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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 10:00:46 AM
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Diolectic
Posts: 626
Joined: 3/14/2006
From: Iowa
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGracequote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
By what CRITERIA does God elect and not elect without partiality and with out choosing arbitrarily?
Actually, it seems you've missed the "whole point" of Eph 1:4, which is that we (believers) are chosen IN HIM. That is the key. iow, only those who are IN CHRIST are chosen. How do we get to be IN HIM? Through faith in Him. That is the "selection criteria" for election Biblically. Good answer, only if you don't think that faith comes from God, if so, then there comes the question; By what CRITERIA does God choose to give faith to certain people and not others without partiality and with out choosing arbitrarily?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 11:26:44 AM
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Mannamuncher
Posts: 2609
Joined: 4/13/2005
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
Evidence of the Free Grace Carnal Mindset.
Churches are filled with UN-believers !
Those who "believe that they believe"...
Is this the justifying faith of salvation ?
Dear brother Manna, i would disagree with terminology here, for Charles Stanley is FreGrace and always was. I never seen him ,for one,promoting the carnal mindset, in any of his teaching.
Exactly the opposite, actually!
As for churches filled with unbelievers - those are present in freegraisist's Stanley and in lordshipsalvationist's Macartur congregations, i can bet money on it! :) Those are like roaches in a cheap motel, everpresent...
We actually agree my sweet, sassy, sister ! 
Churches of unbelievers are not restricted to
FGM, but they surely contribute the majority
of those who "believe that they believe". 
Many unsaved in the churches are clueless as
to what a child of God is, and have been hog
tied and corralled in a church cowboy carnival
round-up. A vertitable cattle stampede of souls.
Just because a preacher says you are saved, or
someone attends a frenzied, fanatical, freakshow
of frivolity where people "accept" Jesus, does not
mean they are saved, and neither does this "holy"
atmosphere obligate God to save anyone !!! 
_____________________________
Coincidentally...both Obama & Oprah begin with a zero...
If Jesus Christ came back today and saw what was being done in his name, he'd never stop throwing up.
Woody Allen
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 12:22:12 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1591
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
Looks like everybody moved on to interesting C/A topics, so i will try to wrap up the LS debate
at least on my part Dearest SH i owe you a response and will make in it the LS thread - i had no idea it existed, but yesterday found where you guys congregate :)
Del,
I look forward to you jumpting in at the LS thread. Your input will make it even more interesting.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 12:34:26 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2043
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quote:
ODELIYA: I know and don’t object to the need to revive
the current dead Christianity Understand, as a born-again believer, this theology is so foreign and
distasteful to me I can't begin to tell you.
All I can say to you, dear is BELIEVE that
BELIEVING is effectual to regeneration.
BELIEVE that regeneration creates a NEW BEING
with a NEW LIFE.
BELIEVE that a BELIEVER'S faith cannot die
but rather a BELIEVER'S faith perseveres.
BELIEVE that what God has done man cannot destroy!
In short BELIEVE that BELIEVING actually MEANS SOMETHING!
Know you BELIEVE because of what GOD has done,
not anything our decietful, evil, wickedn minds tell us.
As for me, I'll trust me assurance to what HE HAS DONE,
not what I "BELIEVE", thank you. We don't like that
because we are not in control.....too bad!!
A new creature is a new creature and he is identifiable
by his new life and the spiritual fruit he bears.
Telling someone they may never bear any fruit and be
assured they are saved is a lie to me.
And a recipe for worldly, defeated, dead Christianity.
FGM assures, condones and therefore promotes
worldly, carnal Christianity because it tells a
"Christian" regeneration is a secret and its
a hand-wringing God and in impotent Holy Spirit
that needs the "believer's" permission to
come to dwell and be effectual in them.
You can claim all the promises you want and be
predestined to hell because he never knew you.
Abide in me is not a "suggested spritual growth program".
It is descriptive of one who is truly saved.
He knows his sheep and his sheep know him
Does not mean his sheep can be saved and not know him
So much for the saved atheist - I spit it out of my mouth
it is so blaspemous to me.
"Unless you believed in vain" is the most appropriate
description of what our dead Christians are guilty of.
And for the vast majority, it is the fault of false teaching.
It makes the Bible optional and unnecessary and that is sickening to me.
Christianity today : Is it merely a "Jesus Club"?
Welcome to the show, come and receive your gift,
today is the day of your salvation, ABC, 1,2,3,4,
sinner's prayer (hey, we'll pray for you).......
.....and after that....HEY - the great thing about it is
.....THERE'S NO SIDE EFFECTS!!
Say you "believed" and never came back to church again?
No worries, friend, the Bible says you are saved!
YUCK!!!!!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 12:39:27 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1591
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
We all know that God doesn't justifiy everyone. Paul was clear in Rom 3 about how anyone is justified, which is through faith in His blood. My point is that he included the entire human race in who would be justified through faith. The key remains to be faith. But Paul clearly indicated that all could be justified through faith. There is potential, something the reformed keep rejecting.
You have inadvertently agreed with the reformed playbook (did you get yours at CBD also?). Romans 3 and 8 do not show that all have the potential of justification.
You make this "claim" but you haven't done one thing to back it up.
Sure I did. I quoted you and Romans 8:29-30. What else are you looking for?
quote:
quote:
If anything, your argument concerning Rom 8:29-30 proves just the opposite.
Hardly. If you would just quit reading from your playbook, you might be able to understand what Paul did say. He included the human race in who would be justified through faith. What that means is that there is no one excluded from being justified as long as they have faith in His blood. The key is "through faith in His blood", the means of justification. And since Paul included the human race in the "all" of v.23, that passage contradicts the erroneous reformed doctrine of election quite clearly.
Romans 8:29-30 states (and you have agreed) that only those who are foreknown and predestined are called. God does not call others; Only those whom He foreknew.
< Message edited by SureHope -- 5/15/2008 1:50:27 PM >
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 12:52:55 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 352
Joined: 2/12/2008
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Destiny
quote:
From what I can gather in looking at these verses the only other case in which the subject "tassoes??" themselves, it is clearly shown that they themselves are doing it. (By the simple use of the pronoun - themselves) To get that from Acts 13:48 you have to do a lot a "stretching" as I see it. Again, I am not trying to create an angry response or set myself up as an authority. I'm just saying that your explanation doesn't even seem like something you could ever arrive at by just reading the text. Even if you were reading it in the original Greek your first impulse would be to think that they were "appointed" by someone else. That does seem to be, after all, the way the word is most commonly used and in the case where it is not used that way it is clearly shown that they "tassoed" themselves.
quote:
Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed
Freegrace- The text does not specifiy who did the ordaining.
That is a really good point Destiny. While I agree with Free here that the text does not specify who did the ordaining it does specify when the ordaining took place. It took place before faith.
The bible tells us that without faith it is impossible to please God. It also tells us in Romans 10 that we don’t even call upon the Lord until we believe. We can’t even call upon the Lord without faith but somehow we are able to ordain ourselves to eternal life?
In order for Free’s interpretation to be correct it means man in his fallen condition apart from faith ordains himself for faith and eternal life.
I agree with you Destiny that the natural reading is that someone else did the ordaining. I believe that someone else is God.
< Message edited by tdd1975 -- 5/15/2008 12:59:23 PM >
_____________________________
After conversion we need bruising so that reeds may know themselves to be reeds, and not oaks.- Richard Sibbes
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 1:44:46 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1591
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
But this does not address Romans 8:29-30. In that passage it is only those who are foreknown and predestined who are called. All that are called, according to Rom 8:30, are justified.
The key is in your statement "in that passage". Bee's point that all who hear the gospel are invited or called to believe is valid and supported throughout Scripture. In the context of Rom 8, the "called" are only those who believed the gospel. So your point is not taken nor supported.
Whether my point is "taken" by you or not is beyond my control, but what I have said concerning Romans 8:29-30 is supported by that passage.
I agree with Bee's example that when there are 1000 people who hear the gospel message, all 1000 of them are invited. Romans 8:29-30 is saying something different though. Only those whom God foreknew and predestined are called.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 2:59:20 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGracequote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
By what CRITERIA does God elect and not elect without partiality and with out choosing arbitrarily?
Actually, it seems you've missed the "whole point" of Eph 1:4, which is that we (believers) are chosen IN HIM. That is the key. iow, only those who are IN CHRIST are chosen. How do we get to be IN HIM? Through faith in Him. That is the "selection criteria" for election Biblically. Good answer, only if you don't think that faith comes from God, if so, then there comes the question; By what CRITERIA does God choose to give faith to certain people and not others without partiality and with out choosing arbitrarily?
