RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Theology] >> Christian Doctrine



Message

kelman -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 2:04:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rwe2156

quote:

ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
According to free-will theology, people would be saved
because they did something good.

100% totally inaccurate statement, KJB.

Will you EVER answer any of my questions?

Here they are:

1) Does God command sinners to repent?

2) Does God desire sinners to repent?

3) Does God rejoice when sinners repent?

4) Does God patiently give sinners time to repent?

5) Who do you blame when you sin?

6) Who do you grieve when you sin?
You could be asked a similar question. Not sure why anyone should bother answering your questions..because when they do you don't bother to reply to those answers OR any questions posed to you.



SureHope -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 5:25:13 AM)

rwe,
quote:

I've yet to have an election believer tell me why most people are not drawn to repentance and saved on their first hearing the gospel

If all who will be saved has been predetermined and the "effectual call of God" was so true, why wouldn't a man respond the first time he heard the gospel?

You would have to ask God . . . the timing is up to Him.

SH



TheosCentric -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 5:36:46 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FreeGrace

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheoCentric

quote:

ORIGINAL: FreeGrace

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheoCentric

Here's a quick question for the non-reformists:

Does our faith come from ourselves or from God? Think carefully and search scripture before answering.

Excellent advice to search Scriptures first. Rom 10:10 is quite clear, I think.
"for with the heart man belives, resulting in righteousness".
iow, man believes, and God saves.

Once again, you give a works-based salvation answer.

Gee, I didn't know that Rom 10:10 teaches a works based salvation! I wonder if Paul knew what he was preaching? [:D]


I was referencing your interpretation of the verse. In your view, man always does something apart from God to be saved.

quote:


quote:

Again: Where does faith come from? Or who is the author of faith?

Oh, now you are asking a somewhat different question. I though you were meaning where does "belief" come from.

But, the Christian faith, now, that comes straight from God. Heb 12:2
The gospel comes from God. Rom 1:16
Salvation comes from God. Acts 28:28
Righteousness comes from God. Rom 1:17
The Holy Spirit comes from God. John 14:26
Forgiveness comes from God. Acts 10:43
Justification comes from God. Rom 3:24

Hopefully that will clear things up for you.

May I ask you a question? Could you review post 30769 and tell me what you disagree with? Thanks.


I asked the same question, just worded another way. I never said anything about belief, but based on that, one cannot believe unless God draws them, correct?

One thing you must look at in Cornelius' salvation is the purpose of God in it. When Peter had his dream, what did God tell him? What was once unclean, I have made clean. Cornelius was a Gentile. The Gentiles were not of God's people, according to Jewish theology, especially to a good Jew like Peter.

Peter was given a chance to see that the Gospel was not just for the Jews. The Gospel was going to be spread to all nations. Paul indicates this all through the book of Romans.

God was teaching Peter a lesson here. To not be hardened toward the Gentiles. We know that Peter still didn't learn the whole lesson as later he sided with the Judaizers on the whole circumcision issue and Paul confronted him about it.

God chose Cornelius for salvation. There were lots of religious people during that day who "honored" God. The problem with your view is that you make it out that someone being good and maybe even honoring God, though they are not saved, leads God to save them. That's the exact opposite of what happens. I have pointed this out before from Romans 8:29-30. God Elects, Man responds, God saves. You don't seem to like the God elects part. It wipes away your theology, but it's there in black and white in the scripture.



SureHope -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 7:29:11 AM)

FG,
quote:

ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:

ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:

According to Romans 1, did Cornelius have any excuse if he had not recognized and honored God?

According to Romans 1 Cornelius had no excuse for suppressing the truth. He needed mercy as all others who reject the light found in creation. In other words, Cornelius fearing God and praying does not negate the fact that all, including Cornelius, have suppressed the truth in unrighteousness.

Show the wording what claims that all men suppress the truth.


1. Note the term “all” in verse 18. All is referring to ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. What are these men doing in their ungodliness and unrighteousness? Suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. All fallen men are ungodly and unrighteous. In their unrighteousness they suppress the truth. All fallen men, including Cornelius, have suppressed the truth in their unrighteousness.


2. There is a connection between verses 17 and 18 that is undeniable.

The righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith.

For

The wrath of God is revealed from heaven.

The term “for” connects the two parallel statements.

The righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith . . . the just shall live by faith – for – the wrath of God is revealed from heaven.

