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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 6:52:46 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7607
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
Freewill doctrine puts God in a box of saving only good people.
That is blatantly untrue. God saves those who believe the gospel. We know that when Abraham believed, God credited it to him as righteousness. How do you get "good people" from that?
Your statement reveals that you still do not understand free will doctrine one little bit.
Freegrace has stated over and over that God gives further light to those who do not suppress the truth.
Del has said that she is now in full agreement with this. Are you?
If you hold to this you can slice it anyway you want to only those who merit further revelation because of the goodness of their heart will be saved.
I wish you would pay attention. I've never even mentioned "goodness of their heart". That seems to be only the figment of your imagination, as well as the figments of all the other calvinists on this thread, because of the number of times you all keep bringing it up. Free will is about freely believing the evidence that God gives. That's all. Why is that so difficult to grasp?
quote:
It can be solved by answering three yes or no questions.
I'm game. Even though KJB is not.
quote:
Is suppressing the truth an evil thing?
Yes.
quote:
Is not suppressing the truth a good thing?
Yes.
quote:
Have you ever suppressed the truth?
Sure. Each time a believer sins, he is in actuality suppressing the truth that Christ is His Lord and Savior and has commanded him/her not to sin.
What is your point?
quote:
The opposite of holding the truth in unrighteousness is godliness.
Why do you think so? I disagree. Convince me why you think so.
quote:
If we become godly then God will reveal the gospel to us?
No. Please pay attention. When man believes the evidence that God gives to everyone, God gives more. Are you aware of Acts 17:27? It tells us why God created mankind; in order to seek Him.
quote:
Don't you see the problem with this brother?
Nope. You gots some 'splaining to do.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 7:01:01 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7607
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
Freewill doctrine puts God in a box of saving only good people.
Now I know you don't agree with what I just said but hear me out.
Freegrace has stated over and over that God gives further light to those who do not suppress the truth.
Del has said that she is now in full agreement with this. Are you?
If you hold to this you can slice it anyway you want to only those who merit further revelation because of the goodness of their heart will be saved.
Why is it that when free will is explained to the calvinists, when they hear that man believes freely, they immediately interpret those words into "man is good", and "man is saved because of the goodness of their heart"?
Why is it that the calvinist seems totally incapable of even vaguely understanding the simplicity of the concept that when God makes evident truth about Himself that man has a choice: to either believe the evidence, or to reject the truth.
Acts 10 is real clear that Cornelius believed the evicence that God existed, for he feared (reverence) God and prayed to Him continually. The result of believing the evidence was that God provided him with more evidence in the form of Peter with the gospel. Please notice that I did NOT say that Cornelius had a good heart, or that he merited salvation. I did say that he reverenced God and prayed, because THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT THE SCRIPTURE SAYS ABOUT HIM, even though none of the calvinists want to admit that or accept that.
Is there anyone who can explain to me why the calvinists just cannot grasp this?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 7:29:44 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1891
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
Here's a quick question for the non-reformists:
Does our faith come from ourselves or from God? Think carefully and search scripture before answering.
Excellent advice to search Scriptures first. Rom 10:10 is quite clear, I think.
"for with the heart man belives, resulting in righteousness".
iow, man believes, and God saves.
Once again, you give a works-based salvation answer.
Again: Where does faith come from? Or who is the author of faith?
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 7:48:46 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 396
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
quote:
The opposite of holding the truth in unrighteousness is godliness.
Why do you think so? I disagree. Convince me why you think so.
(Romans 1:18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
the opposite of holding the truth in unrighteousnes is godliness and righteousness.
quote:
quote:
Have you ever suppressed the truth?
Sure. Each time a believer sins, he is in actuality suppressing the truth that Christ is His Lord and Savior and has commanded him/her not to sin.
What is your point?
That is the point of Ro chapter 1-3.
All have sinned and fell short of the glory of God.
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 8:36:29 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1600
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
why don't you consider that what God has made evident to mankind would be from "the aid of the Holy Spirit"?
Because Paul did not say that it was “from the aid of the Holy Spirit.” What does he say?
because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. (Romans 1:19 NASB)
How did God make it evident to them? Paul starts out verse 20 with that term “for” again, which shows us that he is about to explain what he had just stated in verse 19.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. (Romans 1:20 NASB95)
The means God uses to make Himself evident within all men is through His creation. He did not add, “from the aid of the Holy Spirit.”
quote:
Why don't you consider that "God's gracious work" was what He made evident to Cornelius, as He does to all of mankind? Why not?
