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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 7:07:14 PM
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NewinChrist
Posts: 89
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quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
So again.. the King has either won the hearts and affections of His people or He has decided that all for them..
Or both, as in Calvinism, no?
-Turretinfan
You folks have said that He must allow a person to believe.. so how could they have had anything to do with it apart from His allowing it to happen..?
Seriously.. why do you say one thing and then suggest that the other is also applicable..?
Either they have the free will to choose Christ or they do not..
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 7:21:52 PM
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turretinfan
Posts: 5595
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
What is more sovereign in your estimation..
A king who wins the hearts and minds of his subjects by his love and grace which goes beyond what they could have ever asked for our thought of.. while preserving their free will at the same time..
OR..
A king who determines all those that will love him and his subjects have absolutely no connection as to why they're chosen to be his..
Seriously folks..
Indeed!
Which makes him supreme, and which gives supremacy to man?
(from Webster's 1828)
quote:
SOVEREIGN, a. suv'eran. [We retain this babarous orthography from the Norman sovereign. The true spelling would be suveran from the L. supernes, superus.]
1. Supreme in power; possessing supreme dominion; as a sovereign ruler of the universe.
2. Supreme; superior to all others; chief. God is the sovereign good of all who love and obey him.
3. Supremely efficacious; superior to all others; predominant; effectual; as a sovereign remedy.
4. Supreme; pertaining to the first magistrate of a nation; as sovereign authority.
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 7:24:30 PM
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turretinfan
Posts: 5595
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
What is more sovereign in your estimation..
A king who wins the hearts and minds of his subjects by his love and grace which goes beyond what they could have ever asked for our thought of.. while preserving their free will at the same time..
OR..
A king who determines all those that will love him and his subjects have absolutely no connection as to why they're chosen to be his..
Seriously folks..
If one had to pick ... well consider which makes God supreme and which makes man supreme.
quote:
SOVEREIGN, a. suv'eran. [We retain this babarous orthography from the Norman sovereign. The true spelling would be suveran from the L. supernes, superus.]
1. Supreme in power; possessing supreme dominion; as a sovereign ruler of the universe.
2. Supreme; superior to all others; chief. God is the sovereign good of all who love and obey him.
3. Supremely efficacious; superior to all others; predominant; effectual; as a sovereign remedy.
4. Supreme; pertaining to the first magistrate of a nation; as sovereign authority.
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 7:25:35 PM
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turretinfan
Posts: 5595
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
quote:
ORIGINAL: turretinfan
quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
So again.. the King has either won the hearts and affections of His people or He has decided that all for them..
Or both, as in Calvinism, no?
-Turretinfan
You folks have said that He must allow a person to believe.. so how could they have had anything to do with it apart from His allowing it to happen..?
Seriously.. why do you say one thing and then suggest that the other is also applicable..?
Either they have the free will to choose Christ or they do not..
Why he can't determine that he will win their heart by the effacious application of irresistable grace via the Holy Spirit.
-Turretinfan
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 7:26:29 PM
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Chief
Posts: 104
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NIC,
quote:
Chief..
I've mentioned the bottom line before.. from the beginning.. why do you act surprised or something.. ? Do you not understand the fundamental difference in views here.. ? Tell me the post number so I can read this Peter Pan deal.
quote:
It's simple isn't it.. ? That's what I say, too.
quote:
Your view is that God allowed you to believe.. (and so He either allows individuals to believe or He does not) That was your statement, too. Post 74
quote:
I believe that I trusted in Him after I heard the word of truth.. ie.. the GOSPEL.. Really? So does that mean the you already knew Him before you heard the Gospel?
quote:
and that after I believed.. He sealed me with the spirit of promise.. (which is how I see all of His people.. they were motivated and and turned to God because of the power and love of His gospel..) Okay.
quote:
So again.. the King has either won the hearts and affections of His people or He has decided that all for them..
The imagery of a King is power, conquest, dominion and sovereignty. God as the King wages war for our affections entering the very soul with the sword to conquer the heart and free the captives.
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This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 7:29:26 PM
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Chief
Posts: 104
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
What is more sovereign in your estimation..
A king who wins the hearts and minds of his subjects by his love and grace which goes beyond what they could have ever asked for our thought of.. while preserving their free will at the same time..
OR..
A king who determines all those that will love him and his subjects have absolutely no connection as to why they're chosen to be his..
Seriously folks..
Both.
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 8:38:55 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1748
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
What is more sovereign in your estimation..
A king who wins the hearts and minds of his subjects by his love and grace which goes beyond what they could have ever asked for our thought of.. while preserving their free will at the same time..
OR..
A king who determines all those that will love him and his subjects have absolutely no connection as to why they're chosen to be his..
Seriously folks..
I agree with Turretin, both.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 8:56:32 PM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1748
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Have either NIC or holdon ever prayed something like "Lord change so and so's heart to want to become a Christian?" Honest answers please.
"To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect."
- John Owen
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 8:56:47 PM
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EddieL
Posts: 522
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Rustburg, Virginia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
quote:
ORIGINAL: EddieL
quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
So, are you suggesting that the GOSPEL has no power to move the hearts and minds of men to call upon the Lord Jesus Christ in order that they can be saved..?
The gospel belongs to God. It is His chosen means to bring people to Himself. It is immensely powerful, as it moves the hearts of minds of men to call upon Christ all the time.
Well, come on now Eddie.. you're forgetting the part about how it only moves the hearts and minds of those whom He allows to believe its message.. riiiiiggggghhhhhhtttttt ?
The gospel moves the hearts and minds of those God frees to believe its message. How could any heart be moved to love were it not for the Spirit of God?
Sometimes it seems that free-will theism is so worried about making God responsible for evil that they forget that God is the ONLY source of good. How could any heart be moved towards Christ without the moral ability and influence of the Spirit? Is a choice for Christ a mechanical thing, or is it indeed a moral act? If it's mechanical... it's heartless. If it's moral, it requires the Spirit's power to be made.
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/7/2005 8:59:01 PM
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EddieL
Posts: 522
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Rustburg, Virginia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
Either they have the free will to choose Christ or they do not..
No. Either they want to chose Christ or they don't.
Apart from the saving grace of God, nobody even wants to choose Christ. This is the moral state that we need to be saved from. It is from this state of worthlessness that the blood of Christ redeems us. Because of Christ's work on the cross, the elect want to be saved.
< Message edited by EddieL -- 7/7/2005 9:40:30 PM >
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puppets - 7/7/2005 9:40:01 PM
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swordsman
Posts: 56
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EddieL
quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
Either they have the free will to choose Christ or they do not..
No. Either they want to chose Christ or they don't.
Apart from the saving grace of God, nobody chooses Christ. This is the moral state that we need to be saved from. It is from this state of worthlessness that the blood of Christ redeems us. Because of Christ's work on the cross, the elect want to be saved.
sw: I think the Bible teaches that Jesus died for our sins, not for a moral state of worthlessness.
The elect want to be saved because God pulls the strings on puppets. It's a display and love akin to all of Saddam's birthday bashes put on by the Iraqi people because they didn't have any choice.
Swordsman
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RE: puppets - 7/7/2005 9:45:06 PM
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EddieL
Posts: 522
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Rustburg, Virginia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: swordsman
I think the Bible teaches that Jesus died for our sins, not for a moral state of worthlessness.
To be enslaved by sin is to be in a state of moral worthlessness. We must be saved from who we are, not just from what we've done.
quote:
The elect want to be saved because God pulls the strings on puppets. It's a display and love akin to all of Saddam's birthday bashes put on by the Iraqi people because they didn't have any choice.
Really? If God's Spirit "pulls my string", I'm not faking my affections for Him. I love Him truly, because His Spirit loves through me.
In a way, I think that free-will theism puts man into the Saddam Birthday Bash. Everyone must conjure up love for Him or He will kill them.
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2005 7:26:01 AM
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NewinChrist
Posts: 89
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EddieL
The gospel moves the hearts and minds of those God frees to believe its message. How could any heart be moved to love were it not for the Spirit of God?
How could any heart be moved towards Christ without the moral ability and influence of the Spirit? Is a choice for Christ a mechanical thing, or is it indeed a moral act? If it's mechanical... it's heartless. If it's moral, it requires the Spirit's power to be made.
Eddie et al,
You folks obviously listen to nothing that we have said in these threads... HOW MANY TIMES would you like us to say that the GOSPEL is preached WITH the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven.. ?
Seriously.. these comments of yours imply that we're saying that man can choose God without the Spirit..
Even Christ's words are SPIRIT and they are LIFE.. and Peter teaches us that the GOSPEL is preached WITH the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven..
So please... why are you folks not listening..? WHO EVER SAID THAT THE SPIRIT OF GOD IS NOT INVOLVED ?
AND... let me add AGAIN the scriptural teaching which warns of a much sorer punishment to him who has trodden under foot the Son of God and hath counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite the Spirit of grace..
Did you get that... done despite the SPIRIT OF GRACE... ? ?
Just making sure.. seeing that you folks are either not listening or just plain refusing to listen..
No more questions your honor... (well.. maybe a few more..AGAIN..)
No wonder nobody laughed at my Peter Pan comments.. 
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2005 7:46:32 AM
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NewinChrist
Posts: 89
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EddieL
quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
Either they have the free will to choose Christ or they do not..
No. Either they want to chose Christ or they don't.
Apart from the saving grace of God, nobody even wants to choose Christ. This is the moral state that we need to be saved from. It is from this state of worthlessness that the blood of Christ redeems us. Because of Christ's work on the cross, the elect want to be saved.
So what about the GOSPEL ?
We're told in the GOSPEL that the Law was given by Moses.. but GRACE and TRUTH came by Jesus Christ..
The Lord Himself tells us that His words are SPIRIT and that they are LIFE...
So what are you saying Ed.. ? Are you saying that the GOSPEL of GRACE (which is preached WITH the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven) is just not enough... is that it..?
ALSO... what about those that trodden under foot the Son of God and do this DESPITE the SPIRIT OF GRACE..?
Was it just not enough Spirit of grace ?
How about the scriptures which say that some will REJECT the love of the TRUTH that they might be SAVED...? ? ?
Was there not enough TRUTH there for them to be set free and turn to Christ and be saved..?
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RE: puppets - 7/8/2005 7:58:28 AM
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NewinChrist
Posts: 89
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EddieL
Really? If God's Spirit "pulls my string", I'm not faking my affections for Him. I love Him truly, because His Spirit loves through me.
Just thought I'd highlight this one more time..
Who ever suggested that the SPIRIT OF GOD is not involved...?
We're taught in the scriptures that the SPIRIT will convict of sin of righteousness and of judgment..
We're taught in the scriptures that the GOSPEL is preached with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven...
We're taught in the scriptures that some will turn away from the gospel and count the blood of the covenant wherewith they were sanctified as an unholy thing.. DESPITE the SPIRIT of GRACE...
We're taught in the scriptures that some will RESIST the Spirit of God..as the Pharisees did which is recorded in Acts..
We're taught in the scriptures that some will reject the love of the truth that they might be saved...
We're taught in the scriptures that we trusted in Christ AFTER we heard the word of truth, the GOSPEL of our salvation and that AFTER we believed it, we were then SEALED with the SPIRIT of promise...HOWEVER... this does not imply that the Spirit was not at work in convicting us of our sin, of His righteousness, and of judgment BEFORE we were sealed by God..
The scriptures are clear in teaching us that some DO resist the SPIRIT OF GRACE..
< Message edited by NewinChrist -- 7/8/2005 8:05:01 AM >
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RE: puppets - 7/8/2005 8:28:14 AM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1748
Status: offline
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quote:
sins
From Eastmans dictionary:
Original sin. "Our first parents being the root of all
mankind, the guilt of their sin was imputed, and the same death
in sin and corrupted nature were conveyed to all their
posterity, descending from them by ordinary generation." Adam
was constituted by God the federal head and representative of
all his posterity, as he was also their natural head, and
therefore when he fell they fell with him (Rom. 5:12-21; 1 Cor.
15:22-45). His probation was their probation, and his fall their
fall. Because of Adam's first sin all his posterity came into
the world in a state of sin and condemnation, i.e., (1) a state
of moral corruption, and (2) of guilt, as having judicially
imputed to them the guilt of Adam's first sin.
"Original sin" is frequently and properly used to denote only
the moral corruption of their whole nature inherited by all men
from Adam. This inherited moral corruption consists in, (1) the
loss of original righteousness; and (2) the presence of a
constant proneness to evil, which is the root and origin of all
actual sin. It is called "sin" (Rom. 6:12, 14, 17; 7:5-17), the
"flesh" (Gal. 5:17, 24), "lust" (James 1:14, 15), the "body of
sin" (Rom. 6:6), "ignorance," "blindness of heart," "alienation
from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18, 19). It influences and
depraves the whole man, and its tendency is still downward to
deeper and deeper corruption, there remaining no recuperative
element in the soul. It is a total depravity, and it is also
universally inherited by all the natural descendants of Adam
(Rom. 3:10-23; 5:12-21; 8:7). Pelagians deny original sin, and
regard man as by nature morally and spiritually well;
semi-Pelagians regard him as morally sick; Augustinians, or, as
they are also called, Calvinists, regard man as described above,
spiritually dead (Eph. 2:1; 1 John 3:14).
The doctrine of original sin is proved, (1.) From the fact of
the universal sinfulness of men. "There is no man that sinneth
not" (1 Kings 8:46; Isa. 53:6; Ps. 130:3; Rom. 3:19, 22, 23;
Gal. 3:22). (2.) From the total depravity of man. All men are
declared to be destitute of any principle of spiritual life;
man's apostasy from God is total and complete (Job 15:14-16;
Gen. 6:5,6). (3.) From its early manifestation (Ps. 58:3; Prov.
22:15). (4.) It is proved also from the necessity, absolutely
and universally, of regeneration (John 3:3; 2 Cor. 5:17). (5.)
From the universality of death (Rom. 5:12-20).
This is why Christ came and died on the cross. Romans 5:12-20
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: puppets - 7/8/2005 8:29:19 AM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1748
Status: offline
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quote:
The scriptures are clear in teaching us that some DO resist the SPIRIT OF GRACE..
I agree. Some do........for awhile......
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: puppets - 7/8/2005 8:31:48 AM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1748
Status: offline
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Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour.
— Titus 3. 5, 6. refers to internal and what process happens during salvation.
"My Spirit shall not always strive with man," (Gen. 6:3) and "ye do always resist the Holy Spirit." (Acts 7:51) These verses refer to the external working of the HS not the internal .
Phil. 1:6: "He which hath begun a good work in you will finish it."Psa. 138:8: "The Lord will perfect that which concerneth me. refers to the internal.
< Message edited by bygraceiamsaved -- 7/8/2005 8:35:48 AM >
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: puppets - 7/8/2005 8:37:20 AM
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NewinChrist
Posts: 89
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved
quote:
The scriptures are clear in teaching us that some DO resist the SPIRIT OF GRACE..
I agree. Some do........for awhile......
Oh.. so everyone in the scriptures who resisted the SPIRIT eventually came to Christ..
Is that correct..?
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RE: puppets - 7/8/2005 8:38:06 AM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1748
Status: offline
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Yep. Eventually.
"Blessed is the man whom Thou choosest, and causeth to approach unto Thee, that he may dwell in Thy courts" (Psa. 65:4)."
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: puppets - 7/8/2005 8:40:40 AM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1748
Status: offline
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"If the sinner can get over that without the Spirit, he can easily get over the rest. If he does not need the Spirit to enable him to believe, he will not need Him to enable him to love." (H. Bonar) speaking of those who believe the man takes the first step and God does the rest.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: puppets - 7/8/2005 8:44:13 AM
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NewinChrist
Posts: 89
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved
Yep. Eventually.
"Blessed is the man whom Thou choosest, and causeth to approach unto Thee, that he may dwell in Thy courts" (Psa. 65:4)."
So what about the Hebrews scriptures which teach of the sorer punishment for him who hath trodden under foot the Son of God and counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace..
What's the deal here...?
Was there not enough SPIRIT of grace here.. ?
It says that he was sanctified by the blood of Christ.. so what happened...?
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RE: puppets - 7/8/2005 8:47:22 AM
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NewinChrist
Posts: 89
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved
"If the sinner can get over that without the Spirit, he can easily get over the rest. If he does not need the Spirit to enable him to believe, he will not need Him to enable him to love." (H. Bonar) speaking of those who believe the man takes the first step and God does the rest.
man takes the first step...?
Again, you're obviously not listening bygrace..
Was the GOSPEL preached with the HOLY GHOST our first step.. OR was it God's first step.. ?
It's amazing to me that you folks keep saying things like this.. seriously.. "man taking the first step"
Show me where anybody has said anything remotely close to that..
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2005 8:51:22 AM
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Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 7550
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quote:
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RE: puppets - 7/8/2005 8:54:34 AM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1748
Status: offline
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Tell me the steps that a person goes through in order to be saved NIC beginning with hearing the gospel. Break down what you mean by "So what about the Hebrews scriptures which teach of the sorer punishment for him who hath trodden under foot the Son of God and counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace..
What's the deal here...?"
Can you give the scripture passage that you are speaking of?
Also tell me what you mean by "Preaching the gospel with the HS"
Those that spoke were filled with the HS and the HS was speaking through them, that doesn't mean that the whole audience was full of the HS or that the HS inwardly regenerated the whole audience.
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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