The purpose of the apostle Paul in verse 18 is to prove what he had just stated in verse 17 – that righteousness is by faith. In order to prove this Paul shows that all men are under the judgment of God and are completely lacking in any righteousness that can satisfy the demands of God. All men are under the wrath of God because they lack the righteousness of God; they suppress the truth in their unrighteousness. They are in need of God’s righteousness which is only obtained by faith. The two verses are connected by “for”. Men must be justified by faith, for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all . . . men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.

3. FG, you brought up that “scholars” put a paragraph break between verses 17 and 18, which to you proved that Paul was beginning a new topic. I will re-quote some of the versions that put a paragraph break between those two verses to show how the “scholars” view what Paul is saying starting at verse 18

The New International Version:

“God’s Wrath against Mankind”

The “scholars” of the NIV agree with me; God’s wrath is not against a portion of sinners who suppress the truth, but all mankind is under the wrath of God; all mankind has suppressed the truth in their unrighteousness.

The New King James Version:

“God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness”

These scholars do not agree with you; they are indicating that Paul is saying that the wrath of God is upon all unrighteousness, not merely on a portion of those who are unrighteous.

The English Standard Version:

“God’s Wrath on Unrighteousness”

These scholars agree with those of the NKJV, NIV, NASB and the following –

The New Century Version:

“All People Have Done Wrong”

These “scholars” as most others agree with me and disagree with you.

God’s Word:

“God’s Anger Against Sinful Humanity”

The New Living Translation:

“God’s Anger at Sin”

The Contemporary English Version:

“Everyone is Guilty”

These “scholars” rightly point out that the passage beginning at verse 18 is describing “everyone,” not just a portion of sinners called “fools.”

Marvin Vincent, who is definitely not a Calvinist, comments on the use of the word “for” in verse 18, “all men require this mode of justification, for all men are sinners, and therefore exposed to God’s wrath” (Vincent’s Word Studies of the New Testament Vol. 3, 15).

When Vincent states, “all men require this mode of justification” he is referring to verse 17, “ the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith . . . the just shall live by faith.” Vincent connects verse 17 with verse 18: “for all men are sinners, and therefore exposed to God’s wrath.” He uses the term “for” the same way the apostle Paul did.

Walter Bauer’s “A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature,” 2nd Edition revised by Gingrich & Danker, University of Chicago Press 1979, page 153. It states that the use of “gar” in Romans 1:18 is, “expressing continuation or connection.” Paul is obviously continuing his thought from verse 17 into verse 18.

The use of the Greek “gar” at the beginning of verse 18 is clearly that which “adduces the cause or gives a reason of a preceding statement or opinion.” The parallel statements in verses 17 & 18 show this beyond a doubt.

Your response to these scholars in post #29968 was,

quote:

If that is the position of "most scholars", then they are confused as well.

If the scholars are confused about what verse 18 says then they must be confused about a paragraph break also. I guess everyone is confused except you.

4. Suppression of the truth in unrighteousness
Unrighteousness in and of itself is a suppression of the truth. Was Cornelius unrighteous? By all means yes; otherwise he would not need the Savior. Therefore he, in his unrighteousness, suppressed the truth.

SH



SureHope -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 7:39:25 AM)

FG
quote:

Are you aware of Acts 17:27? It tells us why God created mankind; in order to seek Him.

Are you aware that God created us to love Him with every fiber of our being? No one has done that. In the same way there is no one in and of themselves who seeks God, no not one.

SH



rwe2156 -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 8:03:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Why is it that the calvinist seems totally incapable of even vaguely
understanding the simplicity of the concept that when God makes
evident truth about Himself that man has a choice: to either believe
the evidence, or to reject the truth.

Because their view of predestination and God's eternal decree
completely discounts man as capable of deciding anything good.

Considering the fact that everything depraved man does is sin, and
depraved man is unable to good, wonder how they explain moral pagans,
many of whom lead more holy lives than many of those who claim him.

Have they ever considered it could be because they contain the "code" within
because they are created in God's image?

quote:

Acts 10 is real clear that Cornelius believed the evicence that
God existed, for he feared (reverence) God and prayed to Him continually.

I haven't commented about Cornelius, but here's what I see:

1) Cornelius was a "god-fearing" man and "righteous man respected by the Jews",
a claim based on Jewish religious culture, I suspect he might have been "pharisaical"
in his overall understanding of God. Him being a centurion and all (he was feared
and had power over people), he most likely was connected to the pharisee elite.
In addition, he could have been quite useful to the pharisees as a person of legal
authority, no?

My overall take is Cornelius was a "gentile acting like a Jew", if you will.

