RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Theology] >> Christian Doctrine



Message

FreeGrace -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 3:37:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SureHope

quote:

ORIGINAL: FreeGrace

quote:

ORIGINAL: SureHope

FG,
quote:

Acts 17:27 doesn't speak of inability as you erroneously assume. It does speak of the purpose of God in creating mankind.

I did not say that Acts 17:27 speaks of inability. I said that just as the purpose of man is to love God with all of his being is impossible for fallen man, so is seeking God - none have done it, no not one.

Your conclusion has no basis.

Sure does –

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." (Rom 3:9-12 ESV)

Note the context - "For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin . . .

What does he do to prove this; what validation does he use to confirm his previous statement? He starts out with that term "for" again, showing here the proof of the previous statement - "all . . . are under sin" - is found in the Old Testament, "no one seeks for God." "No one seeks for God" is used as proof that "all . . . are under sin." Obviously not merely talking about a group of sinners called "fools".

Not true. Rom 3:10-12 is a quote directly from Psa 14 and 53. And Paul has already noted "foolish hearts" and "fools" in Romans 1. I'm sorry for you if you don't want to see that connection.

There are many verses that indicate that man does seek God.

quote:

quote:

Man IS able to seek God. Cornelius is a perfect example of that.

You have not and continue not to have any scriptural proof of this.

I suppose you want to deny what Acts 10 says of him? Was he NOT seeking God? Was God NOT giving him further evidence of Himself?

quote:

Quite the opposite is true; fallen man suppresses the truth about God and does not give Him the glory He deserves and does not give thanks for His providential care. Fallen man does not seek God - no not one. They have ALL gone astray. Scripture points to the opposite of what you claim no matter how you try to spin it.

You are the one "spinning" Acts 10, not me. Please show me from Acts 10 or 11 where Cornelius suppressed the truth that God has made evident to him, and did not reverence Him, nor give thanks.

Your added "glory He deserves" is not the issue in Romans 1. It speaks only of man's response to what God has made evident to everyone.

quote:

quote:

Remember, if one has "no excuse" for doing something, that MEANS they are able to do it.

Remember - you, I, and all others have no excuse for loving God with every fiber of our being . . . and it has proven impossible for you, I and all others. You have no scriptural basis for your presupposition.

You are just changing the subject because you can't deal with it. Whatever we cannot do on our own we DO have an excuse for not doing. That should be obvious to you, though "obviously" it isn't.

quote:

God does demand that which man is unable to fulfill on his own. His inability is his persistent unwillingness - it is a matter of the heart.

Unwillingness in and of itself indicates ability, not inability. Your conclusion is in error. To be unwilling is a choice. If you can't either be willing or unwilling, you have an excuse.

quote:

God commands all of us to seek Him. None of us, including Cornelius, did so in and of ourselves. We all needed God's initiative; His gracious work within.

I've noted that. Romans 1 speaks of making evident within all of us His existence so that there is no excuse for not recognizing, honoring as God and giving thanks to Him. Cornelius did all of that, demonstrating my point and contradicting your point.



FreeGrace -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 3:47:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SureHope

quote:

ORIGINAL: FreeGrace

quote:

ORIGINAL: SureHope

FG,
quote:

Your answers support my position

If my answers do support your position, you have failed to show it. Quite the opposite, the discussion we have been having concerning Romans 1 disdproves your possion entirely, for all have suppressed the truth in unrighteousness.

Your answers were of my questions regarding Cornelius, not Romans 1 specifically.

But as you previously have admitted, we cannot derive any doctrine from the life of Cornelius in and of himself.

Right. I'm not deriving doctrine from his life. I am showing from his life the example of unbelievers who do respond to what God makes evident to them, and who recognize, honor/reverence Him and are thankful to Him, as Cornelius was.

quote:

Where is the doctrine about seeking God and suppressing the truth come from?

The doctrine of seeking God is found in many passages, but the primary one is Acts 17:27, which tells us why God created mankind. Yet, you want to claim that man is unable to do so, in spite of the FACT that God created man for that very purpose!