I don't think that faith comes from God. Conviction of sin, righteousness, and judgment do come from God, per John 16:8,9, which may lead to faith in Christ, but I am convinced that God created mankind with the innate ability to choose what they believe, just as God as revealed Himself clearly to mankind so that no one has an excuse for not recognizing and honoring God, per Rom 1. When people do recognize and honor God, as Cornelius demonstrated, as an unregenerate unbeliever, God provides additional illumination, as He did for Cornelius.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 3:00:32 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
Churches of unbelievers are not restricted to
FGM, but they surely contribute the majority
of those who "believe that they believe".
Could you cite a source for your accusation, please?
Thanks.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 3:06:18 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
We all know that God doesn't justifiy everyone. Paul was clear in Rom 3 about how anyone is justified, which is through faith in His blood. My point is that he included the entire human race in who would be justified through faith. The key remains to be faith. But Paul clearly indicated that all could be justified through faith. There is potential, something the reformed keep rejecting.
You have inadvertently agreed with the reformed playbook (did you get yours at CBD also?). Romans 3 and 8 do not show that all have the potential of justification.
You make this "claim" but you haven't done one thing to back it up.
Sure I did. I quoted you and Romans 8:29-30. What else are you looking for?
quote:
quote:
If anything, your argument concerning Rom 8:29-30 proves just the opposite.
Hardly. If you would just quit reading from your playbook, you might be able to understand what Paul did say. He included the human race in who would be justified through faith. What that means is that there is no one excluded from being justified as long as they have faith in His blood. The key is "through faith in His blood", the means of justification. And since Paul included the human race in the "all" of v.23, that passage contradicts the erroneous reformed doctrine of election quite clearly.
Romans 8:29-30 states (and you have agreed) that only those who are foreknown and predestined are called. God does not call others; Only those whom He foreknew.
In the context of Rom 8:29-30, that is certainly true, since the topic is about believers only. Agreed?
However, what about Matt 22:14 which says, "many are called, few are chosen". What do you do about that? It seems clear to me that the "many" here would be everyone who is exposed to the gospel is invited to believe, which is supported in the Bible. But, not everyone who is exposed to the gospel believe, so part of or many of the "many" would be unbelievers, yet they are called. So, in this passage, the "called" include unbelievers as well.
So, as always, context is king. In Rom 8, the "called" are specifically describing believers only. But in Matt 22:14, the called include those who won't believe the gospel. Hope this clarifies for you.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 3:10:21 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
Destiny
quote:
From what I can gather in looking at these verses the only other case in which the subject "tassoes??" themselves, it is clearly shown that they themselves are doing it. (By the simple use of the pronoun - themselves) To get that from Acts 13:48 you have to do a lot a "stretching" as I see it. Again, I am not trying to create an angry response or set myself up as an authority. I'm just saying that your explanation doesn't even seem like something you could ever arrive at by just reading the text. Even if you were reading it in the original Greek your first impulse would be to think that they were "appointed" by someone else. That does seem to be, after all, the way the word is most commonly used and in the case where it is not used that way it is clearly shown that they "tassoed" themselves.
quote:
Ac 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed
Freegrace- The text does not specifiy who did the ordaining.
That is a really good point Destiny. While I agree with Free here that the text does not specify who did the ordaining it does specify when the ordaining took place. It took place before faith.
I agree, td. The context is quite clear that the Gentiles were very interested in what Paul was teaching (eternal life) and begged him to return the next Sabbath and "nearly the whole town" assembled to hear him. So, the text clearly indicates the Gentiles were "devoted" to what Paul preached.
quote:
The bible tells us that without faith it is impossible to please God. It also tells us in Romans 10 that we don’t even call upon the Lord until we believe. We can’t even call upon the Lord without faith but somehow we are able to ordain ourselves to eternal life?
We don't ordain ourselves to it, but we can "set" ourselves up for it, as in coming back to hear Paul preach, because we are interested in what he was saying. That is what the passage is about.
quote:
In order for Free’s interpretation to be correct it means man in his fallen condition apart from faith ordains himself for faith and eternal life.
Please pay attention to all my posts. I explained it very clearly. What you say here is not what I've said at all.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 3:18:30 PM
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johnkw
Posts: 344
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: johnkw
"4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined
us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of
his will," If one's presupposition is that God desires
all men to be saved, the interpretation is not selective redemption.
One's presupposition is not necessarily that God desires all men to be saved. One is still working on this issue.
What's the point of "chose us" if it doesn't imply that others are *not* chosen.
quote:
quote:
God "mercies whom He wills and hardens whom He wills" (Romans 9:18).
And for what reason? To prove his sovereignty?
Well, the reason is given in the verse before: "For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, 'For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.'" (Romans 9:17).
quote:
Just because he can?
Not just because he can, but to show his power. I, for one, find it an encouragement that God, using an evil ruler, can set his people free in a miraculous way that echoes throughout time.
quote:
Because it glorifies him somehow?
Yes.
quote:
For his own purposes?
Yes. But beyond Scripture, one can speculate all one wants to about what these purposes might be, and it may be somewhat of a fruitful exercise, but don't expect to get hard and fast conclusions.
quote:
Tell me, what does the hardening of Pharaoh have to do
with selective redemption or who wins the salvation lottery?
(Just a philosophical aside--how is it less of a lottery when it depends on the libertarian free will of man?) Paul, like a good Jew, midrashed the Exodus story to back up his points, one of which was selective redemption. You don't read into the Pauline application of the OT story every aspect of the OT story. You take the Pauline Apostolic application of it. What good would it be if Paul were just regurgitating every point made by the OT? But instead, Paul uses it as a springboard to illustrate the NT revelation of selective redemption, explaining that this selectivity has been in the OT all the time--it's nothing new. "Not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel."
quote:
Did Pharaoh play any part in his own hardening?
I don't know. We're not told. Again, one can speculate, but you have to leave it at that and cling only to what Scripture reveals.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 3:27:49 PM
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johnkw
Posts: 344
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: johnkw
According to Ephesians 1:4-5, it seems like He doesn't, and that this is the whole point.
Actually, it seems you've missed the "whole point" of Eph 1:4, which is that we (believers) are chosen IN HIM. That is the key. iow, only those who are IN CHRIST are chosen. How do we get to be IN HIM? Through faith in Him. That is the "selection criteria" for election Biblically.
You're breaking grammar here. "Us" is the direct object of the sentence, so "He chose us" is the main point, with "in him" as a qualifier or describer. "In him" is where God put us when he chose us. "Before the foundation of the world" is when it happenend. "That we should be holy..." is the purpose or outcome (at least one of them). You cannot get "faith as the selection criteria" from this passage. And from John 6, we find that God's choosing us comes before our faith and is a direct cause of our faith.
quote:
quote:
"4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,"
The criteria is "the purpose of his will."
I've highlighted part of the text to help you see the criteria.
Again, "In him" is not part of the criteria. It's the destination of the choice.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 3:39:03 PM
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johnkw
Posts: 344
Joined: 11/27/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: johnkw
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
quote:
Where do you read that only those whom God has "appointed to hear"? That is not taught in the Bible.
48When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. – Acts 13:47-48
 Here we go again. The word for "appointed" is tasso, with a military root which is rendered "to assign, dispose to a certain position, set, addict (KJV) or devoted (NASB)" for 1 Cor 15:16. Note that God is not mentioned in Acts 13:48. Also note that Luke compared the unbelieving Jews, whom Paul charged them as judging themselves unworthy of eternal life, with the Gentiles who in the context had begged Paul to return to speak again (v.43,44). Tasso is passive voice, meaning the action is done to the subject, but there are many scholars who note that many times the ancients used passive voices in place of middle voices. Mark 1:6 is a perfect example. It speaks of John the baptizer "was dressed in camel hair" and is in the passive voice. Would you interpret that as his mommy came out in the desert each morning and dressed her little boy? Of course not. Do you think he had a butler like Prince Charles who dressed him? Of course not. So, it is clear from Mark 1:6 that Mark used a passive voice as a middle voice, which indicates the subject performs the action on himself.
So, the Gentiles performed the action of "appointment" on themselves. iow, they "lined up or set themselves" for eternal life.
The text does not support or prove your theory.
Actually, ean tetagmeno is a periphrastic construction--you can't just look at the form that tasso comes in--you have to consider also the form of being word that's attached. The only meaning that makes sense of the two words put together is that someone else did the appointing, not themselves. I.e., it can't be taken as a middle voice. Who did the appointing? God.