But......could Cornelius have been truly god-fearing and righteous, which to me would
indicate his heart was already repentant? I don't know - but he certainly had at least
some idea from the Jews what it meant to fear God. Of course he could have done
all this as a show for the Jews, but why? He had the power, he had no need to seek
the approval of the Jews. He had a vision - would a faker have a vision from God?
I think not. I believe Cornelius' heart was already turning toward God.

I think Cornelius truly did have some kind of knowledge about God and God
responded by giving him the vision to seek out Peter and Cornelius, an
uncirumcised gentile Roman centurion was ultimately saved, illustrating
God's purpose in salvation is open to any man, not just a chosen few.

Maybe Cornelius heard about the events in Joppa, right up the road, and
wanted to hear more about this man Peter, but only out of curiosity -
he wanted to talk to the man who raised the woman Tabitha. Regardless of
why Cornelius called to see Peter is irrelevant - it was God's purpose to show
Peter he must bring the message to the gentiles, too.

In Acts 11 we also see Peter faced criticism by his Jewish convert disciples.
It also tells us Peter had the vision about the food laws.

Here is Peter's conviction in Acts 11:17 -
"So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed
in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?"

So did Cornelius respond to the gospel because of a prior acknowledgment
based on some evidence he saw, that he was gradually brought to faith
by incremental revelation of God?

Sorry, I don't see it here. It seems to me he had heard of Peter and wanted
to hear from him, but God's purpose was for Peter to bring the message of
salvation to him and his household.

I see more of a refutation of election here than anything else.

The gospel is for all men everywhere, but only some will believe.

I would appreciate your comments. I have consulted no references or commentaries.



rwe2156 -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 8:05:58 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico

quote:

ORIGINAL: rwe2156

quote:

ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
According to free-will theology, people would be saved
because they did something good.

100% totally inaccurate statement, KJB.

Will you EVER answer any of my questions?

Here they are:

1) Does God command sinners to repent?

2) Does God desire sinners to repent?

3) Does God rejoice when sinners repent?

4) Does God patiently give sinners time to repent?

5) Who do you blame when you sin?

6) Who do you grieve when you sin?


2 Corinthians 4:4, "For the god of this age has blinded the eys of unbelievers so they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ."

So who do you think opens the eyes of the blind and gives us the pwoer to repent?

1) Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit?
2) The devil?
3) Man's sinful nature?

I'll give you a hint; it's not the second or the 3rd. Arminians think that Christ died for nothing and the Holy Spirit isn't strong enough to change hearts and minds. They believe in the power of man's sinful nature to change himself which is not only a lie, but it's nothing more than secular humanism which pays lip service to Jesus Christ.
You answer my question and I'll answer yours.

[:)]



Mannamuncher -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 8:13:40 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

quote:

ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
But, the Christian faith, now, that comes straight from God. Heb 12:2
The Christian faith may come from God BUT your faith to believe comes straight from you at least that's what the freewillers always claim.

Let me add a morsel to your meaty post...

1 Peter 1:20-21 (New International Version)
20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.


1 Peter 1:21 (King James Version)
21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.



It's painfully obvious that faith to believe,

comes by God, and through God in Christ.

Anything else is simply unbiblical.



rwe2156 -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 8:17:12 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico

quote:

ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond

FreeGrace,

quote:

All those disposed to eternal life believed. Please get it right, KJB.


I have it right.

Here are some common translations to prove it;

and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers. (NLT)

and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. (NIV)

and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. (NASB)

All who were marked out for real life put their trust in God (The Message)

and as many as were destined (appointed and ordained) to eternal life believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Jesus as the Christ and their Savior). (Amplified)

and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. (ESV)

and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (KJV)

Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord. (CEV)

And the people who were chosen to have life forever believed the message. (NCV)

and did believe -- as many as were appointed to life age-during (YLT)

and believed, how many ever were ordained to everlasting life. (WNT)

The word disposed can also be used if it is used in the proper way;

1: to place, distribute, or arrange especially in an orderly way

2 a: to put in place : set in readiness : arrange <disposing troops for withdrawal>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disposed

all those that were arranged and put in place to have eternal life believed.

Your free-will system would have it totally backwards even if using the word "disposed".

No matter what.....it is not;

and all those that believed were arranged and put in place to have eternal life.

KJB


Do you think that Arminians ignore these verses? I do. Why don't they believe them then reconcile them together with other scripture? It's mind-boggling why they don't. [8|]
I am not a total Arminian.

I do not ignore this verse.

I admit it has caused my trouble.

But prooftexting is wrong. This verse must be interpreted, not
literally read and it must be interpreted after seeing ALL the
Bible has to say about predestination and man's responsibility.