The doctrine of suppressing the truth comes from Rom 1:18-20.

quote:

Romans 1-3, which clearly states that no one seeks after God and that all have suppressed the truth in unrighteousness.

Why do you persist in this nonsense? Rom 1 does not state that all men do not seek God. It is those who suppress the truth that do not seek God.

And it is your problem that you see no connection between Paul's use of "foolish hearts" and "fools" in Rom 1:20,21 and then directly quoting from Psa 14 and 53 in Rom 3:10-12.

quote:

quote:

Romans 1 speaks about those who suppress the truth of God's existence and deivine power and attributes.

No, it speaks of those who suppress what is known about God: His invisible attributes, His power and divine nature. Many believe in the existence of God who suppress the truth about His attributes, His power and nature.

You aren't reading my posts carefully. I noted "divine power and attributes".

quote:

quote:

Cornelius clearly did NOT suppress or reject any of that Truth. In fact, just the opposite, he continually sought for more Truth.

Since Cornelius is a human and therefore was ungodly and unrighteous, he also suppressed the truth in and by unrighteousness.

You, sir, are simply suppressing the truth of Cornelius' life.
You erroneously call these things suppressing the truth:
He honored/reverenced God
He prayed continually, indicative of being thankful and seeking Him

Your view is so far off target it's amazing that you are truly unable to see it.

He did what those referred to in Rom 1 didn't do.



FreeGrace -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 4:02:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SureHope

FG,
quote:

Why do you deny that when God makes evident divine revelation about Himself to man, that man cannot either believe or reject that revelation?

Because the apostle Paul denies it. He clearly states taht ALL ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth by their unrigheousness, are under the wrath of God.

If you would only take the time to read that carefully and with an open mind, you would realize that it speaks of ALL the unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth. Nowhere does it say that "all men suppress the truth". You are simply denying what Paul said.

quote:

God has revealed Himself to all men and all men are ungodly and unrighteous, and in their unrighteousness they suppress the truth.

That is NOT what Paul said. Paul defined what truth men suppress; God's existence, divine nature, and attributes. And Cornelius did NOT suppress that truth. His life from Acts 10 demonstrates that he responded to that divine revelation and he sought God. Your denial of that is of no account.

quote:

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. (Rom 1:18-20 ESV)

Paul undeniably states that there are none who seek after God.

Not in Romans 1. Only in Rom 3 where he quotes directly from Psa 14 and 53, which you keep wanting to deny.

quote:

What then? Are we Jews any better off? No, not at all. For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, as it is written: "None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. (Rom 3:9-11 ESV)

The reason Paul quotes Psalm 14 & 53 is to prove that "all . . . are under sin," not merely a group of sinners called fools.

Psa 14 and 53 are about a group of sinners called fools. Paul even noted them in Romans 1, so there is a direct connection between Rom 1 and 3. It is the fool who says there is no God, which is clearly suppression of the truth.

Suppression of truth is rejection of what God makes evident to us. Many people accept the fact that God exists, but then don't bother to seek Him. So, God "gives them over to the lusts of their hearts". iow, they don't get more divine revelation from God. But Cornelius didn't suppress the divine revelation that God gave him. He sought God, and found Him.

I think what bothers you reformists so much is that of a puppet actually seeking his Master. You just cannot fathom that! [:D]

quote:

Fallen man does have the opportunity to either believe or reject the revelation of God found in creation.

Thank you for so noting, because it is absolutely true.

quote:

Because of the hardness of his heart, he chooses to reject it - all have chosen to reject it.

Now you are off track once again, into your world of puppets that cannot respond until the Master pulls the strings.

Your view is clearly contradicted by the life of Cornelius. You cannot show that he rejected any of what God has made evident to him. Just the opposite; Acts 10 shows that he believed what God had made evident to him:
He believed that God existed as Creator and he reverenced and gave thanks per the phrase "God fearing" and "prayed continually".
He believed what the angel told him to do.
He believed the gospel when Peter gave it.

Do you deny all of these things where we know that he believed what God had made evident to him?

quote:

All are under the wrath of God becuase they have rejected it.