Because Paul clearly states in Romans 1 that all suppress the truth in unrighteousness; not a merely a group of sinners called "fools", but all sinners.
quote:
Please convince me that Cornelius was suppressing the truth of God's evidence. I'm currently convinced that he was NOT suppressing that truth. I think you are afraid to admit that Cornelius demonstrates the ability of man to respond to what God has made evident about Himself and that man is able to seek God, as the Bible claims.
Quite the opposite, I feel very strongly, based upon scriptural truth, that Cornelius or any other person have ever demonstrated what you claim. I base this upon Romans 1:16-21; 1 Cor 2:14; 2 Cor 4:4-6.
More to come,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 8:38:40 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7607
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
Here's a quick question for the non-reformists:
Does our faith come from ourselves or from God? Think carefully and search scripture before answering.
Excellent advice to search Scriptures first. Rom 10:10 is quite clear, I think.
"for with the heart man belives, resulting in righteousness".
iow, man believes, and God saves.
Once again, you give a works-based salvation answer.
Gee, I didn't know that Rom 10:10 teaches a works based salvation! I wonder if Paul knew what he was preaching? 
quote:
Again: Where does faith come from? Or who is the author of faith?
Oh, now you are asking a somewhat different question. I though you were meaning where does "belief" come from.
But, the Christian faith, now, that comes straight from God. Heb 12:2
The gospel comes from God. Rom 1:16
Salvation comes from God. Acts 28:28
Righteousness comes from God. Rom 1:17
The Holy Spirit comes from God. John 14:26
Forgiveness comes from God. Acts 10:43
Justification comes from God. Rom 3:24
Hopefully that will clear things up for you.
May I ask you a question? Could you review post 30769 and tell me what you disagree with? Thanks.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 8:41:30 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7607
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
quote:
The opposite of holding the truth in unrighteousness is godliness.
Why do you think so? I disagree. Convince me why you think so.
(Romans 1:18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
the opposite of holding the truth in unrighteousnes is godliness and righteousness.
quote:
quote:
Have you ever suppressed the truth?
Sure. Each time a believer sins, he is in actuality suppressing the truth that Christ is His Lord and Savior and has commanded him/her not to sin.
What is your point?
That is the point of Ro chapter 1-3.
All have sinned and fell short of the glory of God.
The point of the last half of Rom 1 is that rejection of the evidence that God has made evident to all is suppression of the truth. Like fools, who say in their hearts, there is no God. That is suppression of truth.
cornelius, otoh, believed that evidence that God has made evident to everyone. He both recognized that God existed, and he reverenced God and sought Him through prayers. With the result that God gave him more evidence.
Why do you seem to want to deny this?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 8:52:11 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7607
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
why don't you consider that what God has made evident to mankind would be from "the aid of the Holy Spirit"?
Because Paul did not say that it was “from the aid of the Holy Spirit.” What does he say?
because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. (Romans 1:19 NASB)
Again, why can't you consider that the way or method God used to make evident to man is through the Holy Spirit?
quote:
How did God make it evident to them? Paul starts out verse 20 with that term “for” again, which shows us that he is about to explain what he had just stated in verse 19.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. (Romans 1:20 NASB95)
The means God uses to make Himself evident within all men is through His creation. He did not add, “from the aid of the Holy Spirit.”
Again, why can't you see the very real possibility that the way men see God in creation is through the enablement of the Holy Spirit. I grant you Paul didn't specifically mention the Holy Spirit. But how many of you calvinists come to conclusions without "specific" words either? This goes both ways.
quote:
quote:
Why don't you consider that "God's gracious work" was what He made evident to Cornelius, as He does to all of mankind? Why not?
Because Paul clearly states in Romans 1 that all suppress the truth in unrighteousness; not a merely a group of sinners called "fools", but all sinners.
There is NO mention of "all men" in Rom 1:18-32. The text plainly say "men who suppress the truth". That would be a category of men. such as fools.
quote:
quote:
Please convince me that Cornelius was suppressing the truth of God's evidence. I'm currently convinced that he was NOT suppressing that truth. I think you are afraid to admit that Cornelius demonstrates the ability of man to respond to what God has made evident about Himself and that man is able to seek God, as the Bible claims.
Quite the opposite, I feel very strongly, based upon scriptural truth, that Cornelius or any other person have ever demonstrated what you claim. I base this upon Romans 1:16-21; 1 Cor 2:14; 2 Cor 4:4-6.
What is your "Scriptural truth"?
And what do you disagree with about what I've "claimed" about Cornelius?
I asked KJB 5 very simple yes or no questions in #30512. He seems to think giving me a link to the WCF was some kind of answer. It was: a cop out answer.
Can you answer these 5 simple questions of mine? And please show me what I claim about Cornelius isn't in the text.
Do you disagree that Cornelius was unregenerate and an unbeliever at the beginning fo Acts 10?>
Do you disagree that he reverenced God and prayed continually?
Do you disagree that God heard his prayers?
Do you disagre that, based on his prayers, God sent Peter with the gospel?
Do you disagree that when he believed the gospel that God saved him?
Again, these are very simple questions, requiring only a quick yes or no response.
Hint: the answer to each question can be found within the text.
quote:
More to come,
Hopefully, answers to my 5 simple questions. 
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 8:53:54 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1600
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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FG,
quote:
quote:
Whether Cornelius honored God or not is not the fundamental issue, which in my mind is Romans 1:16-24. Since all have suppressed the truth in unrighteousness and Cornelius is a part of the all, then Cornelius suppressed the truth in unrighteousness also. How did he come to fear God and pray? There are scriptures that answer that question, but Romans 1 and Acts 10 do not.
Yet, you do not give any for support? Romans 1 does not say that all men suppress the truth. That is reformed presupposition only.
No, this is not a view that is unique to reformed theology. Adam Clarke, a staunch Arminian, states the following in his commentary on Romans 1:18,
"The apostle has now finished his preface, and comes to the grand subject of the epistle; namely, to show the absolute need of the Gospel of Christ, because of the universal corruption of mankind; which was so great as to incense the justice of God, and call aloud for the punishment of the world. 1. He shows that all heathen nations were utterly corrupt, and deserved this threatened punishment. And this is the subject of the first chapter, from verse 18 to the end. 2. He shows that the Jews, notwithstanding the greatness of their privileges, were no better than the Gentiles; and therefore the wrath of God was revealed against them also."
By “heathen nations” Clarke means those who are not Jews (Gentiles).
Clarke agrees with me. What does Clarke say is “the grand subject of the epistle” which begins in verse 18? – “to show the absolute need of the Gospel of Christ, because of the universal corruption of mankind.” Justification by faith is needed “because of the universal corruption of mankind.” Note that Clarke makes no mention of a certain group of sinners called “fools” but instead lumps all the heathen world into verse 18; he calls it “the universal corruption of mankind.” Clarke is saying that the subject of Romans 1:18-32 is that all heathen are corrupt and deserve the wrath of God. He does not say that the subject of Romans 1:18 through the end of the chapter is concerning a group of sinners called “fools,” but concerns all heathen. Clarke continues,
"In what sense could it be said that the heathen held [suppressed] the truth in unrighteousness . . . ?"
Again, Clarke uses the term “heathen” in contrast to “Jews.” He did not say that a group of heathen called “fools” held [suppressed] the truth in unrighteousness, but he included all heathen – “the heathen held the truth in unrighteousness.”
John Wesley, the father of modern Arminianism, makes this comment on Romans 1:18,
"For - There is no other way of obtaining life and salvation. Having laid down his proposition, the apostle now enters upon the proof of it. His first argument is, The law condemns all men, as being under sin. None therefore is justified by the works of the law. This is treated of Rom 3:20. And hence he infers, Therefore justification is by faith. The wrath of God is revealed - Not only by frequent and signal interpositions of divine providence, but likewise in the sacred oracles, and by us, his messengers. From heaven - This speaks the majesty of Him whose wrath is revealed, his all - seeing eye, and the extent of his wrath: whatever is under heaven is under the effects of his wrath, believers in Christ excepted. Against all ungodliness and unrighteousness - These two are treated of, Rom 1:23, &c. Of men - He is speaking here of the gentiles, and chiefly the wisest of them. Who detain the truth - For it struggles against their wickedness. In unrighteousness - The word here includes ungodliness also."
I could not have said it any clearer. “Having laid down his proposition [the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith . . . the just shall live by faith], the apostle now enters upon the proof of it [the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all . . . who suppress the truth in unrighteousness].” When Wesley comments on the phrase “of men” – ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness – he rightly comments that Paul “is speaking here of the Gentiles,” not a group of Gentiles called “fools” but all Gentiles. Obviously my view is not based upon reformed presuppositions as you claim, but on the clear and obvious meaning of the text, which even Arminians are able to see.
More to come,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 9:07:56 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1589
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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tdd1975,
You are posting about good and bad.
Someone that suppressed the truth would be bad......and someone that did not suppress the truth would be good.
You have it right on target!
According to free-will theology, people would be saved because they did something good.
According to Scripture, people are saved by grace.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 9:10:20 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
why don't you consider that what God has made evident to mankind would be from "the aid of the Holy Spirit"?
Because Paul did not say that it was “from the aid of the Holy Spirit.” What does he say?
because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. (Romans 1:19 NASB)
How did God make it evident to them? Paul starts out verse 20 with that term “for” again, which shows us that he is about to explain what he had just stated in verse 19.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. (Romans 1:20 NASB95)
The means God uses to make Himself evident within all men is through His creation. He did not add, “from the aid of the Holy Spirit.”
quote:
Why don't you consider that "God's gracious work" was what He made evident to Cornelius, as He does to all of mankind? Why not?
Because Paul clearly states in Romans 1 that all suppress the truth in unrighteousness; not a merely a group of sinners called "fools", but all sinners.
quote:
Please convince me that Cornelius was suppressing the truth of God's evidence. I'm currently convinced that he was NOT suppressing that truth. I think you are afraid to admit that Cornelius demonstrates the ability of man to respond to what God has made evident about Himself and that man is able to seek God, as the Bible claims.
Quite the opposite, I feel very strongly, based upon scriptural truth, that Cornelius or any other person have ever demonstrated what you claim. I base this upon Romans 1:16-21; 1 Cor 2:14; 2 Cor 4:4-6.
More to come,
SH
Yes Paul does say that only the aid of the Holy Spirit can make one believe in 1 Corinthians 2:14, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
So again, Arminains fail to reconcile scripture together but instead, take each passage out of context to make it contradict other scripture. So put Romans 1:18-31 together with 1 Corinthians 2:14 and you get; "All men suppress the truth by their wickedness and only the power of the Holy Spirit can open their eyes. "No one is righteous, not even one." That means that no one can believe without the power of the Holy Spirit to give them; faith, understanding, knowledge, and everything that comes from God. None of these come from man's sinful nature, not even the ability to believe as Ephesians 2:8-9 also confirms.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 9:11:32 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2264
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Acts 10 is real clear that Cornelius believed the evicence that God existed, for he feared (reverence) God and prayed to Him continually.
What about Lydia?
She was a "worshipper of God".
Mustn't she have had a "certain knowledge of God" before she was saved?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 9:13:26 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1600
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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FG,
quote:
Again, why can't you consider that the way or method God used to make evident to man is through the Holy Spirit?
I have considered it, but evidently the apostle Paul did not.
quote:
quote:
quote:
why don't you consider that what God has made evident to mankind would be from "the aid of the Holy Spirit"?
Because Paul did not say that it was “from the aid of the Holy Spirit.” What does he say?
because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. (Romans 1:19 NASB)
How did God make it evident to them? Paul starts out verse 20 with that term “for” again, which shows us that he is about to explain what he had just stated in verse 19.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. (Romans 1:20 NASB95)
The means God uses to make Himself evident within all men is through His creation. He did not add, “from the aid of the Holy Spirit.” Again, why can't you see the very real possibility that the way men see God in creation is through the enablement of the Holy Spirit. I grant you Paul didn't specifically mention the Holy Spirit. But how many of you calvinists come to conclusions without "specific" words either? This goes both ways.
All I can tell you is what Paul wrote. He is very specific in how God has made Himself evident to all men. God's invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clealy seen. How? "Being undestood through what has been made." God's attributes have been made know to all men through what God has made.
quote:
There is NO mention of "all men" in Rom 1:18-32. The text plainly say "men who suppress the truth". That would be a category of men. such as fools.
Hold that thought . . . my response is coming.
quote:
Can you answer these 5 simple questions of mine? And please show me what I claim about Cornelius isn't in the text.
Do you disagree that Cornelius was unregenerate and an unbeliever at the beginning fo Acts 10?>
Do you disagree that he reverenced God and prayed continually?
Do you disagree that God heard his prayers?
Do you disagre that, based on his prayers, God sent Peter with the gospel?
Do you disagree that when he believed the gospel that God saved him?
Again, these are very simple questions, requiring only a quick yes or no response.
I've already answered your five simple questions, but they were not all yes or no answers.
My dad used to ask me as a kid, "have you stopped hitting your teacher? answer yes or no." Sometimes a simple yes or no answer is not appropriate if you want to genuinely communicate and sincerely want to understand another's point.
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 9:21:44 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2264
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
According to free-will theology, people would be saved
because they did something good.
100% totally inaccurate statement, KJB.
Will you EVER answer any of my questions?
Here they are:
1) Does God command sinners to repent?
2) Does God desire sinners to repent?
3) Does God rejoice when sinners repent?
4) Does God patiently give sinners time to repent?
5) Who do you blame when you sin?
6) Who do you grieve when you sin?
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 9:22:47 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1600
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Carico
quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
why don't you consider that what God has made evident to mankind would be from "the aid of the Holy Spirit"?
Because Paul did not say that it was “from the aid of the Holy Spirit.” What does he say?
because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. (Romans 1:19 NASB)
How did God make it evident to them? Paul starts out verse 20 with that term “for” again, which shows us that he is about to explain what he had just stated in verse 19.
For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. (Romans 1:20 NASB95)
The means God uses to make Himself evident within all men is through His creation. He did not add, “from the aid of the Holy Spirit.”
quote:
Why don't you consider that "God's gracious work" was what He made evident to Cornelius, as He does to all of mankind? Why not?
Because Paul clearly states in Romans 1 that all suppress the truth in unrighteousness; not a merely a group of sinners called "fools", but all sinners.
quote:
Please convince me that Cornelius was suppressing the truth of God's evidence. I'm currently convinced that he was NOT suppressing that truth. I think you are afraid to admit that Cornelius demonstrates the ability of man to respond to what God has made evident about Himself and that man is able to seek God, as the Bible claims.
Quite the opposite, I feel very strongly, based upon scriptural truth, that Cornelius or any other person have ever demonstrated what you claim. I base this upon Romans 1:16-21; 1 Cor 2:14; 2 Cor 4:4-6.
More to come,
SH
Yes Paul does say that only the aid of the Holy Spirit can make one believe in 1 Corinthians 2:14, "The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from God for they are foolishness to him and he cannot understand them because they are spiritually discerned."
So again, Arminains fail to reconcile scripture together but instead, take each passage out of context to make it contradict other scripture. So put Romans 1:18-31 together with 1 Corinthians 2:14 and you get; "All men suppress the truth by their wickedness and only the power of the Holy Spirit can open their eyes. "No one is righteous, not even one." That means that no one can believe without the power of the Holy Spirit to give them; faith, understanding, knowledge, and everything that comes from God. None of these come from man's sinful nature, not even the ability to believe as Ephesians 2:8-9 also confirms.
Carico,
I fully agree with you.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 9:26:33 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
According to free-will theology, people would be saved
because they did something good.
100% totally inaccurate statement, KJB.
Will you EVER answer any of my questions?
Here they are:
1) Does God command sinners to repent?
2) Does God desire sinners to repent?
3) Does God rejoice when sinners repent?
4) Does God patiently give sinners time to repent?
5) Who do you blame when you sin?
6) Who do you grieve when you sin?
2 Corinthians 4:4, "For the god of this age has blinded the eys of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ."
So who do you think opens the eyes of the blind and gives us the pwoer to repent?
1) Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit?
2) The devil?
3) Man's sinful nature?
I'll give you a hint; it's not the second or the 3rd. Arminians think that Christ died for nothing and the Holy Spirit isn't strong enough to change hearts and minds. They believe in the power of man's sinful nature to change himself which is not only a lie, but it's nothing more than secular humanism which pays lip service to Jesus Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 9:38:14 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1589
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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FreeGrace,
quote:
All those disposed to eternal life believed. Please get it right, KJB.
I have it right.
Here are some common translations to prove it;
and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers. (NLT)
and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. (NIV)
and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. (NASB)
All who were marked out for real life put their trust in God (The Message)
and as many as were destined (appointed and ordained) to eternal life believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Jesus as the Christ and their Savior). (Amplified)
and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. (ESV)
and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (KJV)
Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord. (CEV)
And the people who were chosen to have life forever believed the message. (NCV)
and did believe -- as many as were appointed to life age-during (YLT)
and believed, how many ever were ordained to everlasting life. (WNT)
The word disposed can also be used if it is used in the proper way;
1: to place, distribute, or arrange especially in an orderly way
2 a: to put in place : set in readiness : arrange <disposing troops for withdrawal>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disposed
all those that were arranged and put in place to have eternal life believed.
Your free-will system would have it totally backwards even if using the word "disposed".
No matter what.....it is not;
and all those that believed were arranged and put in place to have eternal life.
KJB
_____________________________
Thank God we don't get as much Government as we pay for! -Will Rogers
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 9:41:04 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2264
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
Those who respond to Him in delight and love do so without
being coerced, manipulated or controlled.
In what state are we when we are saved, SH, saved or unsaved?
If unsaved, then how can an unsaved creature have a new heart?
I think your theology has is quite backwards.
quote:
They are given hearts that value and love God.
Conversion come AFTER believing, not before!
quote:
I thank God He called me out of darkness and
placed me into the kingdom of His Son.
And I am thankful you responded!!
quote:
No one has come to God on his own accord - no one seeks after God, no not one.
Then how can the wicked in Isa 55:7 repent?
How about Jer 26:3?
Perhaps they will listen and each will turn from his evil way.
Then I will relent and not bring on them the disaster I was
planning because of the evil they have done.
Does this sound like man is enabled to repent first.
God says "perhaps"?
Please explain how can God say "perhaps" if he controls everything we do?
"Perhaps they will listen" SCREAMS free will!!!
quote:
Those who are born again are free not to love God.
So natural man is not free to love God.....
.....but born again man who has received the Spirit of God himself...
....is free NOT to love him?
What happened to bondage of the will, SH?
Why is it unbound after we are saved? WHY are we free to sin after we are saved?
Is it that God grants regenerate man free will do deny him?
For what purpose?
Why would God cause a child of his to deny him every time he sins?
Please tell me how God causing his precious elect to sin bring him glory.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 9:46:14 PM
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Carico
Posts: 531
Joined: 8/19/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
quote:
All those disposed to eternal life believed. Please get it right, KJB.
I have it right.
Here are some common translations to prove it;
and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers. (NLT)
and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. (NIV)
and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. (NASB)
All who were marked out for real life put their trust in God (The Message)
and as many as were destined (appointed and ordained) to eternal life believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Jesus as the Christ and their Savior). (Amplified)
and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. (ESV)
and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (KJV)
Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord. (CEV)
And the people who were chosen to have life forever believed the message. (NCV)
and did believe -- as many as were appointed to life age-during (YLT)
and believed, how many ever were ordained to everlasting life. (WNT)
The word disposed can also be used if it is used in the proper way;
1: to place, distribute, or arrange especially in an orderly way
2 a: to put in place : set in readiness : arrange <disposing troops for withdrawal>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disposed
all those that were arranged and put in place to have eternal life believed.
Your free-will system would have it totally backwards even if using the word "disposed".
No matter what.....it is not;
and all those that believed were arranged and put in place to have eternal life.
KJB
Do you think that Arminians ignore these verses? I do. Why don't they believe them then reconcile them together with other scripture? It's mind-boggling why they don't. 
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 9:56:49 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 396
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
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KJB
quote:
According to Scripture, people are saved by grace.
Amen brother,
I was listening to Jonathan Edward's sermon Men naturally are God's enemies tody.
He makes this statement that hits the nail on the head.
So it is with natural men towards God. They entertain very low and contemptible thoughts of God. Whatever honor and respect they may pretend, and make a show of towards God, if their practice be examined, it will show, that they certainly look upon him as a Being that is but little to be regarded. The language of their hearts is, “Who is the Lord, that I should obey his voice?” Exo. 5:2. “What is the Almighty, that we should serve him?
Everyone one of us that has sinned has said in our hearts "who is the Lord that I should obey his voice".
I am no better than Pharaoh. If God had chosen to harden my heart and never revealed Himself to me, He would have been just in doing so.
It has to be by grace and grace alone.
_____________________________
(Isaiah 33:17) Your eyes will behold the king in his beauty;
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 10:33:04 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2264
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
You have said that Calvinism boxes God in.
Yes and I'll tell you why.
It does not recognize all the facets of God's sovereignty, only his decretive will.
But I think Scripture tells us God has other sides to his will,
namely prescriptive (desires and commands) and
permissive (God allows evil to occur, but can control or restrain it).
God NEVER purposes and evil act - it is the one thing he is unable to do.
All this being said, a one-dimensional view of sovereignty will
cause certain doctrinal slants.
Example: The KJV and all the early Calvinist theologians define
foreknowledge as foreordain in their concordances, dictionaries
commentaries, and confessions of faith.
Calvinism simply cannot see foreknowledge this way because
in the process of making God in control of everything, the theology
has actually constrained God's sovereignty and limited his will.
If you read free will literature, you will most certainly find this is
the crux of the matter: whether God can foreknow an event
without being the direct cause of it.
Free will ascribes sin to God permissive will and God is neither
blamed nor accused of causing sin to occur.
Presciptive will also recognizes the fact that God can desire his
creation to come to him and his creation can refuse. God
commands sinners to repent, but not all will. Christ died
for the sins of the world, but not all will be saved.
Calvinism makes the accusation that if God desires or
commands something and it doesn't occur, then God is a failure.
The truth is MAN is the failure. God has a prescribed course
to follow, but man is given freedom of choice to go another way.
When the creature who God loves and desires to be saved
responds to his call or draw and repents, God is glorified and heaven rejoices.
quote:
While I admit that I don't fully understand the tension between
God's sov. and human responsibility.
God's ways are far above my ways for my feeble mind to comprehend.
Oh but you CAN understand it, friend.
In the same way you can understand the tension between
predestination and free will.
quote:
Freewill doctrine puts God in a box of saving only good people./quote]
Absolutely not!
Don't you see that if your presupposition is God decrees everything, then
man's inability is the next corollary? And if man is unable, then he can
only be saved by making him able, hence the totally erroneous doctrine
of regeneration Calvinism is forced to embrace.
[quot]Freegrace has stated over and over that God gives further
light to those who do not suppress the truth.
Del has said that she is now in full agreement with this. Are you?
I think I do believe that most people's revelation of God comes in stages.
One plants, one waters but God gives the increase. Each step of the
way God uses his children as witnesses to his power to save.
I do not really think the elect are just sitting there waiting to hear
the gospel for the first time and whiz, bam, boom - they repent,
believe and receive the Holy Spirit, all in nanosecond.
So, I don't know if I totally subscribe to it, but I do know that there are
examples of people who believed but who received the Holy Spirit at a later date.
The Apostles are a shining example, as well as those in Acts 19:2.
quote:
Is suppressing the truth an evil thing? Yes.
quote:
Is not suppressing the truth a good thing? Yes.
quote:
Have you ever suppressed the truth? Yes.
quote:
The opposite of holding the truth in unrighteousness is godliness.
What do you think "holding the truth in unrighteousness" actually means?
What do you think "that which is known about God is evident within them" means?
Did God make it evident to them?
Isn't the reason why God is ticked is because in spite of this internal knowledge?
Why do you think they are without excuse (v. 20)?
Because "although THEY KNEW GOD" they did not recognize him so God darkened their hearts.
If we become godly then God will reveal the gospel to us?
quote:
Don't you see the problem with this brother?
The answer is out there, TDD.
Lets keep looking and let the others keep throwing rocks.
Peace and grace.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2008 10:37:55 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1589
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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FreeGrace,
quote:
Apparently you are referring to Cornelius? If so, please demonstrate where and how he suppressed the truth that God provides mankind, according to Romans 1? Thank you.
Instead.....why dont you show me in Romans 1 where it says that Cornelius did not suppress the truth?
If you can show me that in Romans 1, you will convince me.
I have already demonstrated how he suppressed the truth.
Well then, should we conclude that we Jews are better than others?
No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin.
As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous—not even one.
No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God.
All have turned away; all have become useless.
No one does good, not a single one.”
That text does not need to be Font Size 5000 to see it.
Do you want the text to say.........."no one is seeking God except Cornelius". ???????
Why do you seem to always exclude this soldier?
If the soldier was converted to seek in any way shape or form, it was the power of God that did it.....not the power of a sinful soldier.
Why is it you constantly suppose being under the power of sin is free?
It really baffles me.
quote:
quote:
That means they know God hates sin and does not approve of sin, and yet they keep sinning.
Ah, your "point". The text doesn't say that at all, KJB. It does say "since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse." Rom 1:20. Nothing about "hating sin".
It does say it and it does mean it;
Here is the end of Romans 1;
32 They know God’s justice requires that those who do these things deserve to die, ye | | |
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