After considering the whole intent of Scripture, my presupposition is that
all who WILL believe will be saved, not all who CAN believe will be saved.

Yes, our calling and predestination is based on God's initiative, but MEN MUST RESPOND.

Since I do not believe God foreordains some to be saved and some for hell,
but rather God foreknows all who will repent and be saved, I interpret this verse accordingly.

All who will believe are known by God from ages past and they
have been predestined to eternal life because of it.

Kind of like I have an appointment with the dentist today and all
I have to do is respond to the reminder call from the receptionist.

I already had an appointment, but the appointment is not fulfilled
until I actually heed that call and show up.

But the dentist knows I will come.



rwe2156 -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 8:21:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

quote:

ORIGINAL: rwe2156

quote:

ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
According to free-will theology, people would be saved
because they did something good.

100% totally inaccurate statement, KJB.

Will you EVER answer any of my questions?

Here they are:

1) Does God command sinners to repent?

2) Does God desire sinners to repent?

3) Does God rejoice when sinners repent?

4) Does God patiently give sinners time to repent?

5) Who do you blame when you sin?

6) Who do you grieve when you sin?
You could be asked a similar question. Not sure why anyone should bother answering your questions..because when they do you don't bother to reply to those answers OR any questions posed to you.
Kelman - I PROMISE you, I will respond if you answer them.

As for not responding, I think I responded to Surehope's answers.

I apologize if I don't answer all questions posed to me, but I really
don't remember seeing many - would you like to ask me a question?

I am seeking the truth. I have no preloaded responses ready to blast someone.

I simply want to know the answer to this question:

Does man have the ability and free will to repent or not?



rwe2156 -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 8:29:20 AM)

quote:

THEO:

God Elects, Man responds, God saves.

Yeah, like Pavlov's dogs responded.

No, I think its MAN MUST RESPOND.



KingJamesBond -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 8:50:23 AM)

rwe2156,

quote:

Considering the fact that everything depraved man does is sin, and
depraved man is unable to good, wonder how they explain moral pagans,
many of whom lead more holy lives than many of those who claim him.


Moral pagans? That wont even gain a cup of cold, weak, instant, week-old coffee outside heavens entrance.

We are not comparing men to men as if moral pagans are the standard we are supposed to go by. [8|]

God is the standard.

Romans;

For everyone has sinned; we all fall short of God’s glorious standard.

Matthew;

So be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Isnt that strange that we are commanded to be perfect when everybody falls short of the standard.

KJB



KingJamesBond -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 8:55:57 AM)

rwe2156,

quote:

Kelman - I PROMISE you, I will respond if you answer them.


I am pretty sure I have already responded to those questions on this forum.

rwe2156, I am also pretty sure you have already responded to the answers that I have given.

Its like a never ending circle though.

You dont like my answers. And while you certainly respond......it has never proved free-will!

You have never proved that salvation (repentance, new birth, belief, good works resulting from salvation, etc) are causes of only the man.



Maybe it is better to go onto new questions and new points?

[:)]

KJB



Carico -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 9:20:31 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rwe2156

quote:

ORIGINAL: Carico

quote:

ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond

FreeGrace,

quote:

All those disposed to eternal life believed. Please get it right, KJB.


I have it right.

Here are some common translations to prove it;

and all who were chosen for eternal life became believers. (NLT)

and all who were appointed for eternal life believed. (NIV)

and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed. (NASB)

All who were marked out for real life put their trust in God (The Message)

and as many as were destined (appointed and ordained) to eternal life believed (adhered to, trusted in, and relied on Jesus as the Christ and their Savior). (Amplified)

and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. (ESV)

and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (KJV)

Everyone who had been chosen for eternal life then put their faith in the Lord. (CEV)

And the people who were chosen to have life forever believed the message. (NCV)

and did believe -- as many as were appointed to life age-during (YLT)

and believed, how many ever were ordained to everlasting life. (WNT)

The word disposed can also be used if it is used in the proper way;

1: to place, distribute, or arrange especially in an orderly way

2 a: to put in place : set in readiness : arrange <disposing troops for withdrawal>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disposed

all those that were arranged and put in place to have eternal life believed.

Your free-will system would have it totally backwards even if using the word "disposed".

No matter what.....it is not;

and all those that believed were arranged and put in place to have eternal life.

KJB


Do you think that Arminians ignore these verses? I do. Why don't they believe them then reconcile them together with other scripture? It's mind-boggling why they don't. [8|]
I am not a total Arminian.

I do not ignore this verse.

