RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread

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tdd1975 -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 4:23:04 PM)
RWE quote: What do you think "holding the truth in unrighteousness" actually means? Unbelief. Surehope hit the nail on the head in post #30829 quote: The purpose of the apostle Paul in verse 18 is to prove what he had just stated in verse 17 – that righteousness is by faith. In order to prove this Paul shows that all men are under the judgment of God and are completely lacking in any righteousness that can satisfy the demands of God. All men are under the wrath of God because they lack the righteousness of God; they suppress the truth in their unrighteousness. They are in need of God’s righteousness which is only obtained by faith. The two verses are connected by “for”. Men must be justified by faith, for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all . . . men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness. I think it can be summed up this way. V 17- the just live by faith V 18- the unjust die or are dead by suppressing the truth Also verse 18 speaks of the wrath of God. Compare that to John chapter 3 (John 3:36) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. It is clear to me that holding the truth in unrighteousness is unbelief and because of this unbelief the wrath of God remains on them. Ro 1 is refering to all of mankind not just a certain group. (Ephesians 2:3) among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. Do you agree that Ro 1 is referring to all of mankind or do you agree with free that it is only fools?

FreeGrace -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 4:31:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rwe2156 I haven't commented about Cornelius, but here's what I see: I think Cornelius truly did have some kind of knowledge about God and God responded by giving him the vision to seek out Peter and Cornelius, an uncirumcised gentile Roman centurion was ultimately saved, illustrating God's purpose in salvation is open to any man, not just a chosen few. Youo are quite perceptive. Romans 1 flatly states that God has made evident to mankind His existence. So, clearly Cornelius believed that truth that God had made evident to him. quote: Maybe Cornelius heard about the events in Joppa, right up the road, and wanted to hear more about this man Peter, but only out of curiosity - he wanted to talk to the man who raised the woman Tabitha. Regardless of why Cornelius called to see Peter is irrelevant - it was God's purpose to show Peter he must bring the message to the gentiles, too. No, it's NOT irrelevant. From what the angel told him, seems he had never even heard of Peter before the angel showed up. quote: So did Cornelius respond to the gospel because of a prior acknowledgment based on some evidence he saw, that he was gradually brought to faith by incremental revelation of God? Do you want to deny that he believed what God had made evident to him per Romans 1? Do you want to deny that he believed what the angel sent from God told him to do? I know you cannot deny that he believed the message from Peter. That is 3 different "levels" of divine revelation that he responded to. You may call it "incremental", "levels" or whatever. However, you see my point. quote: Sorry, I don't see it here. It seems to me he had heard of Peter and wanted to hear from him, but God's purpose was for Peter to bring the message of salvation to him and his household. No, seems he was unaware of Peter until the angel appeared to him and told him God was answering his prayers and to send for Peter, by whose words he would be saved. Acts 11:14 quote: I see more of a refutation of election here than anything else. That should be clear as well. [:)] quote: The gospel is for all men everywhere, but only some will believe. I would appreciate your comments. I have consulted no references or commentaries. Now you have them. I am interested in your response to my "3 leves" of divine revelation to Cornelius.

john_mark -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 4:50:30 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: kelman Since the crucifixion was foreknown by God, could these men have done differently? Men choose what they want to think and to do; in fact, they could do no other than choose. Yet, all his choices are determined by the eternal decrees of God. so when the christian sins, even though God foreknows his sin, his sin is determined by God? yet paul tells us No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. so how does God provide away of escape if no escape is possible?

FreeGrace -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 5:55:13 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: john_mark quote: ORIGINAL: kelman Since the crucifixion was foreknown by God, could these men have done differently? Men choose what they want to think and to do; in fact, they could do no other than choose. Yet, all his choices are determined by the eternal decrees of God. so when the christian sins, even though God foreknows his sin, his sin is determined by God? yet paul tells us No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. so how does God provide away of escape if no escape is possible? Great question, john_mark! The calvinists haven't been able to answer my questions. They probably won't be able to answer yours. But keep 'em up!

rwe2156 -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 8:39:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond You have never proved that salvation (repentance, new birth, belief, good works resulting from salvation, etc) are causes of only the man. Boy do I communicate poorly! I do not need to it this because I don't believe it. I am contending that man the ONLY thing man is able to do is repent, period. I DO believe man's heart must be prepared to believe. If you read them carefully, my questions are about repentance NOT salvation. I don't recall you ever specifically answering them. Sorry if youdid I missed it. Maybe it is better to go onto new questions and new points? [:)] KJB

rwe2156 -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 8:50:39 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Caric Why do you not believe what the bible says? [sm=eek.gif] The bible makes it crystal clear that God isn't just capable of foreknowledge. He's omnipotent as well as omniscient! [8\|] The bible is where we get the truth that God chooses and predestines. So again, why do you make up beliefs that contradict the bible? Why do you persist in believing that God is less powerful than the bible says he is? Evil is what God is not. God is not evil. Evil does what God hates. God does not do evil. Sin cannot exist in the presence of God. God cannot cause sin. God created this world and this creature man for fellowship and glory. Fellowship is false if it is coerced. God is not glorified by forcing his creation to love him. God is patient with his creation, not wanting anyone to perish but for every one of his creation to repent and believe. Tell me, did God micromanage Satan's testing of Job, or did God simply place a limit on evil? Your view of God's omiscience pictures God whispering in Satan's ear what evil deed to do next, no?

KingJamesBond -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 9:01:00 PM)
FreeGrace, quote: What is so difficult about understanding that when God makes Himself evident to mankind, that man is faced with 2 options. Either accept as true (believe) that evidence, or reject that evidence (suppression of that truth). We have Cornelius who accepted that evidence, proven by the FACT that he reverenced God and prayed continually. He did NOT suppress that truth. We also know that fools say in their hearts, there is no God. They DID suppress that truth. Enough of Cornelius, why dont you use me and my life history as your prime example? 2 options huh? Why use a guy like Cornelius as an example when you can use a guy like me that was as depraved as depraved could be? How do you explain ME and MY situation when I was totally opposite of Cornelius? How do you explain ME and MY position when I was totally opposed to God? Why did God reveal Himself to me when I was in total suppression of the truth? I did not pray at all, let alone continually. I did not reverence God......at all. Why did God reveal Himself to me when I was doing ALL the wrong things? I will be the first person to admit I suppressed the truth. I had nothing to do with God. quote: So, clearly Cornelius believed that truth that God had made evident to him. I was actually involved in false religions and cults and I constantly did research into them. I was by no stretch of the imagination a good guy doing good things for my fellow man. I was involved in all sorts of bad and evil things that I would be embarrassed to even mention here. So explain it! [:'(] How do you explain my situation compared with wonderful Cornelius? I was doing all the wrong things and doing nothing right. Your doctrine cant explain it. Your doctrine has no way of explaining it. What happened to me was not anything free-will could have ever done. Free-will is no miracle. What happened to me was nothing short of a miracle.....it was a miracle from God! I know exactly how to explain it in the truth that you do not accept. It is clear; Romans 9 (NLT); 15 For God said to Moses, “I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.” 16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it. 17 For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.” 18 So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. Here it is in NASB; 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy. Yes.......God had mercy on me a wretched sinner and it had nothing to do with me willing or running. quote: There! You finally got it! What is missing from Acts 13:48 is "God". Luke never mentioned Him. These people were very interested in what Paul was preaching. Just what do you think he was preaching about? The gospel, which is eternal life. The Gentiles arranged themselves in place to have eternal life. Wrong again FreeGrace, it does not work that way; Acts 18; 27 Apollos had been thinking about going to Achaia, and the brothers and sisters in Ephesus encouraged him to go. They wrote to the believers in Achaia, asking them to welcome him. When he arrived there, he proved to be of great benefit to those who, by God’s grace, had believed. The grace of God causes people to believe. who, by God’s grace, had believed. [:)] KJB

rwe2156 -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 9:04:05 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: tdd1975 RWE quote: What do you think "holding the truth in unrighteousness" actually means? Unbelief. I think it refers to man denying God even though he has made himself known through his creation. I think there is a general call on all men to the revelation of God through his creation. Ever seen a sunset off the Gulf of Mexico? quote: Do you agree that Ro 1 is referring to all of mankind or do you agree with free that it is only fools? Its referring to human willful rejection of the truth, either by what they say or what their lifestyle shows. There is a natural revelation of God in nature - IOW God is obvious but some men choose to reject or suppress this knowledge. Does all mankind do it? Certainly not. Many believe God created everything but have never responded to the special revelation of God - the gospel of Jesus Christ.

rwe2156 -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 9:15:28 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FreeGrace I am interested in your response to my "3 levels" of divine revelation to Cornelius. Do you want to deny that he believed what God had made evident to him per Romans 1? Do you want to deny that he believed what the angel sent from God told him to do? I know you cannot deny that he believed the message from Peter. That is 3 different "levels" of divine revelation that he responded to. You may call it "incremental", "levels" or whatever. However, you see my point. I see your point. Once I denied God even existed, but in my heart I knew there was something else. Someone gave me a Bible in 1978. I shelved it and 10 years later read some of it out of curiosity. I remember it seemed unintelligible to me. Some years later after the miracle of the birth of my first child was another revelation. We started attending church. 5 years or so later during a crushing life struggle(by this time I had joined the church, even taught Sunday School) my mind turned to God on a much deeper level. I was not saved yet. Very soon afterward I noticed very real changes in my thoughts and desires. They were centering more and more on God and continue to this day with even more intensity to know the Truth personally. This is proof of my conversion: my heart and mind were turned toward God and he made me born again as a completely new person. Every time I run across one of my old college buddies and I tell them I am a born again Christian, they are amazed. God continues to give me incremental revelations of him day by day. So yes, I do believe God can reveal himself incrementally and step by step the unbeliever will move toward repentance and faith.

loloidong -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 9:30:00 PM)
Everything works towards the purposes of God, even towards our believing in Jesus. And he has not failed once.

SureHope -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 9:41:25 PM)
FG, quote: I think it's quite telling that the reformed will not give an answer to my 5 simple questions. I think it is because you actually know what the answers are from the text, yet you cannot admit it. I clearly answered all five questions. I guess you have a short memory or didn't read my answers very carefully, but I did answer them and you thanked me. I think your statement above shows that your main purpose is trying to win an argument and not trying to understand what others are saying.

SureHope -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 9:45:18 PM)
FG, quote: Acts 17:27 doesn't speak of inability as you erroneously assume. It does speak of the purpose of God in creating mankind. I did not say that Acts 17:27 speaks of inability. I said that just as the purpose of man is to love God with all of his being is impossible for fallen man, so is seeking God - none have done it, no not one.

KingJamesBond -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 10:42:43 PM)
rwe2156, quote: Boy do I communicate poorly! I do not need to it this because I don't believe it. I am contending that man the ONLY thing man is able to do is repent, period. I DO believe man's heart must be prepared to believe. If you read them carefully, my questions are about repentance NOT salvation. I don't recall you ever specifically answering them. Sorry if youdid I missed it. You did not communicate poorly. Repentance was included in my post; quote: ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond You have never proved that salvation (repentance, new birth, belief, good works resulting from salvation, etc) are causes of only the man. I am basically saying that you have not proved any of those things are caused initially by man. I know men repent. I have no problem at all undertsanding that. All of your questions do nothing to explain or prove that there is or is not a motive force or power that causes men to repent. The questions are not even valid to the entire issue. quote: I am not a total Arminian. I do not ignore this verse. I admit it has caused my trouble. But prooftexting is wrong. This verse must be interpreted, not literally read and it must be interpreted after seeing ALL the Bible has to say about predestination and man's responsibility. Would the following help you out in understanding? (This message shows that God chooses people according to his own purposes; 12 he calls people, but not according to their good or bad works.) She was told, “Your older son will serve your younger son.” 13 In the words of the Scriptures, “I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau.” 14 Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? What kind of a call is it that God would choose people according to His own purpose and not according to their good or bad works? By the way, repenting is still a good work. In other translations it is even clearer; 11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand He chose one over the other before they were even born or did anything. They were not even born, so dont you think that kind of rules out repentance? If you say it is just some general call for all people to repent, how do you explain He rejected calling Esau to repent? If you say it is an effectual calling of the elect to salvation, you still must see that Esau was rejected. How do you explain it away either way? You cant. Your POV leads to the concept that if God rejected a person with either an outward call, or an inner effectual call, He would not be fair. Paul knew that people would think that same exact way; 14 Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not! God was not unfair. He loved one and rejected another before they were born, before they even did anything.....and God was not unfair. Dont you think that kind of rules out people "doing anything" as being the cause? The text continues; 15 For God said to Moses, “I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.” 16 So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it. Isnt that clear enough? 17 For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.” 18 So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen. Yes, God does it. 19 Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding? Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?” Some people respond with a question similar to that. Why does He still blame them when they are unable to respond? They say......"well if God caused it and did not give all people the same opportunity to respond He cant blame the people because that would make Him a guilty sinful meanie". We find out that God is not to be blamed even if He chooses people before they are born, even if it is all according to His own purpose, and it has nothing to do with people doing anything; 20 No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?” 21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into? He has the right because it is all His stuff. Bugs are His, fish are His, fire is His, dirt is His, eyeballs are His, wills are His, human beings are His, everything is His. It all belongs to Him to do with as He wills. Souls are also His. They belong in the ultimate sense to Him to do with as He pleases. 22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction. 23 He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory. 24 And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles. I dont know what to tell you other than since you have been brought to Jesus Christ you have nothing at all to commend yourself for at all. Nothing. A big fat nothing. A real response to such truth can leave a person humbled to the lowest level a person could ever be humbled to. The most a person can really say about the entire situation if they have come to Jesus Christ is......... "Thank you Lord for having mercy on me". I can promise you that you will never get me to give any praise, credit, or sermons about my will. My will aint worth a rotted dead man in the grand scheme of things. KJB

KingJamesBond -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 10:49:28 PM)
SureHope, quote: I clearly answered all five questions. I guess you have a short memory or didn't read my answers very carefully, but I did answer them and you thanked me. I think your statement above shows that your main purpose is trying to win an argument and not trying to understand what others are saying. I am starting to think the only people that have ever really answered his questions are those that agree with his POV. [;)] As for everybody else, they are too afraid to answer......even while giving their answers. LOL [:D] KJB

tdd1975 -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 11:00:39 PM)
quote: I think it refers to man denying God even though he has made himself known through his creation. I think there is a general call on all men to the revelation of God through his creation. Ever seen a sunset off the Gulf of Mexico? And men are without excuse. I agree quote: Its referring to human willful rejection of the truth, either by what they say or what their lifestyle shows. There is a natural revelation of God in nature - IOW God is obvious but some men choose to reject or suppress this knowledge. Does all mankind do it? Certainly not. (Romans 1:18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. If that is true then there is no wrath of God against them because they are godly and righteous. Why would they even need a savior? quote: Many believe God created everything but have never responded to the special revelation of God - the gospel of Jesus Christ. Please understand me that when I say that men are totally depraved I am not saying they can't believe anything about God. Just because someone believes that God created everything doesn't make them worthy of further revelation. (Matthew 6:21) For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also. (Matthew 6:22) "The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light, (Matthew 6:23) but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness! Light represents knowledge. The very knowledge that is in fallen man is dark. If the light that is in man is darknes how great is that darkness.

KingJamesBond -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/8/2008 11:15:08 PM)
tdd1975, Amen! Reminds me of this also; 19 "This, then, is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who practices wicked things hates the light and avoids it, so that his deeds may not be exposed. 21 But anyone who lives by the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be shown to be accomplished by God." KJB

kelman -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 4:24:09 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher quote: ORIGINAL: kelman quote: ORIGINAL: FreeGrace But, the Christian faith, now, that comes straight from God. Heb 12:2 The Christian faith may come from God BUT your faith to believe comes straight from you at least that's what the freewillers always claim. Let me add a morsel to your meaty post... 1 Peter 1:20-21 (New International Version) 20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God. 1 Peter 1:21 (King James Version) 21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God. It's painfully obvious that faith to believe, comes by God, and through God in Christ. Anything else is simply unbiblical. Since we get never get too full of the Word of God, Manna, here's a few more "morsels". In addition to Ephesians 2:8, God speaks of faith elsewhere as being given by Him - His gift. Luke describing the work of Apollos in Achaia as he strengthened the Christians there: .....who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: -Acts 18:27 Just as Paul faithfully teaches that repentance is a gift of God, so he teaches that, yes, faith also, is the gift of God - all by His grace. For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; -Philippians 1:29 Man can have plenty of his own faith, that the plane will fly, the elevator will go up; but, man cannot have spiritual faith of his own. That faith can only come from God and will always bear fruit, it cannot help but do so since this faith is a fruit of the Spirit(Gal 5:22). How clearly Scripture teaches us, saving faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit - *not* the fruit of man.

kelman -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 4:35:25 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rwe2156 quote: ORIGINAL: kelman quote: ORIGINAL: rwe2156 quote: ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond According to free-will theology, people would be saved because they did something good. 100% totally inaccurate statement, KJB. Will you EVER answer any of my questions? Here they are: 1) Does God command sinners to repent? Yes 2) Does God desire sinners to repent? Yes 3) Does God rejoice when sinners repent? The angels rejoice, we know that. We know, from the following passages, Christ "rejoices" when we become saved so repentance is certainly implied. "As the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you. -Isaiah 62:5" "The Lord your God in your midst, The Mighty One, will save; He will rejoice over you with gladness, He will quiet you with His love, He will rejoice over you with singing. -Zephaniah 3:17" 4) Does God patiently give sinners time to repent? Not in the way I think you mean - notwithstanding Jezebel. God knows the beginning from the end so we cannot say He "waits patiently". He gives the gift of repentance to all He saves. The only sense God waits is that He doesn't bring the immediate judgment of damnation as He did with Ananias and Sapphira. 5) Who do you blame when you sin? Me, who else? 6) Who do you grieve when you sin? Because I'm actively disobeying the Lord who paid a very heavy penalty for that sin. You could be asked a similar question. Not sure why anyone should bother answering your questions..because when they do you don't bother to reply to those answers OR any questions posed to you. Kelman - I PROMISE you, I will respond if you answer them. As for not responding, I think I responded to Surehope's answers. I apologize if I don't answer all questions posed to me, but I really don't remember seeing many - would you like to ask me a question? I am seeking the truth. I have no preloaded responses ready to blast someone. I simply want to know the answer to this question: Does man have the ability and free will to repent or not? NO..the same for faith. If God does not give these gifts man remains unsaved. Pages ago you asked questions specifically for the Reformed and I answered. Here is THE POST. As for your "new" set of questions, I'll answer in bold in the body of your post above.

kelman -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 4:42:30 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: john_mark quote: ORIGINAL: kelman Since the crucifixion was foreknown by God, could these men have done differently? Men choose what they want to think and to do; in fact, they could do no other than choose. Yet, all his choices are determined by the eternal decrees of God. so when the christian sins, even though God foreknows his sin, his sin is determined by God? yet paul tells us No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it. so how does God provide away of escape if no escape is possible? 1Cor 10:13 isn't speaking of sin. It's speaking of trials, tests; and, God certainly does impose these on people. Adam was tested, Paul's affliction of the "thorn in the flesh"; Job's trials. Nothing is ever done outside the determinate will of God. God "controls all things by means of all things in accordance with his will".

TheosCentric -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 5:42:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: rwe2156 quote: THEO: God Elects, Man responds, God saves. Yeah, like Pavlov's dogs responded. No, I think its MAN MUST RESPOND. So God does not elect? You fight against scripture? (Rom 8:28 ESV) And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. (Rom 8:29 ESV) For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. (Rom 8:30 ESV) And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified. (Rom 8:31 ESV) What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? (Rom 8:32 ESV) He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things? (Rom 8:33 ESV) Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies. (Rom 8:34 ESV) Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died--more than that, who was raised--who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us. (Rom 8:35 ESV) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword? (Rom 8:36 ESV) As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered." (Rom 8:37 ESV) No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. (Rom 8:38 ESV) For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, (Rom 8:39 ESV) nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. quote: ORIGINAL: FreeGrace quote: ORIGINAL: TheoCentric quote: ORIGINAL: FreeGrace quote: ORIGINAL: TheoCentric quote: ORIGINAL: FreeGrace quote: ORIGINAL: TheoCentric Here's a quick question for the non-reformists: Does our faith come from ourselves or from God? Think carefully and search scripture before answering. Excellent advice to search Scriptures first. Rom 10:10 is quite clear, I think. "for with the heart man belives, resulting in righteousness". iow, man believes, and God saves. Once again, you give a works-based salvation answer. Gee, I didn't know that Rom 10:10 teaches a works based salvation! I wonder if Paul knew what he was preaching? [:D] I was referencing your interpretation of the verse. In your view, man always does something apart from God to be saved. Why do you think that believing is "apart from God"? Man cannot believe until God reveals the truth to him, right? So, how is that "apart from God". We know from Romans 1 that God made the first move toward mankind by making evident His existence. How is that "apart from God"? It isn't. It is DIRECTLY FROM GOD, just as the text says. If God hadn't made Himself evident, man would have an excuse for not recognizing, honoring and thanking Him. But because He has done so, man has no excuse. You read way too much into what I said. I never said that believing was apart from God. I was interpreting your view in that. That is how I see your view. That is not my view, so stop trying to turn it on it's head to make me look like the idiot. quote: quote: quote: quote: Again: Where does faith come from? Or who is the author of faith? Oh, now you are asking a somewhat different question. I though you were meaning where does "belief" come from. But, the Christian faith, now, that comes straight from God. Heb 12:2 The gospel comes from God. Rom 1:16 Salvation comes from God. Acts 28:28 Righteousness comes from God. Rom 1:17 The Holy Spirit comes from God. John 14:26 Forgiveness comes from God. Acts 10:43 Justification comes from God. Rom 3:24 Hopefully that will clear things up for you. May I ask you a question? Could you review post 30769 and tell me what you disagree with? Thanks. I asked the same question, just worded another way. I never said anything about belief, but based on that, one cannot believe unless God draws them, correct? Yes, I agree. And from Romans 1, I consider that what God has made evident about Himself IS the drawing from God. Man has no excuse for not recognizing and being thanking to Him. Cornelius demonstrates an unbeliever who DID recognize, honor and thank God. Fools, otoh, demonstrate those who suppress the truth that God has made evident to them. quote: One thing you must look at in Cornelius' salvation is the purpose of God in it. When Peter had his dream, what did God tell him? What was once unclean, I have made clean. Cornelius was a Gentile. The Gentiles were not of God's people, according to Jewish theology, especially to a good Jew like Peter. Peter was given a chance to see that the Gospel was not just for the Jews. The Gospel was going to be spread to all nations. Paul indicates this all through the book of Romans. That's true, but that's not the point. Cornelius as an unbeliever recognized, honored, and thanked God through prayers. He had no excuse not to, as Romans 1 claims. Fools, otoh, are without excuse when they say, there is no God, since God HAS MADE EVIDENT HIMSELF TO THEM. quote: God was teaching Peter a lesson here. To not be hardened toward the Gentiles. We know that Peter still didn't learn the whole lesson as later he sided with the Judaizers on the whole circumcision issue and Paul confronted him about it. What is the point of any of this? Please focus on what Cornelius demonstrates. quote: God chose Cornelius for salvation. How so? Through faith in the truth. 2 Thess 2:13. The same way He chooses all of us for salvation. quote: There were lots of religious people during that day who "honored" God. The problem with your view is that you make it out that someone being good and maybe even honoring God, though they are not saved, leads God to save them. Wow, do you misunderstand my words! I've never said that. Her is what I've been saying: Per Rom 1, God has made His existence known to everyone. His existence is Truth. Man is faced with a choice at that point: to either believe that Truth or to reject that Truth, through suppression of it, as the fools do who say there is no God. Cornelius clearly recognized that God existed and he honored Him through continual prayers. From Acts 11:14, it seems pretty clear that Cornelius prayed for more revelation or a better relationship, because God answered his prayers by sending Peter with the gospel, and the angel even noted that Peter would have "words by which you will be saved". In a nutshell, Cornelius believed Truth at least 3 times: 1- when God made Himself evident to him at some point in his life, per Romans 1 2- when the angel appeared to him and told him to send for Peter. He could have excused the vision as just a bad pizza or indigestion, or even a hallucination. 3- when Peter presented the gospel to him and his household. Can any of you calvinists deny any of these times when Cornelius was faced with either believing or rejecting (suppressing) the Truth that God was revealing to him? quote: That's the exact opposite of what happens. I have pointed this out before from Romans 8:29-30. God Elects, Man responds, God saves. You don't seem to like the God elects part. It wipes away your theology, but it's there in black and white in the scripture. Please respond to the 3 times in Cornelius' life where he faced divine revelation known as Truth and believed it as an unregenerate man. My position is that God "chooses" or elects those for salvation who believe, which is essentially what 2 Thess 2:13 says. And once again, your position shows that man does something first. However, if we look at Cornelius, we have God revealing himself to Cornelius and Cornelius responding to that, which is Biblical. See my response to rwe on this with regards to Romans 8. It fully lists the order of God's salvation. God foreloved Cornelius and his family. He predestined Cornelius to be conformed to the image of His Son. Cornelius responded from the faith that had been granted him through grace. Who can resist God, according to Romans 8? This is not puppetry as you will so call it, I'm sure, but God revealing himself to all men, for His namesake. Some He chooses to save, some He chooses not to. Pretty simple. Oh yeah, not based on works, lest any man should boast.

tdd1975 -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 7:06:10 AM)
Freegrace quote: quote: ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond tdd1975, You are posting about good and bad. Someone that suppressed the truth would be bad......and someone that did not suppress the truth would be good. You have it right on target! According to free-will theology, people would be saved because they did something good. According to Scripture, people are saved by grace. I'm continually amazed that the reformed seem totally unable to grasp the position of free will. The correct position of free will is that people would be saved because they believed in Christ. And, according to Scripture, people are saved by grace, through faith, something that the reformed keep forgetting to mention when they note that people are saved by grace. Why is that? I ask you if not suppressing the truth was a good thing and you said yes. In your theology saved by grace through faith didn't happen with Cornelius untill he heard the gospel, correct? You have said over and over that the reason God sent the gospel to Cornelius was because he didn't suppress the truth. If you were right then for someone to even have the gospel presented to them they have to do a good thing (not suppress the truth). This flys in the face of our Lord's command to preach the gospel to all creatures. It is a false presupposition based on the human philosophy that God only helps those who help themselves. That is not the truth. God helps those who can't help themselves. He gives life to those who are dead not to those who are already living. He gives sight to the blind not to those who already see. And the gospel is preached to the poor not those who are already rich. Jesus came to save sinners not those who are already godly.

rwe2156 -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 7:12:35 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: TheoCentric So God does not elect? You fight against scripture? (Rom 8:29 ESV) For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. I fight against Scripture all the time, bro. Scripture slaps me around regularly. 1John has a great uppercut! [:D] Let me ask you - WHO was predestined, those whom he foreknew, or those who he called? Read the Scripture carefully.. Notice the sequence: foreknew....predestined.....called. Yes I do believe God elects. There are many examples of God's election, the most important being Jesus Christ, THE elect one. 1Pet 2 say what do you, Theo - God selectively chooses, or God calls based on his foreknowledge of who will believe? Here it is: "who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father." Foreknowledge of what? Which particular men he will call and save? Or who will believe?

rwe2156 -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 7:15:11 AM)
quote: TDD Jesus came to save sinners not those who are already godly. Correction - Jesus came to save preselected sinners.... .....the rest get what they've got coming to them. [:@]

rwe2156 -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 7:28:58 AM)
quote: That is not the truth. God helps those who can't help themselves. God says come to me all who are weary and heavy laden [:D] quote: He gives life to those who are dead not to those who are already living. I wish those who claim him would believe this, too! quote: He gives sight to the blind not to those who already see. And those who already see, only see dimly. [:)] quote: And the gospel is preached to the poor not those who are already rich. Huh? You mean poor in spirit? Paul Washer said they send their best evangelists to the "haves". TDD - let me ask you this: If you didn't think it was possible for ANY man to be saved, how long would you witness to someone before you would decide they were simply not one of God's "elect"? I have been witnessing to my receptionist for 15 years, bro. 2 weeks ago I took her to church. When I told her sister, who has been witnessing to her for 25 years, she cried she was so happy. What do I do now? She hasn't been back to church since or asked me any questions about her salvation. I've given her alot of literature and tracts over the years, but she has never asked me any questions about anything. So what do I assume? God has chosen her? Whats up with it - its been 15 years. God has not chosen her? Why did she want to go to church? She WANTED to go to church. If its already been decided why keep trying? Does God need my help? BUT - if she needs to make a personal decision to repent, this could be what FreeGrace calls this "incremental revelation" whereby it could be the first step towards salvation for this woman. Something has stirred her heart. I'll keep praying for her. Who cares how it was stirred................. Later

SureHope -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 7:59:01 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: FreeGrace quote: ORIGINAL: SureHope quote: ORIGINAL: FreeGrace quote: ORIGINAL: SureHope quote: According to Romans 1, did Cornelius have any excuse if he had not recognized and honored God? According to Romans 1 Cornelius had no excuse for suppressing the truth. He needed mercy as all others who reject the light found in creation. In other words, Cornelius fearing God and praying does not negate the fact that all, including Cornelius, have suppressed the truth in unrighteousness. Show the wording what claims that all men suppress the truth. 1. Note the term “all” in verse 18. All is referring to ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. What are these men doing in their ungodliness and unrighteousness? Suppressing the truth in unrighteousness. All fallen men are ungodly and unrighteous. In their unrighteousness they suppress the truth. All fallen men, including Cornelius, have suppressed the truth in their unrighteousness. What you fail to consider is what "suppressing the Truth" means. Read a little farther along and you will see it refers to what God has revealed to everyone, His existence. First, I do not fail to consider what suppressing the truth means. That had nothing to do with my argument that has demonstrated that all men suppress the truth. Since I have given you the wording that shows that all men suppress the truth we can now move on to discuss the question, what is the truth that all men suppress? Is it that all men suppress the fact that God exists or is it that many know that He exists but suppress the objective truth about His attributes, about His nature and the response from us that this revelation should invoke. All men suppress something that God has made evident in all and to all. because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. (Romans 1:19 NASB95) Paul tells us specifically what all men suppress. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. (Romans 1:20 NASB95) What God has made evident is not merely that He exists, but more importantly and specifically His attributes, His power and divine nature have been clearly seen. The nature of and power of God is revealed through creation for all to see and know. There is no excuse for any of us, even those who acknowledge the existence of God, for not acknowledging God appropriately. What is the appropriate response to this revelation of God through His creation? The subjective response that this should invoke within all of us is living to the glory of God and giving thanks for His providential care of us (the word translated "honor" literally means "glory"). For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks (Romans 1:21a NASB95) What all men suppress is the attributes of God, His power and divine nature clearly seen in creation and our duty to give honor and glory to Him in all we think and do. We suppress the fact that we are obligated to give thanks to God in whom we are dependent. The truth that all men suppress is not merely that God exists, but the revealed attributes, the power and divine nature of the God that does exist. There are homosexuals, for example, who admit to the existence of God and even go to church. Even though God has turned them over to degrading passions and a depraved mind, they still acknowledge the existence of God. What they suppress is the attributes of God, the nature and power of God. They suppress, twist and spin God to be that which He is not in order for them to continue in their darkness. And what is the result of our resistance to live as we were created: to show our dependence upon God by giving thanks for His providential care and give glory to Him? but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (Romans 1:21b NASB95) All men are foolish. All men have suppressed the truth in unrighteousness. The truth that all men suppress is His attributes, His pwere and divine nature. All men suppress the truth that we owe God lives that glorify and honor Him and lives that show our utter dependence upon Him and His provision of all that we need - giving thanks. This is what all men suppress in and by their unrighteousness quote: Your thinking that suppression of truth is merely sin is way off the target. I am not sure what you mean by “merely sin,” for I have never stated that suppression of truth is “merely sin.” The apostle Paul states that the wrath of God is upon all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. Ungodliness and unrighteousness are sin. What do these ungodly and unrighteous men do? They suppress the truth in unrighteousness. This could be translated, “who suppress the truth BY their unrighteousness.” So, I don’t really know what you are getting at by saying “merely sin,” but one thing I do know, the sin of suppressing the truth about God revealed in His creation brings on us the almighty righteous wrath of God. The suppression of truth is huge – it is unrighteous; it is Sin with a capital S. quote: quote: Your response to these scholars in post #29968 was, quote: If that is the position of "most scholars", then they are confused as well. If the scholars are confused about what verse 18 says then they must be confused about a paragraph break also. I guess everyone is confused except you. The confusion is what "suppression of the truth" refers to. No, your argument was that the term “for” in verse 18 started a new paragraph and a totally new topic, which goes against the very scholars you said inserted a paragraph break between verses 17 and 18. I pointed out that these scholars agree with me that the term “for” connects verses 17 and 18 and thus show that ALL men suppress the truth in unrighteousness. So, no, the confusion was not about what suppression of truth refers to, but was about ALL men suppressing the truth.

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