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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 8:43:39 AM
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FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace, Try and understand the basic concept that sin is evil.
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All sin and any sin is evil.
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That is the very first thing you really need to grasp. The next thing you need to grasp is that ALL people have a sin nature.
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That means by nature they will SIN because by nature they are EVIL.
uncheck. What that really means is that man sins because he has a sin nature. You need to comprehend that.
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The human nature is bent towards evil.
Not. The human nature is bent towards sin.
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These are basic and essential Christian doctrines.
This SIN nature that all people have does NOT turn people to the Light.
The sin nature has no effect on what God created mankind to do. Sorry you fail to comprehend that doctrine. Man was created to seek God, and God has made evident to everyone His existence, power, nature, and attributes, so that no one has an excuse for not seeking Him.
And you have no excuse for not comprehending this basic doctrine.
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This basic EVIL nature is HOSTILE to the Light.
Evil is hostile to the light, yes. You still have a sin nature. Are you still evil?
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"This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.
Once again, we see where reformed theology insists that "men" must mean "each and every man", when "all men" only refers to "all kinds of men". 
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"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
This verse speaks of those who do evil. This verse does NOT speak of everyone in the human race hating the light.
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Now......if you still seem to EXCLUDE Cornelius from all of this, I can assure you that your doctrine is nothing but FLAWED in the most extreme sense.
I would suggest your theology has some flaws.
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This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.
We all know that Cornelius believed the gospel. We all know that Cornelius was turning towards God. We also KNOW that this turning was caused by the work of God and NOT Cornelius.
And I've shown repeatedly that Cornelius turned to God because God made evident to Cornelius Himself, and he began to seek God as a result of that, not your supposed regeneration. Also, God created mankind to seek Him, so we know that He created man with the ability to seek.
Are you prepared to claim that God isn't able to create mankind to do what He created them to do?
The reformed position is that man is unable to seek God. What is your claim regarding God's ability to create man to do what He created them to do? Able? Or, not able?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 8:49:41 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
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ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
FreeGrace,
The question was if God commanded people to do what they were unable to do.
He CLEARLY did.
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KJB, Jesus was quoting from the Mosaic Law, right? What was the purpose of the Law?
Heb 7:19 says "for the Law made nothing perfect, and ont he other hand there is a bringing in of a better hope, thorugh which we draw near to God." The Law draws man near to God.
Gal 3:21 "Is the Law then contrary to the promises of God? May it never be! For if a law had been given which was able to impart life, then righteousness would indeed have been based on law."
Gal 3:24 "Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith."
KJB, you want to make an issue of the fact that no one can keep the Law perfectly. That is a non-issue, as these verses show.
The purpose of the Law was to draw us to God (Heb) and as a tutor to lead us to Christ (Gal).
Therefore, God NEVER intended for man to keep it perfectly, since He knew that man couldn't. But the purpose of the Law is clear. It is the tutor which leads us to Christ.
Oh is it now?
Are you disagreeing that the Law was a tutor which leads us to Christ???
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I thought our minds were suppose to lead us to God after we saw the special revelation He gave us mentioned in Romans 1?
That's why I noted the passage in Heb. I figured you were confused. I'm glad I was able to help you out here.
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FreeGrace,
Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Do you think this verse is impossible to keep? Why? Do you know what the Greek word for "perfect" means? The word is "teleios", and means "brought to its end, finished; lacking nothing necessary to completeness". What do you lack that is necessary for completeness?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 8:54:39 AM
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FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: tdd1975
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I believe you have misunderstood me, and it seems you have made some bad inferences as a result.
At no time in my response did I say "always" or "all the time". My statement is that without the Spirit, I couldn't do any of these things ever. With the Spirit, I can. Sure I slip up, but I can actually do them.
Perhaps there is misunderstandings on both sides.
Calvinism doesn't teach that men never seek God. That would be crazy.
I agree. But I suggest you check out the posts of KJB, Manna, and kelman, who have been constantly attacking my pov that man can and does seek God.
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I believe even our seeking is a gift from God.
I agree, especially since we know that God created mankind to seek Him. That is a gift. Further, Romans 1:19-20 indicates that God has made Himself evident to mankind, so that man would be aware of Him, which is also a gift.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 8:56:55 AM
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FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: bob97
Adam and Eve were a different story...when they made the decision to eat of the apple they did have free will. It was only after the fall that they would have been dead in sin and unable to reach out to God on their own.