I admit it has caused my trouble.

But prooftexting is wrong. This verse must be interpreted, not
literally read and it must be interpreted after seeing ALL the
Bible has to say about predestination and man's responsibility.

After considering the whole intent of Scripture, my presupposition is that
all who WILL believe will be saved, not all who CAN believe will be saved.

Yes, our calling and predestination is based on God's initiative, but MEN MUST RESPOND.

Since I do not believe God foreordains some to be saved and some for hell,
but rather God foreknows all who will repent and be saved, I interpret this verse accordingly.

All who will believe are known by God from ages past and they
have been predestined to eternal life because of it.

Kind of like I have an appointment with the dentist today and all
I have to do is respond to the reminder call from the receptionist.

I already had an appointment, but the appointment is not fulfilled
until I actually heed that call and show up.

But the dentist knows I will come.



Why do you not believe what the bible says? [sm=eek.gif] The bible makes it crystal clear that God isn't just capable of foreknowledge. He's omnipotent as well as omniscient! [8|] The bible is where we get the truth that God chooses and predestines. So again, why do you make up beliefs that contradict the bible? Why do you persist in believing that God is less powerful than the bible says he is?



FreeGrace -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 3:11:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
tdd1975,
You are posting about good and bad.
Someone that suppressed the truth would be bad......and someone that did not suppress the truth would be good.
You have it right on target!
According to free-will theology, people would be saved because they did something good.
According to Scripture, people are saved by grace.

I'm continually amazed that the reformed seem totally unable to grasp the position of free will. The correct position of free will is that people would be saved because they believed in Christ.

And, according to Scripture, people are saved by grace, through faith, something that the reformed keep forgetting to mention when they note that people are saved by grace. Why is that?



FreeGrace -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 3:14:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:

ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Acts 10 is real clear that Cornelius believed the evicence that God existed, for he feared (reverence) God and prayed to Him continually.

What about Lydia?
She was a "worshipper of God".
Mustn't she have had a "certain knowledge of God" before she was saved?

Of course she did. How else could the Bible describe her as a worshiper of God? Unless one actually recognizes that God exists, one cannot worship God.

The point from Romans 1 is that God has made evident to mankind His existence.



FreeGrace -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 3:19:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SureHope

FG,
Again, why can't you consider that the way or method God used to make evident to man is through the Holy Spirit?

I have considered it, but evidently the apostle Paul did not.

quote:

quote:

There is NO mention of "all men" in Rom 1:18-32. The text plainly say "men who suppress the truth". That would be a category of men. such as fools.

Hold that thought . . . my response is coming.

You are on hold.

quote:

quote:

Can you answer these 5 simple questions of mine? And please show me what I claim about Cornelius isn't in the text.
Do you disagree that Cornelius was unregenerate and an unbeliever at the beginning fo Acts 10?>
Do you disagree that he reverenced God and prayed continually?
Do you disagree that God heard his prayers?
Do you disagre that, based on his prayers, God sent Peter with the gospel?
Do you disagree that when he believed the gospel that God saved him?
Again, these are very simple questions, requiring only a quick yes or no response.

I've already answered your five simple questions, but they were not all yes or no answers.
My dad used to ask me as a kid, "have you stopped hitting your teacher? answer yes or no." Sometimes a simple yes or no answer is not appropriate if you want to genuinely communicate and sincerely want to understand another's point.

The very clear difference here is that your dad gave you a "trick" question. My questions are not that kind. They are simple and straightforward. And the answers can be found easily from the text.

I think it's quite telling that the reformed will not give an answer to my 5 simple questions. I think it is because you actually know what the answers are from the text, yet you cannot admit it.

{Edited to fix "quote" box error.} [sm=blush.gif]



FreeGrace -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 3:23:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rwe2156

quote:

ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
According to free-will theology, people would be saved
because they did something good.

100% totally inaccurate statement, KJB.
Will you EVER answer any of my questions?

rw, please don't hold your breath. He will not answer my 5 simple questions.

quote:

Here they are:
1) Does God command sinners to repent?
2) Does God desire sinners to repent?
3) Does God rejoice when sinners repent?
4) Does God patiently give sinners time to repent?
5) Who do you blame when you sin?
6) Who do you grieve when you sin?

Good grief! You've asked him 6 questions! If he won't answer 5 simple questions, how can he answer 6 of them? [:D]



FreeGrace -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 3:34:08 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond

FreeGrace,

quote:

All those disposed to eternal life believed. Please get it right, KJB.


I have it right.

