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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 4:23:04 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 352
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RWE
quote:
What do you think "holding the truth in unrighteousness" actually means?
Unbelief.
Surehope hit the nail on the head in post #30829
quote:
The purpose of the apostle Paul in verse 18 is to prove what he had just stated in verse 17 – that righteousness is by faith. In order to prove this Paul shows that all men are under the judgment of God and are completely lacking in any righteousness that can satisfy the demands of God. All men are under the wrath of God because they lack the righteousness of God; they suppress the truth in their unrighteousness. They are in need of God’s righteousness which is only obtained by faith. The two verses are connected by “for”. Men must be justified by faith, for the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all . . . men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness.
I think it can be summed up this way.
V 17- the just live by faith
V 18- the unjust die or are dead by suppressing the truth
Also verse 18 speaks of the wrath of God. Compare that to John chapter 3
(John 3:36) Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
It is clear to me that holding the truth in unrighteousness is unbelief and because of this unbelief the wrath of God remains on them.
Ro 1 is refering to all of mankind not just a certain group.
(Ephesians 2:3) among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Do you agree that Ro 1 is referring to all of mankind or do you agree with free that it is only fools?
_____________________________
After conversion we need bruising so that reeds may know themselves to be reeds, and not oaks.- Richard Sibbes
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 4:31:21 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
I haven't commented about Cornelius, but here's what I see:
I think Cornelius truly did have some kind of knowledge about God and God
responded by giving him the vision to seek out Peter and Cornelius, an
uncirumcised gentile Roman centurion was ultimately saved, illustrating
God's purpose in salvation is open to any man, not just a chosen few.
Youo are quite perceptive. Romans 1 flatly states that God has made evident to mankind His existence. So, clearly Cornelius believed that truth that God had made evident to him.
quote:
Maybe Cornelius heard about the events in Joppa, right up the road, and
wanted to hear more about this man Peter, but only out of curiosity -
he wanted to talk to the man who raised the woman Tabitha. Regardless of
why Cornelius called to see Peter is irrelevant - it was God's purpose to show
Peter he must bring the message to the gentiles, too.
No, it's NOT irrelevant. From what the angel told him, seems he had never even heard of Peter before the angel showed up.
quote:
So did Cornelius respond to the gospel because of a prior acknowledgment based on some evidence he saw, that he was gradually brought to faith by incremental revelation of God?
Do you want to deny that he believed what God had made evident to him per Romans 1?
Do you want to deny that he believed what the angel sent from God told him to do?
I know you cannot deny that he believed the message from Peter. That is 3 different "levels" of divine revelation that he responded to. You may call it "incremental", "levels" or whatever. However, you see my point.
quote:
Sorry, I don't see it here. It seems to me he had heard of Peter and wanted to hear from him, but God's purpose was for Peter to bring the message of salvation to him and his household.
No, seems he was unaware of Peter until the angel appeared to him and told him God was answering his prayers and to send for Peter, by whose words he would be saved. Acts 11:14
quote:
I see more of a refutation of election here than anything else.
That should be clear as well. 
quote:
The gospel is for all men everywhere, but only some will believe.
I would appreciate your comments. I have consulted no references or commentaries.
Now you have them. I am interested in your response to my "3 leves" of divine revelation to Cornelius.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 4:50:30 PM
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john_mark
Posts: 527
Joined: 7/20/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Since the crucifixion was foreknown by God, could these men have done differently? Men choose what they want to think and to do; in fact, they could do no other than choose. Yet, all his choices are determined by the eternal decrees of God.
so when the christian sins, even though God foreknows his sin, his sin is determined by God? yet paul tells us
No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
so how does God provide away of escape if no escape is possible?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 5:55:13 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: john_mark
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
Since the crucifixion was foreknown by God, could these men have done differently? Men choose what they want to think and to do; in fact, they could do no other than choose. Yet, all his choices are determined by the eternal decrees of God.
so when the christian sins, even though God foreknows his sin, his sin is determined by God? yet paul tells us
No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
so how does God provide away of escape if no escape is possible?
Great question, john_mark! The calvinists haven't been able to answer my questions. They probably won't be able to answer yours. But keep 'em up!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 8:39:49 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2043
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
You have never proved that salvation (repentance, new birth, belief, good
works resulting from salvation, etc) are causes of only the man.
