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RE: puppets - 7/8/2005 9:12:19 AM
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NewinChrist
Posts: 89
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved
Tell me the steps that a person goes through in order to be saved NIC beginning with hearing the gospel.
How about Ephesians 1:13 where Paul teaches it..
In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of His glory.
quote:
Break down what you mean by "So what about the Hebrews scriptures which teach of the sorer punishment for him who hath trodden under foot the Son of God and counted the blood of the covenant wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace..
What's the deal here...?"
You just commented how that those who resist the Spirit will eventually come to Christ... so I asked..what about the Hebrew verses which I just showed to you where it says that they were sanctified by His blood and yet would reject Him and count His blood as an unholy thing.. DESPITE the Spirit of GRACE...
quote:
Can you give the scripture passage that you are speaking of?
Sure.. it's in Hebrews 10..
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?[/
quote:
Also tell me what you mean by "Preaching the gospel with the HS"
Those that spoke were filled with the HS and the HS was speaking through them, that doesn't mean that the whole audience was full of the HS or that the HS inwardly regenerated the whole audience.
Come on bygrace.. this is fundamental stuff.. the Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin, of righteousness, and of judgment.. the LORD Himself tells us that His words are Spirit and they are life.. don't you know that when you preach the gospel to somebody that the words are words of life.. Paul tells this to us in Philippians.. that we should shine as lights in the world, holding forth the word of life...
Would you suggest that the gospel of God is some static and lifeless bunch of words without any power toward the sinner.. I would certainly hope not.. although I'll wait for your comments just to be sure.. 
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2005 9:20:59 AM
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EddieL
Posts: 522
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Rustburg, Virginia
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
First of all, NIC, breathe in and breathe out. This is just an Internet forum, and the world does not hang in the balance of what is posted here. Your tone always sounds a bit angry and freaked out. If I'm misreading you, I apologize.
quote:
quote:
ORIGINAL: EddieL
The gospel moves the hearts and minds of those God frees to believe its message. How could any heart be moved to love were it not for the Spirit of God?
How could any heart be moved towards Christ without the moral ability and influence of the Spirit? Is a choice for Christ a mechanical thing, or is it indeed a moral act? If it's mechanical... it's heartless. If it's moral, it requires the Spirit's power to be made.
You folks obviously listen to nothing that we have said in these threads... HOW MANY TIMES would you like us to say that the GOSPEL is preached WITH the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven.. ?
Seriously.. these comments of yours imply that we're saying that man can choose God without the Spirit..
You are saying that the Spirit is not enough, though. There has to be something in a man that is only of the man that brings him to cooperate with the Spirit. If the Spirit is given to every man, but only some men believe, then people are doing SOMETHING without the Spirit, right?
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RE: puppets - 7/8/2005 9:21:30 AM
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NewinChrist
Posts: 89
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved
"If the sinner can get over that without the Spirit, he can easily get over the rest. If he does not need the Spirit to enable him to believe, he will not need Him to enable him to love." (H. Bonar) speaking of those who believe the man takes the first step and God does the rest.
bygrace,
Can you show a post where anybody said that they took the first step toward salvation..?
Thanks
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2005 9:24:48 AM
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NewinChrist
Posts: 89
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EddieL
First of all, NIC, breathe in and breathe out. This is just an Internet forum, and the world does not hang in the balance of what is posted here. Your tone always sounds a bit angry and freaked out. If I'm misreading you, I apologize.
apology accepted
quote:
ORIGINAL: EddieL
The gospel moves the hearts and minds of those God frees to believe its message. How could any heart be moved to love were it not for the Spirit of God?
How could any heart be moved towards Christ without the moral ability and influence of the Spirit? Is a choice for Christ a mechanical thing, or is it indeed a moral act? If it's mechanical... it's heartless. If it's moral, it requires the Spirit's power to be made.
quote:
You folks obviously listen to nothing that we have said in these threads... HOW MANY TIMES would you like us to say that the GOSPEL is preached WITH the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven.. ?
Seriously.. these comments of yours imply that we're saying that man can choose God without the Spirit..
quote:
You are saying that the Spirit is not enough, though. There has to be something in a man that is only of the man that brings him to cooperate with the Spirit. If the Spirit is given to every man, but only some men believe, then people are doing SOMETHING without the Spirit, right?