What source do you have for such "pronouncement"? Mark used a passive when clearly a middle voice was meant in Mark 1:6. Scholars have noted that it was fairly common for writers to use passive when middle was meant.
What is your support for God doing the appointing, since Luke didn't mention Him, though when he used tasso and meant God, he noted that?
James White, listening to his recent debate on Calvinism with Steve Gregg. It's also in his book "The Potter's Freedom", I believe. The point is that you can't take "tetagmenoi" (which is the perfect form of tasso) alone here, because there's another word attached to it--"esan" (sorry, I misspoke earlier), which is a form of "to be". "Esan tetagmenoi" must be taken together, and they mean something completely different from tetagmenoi taken alone. It is a pluperfect. It means that someone else in the past had actually done something to these Gentiles prior to this story in Acts 13.
Why do most committee translations, composed of people from all sorts of theological backgrounds (arminian and reformed, etc.), translate this as "as many as had been appointed to eternal life"?
Who else would do such appointing? And this passage was not meant to be a theological treatise on election. It was just a revealing comment in passing.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 4:02:38 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2043
Status: offline
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quote:
RWE: Did Pharaoh play any part in his own hardening?
Johnkw: I don't know. We're not told.
Fact is, Pharaoh hardened his own heart at least 6 times:
Exodus 8:15
But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief,
he hardened his heart and did not heed them,
as the LORD had said.
also 8:32; 9:7; 9:34; 8:19; 1Sam 6:7;
God did it at least 7 times in 4:21; 14:4; 14:7; 9:12; 10:1; 11:10; 14:8
Don't know at least one time in Ex 9:35
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 4:08:23 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2043
Status: offline
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quote:
Johnkw: One's presupposition is not necessarily
that God desires all men to be saved. One is still working on this issue. In spite of Scripture that says otherwise?
Does God choose or does desire all men to be saved?
A: Yes.
God hardened a man's heart and the man hardened his own.
Which is it, God or man? A: Yes.
Man repents and God grants repentance. Which is it?
A: Both.
Does man have free will or does God predestine?
A: Yes.
We must live in the tensions.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 5:29:33 PM
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johnkw
Posts: 344
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
quote:
ORIGINAL: johnkwquote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
By what CRITERIA does God elect and not elect without partiality and with out choosing arbitrarily?
According to Ephesians 1:4-5, it seems like He doesn't, and that this is the whole point. "4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,"
The criteria is "the purpose of his will."
God "mercies whom He wills and hardens whom He wills" (Romans 9:18). That is the very definition of arbitrary.
My question was to give an answer with outmaking God choose arbitrarily.
Didn't you read the definition?
That's why I posted it, and you still gave the answer as being an arbitrary election.
Unless you actually think God elects arbitrarily, please answer correctly.
Sorry about that. I somewhat misunderstood your purpose. I don't have such an answer, since it seems to me pretty arbitrary, from Scripture.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 5:38:03 PM
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johnkw
Posts: 344
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGracequote:
ORIGINAL: Diolectic
By what CRITERIA does God elect and not elect without partiality and with out choosing arbitrarily?
Actually, it seems you've missed the "whole point" of Eph 1:4, which is that we (believers) are chosen IN HIM. That is the key. iow, only those who are IN CHRIST are chosen. How do we get to be IN HIM? Through faith in Him. That is the "selection criteria" for election Biblically. Good answer, only if you don't think that faith comes from God, if so, then there comes the question; By what CRITERIA does God choose to give faith to certain people and not others without partiality and with out choosing arbitrarily?
I don't think that faith comes from God.
Romans 3:22: "2. Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe".
Galatians 2:16: "Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified ."
The grammar demands that it's the faith of Christ. This implanted faith is the starter for our faith which we continue to exercise throughout our lives.
Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"
"It" is neuter and therefore doesn't refer only to faith or to grace, but to the whole preceding phrase. Since faith is part of that phrase, it is part of the gift of God.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 5:48:21 PM
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johnkw
Posts: 344
Joined: 11/27/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: rwe2156
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Johnkw: One's presupposition is not necessarily
that God desires all men to be saved. One is still working on this issue. In spite of Scripture that says otherwise?
Which Scripture? 2 Peter 3:9. All doesn't always mean every single person. Scripture is replete with usage of "all" in a limited sense. It seems the "us" in this context is Christians.
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Does God choose or does desire all men to be saved?
A: Yes.