Boy do I communicate poorly!
I do not need to it this because I don't believe it.
I am contending that man the ONLY thing man is able to do is repent, period.
I DO believe man's heart must be prepared to believe.
If you read them carefully, my questions are about repentance NOT salvation.
I don't recall you ever specifically answering them. Sorry if youdid I missed it.
Maybe it is better to go onto new questions and new points?
KJB
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 9:01:00 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1448
Joined: 12/2/2006
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FreeGrace,
quote:
What is so difficult about understanding that when God makes Himself evident to mankind, that man is faced with 2 options.
Either accept as true (believe) that evidence, or reject that evidence (suppression of that truth).
We have Cornelius who accepted that evidence, proven by the FACT that he reverenced God and prayed continually. He did NOT suppress that truth.
We also know that fools say in their hearts, there is no God. They DID suppress that truth.
Enough of Cornelius, why dont you use me and my life history as your prime example?
2 options huh?
Why use a guy like Cornelius as an example when you can use a guy like me that was as depraved as depraved could be?
How do you explain ME and MY situation when I was totally opposite of Cornelius?
How do you explain ME and MY position when I was totally opposed to God?
Why did God reveal Himself to me when I was in total suppression of the truth?
I did not pray at all, let alone continually. I did not reverence God......at all.
Why did God reveal Himself to me when I was doing ALL the wrong things?
I will be the first person to admit I suppressed the truth.
I had nothing to do with God.
quote:
So, clearly Cornelius believed that truth that God had made evident to him.
I was actually involved in false religions and cults and I constantly did research into them.
I was by no stretch of the imagination a good guy doing good things for my fellow man.
I was involved in all sorts of bad and evil things that I would be embarrassed to even mention here.
So explain it! 
How do you explain my situation compared with wonderful Cornelius?
I was doing all the wrong things and doing nothing right.
Your doctrine cant explain it. Your doctrine has no way of explaining it.
What happened to me was not anything free-will could have ever done.
Free-will is no miracle.
What happened to me was nothing short of a miracle.....it was a miracle from God!
I know exactly how to explain it in the truth that you do not accept.
It is clear;
Romans 9 (NLT);
15 For God said to Moses,
“I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”
16 So it is God who decides to show mercy.
We can neither choose it nor work for it.
17 For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.”
18 So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
Here it is in NASB;
16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.
Yes.......God had mercy on me a wretched sinner and it had nothing to do with me willing or running.
quote:
There! You finally got it! What is missing from Acts 13:48 is "God". Luke never mentioned Him. These people were very interested in what Paul was preaching. Just what do you think he was preaching about? The gospel, which is eternal life. The Gentiles arranged themselves in place to have eternal life.
Wrong again FreeGrace, it does not work that way;
Acts 18;
27 Apollos had been thinking about going to Achaia, and the brothers and sisters in Ephesus encouraged him to go.
They wrote to the believers in Achaia, asking them to welcome him.
When he arrived there, he proved to be of great benefit to those who, by God’s grace, had believed.
The grace of God causes people to believe.
who, by God’s grace, had believed.
KJB
_____________________________
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 9:04:05 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2043
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
RWE
quote:
What do you think "holding the truth in unrighteousness" actually means?
Unbelief.
I think it refers to man denying God even though he has made
himself known through his creation.
I think there is a general call on all men to the revelation of God
through his creation.
Ever seen a sunset off the Gulf of Mexico?
quote:
Do you agree that Ro 1 is referring to all of mankind or
do you agree with free that it is only fools?
Its referring to human willful rejection of the truth, either
by what they say or what their lifestyle shows.
There is a natural revelation of God in nature - IOW God is obvious
but some men choose to reject or suppress this knowledge.
Does all mankind do it? Certainly not.
Many believe God created everything but have never responded
to the special revelation of God - the gospel of Jesus Christ.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 9:15:28 PM
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rwe2156
Posts: 2043
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
I am interested in your response to my "3 levels" of divine revelation to Cornelius.
Do you want to deny that he believed what God had made evident to him per Romans 1?
Do you want to deny that he believed what the angel sent from God told him to do?
I know you cannot deny that he believed the message from Peter. That is 3 different "levels" of divine revelation that he responded to. You may call it "incremental", "levels" or whatever. However, you see my point.
I see your point.
Once I denied God even existed, but in my heart I knew there was something else.
Someone gave me a Bible in 1978. I shelved it and 10 years later read some
of it out of curiosity. I remember it seemed unintelligible to me.
Some years later after the miracle of the birth of my first child was another revelation.
We started attending church.
5 years or so later during a crushing life struggle(by this time I had joined the church,
even taught Sunday School) my mind turned to God on a much deeper level.
I was not saved yet.
Very soon afterward I noticed very real changes in my thoughts and desires.
They were centering more and more on God and continue to this day
with even more intensity to know the Truth personally.
This is proof of my conversion: my heart and mind were turned toward God
and he made me born again as a completely new person.
Every time I run across one of my old college buddies and I tell them
I am a born again Christian, they are amazed.
God continues to give me incremental revelations of him day by day.
So yes, I do believe God can reveal himself incrementally and
step by step the unbeliever will move toward repentance and faith.
_____________________________
The Truth is between the tensions. The "contradictions"only reflect our lack of understanding.
So we choose sides. God help us.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 9:30:00 PM
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loloidong
Posts: 60
Joined: 7/8/2008
From: Seattle, WA
Status: offline
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Everything works towards the purposes of God, even towards our believing in Jesus. And he has not failed once.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 9:41:25 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1591
Joined: 3/11/2007
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FG,
quote:
I think it's quite telling that the reformed will not give an answer to my 5 simple questions. I think it is because you actually know what the answers are from the text, yet you cannot admit it.
I clearly answered all five questions. I guess you have a short memory or didn't read my answers very carefully, but I did answer them and you thanked me. I think your statement above shows that your main purpose is trying to win an argument and not trying to understand what others are saying.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 9:45:18 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1591
Joined: 3/11/2007
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FG,
quote:
Acts 17:27 doesn't speak of inability as you erroneously assume. It does speak of the purpose of God in creating mankind.
I did not say that Acts 17:27 speaks of inability. I said that just as the purpose of man is to love God with all of his being is impossible for fallen man, so is seeking God - none have done it, no not one.
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 10:42:43 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1448
Joined: 12/2/2006
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rwe2156,
quote:
Boy do I communicate poorly!
I do not need to it this because I don't believe it.
I am contending that man the ONLY thing man is able to do is repent, period.
I DO believe man's heart must be prepared to believe.
If you read them carefully, my questions are about repentance NOT salvation.
I don't recall you ever specifically answering them. Sorry if youdid I missed it.
You did not communicate poorly.
Repentance was included in my post;
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
You have never proved that salvation (repentance, new birth, belief, good
works resulting from salvation, etc) are causes of only the man.
I am basically saying that you have not proved any of those things are caused initially by man.
I know men repent. I have no problem at all undertsanding that. All of your questions do nothing to explain or prove that there is or is not a motive force or power that causes men to repent. The questions are not even valid to the entire issue.
quote:
I am not a total Arminian.
I do not ignore this verse.
I admit it has caused my trouble.
But prooftexting is wrong. This verse must be interpreted, not literally read and it must be interpreted after seeing ALL the Bible has to say about predestination and man's responsibility.
Would the following help you out in understanding?
(This message shows that God chooses people according to his own purposes; 12 he calls people, but not according to their good or bad works.) She was told, “Your older son will serve your younger son.”
13 In the words of the Scriptures, “I loved Jacob, but I rejected Esau.”
14 Are we saying, then, that God was unfair?
What kind of a call is it that God would choose people according to His own purpose and not according to their good or bad works? By the way, repenting is still a good work.
In other translations it is even clearer;
11for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand
He chose one over the other before they were even born or did anything.
They were not even born, so dont you think that kind of rules out repentance?
If you say it is just some general call for all people to repent, how do you explain He rejected calling Esau to repent?
If you say it is an effectual calling of the elect to salvation, you still must see that Esau was rejected.
How do you explain it away either way? You cant.
Your POV leads to the concept that if God rejected a person with either an outward call, or an inner effectual call, He would not be fair.
Paul knew that people would think that same exact way;
14 Are we saying, then, that God was unfair? Of course not!
God was not unfair.
He loved one and rejected another before they were born, before they even did anything.....and God was not unfair.
Dont you think that kind of rules out people "doing anything" as being the cause?
The text continues;
15 For God said to Moses,
“I will show mercy to anyone I choose,
and I will show compassion to anyone I choose.”
16 So it is God who decides to show mercy.
We can neither choose it nor work for it.
Isnt that clear enough?
17 For the Scriptures say that God told Pharaoh, “I have appointed you for the very purpose of displaying my power in you and to spread my fame throughout the earth.”
18 So you see, God chooses to show mercy to some, and he chooses to harden the hearts of others so they refuse to listen.
Yes, God does it.
19 Well then, you might say, “Why does God blame people for not responding?
Haven’t they simply done what he makes them do?”
Some people respond with a question similar to that.
Why does He still blame them when they are unable to respond?
They say......"well if God caused it and did not give all people the same opportunity to respond He cant blame the people because that would make Him a guilty sinful meanie".
We find out that God is not to be blamed even if He chooses people before they are born, even if it is all according to His own purpose, and it has nothing to do with people doing anything;
20 No, don’t say that. Who are you, a mere human being, to argue with God? Should the thing that was created say to the one who created it, “Why have you made me like this?”
21 When a potter makes jars out of clay, doesn’t he have a right to use the same lump of clay to make one jar for decoration and another to throw garbage into?
He has the right because it is all His stuff.
Bugs are His, fish are His, fire is His, dirt is His, eyeballs are His, wills are His, human beings are His, everything is His.
It all belongs to Him to do with as He wills. Souls are also His. They belong in the ultimate sense to Him to do with as He pleases.
22 In the same way, even though God has the right to show his anger and his power, he is very patient with those on whom his anger falls, who are destined for destruction.
23 He does this to make the riches of his glory shine even brighter on those to whom he shows mercy, who were prepared in advance for glory.
24 And we are among those whom he selected, both from the Jews and from the Gentiles.
I dont know what to tell you other than since you have been brought to Jesus Christ you have nothing at all to commend yourself for at all.
Nothing.
A big fat nothing.
A real response to such truth can leave a person humbled to the lowest level a person could ever be humbled to.
The most a person can really say about the entire situation if they have come to Jesus Christ is.........
"Thank you Lord for having mercy on me".
I can promise you that you will never get me to give any praise, credit, or sermons about my will.
My will aint worth a rotted dead man in the grand scheme of things.
KJB
_____________________________
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 11:00:39 PM
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tdd1975
Posts: 352
Joined: 2/12/2008
Status: offline
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quote:
I think it refers to man denying God even though he has made
himself known through his creation.
I think there is a general call on all men to the revelation of God
through his creation.
Ever seen a sunset off the Gulf of Mexico?
And men are without excuse. I agree
quote:
Its referring to human willful rejection of the truth, either
by what they say or what their lifestyle shows.
There is a natural revelation of God in nature - IOW God is obvious
but some men choose to reject or suppress this knowledge.
Does all mankind do it? Certainly not.
(Romans 1:18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
If that is true then there is no wrath of God against them because they are godly and righteous.
Why would they even need a savior?
quote:
Many believe God created everything but have never responded
to the special revelation of God - the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Please understand me that when I say that men are totally depraved I am not saying they can't believe anything about God.
Just because someone believes that God created everything doesn't make them worthy of further revelation.
(Matthew 6:21) For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
(Matthew 6:22) "The eye is the lamp of the body. So, if your eye is healthy, your whole body will be full of light,
(Matthew 6:23) but if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light in you is darkness, how great is the darkness!
Light represents knowledge. The very knowledge that is in fallen man is dark. If the light that is in man is darknes how great is that darkness.
_____________________________
After conversion we need bruising so that reeds may know themselves to be reeds, and not oaks.- Richard Sibbes
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2008 11:15:08 PM
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KingJamesBond
Posts: 1448
Joined: 12/2/2006
Status: offline
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tdd1975,
Amen!