All who suppress the truth fare under the wrath of God. Those who believe what He makes evident are given more light, as we see from the life of Cornelius. Isa 55:6,7 is clear: He gives compassion to those who return to Him. Cornelius turned to Him and received compassion and grace and mercy.

Even the fools who suppress the truth of His existence are given grace, in the fact that God has made evident to them His existence. But since they reject it, He gives them up to their own lusts.



tdd1975 -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 4:08:35 PM)

quote:

Huh? You mean poor in spirit?


You are correct sir. I was thinking of

(Luke 4:18) The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

quote:

TDD - let me ask you this: If you didn't think it was possible for ANY
man to be saved, how long would you witness to someone before
you would decide they were simply not one of God's "elect"?

I have been witnessing to my receptionist for 15 years, bro.

2 weeks ago I took her to church.

When I told her sister, who has been witnessing to her for 25 years,
she cried she was so happy.

What do I do now? She hasn't been back to church since or asked
me any questions about her salvation.

I've given her alot of literature and tracts over the years, but she
has never asked me any questions about anything.

So what do I assume? God has chosen her? Whats up with it - its been 15 years.

God has not chosen her? Why did she want to go to church? She WANTED to go to church.

If its already been decided why keep trying? Does God need my help?

Something has stirred her heart. I'll keep praying for her.

Who cares how it was stirred.................

Later


God has not revealed to us who the elect are.
We don't make that call.
A calvinist friend of mine witnessed and prayed to a man in his nineties right up till his death.
He got saved just minutes before he died. My friend tells me that it was amazing.
I tell you this because I want you to understand that Calvinists don't think the way you portray them.

Of course you should continue to witness to her. Show her kindness and correct her in gentleness because it may through you that God grants her repentance. 2Ti 2:24-25

Don't be weary in well doing brother.



FreeGrace -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 4:08:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Odeliya
I dont mind criticism of FW position.I am actually here to get constructive criticism/positive commentary of C and FW from knowledgable peeps.
But we have to address the reality of each position.

Del, you noted that you understood my comments about Romans 1. What is your view of my linking Cornelius with Romans 1; in that Cornelius demonstrates an unbeliever not only able but actually recognizing and honoring God, and seeking Him through prayer?

Do you agree with C that Rom 1:18-20 claims that all men suppress the truth?

How does all of this effect your views of FW vs puppetry? Thanks.



tdd1975 -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 4:40:04 PM)

quote:

Just look at your quote above? Where do you include believing or unbelieving? All you note is that God chooses who to save and who not to. I've never seen any reformist note the condition upon what salvation or condemnation is based on.

Every time you note that God chooses, you phrase it to look like it's not based on anything other than God's "whim", even though you don't use that term, nor would you even accept that term. But that's what you are communicating, when you fail to noate the basis upon which man is saved or condemned.

One good example is the frequent quote of Eph 2:5 about we are saved by grace, when Eph 2:8 goes further to say through faith. It seems to be that the reformists are suppressing the truth about who is saved. All you note and emphasize is God's grace, and I don't deny we are saved by grace.

But, it seems you reformists never want to include "through faith" as a condition for being saved. iow, you keep presenting salvation as something God just does, without any basis other than His will. Yet, John 6:40 speaks of His Will, which is to give eternal life to whosoever believes in His Son.

Why do you keep leaving out the part about man must believe in order to be saved. Even Paul made that clear to the jailer in Acts 16:31.

You have no excuse for leaving out the basis for our salvation.


Free, no one disagrees that the condition for salvation is faith and repentance. I have not read anyone on this thread say other wise.

Freewillers only see the conditional promises in the bible and deny the unconditional ones.

(Matthew 11:28) Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

(John 5:40) And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

The promise is rest and life for the soul. The condition is coming to Christ.

Calvinists and freewillers agree on this but the unconditional promise is another story.

(John 6:37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me;

Here the promise is coming and the condition is being given of the Father.
Because nothing of man can be found in the condition freewillers reject this promise.



rwe2156 -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 6:20:35 PM)

KJB -

Since you refuse to answer my questions, I will
give you my answers abased on my presupps
and I would appreciate you telling me where
I have it wrong according to Scripture:

1) Does God command sinners to repent?