Bob, what makes being dead in sins being unable to make a choice to either believe the divine Truth that God reveals or reject that divine Truth?
Keep in mind that God created mankind (not Adam) to seek Him, and that He makes Himself evident, and is clearly seen so that no one has an excuse for not seeking Him.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 9:15:06 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
1 Cor 2:14 is speaking of the "deep things of God", of which the gospel is NOT that. So you are using a verse out of context to support your notion.
There is no particular mention of "deep things of God" in those verses. Paul says it is the power of the Spirit which teaches NOT the wisdom or preaching of man. What is being spoken about is the Gospel...which is in and of itself "deep" enough.
You have no support for that verse to be speaking of the gospel, only your assumption.
Of course, there is support that the Gospel is what being spoken about. Paul says in the very first verse "And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God."
Do you reject that what God makes evident to everyone per Rom 1 does NOT count as a testimony? Why not? Further, v.10 speaks of the "depth" of God, or the deep things of God. These are for believers, not unbelievers.
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It is by the power of God that man gains this "wisdom". And it goes on to say that the natural man cannot know the things of God because it can be discerned only by the spiritual man - not the FOOLISH man. And men become spiritual men when they are regenerated - God no longer considers them to be fools.
Wrong. Romans 1 is clear that God has made evident to everyone what is known about God, and His power, nature, and attributes are clearly seen so that no one has an excuse for not seeking Him, which we were created to do.
FG, we're discussing 1Cor 2 - not Romans. This is NOT about the evidence of a Creator in creation.
Funny how you and other reformists always pull in some other verse to "prove" your point, yet, you want to keep me from doing it. Whether you agree or not, your interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14 ignores the FACT that God has made evident to everyone His existence, power, nature, and attributes, so that no one has any excuse for not seeking Him.
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1Cor 2 says that man gains the wisdom only through the power of God - not through the excellency of the man preaching the Gospel. It also says a man must be a spiritual not a foolish man; and, one becomes a spiritual man when one is regenerated. Otherwise he stays a "foolish" man.
Anyone who suppresses the Truth or ignores that Truth is a fool. I agree heartily.
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No, FG, that is NOT all. You have said that once a man believes the light God gives God WILL give additional light. And, that simply is not true.
You failed to get my whole point. Rom 1:21 speaks of those who "knew" God but didn't honor Him as God nor were thankful. That speaks of ignoring the Truth that God makes evident to them. Why should God give them more light, when they aren't interested. The point, kelman, is that whether one simply rejects the Truth that God makes evident, like fools, or ignores the Truth that God makes evident, like those in v.21, God hasn't promised to give more light to them. He HAS promised to those who seek Him that they will find Him
Thank you for your further explanation, FG. Not surprisingly I don't agree that only fools reject the truth. If one "ignores" the Truth, aren't they rejecting it? Many seek God; but, do not find Him.
Yes, that's what I've been saying. Rom 1:19 indicates that some "knew God" but neither honored (reverenced) Him as God nor were thankful.
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Rom 1 Makes it clear that Paul considers all, Jews and Gentiles alike, to be under the wrath of God.
No, Rom 1 makes clear that God has made evident to everyone Himself, so that there is no excuse for anyone to not seek Him. Also, Rom 1 makes clear that the wrath of God "is against all ungodliness of men who suppress the truth".
It is Rom 3 where Paul makes clear that everyone in the human race is under sin and sins.
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But, frankly, FG, it would be silly to speculate that of the multiple millions who have never received the Gospel there were not those who believed a supreme Being created this world.
Of course there are many who did believe in a supreme Being. But, did they ignore that Truth, in the sense of NOT seeking Him actively? That is the issue, which you seem to miss. If they don't seek Him, He hasn't promised them that they will find Him. The promise is ONLY to those who seek God actively, as Cornelius clearly demonstrates.
For the thousandth time FG, everyone isn't "missing" the point. We just disagree with you.
Because you miss the point. If you actually got the point, you would agree with me. 
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It would be very helpful if you could distinquish between the two....less time consuming too. If Cornelius sought God, and he did, it is because God was drawing him or had regenerated him.
The reason Cornelius did seek God was because God created him to do so, and because God had made Himself evident to everyone.
If you want to claim that God regenerated Cornelius prior to Peter giving him the gospel, you need solid support from the text, which you don't have.
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Are you now admitting that indeed God is the determining factor in your act of believing?
This clearly demonstrates my point that you have failed to grasp my pov. I've ALWAYS noted that it is God who makes evident His existence, which should lead one to seek Him. That is why man is without excuse for not seeking Him. If God hadn't made Himself evident, man WOULD have an excuse for not seeking Him. But, no man has an excuse.
What it clearly demonstrates is that you did not answer the question. Apparently you are so obsessed with Romans 1 and Cornelius you can't answer a simple question. I didn't ask about the evidence of creation. I asked you if God is the determining factor for your act of belief. IOW, did He first change your heart so that you might believe?
No, he did NOT change anyone's heart so that they would believe. You keep ignoring or rejecting my point that because He created mankind to seek Him, and he makes Himself evident to everyone, that is how He is the factor in why people believe. Those things are the HOW in the drawing work of God toward mankind.
Your pov is that God drags people to Him. You have no support.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 9:22:31 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
The "influence" of which I speak is not the evidence from creation...surely you knew that. For example, it is the "influence" of God on Judas et al concerning the crucifixion of Christ.
Nonsense. the "influence" of which you speak is really cause, force, etc. Rather, what is nonsensical is the belief God simply "allows" events to unfold while He remains aloof and non-involved....nonsensical and non-scriptural.
Your assumption that the FW pov is that God allows events while remaining aloof and non-involved is silly and erroneous. Why can't you accept the fact that God CAN allow events to occur while being very interested and involved?
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Man makes choices, he has the freewill to do so. But these choices cannot be other than what God has ordained.
Your pov is totally contradictory. Apparently words don't mean things to you. You admit man has free will to make choices, but out of the other side of your mouth you claim those choices are what God caused (ordained). Nonsensical.
It is only nonsensical to the free will mind. Man makes choices according to his nature and other determining factors. These determining factors are always determined by God's eternal decree.
btw, one of God's "determining factors" is that He created mankind to seek Him. So that means that man's nature includes that ability.
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Besides which, apart from the Holy Spirit the natural man chooses "darkness" because as Scripture tells us "and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil."
Again, the reformed insist that "men" always means "each and every one", while also insisting that "all men" only means "all kinds of men". Why is that?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 9:25:55 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
The question was if God commanded people to do what they were unable to do.
He CLEARLY did. If man was so "able", what need would there be for the Holy Spirit?.....it would appear - none.
Do you agree or disagree that God created mankind to seek Him, which comes from Acts 17:27?
If you agree, how do you reconcile your pov that man is unable to seek God, then? iow, is God the One who is unable to create His creatures to do what He created them to do?
Please explain this big contradiction in your thoelogy.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 9:29:19 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
1 Cor 2:14 is speaking of the "deep things of God", of which the gospel is NOT that. So you are using a verse out of context to support your notion. There is no particular mention of "deep things of God" in those verses.
btw, if you look at v.10 of 1 Cor 2, you will read: "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the deep things (depth) of God."
So, yes, there IS particular mention of "deep things of God" in the context of what the natural man cannot understand. From the context, the deep things of God cannot refer to the gospel.
Yes, you are correct, it certainly does make mention of "deep things of God". Even so it is speaking of the Gospel, that is clear from the first verse and the context. Paul says in verses 7-8 if the leaders had "known" what He preached they would not have crucified Christ.
Paul goes on to say that man can only know the things of God IF he is a spiritual man(vs 11-12). Those who have the Spirit of God within them "know" or understand the things given by God - the Gospel. That is what Paul preaches but the Holy Spirit teaches.
It's from verse 13 we get the principle that we must compare scripture with scripture - spiritual with spiritual.
But the natural man to whom the Gospel is foolishness can never understand until God makes him a "spiritual" man.
No, man CAN understand when God makes evident to man "what is known about God". Notice there is no mention of giving a "new heart" in Romans 1. Romans 1 contradicts your pov.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 9:39:05 AM
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umcbee
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
In the discussion regarding to whom the wrath of God is directed at, the reformed view is that God's wrath is directed against everyone in the human race.
I have frequently noted that all are sinners and in need of salvation and regeneration. However, I also note that Rom 1:18 speaks of the wrath of God being against all unrighteousness and ungodliness of men, who suppress the Truth. The passage goes on to note what Truth is being suppressed; which is the very existence of God, or that men who "knew God, but neither honored Him as God, nor were thankful". iow, some simply ignored the Truth that God makes evident to everyone. The fool flatly denies the existence of God. Both kinds of men suppress the Truth that God makes evident.
I have supported my pov from the life of Cornelius, who responded to that evidence that God gave him, and he recognized God as Creator, and honored (reverenced) Him through alms and continual prayer. I claimed that God's wrath was NOT directed toward Cornelius, since he was responding to the evidence that God has given him.
There is more evidence that God's wrath is not directed at everyone, but at those who do evil, unlike Cornelius. Even though an unregenerate, there is no record of him doing "evil". In fact, he did the very opposite: he was actively seeking God and giving alms.
1 Pet 3:10-12 says, "For, let him who means (purposes) to love life and see good days, refrain his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking guile. And let him turn away from evil and do good; let him seek peace and pursue it. For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and His ears attend to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil." This is a direct quote from Psa 34:12-16.
First, we see that those who want "to love life and see good days" must do some things: refrain their tongue from evil/guile, turn from evil, do good, seek peace and pursue peace. Please note that this is what man must do.
Also note where the eyes and ears of the Lord are: upon the righteous, and attending to their prayers. Question for the reformists: did God answer the prayers of Cornelius, per Acts 10:4?
In 1 Pet 3:12, the word for "righteous" means "observing divine and human laws, one who is such as he ought to be", from Thayer.
Did Cornelius observe divine and human laws? Yes, he did.
Did Cornelius do "as he ought to" do? Yes, he did. He actively sought God, as he was created for.
Did God "attend to his prayers"? Yes, He did.
I will repeat: the wrath of God was NOT against Cornelius, who responded to the evidence of Truth that God gave him at least 3 times that we know of.
You are not the loneranger that some claim you are FG . I am in agreement with your interpretation of Romans 1 and 3 .
If the reformed interpretation of Romans 3:10 were correct ; I wonder how they can explain Ps 14:4 ? God would have no people for the wicked to eat up if their interpretation were accurate . If there were none that understood and did not seek God , how on earth would God have any of what He calls My People in Ps 14:4 ? How would it be possible for God to be in the generation of the righteous (Ps 14:5) if Ps 14:1-3 was refering to all humanity ?
As for Romans 3:13 ; its a direct quote of Ps 5:9 : they should take note of Ps 5:11 . Again Paul is not referencing humanity as a whole as Ps 5:5 and 11 note .
Romans 3:14 quotes Ps 10:7 , those in 10:7 are described in 10:1-13 as the wicked , who through the pride of his countenance , will not seek after God .
I could go on , but the point has already been made , you are right on with your interpretation .
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kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 10:01:36 AM
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umcbee
Posts: 1687
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Mannamuncher
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
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ORIGINAL: kelman
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
1 Cor 2:14 is speaking of the "deep things of God", of which the gospel is NOT that. So you are using a verse out of context to support your notion. There is no particular mention of "deep things of God" in those verses.
btw, if you look at v.10 of 1 Cor 2, you will read: "For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the deep things (depth) of God."
So, yes, there IS particular mention of "deep things of God" in the context of what the natural man cannot understand. From the context, the deep things of God cannot refer to the gospel.
Can't weasel out so easily...
The gospel obviously includes faith,
belief, justification, redemption, etc.
These are certainly deep things !!!
Maybe not to you, but to some of us...
It always helps to understand what Paul is speaking about in 1 Cor 2 . Its easy to know by looking at who is doing the talking , and who the speaher is refering too , and what is being refered too . When Paul refers to "we" in 1 Cor 2:7 , he is speaking of to whom God has revealed this mystery , this hidden wisdom . Those it was revealed to were the apostiles . Paul is now explaining where this mystery of hidden wisdom comes from to the Corinthians . Paul is the one doing the speaking in v. 7 . In v. 10 , Paul is still refering to himself and the apostiles as the one's to whom God hath revealed them unto us (the apostiles) by his Spirit . V.s 12 & 13 also refer to Paul and the apostiles as is evidenced by Which things we also speak . The whole chapter is Paul's defence of where he received the hidden wisdom of God that he is preaching ; and v. 14 furthers his defence that the natural man could not have received all the hidden wisdom and mysteries that Paul and the apostiles had received . It is Pauls defence that he was called to be an apostile of Jesus Christ by the will of God .