Reminds me of this also;
19 "This, then, is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved darkness rather than the light because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone who practices wicked things hates the light and avoids it, so that his deeds may not be exposed.
21 But anyone who lives by the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be shown to be accomplished by God."
KJB
_____________________________
For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," made his light shine in our hearts to give us the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Christ.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 4:24:09 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3713
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
But, the Christian faith, now, that comes straight from God. Heb 12:2 The Christian faith may come from God BUT your faith to believe comes straight from you at least that's what the freewillers always claim.
Let me add a morsel to your meaty post...
1 Peter 1:20-21 (New International Version)
20 He was chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times for your sake. 21Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
1 Peter 1:21 (King James Version)
21Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
It's painfully obvious that faith to believe,
comes by God, and through God in Christ.
Anything else is simply unbiblical.
Since we get never get too full of the Word of God, Manna, here's a few more "morsels".
In addition to Ephesians 2:8, God speaks of faith elsewhere as being given by Him - His gift.
Luke describing the work of Apollos in Achaia as he strengthened the Christians there:
.....who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: -Acts 18:27
Just as Paul faithfully teaches that repentance is a gift of God, so he teaches that, yes, faith also, is the gift of God - all by His grace.
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; -Philippians 1:29
Man can have plenty of his own faith, that the plane will fly, the elevator will go up; but, man cannot have spiritual faith of his own. That faith can only come from God and will always bear fruit, it cannot help but do so since this faith is a fruit of the Spirit(Gal 5:22).
How clearly Scripture teaches us, saving faith is a fruit of the Holy Spirit - not the fruit of man.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 4:35:25 AM
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kelman
Posts: 3713
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: kelman
quote:
ORIGINAL: rwe2156
quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
According to free-will theology, people would be saved
because they did something good.
100% totally inaccurate statement, KJB.
Will you EVER answer any of my questions?
Here they are:
1) Does God command sinners to repent? Yes
2) Does God desire sinners to repent? Yes
3) Does God rejoice when sinners repent? The angels rejoice, we know that. We know, from the following passages, Christ "rejoices" when we become saved so repentance is certainly implied.
"As the bridegroom rejoices over the bride, so shall your God rejoice over you. -Isaiah 62:5"
"The Lord your God in your midst, The Mighty One, will save; He will rejoice over you with gladness, He will quiet you with His love, He will rejoice over you with singing. -Zephaniah 3:17"
4) Does God patiently give sinners time to repent? Not in the way I think you mean - notwithstanding Jezebel. God knows the beginning from the end so we cannot say He "waits patiently". He gives the gift of repentance to all He saves. The only sense God waits is that He doesn't bring the immediate judgment of damnation as He did with Ananias and Sapphira.
5) Who do you blame when you sin? Me, who else?
6) Who do you grieve when you sin? Because I'm actively disobeying the Lord who paid a very heavy penalty for that sin.
You could be asked a similar question. Not sure why anyone should bother answering your questions..because when they do you don't bother to reply to those answers OR any questions posed to you.
Kelman - I PROMISE you, I will respond if you answer them.
As for not responding, I think I responded to Surehope's answers.
I apologize if I don't answer all questions posed to me, but I really
don't remember seeing many - would you like to ask me a question?
I am seeking the truth. I have no preloaded responses ready to blast someone.
I simply want to know the answer to this question:
Does man have the ability and free will to repent or not? NO..the same for faith. If God does not give these gifts man remains unsaved.
Pages ago you asked questions specifically for the Reformed and I answered. Here is THE POST.
As for your "new" set of questions, I'll answer in bold in the body of your post above.
_____________________________
“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 4:42:30 AM
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kelman
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ORIGINAL: john_mark
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ORIGINAL: kelman
Since the crucifixion was foreknown by God, could these men have done differently? Men choose what they want to think and to do; in fact, they could do no other than choose. Yet, all his choices are determined by the eternal decrees of God.
so when the christian sins, even though God foreknows his sin, his sin is determined by God? yet paul tells us
No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it.
so how does God provide away of escape if no escape is possible?
1Cor 10:13 isn't speaking of sin. It's speaking of trials, tests; and, God certainly does impose these on people. Adam was tested, Paul's affliction of the "thorn in the flesh"; Job's trials.
Nothing is ever done outside the determinate will of God. God "controls all things by means of all things in accordance with his will".
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“beware lest you lose the substance by grasping at the shadow”
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 5:42:39 AM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1906
Joined: 2/26/2006
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ORIGINAL: rwe2156
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THEO:
God Elects, Man responds, God saves.
Yeah, like Pavlov's dogs responded.
No, I think its MAN MUST RESPOND.
So God does not elect?
You fight against scripture?
(Rom 8:28 ESV) And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose.
(Rom 8:29 ESV) For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.
(Rom 8:30 ESV) And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
(Rom 8:31 ESV) What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us?
(Rom 8:32 ESV) He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, how will he not also with him graciously give us all things?
(Rom 8:33 ESV) Who shall bring any charge against God's elect? It is God who justifies.
(Rom 8:34 ESV) Who is to condemn? Christ Jesus is the one who died--more than that, who was raised--who is at the right hand of God, who indeed is interceding for us.
(Rom 8:35 ESV) Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or danger, or sword?
(Rom 8:36 ESV) As it is written, "For your sake we are being killed all the day long; we are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered."
(Rom 8:37 ESV) No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us.
(Rom 8:38 ESV) For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers,
(Rom 8:39 ESV) nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: TheoCentric
Here's a quick question for the non-reformists:
Does our faith come from ourselves or from God? Think carefully and search scripture before answering.
Excellent advice to search Scriptures first. Rom 10:10 is quite clear, I think.
"for with the heart man belives, resulting in righteousness".
iow, man believes, and God saves.
Once again, you give a works-based salvation answer.
Gee, I didn't know that Rom 10:10 teaches a works based salvation! I wonder if Paul knew what he was preaching? 
I was referencing your interpretation of the verse. In your view, man always does something apart from God to be saved.
Why do you think that believing is "apart from God"? Man cannot believe until God reveals the truth to him, right? So, how is that "apart from God".
We know from Romans 1 that God made the first move toward mankind by making evident His existence. How is that "apart from God"? It isn't. It is DIRECTLY FROM GOD, just as the text says.
If God hadn't made Himself evident, man would have an excuse for not recognizing, honoring and thanking Him. But because He has done so, man has no excuse.
You read way too much into what I said. I never said that believing was apart from God. I was interpreting your view in that. That is how I see your view. That is not my view, so stop trying to turn it on it's head to make me look like the idiot.
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Again: Where does faith come from? Or who is the author of faith?
Oh, now you are asking a somewhat different question. I though you were meaning where does "belief" come from.
But, the Christian faith, now, that comes straight from God. Heb 12:2
The gospel comes from God. Rom 1:16
Salvation comes from God. Acts 28:28
Righteousness comes from God. Rom 1:17
The Holy Spirit comes from God. John 14:26
Forgiveness comes from God. Acts 10:43
Justification comes from God. Rom 3:24
Hopefully that will clear things up for you.
May I ask you a question? Could you review post 30769 and tell me what you disagree with? Thanks.
I asked the same question, just worded another way. I never said anything about belief, but based on that, one cannot believe unless God draws them, correct?
Yes, I agree. And from Romans 1, I consider that what God has made evident about Himself IS the drawing from God. Man has no excuse for not recognizing and being thanking to Him. Cornelius demonstrates an unbeliever who DID recognize, honor and thank God. Fools, otoh, demonstrate those who suppress the truth that God has made evident to them.
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One thing you must look at in Cornelius' salvation is the purpose of God in it. When Peter had his dream, what did God tell him? What was once unclean, I have made clean. Cornelius was a Gentile. The Gentiles were not of God's people, according to Jewish theology, especially to a good Jew like Peter.
Peter was given a chance to see that the Gospel was not just for the Jews. The Gospel was going to be spread to all nations. Paul indicates this all through the book of Romans.
That's true, but that's not the point. Cornelius as an unbeliever recognized, honored, and thanked God through prayers. He had no excuse not to, as Romans 1 claims. Fools, otoh, are without excuse when they say, there is no God, since God HAS MADE EVIDENT HIMSELF TO THEM.
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God was teaching Peter a lesson here. To not be hardened toward the Gentiles. We know that Peter still didn't learn the whole lesson as later he sided with the Judaizers on the whole circumcision issue and Paul confronted him about it.