A: Yes he does - Acts 17:30; Job 36:10; Eze 14:6; clearly tells us this.

A command is implicit in Matt 4:17; Mark 1:15; Mark 6:12; Acts 2:38;
Acts 3:19; Rev 2:5, 16, 3:3,

A command is always given with a view to obedience, not a decree.

If God expects us to be obedient and we are not, who is at fault?

Warnings are given to men if they do not repent (Jer15:19

In fact, man can refuse to repent (e.g. Job 34:33; Jer 5:3, 8:4,6;
Hos 11:5; Rev 9:20, 16:9

Obedience with no choice to disobey is a farce.

2) Does God desire sinners to repent?

A: Yes, according to 2 Pet 3:9.

Any of the Scriptures that command men to repent could
be taken as a desire also because God desires obedience.

Please tell me how it makes any sense for God to desire or hope
for something he he knows he will do.

God desiring what he makes the creature do is also a farce
and does not bring him glory.

In addition, God takes no pleasure in those who will not repent (e.g. Eze 18:32)

3) Does God rejoice when sinners repent?

Yes, according to Luke 15:7, 10.

Why would God rejoice if man had no choice but to repent?

4) Does God patiently give sinners time to repent?

Yes, according to 2 Pet 3:9; Rev 2:21

Why would God wait on a man to do something if he is unable?

And the rhetorical questions:

5) Who do you blame when you sin?

A: Myself and my flesh. I am the chief of sinners.

See Romans 7 for Paul's treatise on sin and who is to blame.

God cannot and does not cause me to do what he hates.

6) Who do you grieve when you sin?

A: I grieve God and the Holy Spirit.

GOD CANNOT, DOES NOT AND WILL NOT CAUSE ME TO DO WHAT HE HATES

If man is unable to repent, seems to me you must deal with alot of Scripture.



rwe2156 -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 6:29:39 PM)

KELMAN>
quote:

RWE: 4) Does God patiently give sinners time to repent?

KELMANNot in the way I think you mean - notwithstanding Jezebel. God knows the beginning from the end so we cannot say He "waits patiently". He gives the gift of repentance to all He saves. The only sense God waits is that He doesn't bring the immediate judgment of damnation as He did with Ananias and Sapphira.

"we cannot say he waits patiently" even though that is what the Scripture says?

Please explain yourself. I am a little shocked, really.

Seems you have let your theology override a clear reading of Scripture.

quote:

Who do you blame when you sin? Me, who else?

So how can God determine everything that comes to pass without
making him the determiner of your sin?

quote:

6) Who do you grieve when you sin?
Because I'm actively disobeying the Lord who paid a very heavy penalty for that sin.

Me, too. I just finished listening to a Paul Washer sermon on the
seriousness of sin. I think we forget how God views sin sometimes.
quote:


Does man have the ability and free will to repent or not?

NO..the same for faith. If God does not give these gifts man remains unsaved.

Pages ago you asked questions specifically for the Reformed and I answered. Here is THE POST.


Please accept my apologies. I missed that post.

As always, I value your responses and respect your knowledge of your doctrine.

Even if I do disagree with a few facets of it.

[:)]



Odeliya -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 6:40:42 PM)

quote:

Only a "good" heart can believe therefore your "goodness" is meritorious; and you are subsequently saved because of the "goodness" of your heart.


No, FW says that "bad" heart that believes is made "good" or righteous, by God.

quote:

Of course God says man's heart is desperately wicked and deceitful above all things; but, freewillers just don't get it or perhaps they think God is making an exception of "their" hearts? Obviously, between the two theologies only RT accepts and believes God at His word - that God will provide the new heart to believe.


same as above.

quote:

Why is it you constantly suppose being under the power of sin is free?


FW doesnt say that we are free to save ourselves, we are free to believe. To believe you don’t have to be "good" have a "good" heart, etc. You will be given all those goodies by God, upon believing.
What you are criticizing, is not FW theology, gentlemen.
Faith is not works, there are plenty of evidence in the Bible to prove that.So if you please address the real FW view, it would be appreciated. The problem is i dont see it addressed here as of yet..