You do not have it right. Tasso is NOT a word with its basic meaning as to appoint or ordain. The basic meaning of tasso is to set or arrange. the word isn't translated as appoint or ordain in any other of the 8 uses in Scripture.

The Greeks had words that DO mean to appoint or ordain, which Luke didn't use in Acts 13:48. The very context of Acts 13:42-48 demonstrates that the Gentiles were very interested in what Paul was saying and they wanted him back.

Further, Luke notes Paul's contrast between the unbelieving Jews as having "judged themselves unworthy of eternal life with the Gentiles who were "lining up for eternal life".

quote:

e are some common translations to prove it;

None of your translations prove anything. The root meaning of tasso isn't even about appointing or ordaining. Also, my Greek lexicon gives "were disposed" as the use of tasso in Acts 13:48.

quote:

The word disposed can also be used if it is used in the proper way;
1: to place, distribute, or arrange especially in an orderly way
2 a: to put in place : set in readiness : arrange <disposing troops for withdrawal>
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/disposed
all those that were arranged and put in place to have eternal life believed.

There! You finally got it! What is missing from Acts 13:48 is "God". Luke never mentioned Him. These people were very interested in what Paul was preaching. Just what do you think he was preaching about? The gospel, which is eternal life. The Gentiles arranged themselves in place to have eternal life.

You cannot deny the contrast between the unbelieving Jews with the believing Gentiles. So, in context, "dispose" is the obvious meaning.



FreeGrace -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 3:36:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tdd1975

KJB
quote:

According to Scripture, people are saved by grace.


Amen brother,
I was listening to Jonathan Edward's sermon Men naturally are God's enemies tody.

He makes this statement that hits the nail on the head.

So it is with natural men towards God. They entertain very low and contemptible thoughts of God. Whatever honor and respect they may pretend, and make a show of towards God, if their practice be examined, it will show, that they certainly look upon him as a Being that is but little to be regarded. The language of their hearts is, “Who is the Lord, that I should obey his voice?” Exo. 5:2. “What is the Almighty, that we should serve him?

Everyone one of us that has sinned has said in our hearts "who is the Lord that I should obey his voice".
I am no better than Pharaoh. If God had chosen to harden my heart and never revealed Himself to me, He would have been just in doing so.

It has to be by grace and grace alone.

You may ignore ALL of what Paul stated in Eph 2:8 if you want to, but the Bible has made it very clear that we are saved through faith, which is by grace.

Again, I'm always amazed that the calvinists keep ignoring or forgetting Eph 2:8, but only quote Eph 2:5.



FreeGrace -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 3:46:58 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond

FreeGrace,

quote:

Apparently you are referring to Cornelius? If so, please demonstrate where and how he suppressed the truth that God provides mankind, according to Romans 1? Thank you.

Instead.....why dont you show me in Romans 1 where it says that Cornelius did not suppress the truth?
If you can show me that in Romans 1, you will convince me.

What makes you think that Cornelius is even mentioned in Romans 1. You won't even answer my 5 simple and straight forward questions about him from Acts 10, so it is obviouss that nothing I show you will convince you.

quote:

I have already demonstrated how he suppressed the truth.
Well then, should we conclude that we Jews are better than others?
No, not at all, for we have already shown that all people, whether Jews or Gentiles, are under the power of sin.
As the Scriptures say, “No one is righteous—not even one.
No one is truly wise; no one is seeking God.
All have turned away; all have become useless.
No one does good, not a single one.”
That text does not need to be Font Size 5000 to see it.

Being under sin and sinning does NOT equal suppression of truth.

What is so difficult about understanding that when God makes Himself evident to mankind, that man is faced with 2 options. Either accept as true (believe) that evidence, or reject that evidence (suppression of that truth).

We have Cornelius who accepted that evidence, proven by the FACT that he reverenced God and prayed continually. He did NOT suppress that truth.

We also know that fools say in their hearts, there is no God. They DID suppress that truth.

quote:

Do you want the text to say.........."no one is seeking God except Cornelius".

I want you to answer my 5 simple questions. [:)]

quote:

Why do you seem to always exclude this soldier?

That's a funny statement. I'm the one who keep mentioning him to you calvinists. Seems you are the ones who aren't comfortable with him. Also, you haven't even been able to acknowledge his name, as this post demonstrates.

quote:

If the soldier was converted to seek in any way shape or form, it was the power of God that did it.....not the power of a sinful soldier.

What does "converted to seek" mean to you, KJB?

quote:

Why is it you constantly suppose being under the power of sin is free?