What is the point of any of this? Please focus on what Cornelius demonstrates.
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God chose Cornelius for salvation.
How so? Through faith in the truth. 2 Thess 2:13. The same way He chooses all of us for salvation.
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There were lots of religious people during that day who "honored" God. The problem with your view is that you make it out that someone being good and maybe even honoring God, though they are not saved, leads God to save them.
Wow, do you misunderstand my words! I've never said that. Her is what I've been saying:
Per Rom 1, God has made His existence known to everyone.
His existence is Truth.
Man is faced with a choice at that point: to either believe that Truth or to reject that Truth, through suppression of it, as the fools do who say there is no God.
Cornelius clearly recognized that God existed and he honored Him through continual prayers.
From Acts 11:14, it seems pretty clear that Cornelius prayed for more revelation or a better relationship, because God answered his prayers by sending Peter with the gospel, and the angel even noted that Peter would have "words by which you will be saved".
In a nutshell, Cornelius believed Truth at least 3 times:
1- when God made Himself evident to him at some point in his life, per Romans 1
2- when the angel appeared to him and told him to send for Peter. He could have excused the vision as just a bad pizza or indigestion, or even a hallucination.
3- when Peter presented the gospel to him and his household.
Can any of you calvinists deny any of these times when Cornelius was faced with either believing or rejecting (suppressing) the Truth that God was revealing to him?
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That's the exact opposite of what happens. I have pointed this out before from Romans 8:29-30. God Elects, Man responds, God saves. You don't seem to like the God elects part. It wipes away your theology, but it's there in black and white in the scripture.
Please respond to the 3 times in Cornelius' life where he faced divine revelation known as Truth and believed it as an unregenerate man.
My position is that God "chooses" or elects those for salvation who believe, which is essentially what 2 Thess 2:13 says.
And once again, your position shows that man does something first. However, if we look at Cornelius, we have God revealing himself to Cornelius and Cornelius responding to that, which is Biblical. See my response to rwe on this with regards to Romans 8. It fully lists the order of God's salvation. God foreloved Cornelius and his family. He predestined Cornelius to be conformed to the image of His Son. Cornelius responded from the faith that had been granted him through grace. Who can resist God, according to Romans 8? This is not puppetry as you will so call it, I'm sure, but God revealing himself to all men, for His namesake. Some He chooses to save, some He chooses not to. Pretty simple. Oh yeah, not based on works, lest any man should boast.
< Message edited by TheoCentric -- 7/9/2008 5:48:55 AM >
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"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/9/2008 7:06:10 AM
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tdd1975
Posts: 352
Joined: 2/12/2008
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Freegrace
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ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
tdd1975,
You are posting about good and bad.
Someone that suppressed the truth would be bad......and someone that did not suppress the truth would be good.
You have it right on target!
According to free-will theology, people would be saved because they did something good.
According to Scripture, people are saved by grace.
I'm continually amazed that the reformed seem totally unable to grasp the position of free will. The correct position of free will is that people would be saved because they believed in Christ.
And, according to Scripture, people are saved by grace, through faith, something that the reformed keep forgetting to mention when they note that people are saved by grace. Why is that?
I ask you if not suppressing the truth was a good thing and you said yes.
In your theology saved by grace through faith didn't happen with Cornelius untill he heard the gospel, correct?
You have said over and over that the reason God sent the gospel to Cornelius was because he didn't suppress the truth.
If you were right then for someone to even have the gospel presented to them they have to do a good thing (not suppress the truth).
This flys in the face of our Lord's command to preach the gospel to all creatures.
It is a false presupposition based on the human philosophy that God only helps those who help themselves.
That is not the truth. God helps those who can't help themselves.
He gives life to those who are dead not to those who are already living.
He gives sight to the blind not to those who already see.
And the gospel is preached to the poor not those who are already rich.
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The bible makes it crystal clear that God isn't just capable of foreknowledge. He's omnipotent as well as omniscient! 
The bible is where we get the truth that God chooses and predestines. So again, why do you make up beliefs that contradict the bible? Why do you persist in believing that God is less powerful than the bible says he is? 