God hardened a man's heart and the man hardened his own.
Which is it, God or man? A: Yes.
Thanks for the reminder of pharaoh hardening his own heart. It had escaped me.
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Man repents and God grants repentance. Which is it?
A: Both.
Does man have free will or does God predestine?
A: Yes.
We must live in the tensions.
I believe in this somewhat, but you can use this to prove anything. I prefer to use logic as much as possible, comparing Scripture to Scripture, to get down to the irreducible mysteries (or "axioms", if you prefer). As Einstein said, "Make it as simple as possible... but no simpler!" If puzzle pieces fit together, put them together.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 5:54:50 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: SureHope
But this does not address Romans 8:29-30. In that passage it is only those who are foreknown and predestined who are called. All that are called, according to Rom 8:30, are justified.
The key is in your statement "in that passage". Bee's point that all who hear the gospel are invited or called to believe is valid and supported throughout Scripture. In the context of Rom 8, the "called" are only those who believed the gospel. So your point is not taken nor supported.
Whether my point is "taken" by you or not is beyond my control, but what I have said concerning Romans 8:29-30 is supported by that passage.
I agree with Bee's example that when there are 1000 people who hear the gospel message, all 1000 of them are invited. Romans 8:29-30 is saying something different though. Only those whom God foreknew and predestined are called.
Kletos = called = invited. OK, what is your point here? All who hear the gospel are invited (kletos) to believe, and some, many, or most who hear do not respond, but they are called anyway to believe. In Rom 8, which is speaking specifically about believers, are also "the called". They had to hear before they could believe.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 6:17:22 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: johnkw
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ORIGINAL: rwe2156
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ORIGINAL: johnkw
"4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world,
that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love 5 he predestined
us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of
his will," If one's presupposition is that God desires
all men to be saved, the interpretation is not selective redemption.
One's presupposition is not necessarily that God desires all men to be saved. One is still working on this issue.
There is no presupposition in that statement. It comes straight from Scripture. Do you disagree?
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What's the point of "chose us" if it doesn't imply that others are *not* chosen.
It does imply that others are not chosen. But the real question is this: to what are we chosen for? The answer is eternal life, salvation, justification, forgiveness. And all of these are directly linked to believing as a prerequisite. Even John 3:36 indicates that there is a choosing: some to eternal life, and some to eternal damnation. It's all based on who has and doesn't have faith.
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(Just a philosophical aside--how is it less of a lottery when it depends on the libertarian free will of man?)
Though a former threadee, Turretinfan, a 5 point calvinist, described calvinism as a philosophy in post #25, what does a "lottery" have to do with anything? Is that how you view election? If so, why?
God saves those who believe in His Son. That is the criteria. There is no concept of "lottery" in the Bible. Seems your philosophy of calvinism thinks so.
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Paul, like a good Jew, midrashed the Exodus story to back up his points, one of which was selective redemption.
Paul clearly debunked the idea of selective redemption in Rom 3 where he included the entire human race (for all have sinned...v.23) in who could or would be justified (are justified freely...ESV...v.24) by means of faith (through faith in His blood...v.25). iow, no one from the human race is excluded from justification if they believe. That does NOT (for those still not paying attention) teach universalism, as some of you keep wanting to charge. Paul was telling us that anyone from the human race IS justified through faith. What is the key? It is faith in His blood.
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Did Pharaoh play any part in his own hardening?
I don't know. We're not told. Again, one can speculate, but you have to leave it at that and cling only to what Scripture reveals.
It is sad that you are so unfamiliar with Pharoah's story. While there are verses that say that God hardened his heart, there are also many verses that specifically state that he hardened his own heart.
Ex 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and did not listen to them, as the Lord had said.
Ex 8:32 But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and he did not let the people go. Clearly he hardened his own heart more than once!
Ex 9:34 But when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunder had ceased, he sinned again, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. v.35 And Pharaoh's heart was hardened... Note how one hardens their heart...by sinning.
1 Sam 6:6 Why then do you harden your hearts as did the Egyptians AND Pharaoh hardened their hearts?
2 Chron 36:13 And he also rebelled against King Nebuchadnezzar who had made him swear allegiance by God. But he stiffened nis neck and hardened his heart against turning to the Lord God of Israel. What a clear picture of free will. They rejected turning to the Lord.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 5/15/2008 6:30:27 PM
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FreeGrace
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