The better question is, why is it you contstantly suppose that unbelievers cannot freely believe or reject the truth that God reveals to mankind?

quote:

So have you been trying to do here? Tell us of how different Cornelius is?
The text is meant for Gentiles and Jews.

Correct. I've also noted that Cornelius represents the "other side of Romans 1". Do you know what that means?

quote:

omans 3 concludes that all people (the entire world consisting of Jew and Gentile) fall into the same shameful condition.

Yes, and that is the condition of being under sin and having sinned. That doesn't preclude anyone from believing the truth that God reveals to them.

In fact, no one has any excuse for NOT believing that truth. Why do you fight this principle?



FreeGrace -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 3:50:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kelman

quote:

ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Bottom line: when God makes truth evident, a choice is faced. To either believe it, or to reject/suppress it. That is free will.
Actually, it is your "bottom line" but not that of God. We know this to be true because God says man doesn't recognize the truth unless God reveals it to him.

That is very true. And that is also what Romans 1 proclaims! God has MADE EVIDENT EVERYTHING THAT IS KNOWN ABOUT GOD to mankind.

Did you know that "to reveal" something is the SAME as "making evident"?



FreeGrace -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 4:08:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheoCentric

quote:

ORIGINAL: FreeGrace

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheoCentric

quote:

ORIGINAL: FreeGrace

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheoCentric

Here's a quick question for the non-reformists:

Does our faith come from ourselves or from God? Think carefully and search scripture before answering.

Excellent advice to search Scriptures first. Rom 10:10 is quite clear, I think.
"for with the heart man belives, resulting in righteousness".
iow, man believes, and God saves.

Once again, you give a works-based salvation answer.

Gee, I didn't know that Rom 10:10 teaches a works based salvation! I wonder if Paul knew what he was preaching? [:D]

I was referencing your interpretation of the verse. In your view, man always does something apart from God to be saved.

Why do you think that believing is "apart from God"? Man cannot believe until God reveals the truth to him, right? So, how is that "apart from God".

We know from Romans 1 that God made the first move toward mankind by making evident His existence. How is that "apart from God"? It isn't. It is DIRECTLY FROM GOD, just as the text says.

If God hadn't made Himself evident, man would have an excuse for not recognizing, honoring and thanking Him. But because He has done so, man has no excuse.

quote:

quote]
quote:

Again: Where does faith come from? Or who is the author of faith?

Oh, now you are asking a somewhat different question. I though you were meaning where does "belief" come from.
But, the Christian faith, now, that comes straight from God. Heb 12:2
The gospel comes from God. Rom 1:16
Salvation comes from God. Acts 28:28
Righteousness comes from God. Rom 1:17
The Holy Spirit comes from God. John 14:26
Forgiveness comes from God. Acts 10:43
Justification comes from God. Rom 3:24
Hopefully that will clear things up for you.
May I ask you a question? Could you review post 30769 and tell me what you disagree with? Thanks.

I asked the same question, just worded another way. I never said anything about belief, but based on that, one cannot believe unless God draws them, correct?
Yes, I agree. And from Romans 1, I consider that what God has made evident about Himself IS the drawing from God. Man has no excuse for not recognizing and being thanking to Him. Cornelius demonstrates an unbeliever who DID recognize, honor and thank God. Fools, otoh, demonstrate those who suppress the truth that God has made evident to them.

quote:

One thing you must look at in Cornelius' salvation is the purpose of God in it. When Peter had his dream, what did God tell him? What was once unclean, I have made clean. Cornelius was a Gentile. The Gentiles were not of God's people, according to Jewish theology, especially to a good Jew like Peter.
Peter was given a chance to see that the Gospel was not just for the Jews. The Gospel was going to be spread to all nations. Paul indicates this all through the book of Romans.

That's true, but that's not the point. Cornelius as an unbeliever recognized, honored, and thanked God through prayers. He had no excuse not to, as Romans 1 claims. Fools, otoh, are without excuse when they say, there is no God, since God HAS MADE EVIDENT HIMSELF TO THEM.

quote:

God was teaching Peter a lesson here. To not be hardened toward the Gentiles. We know that Peter still didn't learn the whole lesson as later he sided with the Judaizers on the whole circumcision issue and Paul confronted him about it.

What is the point of any of this? Please focus on what Cornelius demonstrates.

quote:

God chose Cornelius for salvation.

How so? Through faith in the truth. 2 Thess 2:13. The same way He chooses all of us for salvation.

quote:

There were lots of religious people during that day who "honored" God. The problem with your view is that you make it out that someone being good and maybe even honoring God, though they are not saved, leads God to save them.