Odeliya -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 6:44:11 PM)

quote:

Kind of like I have an appointment with the dentist today and all
I have to do is respond to the reminder call from the receptionist.
I already had an appointment, but the appointment is not fulfilled
until I actually heed that call and show up.


Some here said that answering the call means you actually drilled your own teeth and put in your own fillings.You saved yourself.
( so you owe yourself 100$ if it was just a filling[sm=biggrin.gif])

I do hope thought we cleared by now that saving yourself and believing is 2 diff. things.... i hope



Odeliya -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 6:47:21 PM)

quote:

Boy do I communicate poorly!


See ? [sm=Llol.gif]Mrs been telling you that for years!



Odeliya -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 7:19:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Del, you noted that you understood my comments about Romans 1. What is your view of my linking Cornelius with Romans 1; in that Cornelius demonstrates an unbeliever not only able but actually recognizing and honoring God, and seeking Him through prayer?

Do you agree with C that Rom 1:18-20 claims that all men suppress the truth?

How does all of this effect your views of FW vs puppetry? Thanks.


1.In my short and humble experience with debating those issues Cornelius can not be successfully used as an example. I am a very realistic, down to earth woman. I never seen that argument going anywhere, besides, maybe at best RT side agreeing that Cornelius was led by Holy Spirit, but he was saved becasue he was one of the elect C style.

All the multitude of ping pong posts accomplish nothing for either side, so honestly I dont do Cornelius argument, for i see it as fruitless.

2.Correct, I do agree that it is a legitimate claim that Cornelius case is in agreement with Rom1 He was the one who had no excuse -as well as the rest of mankind- to ignore God. Glad for the fellow, he wont have to work on excuses,either for he saw , answered, was given more, will be in heaven forever.



rwe2156 -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 8:43:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
What do you believe foreknowledge means in the scripture?

To know beforehand, have prior knowledge of.

God knows everything that will come to pass.

quote:

Do you believe that God looks into the future to see who will believe?

Yes.

quote:

If so, then you believe in Open Theism,
a heresy that theologians such as Greg Boyd espouse.

I understand it as the classic Arminian view. Am I wrong?

Don't know much about Open Theism, but I'll tell you
anything that goes against your theology you will
call a heresy, so I'm not particularly impressed by
your accusation.

I will take a look at the theology and get back to you.

quote:

I use to think this way until I further studied what
foreknowledge really means. It's more of a fore loved, not foreknow.

Interesting.

Just curious - did you use Calvinist reference materials in your study?



rwe2156 -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 8:48:13 PM)

Free -

I looked up the Greek translated "believes" in John 3:16.

Interested in knowing what the parsing of the word reveals?



FreeGrace -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 8:51:29 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tdd1975
Free, no one disagrees that the condition for salvation is faith and repentance. I have not read anyone on this thread say other wise.

You ignore my point. The reformists always quote Eph 2:5 and rarely if ever quote Eph 2:8.



FreeGrace -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 8:54:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Odeliya
FW doesnt say that we are free to save ourselves, we are free to believe. To believe you don’t have to be "good" have a "good" heart, etc. You will be given all those goodies by God, upon believing.
What you are criticizing, is not FW theology, gentlemen.
Faith is not works, there are plenty of evidence in the Bible to prove that.So if you please address the real FW view, it would be appreciated. The problem is i dont see it addressed here as of yet..

I don't expect to see the real pov of FW ever addressed by the reformists, Del, because I am becoming convinced that they aren't willing to understand it. Why else do they keep on getting wrong?



FreeGrace -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 9:03:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rwe2156

Free -

I looked up the Greek translated "believes" in John 3:16.

Interested in knowing what the parsing of the word reveals?

Yep, it is in the present tense.

Also, "believe for a while" in Luke 8:13 is also present tense. So, what is the point?

btw, there are 73 uses of "believed" in the NASB in the NT.



tdd1975 -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 9:24:20 PM)

quote:

No, FW says that "bad" heart that believes is made "good" or righteous, by God.


FW says that out of bad heart comes faith?

Jesus said that an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth that which is evil.



Odeliya -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 10:14:09 PM)

i used "bad" as contrast to "good" heart. Meaning bad - unregenerated, and "good" - new, regenerated one given by God.



KingJamesBond -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 10:52:21 PM)

Odeliya,

quote:

Romans 3:27-28 says “Where then is boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? Of works? No, but by a law of faith. For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.”
Note what these verses teach:
(1) that we are not saved by works,
(2) that we are saved through faith,
(3) that this kind of faith that saves EXCLUDES BOASTING,
(4) that this faith is contrasted with **works**, faith then according to the bible is not considered a work that saves you.

The kind of faith that a person has when they are converted to Christianity involves humility not pride (we recognize that we are sinners, that we deserve the wrath of God and hell, that we did not deserve anything from God and yet He sent Jesus to die for our sins to die in our place, that we cannot save ourselves by any religious works, that we can only be saved when we put our trust in the Lord and HE SAVES US).


Faith excludes boasting because it is not manufactured by men.

Faith comes from God so therefore we cannot boast of our works or our faith.

Look at this text about people that do not believe (HAVE NO FAITH);

If the Good News we preach is hidden behind a veil, it is hidden only from people who are perishing.

Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe.

They are unable to see the glorious light of the Good News.

They don’t understand this message about the glory of Christ, who is the exact likeness of God.

That text is clear and it does not promote any sort of wonderful believing ability on the part of unbelievers.

They do not understand. They are blinded by Satan and unable to see.

How do you expect me to come to a conclusion that unbelievers which are blinded by Satan and unable to see, are able to see with free-will?

Being blinded by Satan does not imply a person has a free-will to see the gospel. It implies blindness. Thats why it says they are unable to see. It implies inability, not ability.

If they were able the text would say they were able. It would have said they were able to see if they would only use their free-will.

The next portion of the text is clear that I am not to go around preaching about myself;

You see, we don’t go around preaching about ourselves.

We preach that Jesus Christ is Lord, and we ourselves are your servants for Jesus’ sake.

For God, who said, “Let there be light in the darkness,” has made this light shine in our hearts so we could know the glory of God that is seen in the face of Jesus Christ.

So.....while many others may be content to speak and preach about their free-will......I am content to speak against it.

I just cant find it in me to want to preach about me. My will would be about me and there is nothing to preach about it.

I am content to preach that God freed me from the grips of Satan by His (Gods) will.

God did it and it says so.

He made His light shine in my heart.

We now have this light shining in our hearts, but we ourselves are like fragile clay jars containing this great treasure. This makes it clear that our great power is from God, not from ourselves.

The power to believe......is from God and not from us.

Crystal clear.

KJB



Carico -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 11:32:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FreeGrace

quote:

ORIGINAL: tdd1975
Free, no one disagrees that the condition for salvation is faith and repentance. I have not read anyone on this thread say other wise.

You ignore my point. The reformists always quote Eph 2:5 and rarely if ever quote Eph 2:8.


[sm=eek.gif] We quote Eph. 2;8-9, all the time, particularly to point out that faith is a gift from God, not from ourselves so that no one can boast. " But since Arminians like to boast about their faith, they don't believe that passage. [8|]



Carico -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/9/2008 11:45:14 PM)

I'd like to know what Arminians believe Jesus died for if we can choose by our own free will to not sin.



kelman -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/10/2008 2:18:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SureHope

Is it that all men suppress the fact that God exists or is it that many know that He exists but suppress the objective truth about His attributes, about His nature and the response from us that this revelation should invoke.

All men suppress something that God has made evident in all and to all.

because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. (Romans 1:19 NASB95)

Paul tells us specifically what all men suppress.

For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. (Romans 1:20 NASB95)

What God has made evident is not merely that He exists, but more importantly and specifically His attributes, His power and divine nature have been clearly seen. The nature of and power of God is revealed through creation for all to see and know. There is no excuse for any of us, even those who acknowledge the existence of God, for not acknowledging God appropriately. What is the appropriate response to this revelation of God through His creation? The subjective response that this should invoke within all of us is living to the glory of God and giving thanks for His providential care of us (the word translated "honor" literally means "glory").

For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks (Romans 1:21a NASB95)

What all men suppress is the attributes of God, His power and divine nature clearly seen in creation and our duty to give honor and glory to Him in all we think and do. We suppress the fact that we are obligated to give thanks to God in whom we are dependent.

The truth that all men suppress is not merely that God exists, but the revealed attributes, the power and divine nature of the God that does exist. There are homosexuals, for example, who admit to the existence of God and even go to church. Even though God has turned them over to degrading passions and a depraved mind, they still acknowledge the existence of God. What they suppress is the attributes of God, the nature and power of God. They suppress, twist and spin God to be that which He is not in order for them to continue in their darkness.

And what is the result of our resistance to live as we were created: to show our dependence upon God by giving thanks for His providential care and give glory to Him?

but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. (Romans 1:21b NASB95)
All men are foolish. All men have suppressed the truth in unrighteousness. The truth that all men suppress is His attributes, His pwere and divine nature. All men suppress the truth that we owe God lives that glorify and honor Him and lives that show our utter dependence upon Him and His provision of all that we need - giving thanks. This is what all men suppress in and by their unrighteousness
This is a wonderful a treatment on Rom 1:19-21...thank you. You've opened the meaning of those verses better than I've ever understood before.



kelman -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/10/2008 2:26:30 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Why are you so resistant with Cornelius? He is mentioned in Scripture as an example of an unbeliever who responded to the divine revelation that God made evident to him, with the result that he began to seek God, and God provided him with more divine revelation, all the way up to the gospel. Why does his life so bother you?
No one is resistant to Cornelius ONLY your misunderstanding of what God is teaching is resisted.

People the world over believed as Cornelius believed, Israel for instance, that didn't help them one bit. Rather, it caused more condemnation. So unless, God prepares/circumcises the heart, as Scripture demands, Cornelius AND the world over will remain in darkness.

You, otoh, insist you can prepare and circumcise your own heart...well, good luck with that.

quote:

When God presented the gospel to you, did you believe it? Maybe not the first or even the 1,000th time, but did you eventually believe the gospel? If you did, that is exactly what free will is. It is believing what God makes evident to you. And you did believe what God made evident to you.
No, it is exactly what GRACE is - not freewill. It is God preparing the heart and giving the faith to believe - precisely what Scripture teaches. Scripture teaches nothing about "freewill" with regard to salvation.

quote:

Yes, He does. The question is this: to whom does He show mercy to? Those who seek Him, as you have testified and as Cornelius has demonstrated.

Isas 55:6-7 says "Seek the Lord while He may be found; call upon Him while He is near. Let the wicked forsake his way and the unrighteous man his thoughts; and let him return to the Lord and He will have compassion on him, and to our God, for He will abundantly pardon."
You need to check the context of the verses you quote; and when you do you'll find ONLY those who "thirst" will believe the water of the Gospel. And ONLY those who thirst for the pure water of the Gospel are given water by which they will never thirst again.

Isa 55:1 Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.

Rev 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

John 4:15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.

Only those who "hear" will come....

Rev 22:7 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

....and only those whose ears God opens will hear...

Mat 11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Rom 11:8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.



kelman -> RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread (7/10/2008 2:40:38 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
Since kelman refuses to even acknowledge my pov that they can, and therefore differentiate between a "former believer" and an "unbeliever", which I define as one who has never believed, I have ceased responding to his posts which consistently mischaracterize my pov.
Since I will prove in the next post that the above is patently false....try another "antic"....this one's getting old - not to mention untrue.

Besides, why should anyone care about how "you" define biblical terms? Scripture is clear what it is to be a believer so don't be surprised when others prefer scriptural terms and concepts to yours.

quote:

The issue here is whether one who has believed in Christ and is saved can quit believing. kelman rejects that, in spite of the host of verses that say otherwise.
Nope, that's YOUR issue. The Bible's issue is if you no longer believe you are damned because that "belief" you had was not the gift of God. It was that of the "second soil" which Christ said they only SEEMED to have.



Page: <<   < prev  1235 1236 [1237] 1238 1239   next >   >>



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI