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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:20:45 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chief
Clarify for me real quick what you meant by God allowing certain individual to believe and not others.
Well let's see Chief.. in a PM you were just telling me how that the only choice you had was to sin.. so why do I think you already know exactly what you're asking here.. why don't you tell us..
I would be interested in an answer to Chief's question as wel NIC.....thinking is a part of study and of the RT theology.
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"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:22:04 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
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Calvinists do believe strongly that history is nothing more than "His Story."
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"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:23:54 PM
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NewinChrist
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved
in the case of salvation, God changes the heart, changes the will and adds another bonus of giving spiritual insight to be able to see things as God sees them.
I agree, after a person hears the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation.. and after they believe.. God seals them with the Spirit of promise which is the earnest of their inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession..
God does the saving.. after we trust in Christ.. after we hear the gospel.. and after we believe..
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:25:06 PM
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Chief
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chief
Clarify for me real quick what you meant by God allowing certain individual to believe and not others.
Well let's see Chief.. in a PM you were just telling me how that the only choice you had was to sin.. so why do I think you already know exactly what you're asking here.. why don't you tell us..
Just to clarify that, again. Since no one here really knew what the PM really contained.
I said that in God's eyes we only have one choice. To obey and follow Christ. If sin was viable choice he would have let us do so freely without consequence. Sins sin will lead to death and destruction, if that was a choice it would have been a very very bad one.
But since I had to clarify more about my position I took the assumption that it can still be a choice even the Lord hates for us to take it. So, I said you had two choices. To sin or to obey.
We choose indeed. And I did not contend against our freedom to make choices and evaluate and decide. We evaluate our choices according to our desires, according to the clarify of our understanding and ability to evaluate.
Since we are sinners by nature and with many of scriptures that I pointed to you that natively we do not seek God, we always choose darkness and sin. Because the unregenerate's understanding is still sits under the veil of sin do we make the choices that is most likely to fit how we understand things.
The choices are there and are many times even explained. Not just understood and made correctly. We choose as natural men not to obey God. But we definitely made that choice.
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This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:29:28 PM
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Chief
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quote:
with rare exception such as Jonah and Baalam And even with this exception that God "forcing" these men to do God's bidding would you say NIC that it was still unbecoming of God to do so?
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This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:31:42 PM
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Chief
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quote:
God does the saving.. after we trust in Christ.. after we hear the gospel.. and after we believe.. I do not think anybody here disagrees. Unbelievers remain unsaved because they do not listen to the gospel, they do not trust in Christ and they do not believe in Him.
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This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:33:11 PM
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NewinChrist
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Chief
quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
quote:
ORIGINAL: Chief
Clarify for me real quick what you meant by God allowing certain individual to believe and not others.
Well let's see Chief.. in a PM you were just telling me how that the only choice you had was to sin.. so why do I think you already know exactly what you're asking here.. why don't you tell us..
Just to clarify that, again. Since no one here really knew what the PM really contained.
I said that in God's eyes we only have one choice. To obey and follow Christ. If sin was viable choice he would have let us do so freely without consequence. Sins sin will lead to death and destruction, if that was a choice it would have been a very very bad one.
But since I had to clarify more about my position I took the assumption that it can still be a choice even the Lord hates for us to take it. So, I said you had two choices. To sin or to obey.
We choose indeed. And I did not contend against our freedom to make choices and evaluate and decide. We evaluate our choices according to our desires, according to the clarify of our understanding and ability to evaluate.
Since we are sinners by nature and with many of scriptures that I pointed to you that natively we do not seek God, we always choose darkness and sin. Because the unregenerate's understanding is still sits under the veil of sin do we make the choices that is most likely to fit how we understand things.
The choices are there and are many times even explained. Not just understood and made correctly. We choose as natural men not to obey God. But we definitely made that choice.
So, are you suggesting that the GOSPEL has no power to move the hearts and minds of men to call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in order that they can be saved..?
IOW.. I'd completely agree that all men are sinners and would have no hope without the love and grace of God given to us through His beloved Son.. and the gospel of God is the power of salvation to every one that believes.. for whosoever calls upon the name of the Lord shall be saved..
So why does calvinism neglect the fact that we HAVE the gospel.. it's as if you don't even acknowledge that it's there..?
AND..we have the GOSPEL preached with the HOLY GHOST sent down from heaven.. and it convinces of sin, of righteousness and of judgment..
Why don't you mention the GOSPEL... ?
Did you FORGET about the GOSPEL Chief..?
Just wondering..
< Message edited by NewinChrist -- 7/7/2005 2:40:29 PM >
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:38:25 PM
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NewinChrist
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
quote:
Yes or no.. according to calvinism..Must God allow a person to BELIEVE ?
Yes. Not only that, he recreates them so that they willingly believe.
According to the Bible, God saves people.
I agree that GOD saves people..
What I do not agree with is that He recreates them so that they willingly believe.. they willingly believe because of the love and grace of God given to them through His beloved Son as revealed through the gospel of God.. and they trust in Him for the forgiveness of their sin..
It's the ol cart before the horse scenario..
Again.. either the King has won the loyalty and affections of His people or He decided it all for them..
Which is more sovereign in your estimation.. ?
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:39:31 PM
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NewinChrist
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
quote:
are you suggesting that the GOSPEL has no power to move the hearts and minds of men to call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in order that they can be saved..?
It has the power to move the hearts and minds of men who are willing.
You mean, like men have free will or something..?
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:40:09 PM
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turretinfan
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From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
We might be understanding the word "potential" differently.
I agree that without a fallible moral agent in existence, that it is impossible for sin to occur. (Thus, I said that God "doesn't shove the boulder off the mountain himself").
However, consider this:
Set your mind "before the creation"-- in the eternity prior to when God said "let there be light". In that eternity, there was only God in existence.
Now... let's take one single concept for illustration: Truth. God stands for Truth, God upholds Truth, God is Truth.
Ok... Because God is who God is-- Truth, in this example-- there must exist the CONCEPT of "False", or "Lie".
There indeed is no being to think, believe, or conduct a falsity/lie. Therefore, it is impossible for a falisty/lie to ACTUALLY exist.
Nevertheless, the hypothetical CONCEPT of Lie/False exists because God exists... it "potentially exists".... or, "potentially could exist".
(Caps not shouting.. .just too lazy to format)
Probably you hit the nail on the head as far as the question being about the use of the word "potential."
Assume that Morality is a reflection of God's character. Consider the Immorality is definitionally the opposite of Morality. Consider that God's character is unchangeable. Therefore Immorality has been defined from all eternity, and in a sense is defined because of God.
To the extent that the moral law has existed from all eternity, the definition of sin has existed from all eternity. It is not really fair to call the impossible "potential" in my mind, but perhaps it is just because of how I in my quirky way think about potential.
-Turretinfan
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:41:42 PM
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turretinfan
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From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: TheoJunkie
quote:
It's clear to me from scripture that God predetermined to have a church although I do not see it in the individualistic way in which calvinists see it..
How is it possible to predetermine the existence of a group of people (i.e., the Church), and leave it to chance whether that group will exist?
How can you have a group with no members?
That's an interesting question - and it is really the mirror of the question Dan (Godismyjudge) asked (I hope he's still lurking about to read everyone's answers).
-Turretinfan
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:43:01 PM
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turretinfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
Note that this view mandates free will apart from God's will..
I'm very curious which view mandates that?
-Turretinfan
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:44:43 PM
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turretinfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
Yes or no.. according to calvinism..Must God allow a person to BELIEVE ?
If you reword it as follows:
God must cause a person to believe,
then Calvinists would agree with it.
-Turretinfan
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:47:25 PM
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NewinChrist
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maybe a CROSS witness or something like that..
I know.. that's bad..
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:49:02 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
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NIC: We have always mentioned the gospel and we have also biblically shown how God opens the heart to understand and believe the gospel. Scripture interprets scripture NIC, that is also what I believe as I repeat this often enough. To the unregenerate man the Bible says that the gospel is foolishness. To the regenerate man the gospel is good news and he accepts that good news to the Glory of God.
Again I point you to the conversion of Paul, where in that passage or in Paul's testimony was he ever seeking or was he ever willingly accepting? God pretty much knocked him on his kiester did he not? I don't know about you but that would get my attention.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:49:09 PM
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turretinfan
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From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
I agree completely bygrace.. although foreknowledge doesn't mean that I didn't have a choice.. it simply means that He foreknew the people who would be ****ed in their hearts so to speak and call upon Him for their salvation.. He didn't force it to happen, He knew it would happen..
Calvinism doesn't say people don't have a choice, or don't make a choice. That's really a red herring.
Here's the thing, if God knows what is going to happen, it is certain to happen that way, and no other way is possible. Thus, since God knew you would believe, it was impossible for you not to believe, because not believing would have made God wrong.
-Turretinfan
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:50:31 PM
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turretinfan
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
God knows the end from the beginning, and He has told us the end from the beginning in His word.. the NT book of Revelation tells us the end of all things to come.. this doesn't mandate that He is forcing all things to happen.. He's simply telling us what IS going to happen..
This isn't that difficult is it..? I mean, do most people automatically associate foreknowlede with determining things that happen..?
Let's try an example...
If I KNOW that drinking and driving leads to an eventual accident.. does that mandate that I MADE the accident happen.. ?
Of course NOT.. foreknowledge doesn't mandate events..it simply knows that events will occur... yeah...ney..?
The kind of knowledge you describe is a statistical knowledge ... not a certain knowledge. There is nothing that you know certainly.
-Turretinfan
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:50:55 PM
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Chief
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quote:
Did you FORGET about the GOSPEL Chief..? I must have forgotten. Thanks for reminding me. What do you think the Gospel is? Do you believe it is the word of God? I bet you do. And since it is the Word of God do you think it is spiritual? Why do unbelievers not believe it?
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:53:28 PM
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NewinChrist
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
I agree completely bygrace.. although foreknowledge doesn't mean that I didn't have a choice.. it simply means that He foreknew the people who would be ****ed in their hearts so to speak and call upon Him for their salvation.. He didn't force it to happen, He knew it would happen..
Calvinism doesn't say people don't have a choice, or don't make a choice. That's really a red herring.
Here's the thing, if God knows what is going to happen, it is certain to happen that way, and no other way is possible. Thus, since God knew you would believe, it was impossible for you not to believe, because not believing would have made God wrong.
-Turretinfan
So here you're mandating that God's foreknowledge forces the events to take place..rather than it simply foretelling them.. this then makes God the autor of all of the evil that's in the world.. He foretold it was going to happen.. so according to you.. He is making it happen..
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:54:27 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1751
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quote:
If I KNOW that drinking and driving leads to an eventual accident.. does that mandate that I MADE the accident happen.. ?
We are not God. You keep giving human examples and we are limited we are not God. God can cause something to happen for his divine purposes, but more often he simply does nothing. He does not intervene either way and let's a person go their own way. IOW he ordains it to happen. Do you think he does not know what will and will not happen?
He knows us better than we do and he knows the best way to bring those he would bring to himself. He knows how to bring sin to the surface of the believer even after salvation. When we think we are pretty perfect, he allows and sometimes creates circumstances that shows us where we are spiritually. He is God NIC. He doesn't hide his attributes. He can't.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:55:56 PM
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NewinChrist
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Chief
quote:
Did you FORGET about the GOSPEL Chief..? I must have forgotten. Thanks for reminding me. What do you think the Gospel is? Do you believe it is the word of God? I bet you do. And since it is the Word of God do you think it is spiritual? Why do unbelievers not believe it?
1Co 2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
1Co 2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
OK, so the gospel is only for those who He has already allowed to believe... ?
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.. 
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:56:05 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1751
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quote:
He foretold it was going to happen.. so according to you.. He is making it happen..
Think about this NIC. We are speaking of God almighty here who created the heavens and the earth. Who by grace is giving you every breath you take, every beat of your heart........think NIC who God is and what he is capable of doing or not doing............
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 2:56:23 PM
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turretinfan
Posts: 5608
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From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jazzact13
A man builds a robot. He programs this robot to kill someone. The robot does it's job and kills this person. The man and the robot are taken into custody. At the trial, the man defends himself by saying that while, yes, he did program the robot to do the deed, he is not guilty, but that while the robot was programed to kill and had no say in the matter, it is actually the robot that is guilty of murder.
It's a poor analogy. We and the robot are both created beings. We have the power to create a robot that will clean the house for forty years and at the end be recycled, although it did its job without error. We are guilty of murder because we do not have a right to kill our fellow men - including by the instrumentality of a robot - or a dog.
But it has nothing to do with free will.
God is not a man, and he is permitted to ordain that sin will occur. We are not permitted to do so, because we are not God, we are the creation.
-Turretinfan
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