That is known as rightly dividing the word of truth .
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kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 11:55:37 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
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ORIGINAL: FreeGrace
In the discussion regarding to whom the wrath of God is directed at, the reformed view is that God's wrath is directed against everyone in the human race.
I have frequently noted that all are sinners and in need of salvation and regeneration. However, I also note that Rom 1:18 speaks of the wrath of God being against all unrighteousness and ungodliness of men, who suppress the Truth. The passage goes on to note what Truth is being suppressed; which is the very existence of God, or that men who "knew God, but neither honored Him as God, nor were thankful". iow, some simply ignored the Truth that God makes evident to everyone. The fool flatly denies the existence of God. Both kinds of men suppress the Truth that God makes evident.
I have supported my pov from the life of Cornelius, who responded to that evidence that God gave him, and he recognized God as Creator, and honored (reverenced) Him through alms and continual prayer. I claimed that God's wrath was NOT directed toward Cornelius, since he was responding to the evidence that God has given him.
There is more evidence that God's wrath is not directed at everyone, but at those who do evil, unlike Cornelius. Even though an unregenerate, there is no record of him doing "evil". In fact, he did the very opposite: he was actively seeking God and giving alms.
1 Pet 3:10-12 says, "For, let him who means (purposes) to love life and see good days, refrain his tongue from evil and his lips from speaking guile. And let him turn away from evil and do good; let him seek peace and pursue it. For the eyes of the Lord are upon the righteous, and His ears attend to their prayer, but the face of the Lord is against those who do evil." This is a direct quote from Psa 34:12-16.
First, we see that those who want "to love life and see good days" must do some things: refrain their tongue from evil/guile, turn from evil, do good, seek peace and pursue peace. Please note that this is what man must do.
Also note where the eyes and ears of the Lord are: upon the righteous, and attending to their prayers. Question for the reformists: did God answer the prayers of Cornelius, per Acts 10:4?
In 1 Pet 3:12, the word for "righteous" means "observing divine and human laws, one who is such as he ought to be", from Thayer.
Did Cornelius observe divine and human laws? Yes, he did.
Did Cornelius do "as he ought to" do? Yes, he did. He actively sought God, as he was created for.
Did God "attend to his prayers"? Yes, He did.
I will repeat: the wrath of God was NOT against Cornelius, who responded to the evidence of Truth that God gave him at least 3 times that we know of.
You are not the loneranger that some claim you are FG . I am in agreement with your interpretation of Romans 1 and 3 .
I know that I am not, and that you agree. Your posts have been excellent and have given me great insight into the Word of God. Thank you.
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If the reformed interpretation of Romans 3:10 were correct ; I wonder how they can explain Ps 14:4 ? God would have no people for the wicked to eat up if their interpretation were accurate .
Isn't it always true that context is king? As well, if they want Rom 3:10-12 to mean every one in the human race, what do they do with all the rest of the verses where Paul was quoting from the OT in the same context. They've got a real problem, of which they don't seem aware.
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If there were none that understood and did not seek God , how on earth would God have any of what He calls My People in Ps 14:4 ? How would it be possible for God to be in the generation of the righteous (Ps 14:5) if Ps 14:1-3 was refering to all humanity ?
Well, of course, they would quote their favorite verse from Ezek 36 where God promises to give the Jews a new heart, or change their heart of stone into a heart of flesh. But wait, that was specifically for the Jews. I wonder what God does for their Gentile hearts? I know the Bible doesn't mention anything about what God does for Gentile hearts.
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As for Romans 3:13 ; its a direct quote of Ps 5:9 : they should take note of Ps 5:11 . Again Paul is not referencing humanity as a whole as Ps 5:5 and 11 note .
Romans 3:14 quotes Ps 10:7 , those in 10:7 are described in 10:1-13 as the wicked , who through the pride of his countenance , will not seek after God .
I could go on , but the point has already been made , you are right on with your interpretation .
Again, thank you. I'm waiting for any reply from any of the reformed on this.
They have been "kicking and screaming" that Rom 3:10-12 describes ALL of humanity. If that is so, v.13-18 AS WELL must describe ALL of humanity. How ridiculous!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 11:58:22 AM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
It always helps to understand what Paul is speaking about in 1 Cor 2 . Its easy to know by looking at who is doing the talking , and who the speaher is refering too , and what is being refered too . When Paul refers to "we" in 1 Cor 2:7 , he is speaking of to whom God has revealed this mystery , this hidden wisdom . Those it was revealed to were the apostiles . Paul is now explaining where this mystery of hidden wisdom comes from to the Corinthians . Paul is the one doing the speaking in v. 7 . In v. 10 , Paul is still refering to himself and the apostiles as the one's to whom God hath revealed them unto us (the apostiles) by his Spirit . V.s 12 & 13 also refer to Paul and the apostiles as is evidenced by Which things we also speak . The whole chapter is Paul's defence of where he received the hidden wisdom of God that he is preaching ; and v. 14 furthers his defence that the natural man could not have received all the hidden wisdom and mysteries that Paul and the apostiles had received . It is Pauls defence that he was called to be an apostile of Jesus Christ by the will of God .
Once again, we see that context is king! Thanks for your insightful comments on 1 Cor 2.
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That is known as rightly dividing the word of truth .
Amen to that!
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 12:09:27 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
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For 1,279 pages the calvinists have insisted that total depravity means total inability on the part of man to either seek Him or understand anything about Him, until God changes that stony heart to one of flesh (promised to Jews only).
Their insistence has led them to put God and His sovereignty and omnipotence into a little box without their awareness of that.
By insisting that unregenerate man cannot seek God apart from regeneration, they must deal with the purpose that God created mankind, which is to seek Him.
In effect, their pov is that although God did create mankind to seek Him (Acts 17:27), man is unable to do so. What does that mean? It means that what God created mankind to do doesn't happen. What does that say about God's intent?
I know their pov: God must regenerate man's heart so he will seek God and believe the gospel. But, God created mankind to seek Him.
It surely does NOT say that God created the elect to seek Him.
Now, why would God create mankind (all of 'em) to seek Him IF His intent was to choose only some of 'em to seek and believe?
The contradiction is glaring, to say the least.
If He intended mankind to seek Him, yet created him unable to do so, does that make any sense? I hope one of the reformed will respond to this and give the thread a clear explanation of this.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 12:11:18 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2055
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
You are not the loneranger that some claim you are FG . I am in agreement with your interpretation of Romans 1 and 3 .
I agree with Buzzy. And you on Rom 1 for sure. I will have to check whats the disagreement on rom3, after i read the posts.
But at this point nobody yet convinced me that So "they have no excuse" can possibly mean something else then "you can do it - so why dont you? "
And trust me - i know everything there is to know about how that whole excuses thing work. I invented that game .
_____________________________
Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 12:23:13 PM
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SureHope
Posts: 1591
Joined: 3/11/2007
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
You are not the loneranger that some claim you are FG . I am in agreement with your interpretation of Romans 1 and 3 .
I agree with Buzzy. And you on Rom 1 for sure. I will have to check whats the disagreement on rom3, after i read the posts.
But at this point nobody yet convinced me that So "they have no excuse" can possibly mean something else then "you can do it - so why dont you? "
And trust me - i know everything there is to know about how that whole excuses thing work. I invented that game .
I agree also that "no excuse" means you have the equipment to honor God. The question is, has anyone done it? The anwer is no, all have sinned; all have chosen not honor God by their choice to sin against Him. Everyone has the faculties to honor God by loving Him with all their being, but everyone had gone their own way; everyone has sinned. Everyone has fallen short by their sin and has no excuse for their sin.
Blessings,
SH
_____________________________
-Fix Your Hope Completely on the Grace to be Brought to You at the Revelation of Jesus Christ (1 Pet 1:13)
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 12:30:12 PM
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TheosCentric
Posts: 1906
Joined: 2/26/2006
Status: offline
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Are you all done patting yourselves on the back yet? 
I want to respond to the comment that Romans 3 is not talking about all humanity.
You seemed to have left out vs. 9 in which it says that ALL, both Jew and Gentile, are under sin.
It then proceeds to vs. 10 explaining from the Old Testament how ALL are under sin, none are righteous.
Apart from God, we cannot do good on our own. Now there might be people who "do good" apart from God, but at the core, they have a heart of sin, because they are not regenerated.
If the heart of stone to heart of flesh was to Jews only, then how are Gentiles regenerated, per Romans 2?
(Rom 2:29 ESV) But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
Very clear that even Gentiles become Jews, because of the state of the heart. Physical Jews are not necessarily true Jews, according to what Paul is putting forth throughout all Romans.
Does no one have any excuse to not believe in God? Sure, but that doesn't mean they're saved, or can believe unless God draws them. How? He regenerates their hearts.
FG: I'm going to warn you, and I have warned you before on this. Some of your posts continue to lead me to believe that you believe in universalism. If you continue down that path, you will be labeled a heretic, not just by me, but probably by several of your non-reformed patters-on-the-back as well.
_____________________________
"Missions exists because worship doesn't." -- John Piper, Let the Nations be Glad
God at the Center - Latest post - John 3:16 conference?
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 1:12:37 PM
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FreeGrace
Posts: 7210
Joined: 12/30/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SureHope
quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
quote:
ORIGINAL: umcbee
You are not the loneranger that some claim you are FG . I am in agreement with your interpretation of Romans 1 and 3 .
I agree with Buzzy. And you on Rom 1 for sure. I will have to check whats the disagreement on rom3, after i read the posts.
But at this point nobody yet convinced me that So "they have no excuse" can possibly mean something else then "you can do it - so why dont you? "
And trust me - i know everything there is to know about how that whole excuses thing work. I invented that game .
I agree also that "no excuse" means you have the equipment to honor God. The question is, has anyone done it?
Yes, all who have responded to the Truth that God has made evident to everyone. Cornelius is exhibit A, for the thread.
quote:
The anwer is no, all have sinned; all have chosen not honor God by their choice to sin against Him.
You are confusing one's ability to sin with one's ability to seek God. You have agreed that God created mankind to seek Him. Romans 1 tells us no one has any excuse for not doing it. What does sin have to do with this? Are you saying that our sin somehow "blocks" or "interfers" with what God created mankind to do? Don't you think that tends to suggest that our sin is somehow bigger, greater, more stronger than God, if so.
quote:
Everyone has the faculties to honor God by loving Him with all their being, but everyone had gone their own way
Cornelius didn't go "his own way". He responded to the divine Truth that God made evident to him. And God revealed more Truth, in the form of an angel, whom he also believed. As a result, God sent Peter with the gospel, which he also believed. How can you say Cornelius went his own way?
All I see in the life of Cornelius is that he sought God, and found Him, as Scripture promises to those who do.
quote:
everyone has sinned.
No one argues against that! But our ability to sin has zero to do with our ability to recognize God, reverence Him, and seek Him, as Cornelius demonstrates.
quote:
Everyone has fallen short by their sin and has no excuse for their sin.SH
Eh, the "no excuse" clause isn't about sinning, if you assume so. Romans 1 is about recognizing God, honoring Him, and being thankful to Him. These things can NOT be considered sinful. iow, no one has an excuse for NOT recognizing God, honoring Him as God, and being thankful to Him, all of which Cornelius demonstrated quite clearly in Acts 10.
Since we (human race) have no excuse, that absolutely means we CAN do so.
If you disagree with this, please provide a very clear and detailed analysis why you disagree, since Del has been virtually begging someone to help her understand the RT pov.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 1:14:34 PM
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umcbee
Posts: 1687
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheosCentric
Are you all done patting yourselves on the back yet?
I want to respond to the comment that Romans 3 is not talking about all humanity.
You seemed to have left out vs. 9 in which it says that ALL, both Jew and Gentile, are under sin.
It then proceeds to vs. 10 explaining from the Old Testament how ALL are under sin, none are righteous.
Apart from God, we cannot do good on our own. Now there might be people who "do good" apart from God, but at the core, they have a heart of sin, because they are not regenerated.
If the heart of stone to heart of flesh was to Jews only, then how are Gentiles regenerated, per Romans 2?
(Rom 2:29 ESV) But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.
Very clear that even Gentiles become Jews, because of the state of the heart. Physical Jews are not necessarily true Jews, according to what Paul is putting forth throughout all Romans.
Does no one have any excuse to not believe in God? Sure, but that doesn't mean they're saved, or can believe unless God draws them. How? He regenerates their hearts.
FG: I'm going to warn you, and I have warned you before on this. Some of your posts continue to lead me to believe that you believe in universalism. If you continue down that path, you will be labeled a heretic, not just by me, but probably by several of your non-reformed patters-on-the-back as well.
Review the thread and see who does the vast majority of back patting around here .
If all we had to go on in these days was the OT , then I could almost agree that God must do more than He has already done in order for anyone to believe . However , from the Gospels through Revelation , including all the espitles ; the many revelations and mysteries and light , revealed to the apostiles , that are explained in the espitles of the NT , we now have the complete revelation of God , written , and readily available for millions of people to read and study . Everything God wants us to know is revealed in the Scriptures . There are no mysteries that God wanted us to know that are left to be revealed . The truth is there , the light is there , it is there to be received or rejected by man . The Holy Spirit is in the world , convicting and convincing the world of sin , and of righteousness , and of judgment .
The reformed appear stuck on John 6:44 , which is pre-cross , and completely ignore John 12:32 which is post-cross . They never seem to accept that Jesus said He would draw all men to Himself .
I didn't leave out Romans 3:9 for any particular reason ; we are all in agreement that all are under sin .
As for v. 10 ; There are still none righteous in and of themselves . The only righteousness we have is the imputed righteousness of Jesus Christ . Even the righteousness that Abraham had was imputed to him . So verses that state that there is no one righteous , no not one ; do not substract from anything I've said , nor add any support to anything you say .
There is no Scripture that states nor implies that God draws anyone by means of regenerating their hearts first , as a prerequisite to believing . Regeneration Scripturaly , does not precede faith .
There is nothing in FG's posts to suggest that he believes in universalism ; he has steadfastly denied that accusation from the reformed . So I will warn you : be very careful of whom you label a heretic ; for I agree with FG's interpretation of Scripture . And I certainly don't support universalism .
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kingbee
Never let your education get in the way of your learning.
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 1:32:29 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: KingJamesBond
McFatty,
quote:
I believe you have misunderstood me, and it seems you have made some bad inferences as a result.
At no time in my response did I say "always" or "all the time". My statement is that without the Spirit, I couldn't do any of these things ever. With the Spirit, I can. Sure I slip up, but I can actually do them.
I dont think anyone mis-understands you.
The text that was given to you says;
Jesus replied:
"'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment.
And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
The text is clear.........perfectly clear.
The response you give only waters down the clear and perfect intent of the text.
The text was never meant to show people how good they are or how close to being good they are.
The text was never meant to show how anyone is able to meet what is required.
The text cleary states what is required and anything less than what is required does not MEET what is required.
The text should clearly show a person how miserably they fail at what is commanded.
It is called conviction.
It shows that people are not able to meet what God has clearly commanded.
Using the response you have given the text should read more like;
"Try to love the Lord as much as you can...........and try to love your neighbor as much as you can which should be almost as much as you love yourself".
All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.
And;
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
That is the first point you should work on understanding.
The entire world naturally stands condmened by God because of sin.
The entire world cannot keep from sinning even though God commands perfection.
He commands perfection and no creature is able to meet what He requires.
KJB
If I'm not wrong, according to you, no creature is able to meet what He requires because He refuses to allow them to. Is that right?
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: Calvinism/Arminianism - One Stop Thread - 7/23/2008 1:36:23 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: tdd1975
quote:
I believe you have misunderstood me, and it seems you have made some bad inferences as a result.
At no time in my response did I say "always" or "all the time". My statement is that without the Spirit, I couldn't do any of these things ever. With the Spirit, I can. Sure I slip up, but I can actually do them.
Perhaps there is misunderstandings on both sides.
Calvinism doesn't teach that men never seek God. That would be crazy.
I recall you also saying several posts back that you believe faith is a gift.
I agree with you 100% but many of the freewill thinkers on this thread disagree heartily and if a Calvinist had said it they would have been quick to take us to task over it.
I may not understand exactly where you stand on all points.
I believe even our seeking is a gift from God.
Compare these two verses again.
(Romans 3:11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (just consider for a moment that this all of fallen mankind)
to
(John 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the las | | |
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