Wow, do you misunderstand my words! I've never said that. Her is what I've been saying:
Per Rom 1, God has made His existence known to everyone.
His existence is Truth.
Man is faced with a choice at that point: to either believe that Truth or to reject that Truth, through suppression of it, as the fools do who say there is no God.
Cornelius clearly recognized that God existed and he honored Him through continual prayers.
From Acts 11:14, it seems pretty clear that Cornelius prayed for more revelation or a better relationship, because God answered his prayers by sending Peter with the gospel, and the angel even noted that Peter would have "words by which you will be saved".

In a nutshell, Cornelius believed Truth at least 3 times:
1- when God made Himself evident to him at some point in his life, per Romans 1
2- when the angel appeared to him and told him to send for Peter. He could have excused the vision as just a bad pizza or indigestion, or even a hallucination.
3- when Peter presented the gospel to him and his household.

Can any of you calvinists deny any of these times when Cornelius was faced with either believing or rejecting (suppressing) the Truth that God was revealing to him?

quote:

That's the exact opposite of what happens. I have pointed this out before from Romans 8:29-30. God Elects, Man responds, God saves. You don't seem to like the God elects part. It wipes away your theology, but it's there in black and white in the scripture.

Please respond to the 3 times in Cornelius' life where he faced divine revelation known as Truth and believed it as an unregenerate man.

My position is that God "chooses" or elects those for salvation who believe, which is essentially what 2 Thess 2:13 says.



FreeGrace -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 4:18:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SureHope

FG,
quote:

ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
quote:

ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:

According to Romans 1, did Cornelius have any excuse if he had not recognized and honored God?

According to Romans 1 Cornelius had no excuse for suppressing the truth. He needed mercy as all others who reject the light found in creation. In other words, Cornelius fearing God and praying does not negate the fact that all, including Cornelius, have suppressed the truth in unrighteousness.

Show the wording what claims that all men suppress the truth.


1. Note the term “all” in verse 18. All is referring to ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. What are these men doing in their ungodliness and unrighteousness? Suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. All fallen men are ungodly and unrighteous. In their unrighteousness they suppress the truth. All fallen men, including Cornelius, have suppressed the truth in their unrighteousness.

What you fail to consider is what "suppressing the Truth" means. Read a little farther along and you will see it refers to what God has revealed to everyone, His existence. Heb 11:6 tells us that no one will seek God unless they believe that He exists, which is exactly what Cornelius did.

Your thinking that suppression of truth is merely sin is way off the target.

quote:

Your response to these scholars in post #29968 was,
quote:

If that is the position of "most scholars", then they are confused as well.

If the scholars are confused about what verse 18 says then they must be confused about a paragraph break also. I guess everyone is confused except you.

The confusion is what "suppression of the truth" refers to. The context of v.18-21 is clear. When fools in their foolish hearts suppress the truth, they are rejecting the FACT that God exists. Paul even quoted from Psa 14 and 53 in 3:10-12. Just because you ignore that FACT doesn't lessen my point at all.

quote:

4. Suppression of the truth in unrighteousness
Unrighteousness in and of itself is a suppression of the truth. Was Cornelius unrighteous? By all means yes; otherwise he would not need the Savior. Therefore he, in his unrighteousness, suppressed the truth.

I just can't help your failure to grasp what Rom 1 is saying. Suppression of truth is rejection of the divine truth that God reveals to everyone.

Such divine truth or revelation begins with His existence. Some reject it and we rightly call them fools, as Psa 14 and 53 does.

Some recognize and honor God by believing the divine truth that God has given to everyone. As Cornelius did.

When those who believe the divine truth that God reveals, and begin to seek God, which man WAS created for, per Acts 17:27, God will provide MORE divine truth.

When the angel appeared to Cornelius, do you think it was divine truth or not? Hint: God sent the angel to give a message to Cornelius.

When God sent Peter with the gospel to Cornelius, do you think it was divine truth or not? No hints this time. [;)]



FreeGrace -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 4:21:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SureHope

FG
quote:

Are you aware of Acts 17:27? It tells us why God created mankind; in order to seek Him.

Are you aware that God created us to love Him with every fiber of our being? No one has done that. In the same way there is no one in and of themselves who seeks God, no not one.

Acts 17:27 doesn't speak of inability as you erroneously assume. It does speak of the purpose of God in creating mankind.

Cornelius demonstrates one who did seek God, because he believed the divine revelation that God made evident to him as well as to everyone.



Page: <<   < prev  1232 1233 [1234] 1235 1236   next >   >>



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI