbling block to the Jews, who considered Jesus a blasphemer, claiming to be God.
The word "called" means an invitation, not a choosing, as some think. The gospel is an invitation to believe.
If you were looking for something else, please clarify. Thanks.
We get it...you won't or can't reply(and we know why !  )
_____________________________
The church of Jesus Christ is about Jesus Christ.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 8:54:25 AM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
If you answered yes to either of these then you are right back where you started. God couldn't have chosen believers because apart from Him there are none.
Well said tdd ! ...The enigmatic adherence to this un-Biblical line of reasoning is really quite troubling. We have The Bible being re-written to OVER-emphasize man's sovereignty in God's work of salvation. No one can explain to us how man believes without God ? And why would God choose those for belief if thet ALREADY believe ? Makes no sense because it's carnality to the max. This thinking feeds the flesh, the ego, the freewillers, the "I am a god" folk, those who like to feel like they cooperate with God because they are soooo compatible with God.
_____________________________
The church of Jesus Christ is about Jesus Christ.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 8:58:01 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 5067
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
To continue in the context, v.45 says "It is written in the prophets, and they shall all be taught of God. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me." Seems clear to me that only the ones who heard and learned from the Father come to Jesus. This passage does not support reformed theology, especially since Rom 3:23-25 clearly contradicts it.
Actually, to continue in the context you would have to admit that only those the Father draws are those who "shall be taught of God."
No, I do not admit that. The verse clearly says "all shall be taught of God". In the OT, we know that God's principles and commands were taught to everyone. The passage in John 6 notes that it is those "who have heard AND learned from the Father, come to Me". Here is the point: ALL have been taught, but ONLY those who actually paid attention and learned come to Christ.
Here are some verses that clearly demonstrate that those who don't hear or see do so from their own choice and freedom.
2 Chron 33:10 "they paid no attention"
Neh 9:17 "refused to listen, did not remember, became stubborn"
Neh 9:24 "did not listen to commandments"
Prov 1:24-32 "I called, you refused, no one paid attention"
Jer 6:17 "we will NOT walk (in the good way)"
Jer 13:10 "refused to listen
Jer 26:5-6 "you have not listend
Jer 35;15 "have not incluned your ear or listened to Me"
Jer 36:31 "they did not listen"
Jer 44:16 "we are NOT going to listen to you"
Ezek 3:7 "house of Israel will NOT be willing to listen to Me"
Zeph 3:2 "heeded no voice, accepted no instruction, did not trust in the Lord"
Zech 1:4 "they did NOT listen to Me"
Isa 5:12 "they do NOT pay attention to the deeds of the Lord"
This is the reason people don't hear or see. They pay no attention, or refuse to do so.
quote:
quote:
I expected this one as well. This passage quotes a Hebrew idiom, which speaks of the fact that the people weren't listening or looking. That's why they didn't see or hear. This verse doesn't support the theory that God closed their eyes or ears .
That's not what a plain reading of the text suggests. It suggests that they they do not see or hear because God has permitted them, according to his will, to continue in their natural state of unbelief.
In the light of the verses I just gave you above, you have to ignore what a Hebrew idiom means. People don't hear or see because they don't pay attention or refuse to listen.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 9:00:53 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 5067
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
You apparently have no clue as to who Turretinfan was. I am only pointing out that he himself called Calvinism a philosophy.
Well, since I assumed that he is human, I was merely pointing out that your flawed reasoning led to a guilt-by-association fallacy (ad hom) because you assumed the position of another poster based on Turretinfan's position.
I have no idea why you think I was leading to "guilt-by-association" of anyone. I only pointed out that one of the most staunch 5 pointers called Calvinism a philosophy. That was my ONLY point.
quote:
quote:
Because that would be about the stupidest thing to do. Why do you even ask such a silly question as that?
If you follow the fall line of your line of your reasoning then you are really left with no other conclusion given that you seem to claim that Calvinists follow an errant philosophy (according to you) rather than the Bible.
I've never suggested that Calvinists aren't saved, which is what you seemed to be implying. Or do I misunderstand you?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 9:05:47 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 5067
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
Yes, He did. And for what purpose? Here is what the whole verse says in Rom 11:32, "For God has shut up all (everyone) in disobedience that He might show mercy to all (everyone)." The word in your translation for "unbelief" is apeitheia, which means disobedience.
The verse tells us that the whole world is disobedient and "he might show mercy to all of them".
Is the KJV a reliable translation or not when it translates the word faith?
Isn't unbelief the mother of all disobedience?
If you answered yes to either of these then you are right back where you started. God couldn't have chosen believers because apart from Him there are none.
I stand by my statement that the verse is telling us that the whole world is disobedient and He might show mercy to all of them.
quote:
quote:
The answer is "yes". Man, though fallen and sinful, was graced by God with the intellectual ability to understand the gospel and believe.
Human philosophy. Nothing more. Nothing less.
Your opinion only, clearly.
quote:
The testimony of God regarding fallen man is quite different.
(Romans 3:11) no one understands; no one seeks for God.
Are you aware that Paul was quoting from Psa 14 and 53 when he wrote Rom 3:11. The context of Psa 14 and 53 refers to fools, who say in their hearts, "there is no God". Why would a fool search or seek for God? That would be "foolish".
The entire human race (each and every Jew and Greek) are all under sin (v.9).
No fool understands or seeks for God (v.11).
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 9:07:04 AM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
quote:
To continue in the context, v.45 says "It is written in the prophets, and they shall all be taught of God. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me." Seems clear to me that only the ones who heard and learned from the Father come to Jesus. This passage does not support reformed theology, especially since Rom 3:23-25 clearly contradicts it.
Actually, to continue in the context you would have to admit that only those the Father draws are those who "shall be taught of God." So yes, everyone who has "heard and learned from the Father..." comes to Christ but only those whom God draws are those who hear and learn.
No one can to ME (Jesus)...UNLESS The Father draw him...John 6:44 (Amplified Bible)...
44No one is able to come to Me unless the Father Who sent Me attracts and draws him and gives him the desire to come to Me, and [then] I will raise him up [from the dead] at the last day. Sounds like some want us to believe that a man can randomly without direction, guidance, or The Holy Spirit - bumble, fumble, and stumble his way into the Kingdom of God. 
_____________________________
The church of Jesus Christ is about Jesus Christ.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 9:11:51 AM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Destiny7777
The discussion on the passage from I Corinthians prompted me to go back and read the entire passage. Quite fascinating, and while I appreciate the "All" passages quoted by FreeGrace in response, I - like Manna I think - am very interested to know how umcbee and FreeGrace understand THIS particular passage, (especially the highlighted portions). Thanks in Advance
Won't happen friend...but let's see what they conjure up ! 
_____________________________
The church of Jesus Christ is about Jesus Christ.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 9:19:46 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 5067
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
FG is saying a Christian's standing with God can be positional and not relational
because a Christian can have no relationship with God and be saved.
No, you just keep misunderstanding what I say. I even used the example of a human relationshipo between spouses or parent-child. The relationship is intact evefn though there may be no fellowship between the two.
Once we are saved, there is a PERMANENT relationship with God. We become His child. Like DNA, humanly speaking. That cannot change. But our fellowship can be either on or off, depending on our heart's attitude.
quote:
If you teach this to a new Christian, one not truly saved would be
assured but tragically deceived, don't you see?
Having just noted "a new Christian", what do you mean by "one not truly saved". That is contradictory. Please clarify.
quote:
A Christian women who has an abortion is possible, I agree.
How about a Christian woman who has aborted six babies and is
not repentant or feeling guilty- still saved because she claims
she "once believed"? Yes, according to FG.
You continute to misunderstand me. What have I said about what one "claims"? My ONLY emphasis is on what one has believed, not claimed to believe. Why can't you get this straight? I've had to correct you many times, and here I am, doing it again. What's with that?
quote:
I am saying as a pattern of life and as an ongoing lifestyle, how
can such a one be saved - isn't he a mere professor and not a doer?
You are "merely" a judger of others. Jesus clearly noted that some believers will not continue to believe or produce fruit, yet you reject what He said.
quote:
My stubbornness comes from the fact that I see Christianity in America
as something I almost despise anymore. Fruitless, supposedly mature
Christians who are NOT separate from the world, who have NO desire
to learn God's word, who treat church like a social club, etc.
You need to get your eyes of the idiots, and back onto the Lord, who is the One who sustains you. Why let the idiocy of others bother you? Let God take care of them. That's His work, not yours.
quote:
They are comfortable having no witness, their testimony is a date, place and time, and in reality are saved by a doctrine, not God! When we are saved by a doctrine and not God, of course, we don't necessarily see spiritual growth,
sanctification, etc. as inevitable because our salvation is man-made.
You seem so confused. To say "when we are saved by a doctrine" demonstrates your confusion. We are saved only by God, throughf aith in His Son. Can you understand this?
quote:
Do you think it is right to teach a new Christian that there really
is no definite expectation of a new life?
No one has ever said this or even hinted at this. This is only your confusion and misunderstanding of what has been said.
quote:
I have concluded man simply cannot be confident they know him
based on what they supposedly "believe". This is why the Bible says
we must believe in our heart, and not just our mind (Rom 10:9).
Please demonstrate how you would explain that to someone, believing from the heart rather than from the mind. How do you differentiate the two?
quote:
As a result, I see the doctrine of perseverance for what it is:
true faith perseveres. Man cannot undo what God has done.
You have to reject what Jesus taught, then.
quote:
Sorry for the length. I can't believe I spent 45 minutes saying
something permanent happens when we encounter Jesus Christ.
I agree with you, rw, even though you seem to only misunderstand me. Regeneration IS permanent. Why do you continue to think that I think otherwise?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 9:20:17 AM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
Here's the passage:
23"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished."
So you embrace universalism as your assertion would mean that since all is all without exception it would also mean that all "are justified freely...." ? You've said it like this...
If one is justified one is saved, and since all sin, all are justified and therefore all are saved.
Some subscribe to "POTENTIAL" universalism. That makes God uncertain, uninvolved, careless, impotent, a bystander, and a taunter and teaser of men.
Does God say, "I MIGHT save you !!!" anywhere in The Bible. WOW...that fills me with confidence and security. Is God really waiting on me to believe so
He can choose me ? Yeah, that's the ticket... 
_____________________________
The church of Jesus Christ is about Jesus Christ.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 9:23:41 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 5067
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Destiny7777
The discussion on the passage from I Corinthians prompted me to go back and read the entire passage. Quite fascinating, and while I appreciate the "All" passages quoted by FreeGrace in response, I - like Manna I think - am very interested to know how umcbee and FreeGrace understand THIS particular passage, (especially the highlighted portions). Thanks in Advance
I Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate." 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand miraculous signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than man's strength. 26 Brothers, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things--and the things that are not--to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.
I'm not sure what you are looking for in v.18-30. Seems clear that Paul notes that the gospel is foolish to Greeks, in that they couldn't grasp that God could die, and a stumbling block to the Jews, who considered Jesus a blasphemer, claiming to be God.
The word "called" means an invitation, not a choosing, as some think. The gospel is an invitation to believe.
If you were looking for something else, please clarify. Thanks.
We get it...you won't or can't reply(and we know why ! )
Since I began with "I'm not sure what you are looking for" and then asked if they were looking for something else, please clarify, why do you think that I am avoiding something? Your snide comment is quite transparent, and unnecessary on this thread.
Since you think I am avoiding something, why don't you just come out with it? I've already given permission for more input.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 9:28:29 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 5067
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
If you answered yes to either of these then you are right back where you started. God couldn't have chosen believers because apart from Him there are none.
Well said tdd ! ...The enigmatic adherence to this un-Biblical line of reasoning is really quite troubling. We have The Bible being re-written to OVER-emphasize man's sovereignty in God's work of salvation.
This is the most outrageious and ridiculous statement you could make. No one ont hiss thread has said anything close to what you "infer" here. Are you trying to purposely mischaracterize other's positions, or are you just not able to follow what has been said? Seems one or the other.
quote:
No one can explain to us how man believes without God ?
Because no one thinks that man believes without God. You ARE demonstrating that you aren't able to follow what has been said. John 16:8,9 clearly show that the Holy Spirit convincts the world of sin, righteousness, and judgment. Without those, no one would believe.
[quoe] And why would God choose those for belief if thet ALREADY believe ?
God doesn't "choose those for belief". That would be a theology of puppetry.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 9:31:54 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 5067
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
Here's the passage:
23"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished."
So you embrace universalism as your assertion would mean that since all is all without exception it would also mean that all "are justified freely...." ? You've said it like this...
If one is justified one is saved, and since all sin, all are justified and therefore all are saved.
Some subscribe to "POTENTIAL" universalism. That makes God uncertain, uninvolved, careless, impotent, a bystander, and a taunter and teaser of men.
Your blatant attempt at mischaracterization is quite poor taste. From Rom 3:23-25, we know for certain that the entire human race can be justified, but it must be through faith in His blood. Instead of the blasphemous nonsense you just spouted, it makes God universally loving, gracious, and kind.
quote:
Does God say, "I MIGHT save you !!!" anywhere in The Bible.
Yes, fairly close. Check out Rom 11:32.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 9:32:08 AM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
Then, you deny John 6:40, which tells us that God gives eternal life to whosoever believes in His Son? It doesn't tell us that God gives faith to some in order to believe in His Son.
You know I don't reject faith Free. There isn't a Reformer that is posting on here that does. The age old debate is where that faith comes from.' From the free will of fallen man or from the free grace of a merciful God.
The answer is "yes". Man, though fallen and sinful, was graced by God with the intellectual ability to understand the gospel and believe.
HUH ? Intellectual understanding of a spiritual phenomenon ? I see what cannot be seen, by my blind faculties. That's plain goofy ! 
_____________________________
The church of Jesus Christ is about Jesus Christ.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 9:38:29 AM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
God has concluded all in unbelief (Ro 11:32). If had chosen believers then he would have chosen none.
Yes, who has God covenanted with ?
If God, by His Holy Name, declared and made
a committment to save 100 % of mankind and
didn't, then He simply cannot be trusted. Can He ?
_____________________________
The church of Jesus Christ is about Jesus Christ.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 9:52:55 AM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
Some refuse to accept God's declarations and
proclamations that He has definitive limits...
Not regarding His abilities, faculties, or powers-
it would be foolish to spout off such gibberish,
rather God operates in a way that pleases and
glorifies Him, but man's pride sees it differently.
A few examples of God's LIMITING:
---Noah saved, others drowned
---Israel favored over rest of world
---Abraham called out of Mesopotamia
---Lot escapes from Sodom
---Joshua & Caleb enter Canaan
Some men are revolted and reviled by God's choice
to do what He wants with His creation. God is under no
obligation to do anything. God is not conflicted. God is
not tormented by all those who are hellbound. If we
submit to God and trust His Majesty, we accept this.
_____________________________
The church of Jesus Christ is about Jesus Christ.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 10:02:34 AM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: Conquered
Here's the passage:
23"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished."
So you embrace universalism as your assertion would mean that since all is all without exception it would also mean that all "are justified freely...." ? You've said it like this...
If one is justified one is saved, and since all sin, all are justified and therefore all are saved.
Some subscribe to "POTENTIAL" universalism. That makes God uncertain, uninvolved, careless, impotent, a bystander, and a taunter and teaser of men.
Your blatant attempt at mischaracterization is quite poor taste. From Rom 3:23-25, we know for certain that the entire human race can be justified, but it must be through faith in His blood. Instead of the blasphemous nonsense you just spouted, it makes God universally loving, gracious, and kind.
The rain falls on the righteous and the unrighteous. This principle does NOT extend to salvation.
quote:
FreeGracequote:
Does God say, "I MIGHT save you !!!" anywhere in The Bible.
Yes, fairly close. Check out Rom 11:32.
Oh boy...something might or could happen !!! Nope, the future is ALREADY written...
_____________________________
The church of Jesus Christ is about Jesus Christ.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 10:11:03 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 5067
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
God has concluded all in unbelief (Ro 11:32). If had chosen believers then he would have chosen none.
Yes, who has God covenanted with ?
If God, by His Holy Name, declared and made
a committment to save 100 % of mankind and
didn't, then He simply cannot be trusted. Can He ?
Where do you see that God "made a committment to save 100% of mankind from Rom 11:32?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 10:17:44 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 5067
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Some refuse to accept God's declarations and proclamations that He has definitive limits...
Although there are none on this thread. If you think otherwise, please name the ones you "might" be thinking of.
God certainly set limits on who He promised eternal life to. Believers only.
quote:
Not regarding His abilities, faculties, or powers-it would be foolish to spout off such gibberish, rather God operates in a way that pleases and
glorifies Him, but man's pride sees it differently.
Yes, I think "gibberish" is a good word to describe the continual mischaracterizations that are "spouted off" by some on this thread.
quote:
A few examples of God's LIMITING:
---Noah saved, others drowned
---Israel favored over rest of world
---Abraham called out of Mesopotamia
---Lot escapes from Sodom
---Joshua & Caleb enter Canaan
I'm sure everyone on this thread recognizes God's limits. It has never been in dispute.
quote:
Some men are revolted and reviled by God's choice to do what He wants with His creation.
Funny comment, as in weird. Those who recognize free will and freedom of choice perceive the reformed view as revolting, while the reformists revile and are revolted at the concept of free will and freedom of choice.
quote:
God is under no obligation to do anything.
Everyone agrees. This is not under debate. Too bad you seem confused.
quote:
God is not conflicted. God is not tormented by all those who are hellbound. If we submit to God and trust His Majesty, we accept this.
I'm sure everyone on this thread, at least, agrees. Were you trying to make a point?
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 10:19:45 AM
|
|
|
Mannamuncher
Posts: 1953
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
God has concluded all in unbelief (Ro 11:32). If had chosen believers then he would have chosen none.
Yes, who has God covenanted with ?
If God, by His Holy Name, declared and made
a committment to save 100 % of mankind and
didn't, then He simply cannot be trusted. Can He ?
Where do you see that God "made a committment to save 100% of mankind from Rom 11:32?
Where do you see it ANYWHERE in the Bible ?
_____________________________
The church of Jesus Christ is about Jesus Christ.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 10:21:02 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 5067
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Your blatant attempt at mischaracterization is quite poor taste. From Rom 3:23-25, we know for certain that the entire human race can be justified, but it must be through faith in His blood. Instead of the blasphemous nonsense you just spouted, it makes God universally loving, gracious, and kind.
The rain falls on the righteous and the unrighteous. This principle does NOT extend to salvation.
Excuse me, MM, but God's grace extends to way more than mere rain. Titus 2:11 tells us that God brings salvation to all men. You are free to reject that.
quote:
quote:
FreeGracequote:
Does God say, "I MIGHT save you !!!" anywhere in The Bible.
Yes, fairly close. Check out Rom 11:32.
Oh boy...something might or could happen !!! Nope, the future is ALREADY written...
From the human perspective, yes, everything is "might" or "could". Of course God already knows everything. Again, that is not under debate.
Your posts demonstrate your failure to realize what is under debate.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 10:22:26 AM
|
|
|
FreeGrace
Posts: 5067
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
|
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
God has concluded all in unbelief (Ro 11:32). If had chosen believers then he would have chosen none.
Yes, who has God covenanted with ?
If God, by His Holy Name, declared and made
a committment to save 100 % of mankind and
didn't, then He simply cannot be trusted. Can He ?
Where do you see that God "made a committment to save 100% of mankind from Rom 11:32?
Where do you see it ANYWHERE in the Bible ?
My point is that it isn't anywhere in the Bible. Why do you think I think He made such a commitment? You demonstrate that you are not following this thread very well.
|
|
|
|
|
RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/10/2008 10:56:54 AM
|
| | | |
Forum Tools
Printable Version