You're the one suggesting that the SPIRIT is not enough.. not me.
I don't understand your logic here.. the scriptures tell us that some resist the SPIRIT... so obviously some don't.. some actually believe the GOSPEL..
Again.. your logic here is very strange.. don't you acknowledge the scriptures which speak of resisting the SPIRIT..?
< Message edited by NewinChrist -- 7/8/2005 10:41:44 AM >
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2005 11:13:36 AM
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the_winding_road
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I read this passage last night and after some reflection considered this debate. First here is the passage from Acts 17
22Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.
24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'
This says to me that God makes himself available to all men, whether they know of him or not...as evidenced by the altar to the unknown God. Now how these people came to Christ was that they were prepared and they did hear the Gospel; delivered through men by the Holy Spirit. Now in verse 27 it seems that God places each person in position to seek God out and perhaps find him. To me, the word "perhaps" precludes the word predestination, so I went to the CRTA website (http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/) and found this:
Unconditional Election
Unconditional Election is the doctrine which states that God chose those whom he was pleased to bring to a knowledge of himself, not based upon any merit shown by the object of his grace and not based upon his looking forward to discover who would "accept" the offer of the gospel. God has elected, based solely upon the counsel of his own will, some for glory and others for damnation (Romans 9:15,21). He has done this act before the foundations of the world (Ephesians 1:4-8).
This doctrine does not rule out, however, man's responsibility to believe in the redeeming work of God the Son (John 3:16-18). Scripture presents a tension between God's sovereignty in salvation, and man's responsibility to believe which it does not try to resolve. Both are true -- to deny man's responsibility is to affirm an unbiblical hyper-calvinism; to deny God's sovereignty is to affirm an unbiblical Arminianism.
The elect are saved unto good works (Ephesians 2:10). Thus, though good works will never bridge the gulf between man and God that was formed in the Fall, good works are a result of God's saving grace. This is what Peter means when he admonishes the Christian reader to make his "calling" and "election" sure (2 Peter 1:10). Bearing the fruit of good works is an indication that God has sown seeds of grace in fertile soil.
And according to that site, outside of unbiblical hyper-Calvinism, man does have a choice in the matter. So how then does God "elect" someone if they have responsibility or free will in the matter and can choose to not accept God? If God does not base this decision on foreknowledge, how is his plan, his design altered to account for a person's decision that doesn't quite fit it? And yet, there are referenced verses of scripture (to our eyes anyways) which appear to fully support the idea that God decided before all who and who would not be saved.
OK, so I read Romans 9:15-21 and a little before as well, here it is:
10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[d] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[e]
14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[f] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[g] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[h] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?
Again here is poor Pharaoh, one of God's great whipping boys as it were, to me the very example of predestination. Perhaps God has not predetermined exactly who will be saved but maybe only who definitely won't be saved. Perhaps, especially in the OT many had hardened hearts so that the entire world itself, Jew and Gentile, can be prepared for the Son, to accept Christ as salvation and that once He died on the cross for mankind that mankind (generally speaking) is free from predestination unless it serves God's purpose to place the damned in our midst to serve His purpose.
< Message edited by the_winding_road -- 7/8/2005 11:19:49 AM >
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2005 11:23:37 AM
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bygraceiamsaved
Posts: 1748
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quote:
http://www.reformed.org/calvinism/)
Total Depravity (Total Inability)
Total Depravity is probably the most misunderstood tenet of Calvinism. When Calvinists speak of humans as "totally depraved," they are making an extensive, rather than an intensive statement. The effect of the fall upon man is that sin has extended to every part of his personality -- his thinking, his emotions, and his will. Not necessarily that he is intensely sinful, but that sin has extended to his entire being.
The unregenerate (unsaved) man is dead in his sins (Romans 5:12). Without the power of the Holy Spirit, the natural man is blind and deaf to the message of the gospel (Mark 4:11f). This is why Total Depravity has also been called "Total Inability." The man without a knowledge of God will never come to this knowledge without God's making him alive through Christ (Ephesians 2:1-5).
_____________________________
"Man is never sufficiently touched and affected by the awareness of his lowly state until he has compared himself with God's majesty"---John Calvin
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2005 11:42:00 AM
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NewinChrist
Posts: 89
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bygraceiamsaved
Well, if that's going to be your response to my answering your questions.. then so be it..
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2005 12:28:07 PM
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TheoJunkie
Posts: 2334
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life
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Though I realize this isn't going to be news to anyone, I hope it will.
The antiChrist elements in "conversations" (and debates) such as these are:
1) Asking leading questions that insert words into others mouths
2) Stating what others believe (when in fact it is merely what you believe the other doctrine results in).
3) Refusing to hear what the other is actually saying (evidenced by perpetually asking the same question over and over as if it has never been addressed).
4) Trying to "get people to admit" something.
5) Snide remarks intended only to inflame.
The Truth does not need such tactics to prevail. If indeed Calvinism (or Arminianism for that matter) is a lie from hell, such revelation will be borne out through rational conversation.
15But in your hearts set apart Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect, 16keeping a clear conscience, so that those who speak maliciously against your good behavior in Christ may be ashamed of their slander.
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2005 12:30:34 PM
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Chief
Posts: 104
Joined: 4/12/2005
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TWR:
quote:
I read this passage last night and after some reflection considered this debate. First here is the passage from Acts 17
22Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you.
24"The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by hands. 25And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything, because he himself gives all men life and breath and everything else. 26From one man he made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he determined the times set for them and the exact places where they should live. 27God did this so that men would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from each one of us. 28'For in him we live and move and have our being.' As some of your own poets have said, 'We are his offspring.'
This says to me that God makes himself available to all men, whether they know of him or not...as evidenced by the altar to the unknown God. Thanks for the verses.
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: puppets - 7/8/2005 12:34:54 PM
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Chief
Posts: 104
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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NIC,
quote:
Can you show a post where anybody said that they took the first step toward salvation..?
What do you believe? Who took the first step?
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2005 1:47:57 PM
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EddieL
Posts: 522
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Rustburg, Virginia
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: NewinChrist
quote:
ORIGINAL: EddieL
You are saying that the Spirit is not enough, though. There has to be something in a man that is only of the man that brings him to cooperate with the Spirit. If the Spirit is given to every man, but only some men believe, then people are doing SOMETHING without the Spirit, right?
You're the one suggesting that the SPIRIT is not enough.. not me.
Ok... IF the Spirit is coming to every single person with the intent to bring them to Christ, then if only some of those He comes to with that intent comes to Christ, something else is needed in a man to bring them to make the choice to come to Christ. There is a CAUSE to a man's choice to come to Christ that is not the Spirit. This is the side-effect of trying to defend God from determinism. You're left with this thing in man that chooses the good when the good is not chosen by others. That is a boastworthy quality that is worthy of honor and glory... if it truly exists. Some people have a quality of the heart that causes them to choose Christ (or cooperate with the Spirit, or receive faith, etc.) and others do not. If that quality is God, then there is no boast for man. He's simply responding to the moral goodness of the Spirit. If that quality is of the man apart from God, man has retained a boast and is responsible for good in the universe apart from the righteousness of God.
Now I am not trying to tell you what you believe. I am telling you what the logical conclusion of your beliefs are from my pov.
quote:
I don't understand your logic here.. the scriptures tell us that some resist the SPIRIT... so obviously some don't.. some actually believe the GOSPEL..
Again.. your logic here is very strange.. don't you acknowledge the scriptures which speak of resisting the SPIRIT..?
So what? People resist the Spirit. But when it comes to the Spirit's intention to save, RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. YOU WILL BE ASSIMULATED.
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RE: puppets - 7/8/2005 1:53:28 PM
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turretinfan
Posts: 5487
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: swordsman
sw: I think the Bible teaches that Jesus died for our sins, not for a moral state of worthlessness.
The elect want to be saved because God pulls the strings on puppets. It's a display and love akin to all of Saddam's birthday bashes put on by the Iraqi people because they didn't have any choice.
Swordsman,
You are correct on the first sentence above.
Your comparison to Sadaam is ridiculous. It demonstrates a profound ignorance of the difference between determinism and autonomy.
-Turretinfan
_____________________________
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2005 2:02:18 PM
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turretinfan
Posts: 5487
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
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Bygrace and others,
I think that NIC and others are saying that
1) At first everybody is in bad shape.
2) Then God sends grace (to everybody or most people or lots of people, I'm not sure).
3) Then we believe (if we want, or we "resist grace" if we don't want to believe).
4) Then if we believe, God seals us with his Spirit.
So they think you are falsely accusing them by saying that man takes the first step in their theology.
-Turretinfan
_____________________________
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2005 3:17:55 PM
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NewinChrist
Posts: 89
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EddieL
Ok... IF the Spirit is coming to every single person with the intent to bring them to Christ, then if only some of those He comes to with that intent comes to Christ, something else is needed in a man to bring them to make the choice to come to Christ. There is a CAUSE to a man's choice to come to Christ that is not the Spirit. This is the side-effect of trying to defend God from determinism. You're left with this thing in man that chooses the good when the good is not chosen by others. That is a boastworthy quality that is worthy of honor and glory... if it truly exists. Some people have a quality of the heart that causes them to choose Christ (or cooperate with the Spirit, or receive faith, etc.) and others do not. If that quality is God, then there is no boast for man. He's simply responding to the moral goodness of the Spirit. If that quality is of the man apart from God, man has retained a boast and is responsible for good in the universe apart from the righteousness of God.
What you're essentially arguing here is that the GOSPEL OF GOD is not enough whereas the scriptures teach us that it is the POWER OF GOD (this is a lot of power) unto salvation to every one that believes..
When Paul was asked by the Philippian Jailor what he needed to do to be saved.. what did Paul tell him...? Did Paul tell him to wait for God to allow him to believe.. no.. he told him to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and he would be saved..
Paul tells the church in Rome that if they would confess with their mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in their heart that God has raised Him from the dead..that they would be saved..
The GOSPEL OF GOD is simple and POWERFUL and all God asks of us it to believe it, and when a person BELIEVES, it is accounted to them as righteousness.. even the righteousness of Christ..
This is the simplicity and power of the gospel of our Saviour and Lord Jesus Christ..
quote:
Now I am not trying to tell you what you believe. I am telling you what the logical conclusion of your beliefs are from my pov.
What you just told me in your pov is that the GOSPEL OF GOD doesn't cut it...
quote:
So what? People resist the Spirit. But when it comes to the Spirit's intention to save, RESISTANCE IS FUTILE. YOU WILL BE ASSIMULATED.
So what..? ? ?
So what that some people resist the Spirit of grace and trodden under foot the Son of God and count the blood of the covenant wherewith they were sanctified as an unholy thing... DESPITE that Spirit of grace..
So what that some will reject the love of the truth that they might be saved...?
This is your response.. so what...? and then you make an unscriptural statement which can not be supported by anything more than your emotions in saying that resistance is futile..people will be assimulated...
This is the GOSPEL OF CALVINISM.. people will be assimulated..
Show me those verses where those that reject His love and grace end up being saved... this is what bygrace mentioned also.. that they will eventually not resist the Spirit.. although that's not supported in scripture.. when I answered her comments I just got some faces... perhaps you'll have a little better response than that.. but we'll have to wait and see I guess..
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2005 3:26:59 PM
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NewinChrist
Posts: 89
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: EddieL
NIC, the gospel does not save a single person that does not believe it, and that's a fact of my view or yours. So the point of disagrement is not the power of the gospel, but the source of belief.
But those that resist will be assimulated..
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2005 3:38:28 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 7592
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: New Jersey
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ADMIN'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
This thread isn't about NIC.
Keep it on topic please.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
_____________________________
Fritz
Senior Manager of Social Media
fritz@salemwebnetwork.com
Want to see my latest online project? Check out http://christianfriend.com
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2005 3:38:57 PM
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NewinChrist
Posts: 89
Joined: 4/12/2005
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and you didn't even lol at my Peter Pan joke.. 
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2005 3:39:40 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 7592
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: New Jersey
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ADMIN'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
This thread will be locked for the weekend.
It will resume on Monday.
Please do not create new threads on the topic of Calvinism/Arminianism.
Users who do so will be found in violation of the Terms of Service for ignoring instruction.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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Fritz
Senior Manager of Social Media
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Want to see my latest online project? Check out http://christianfriend.com
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/8/2005 3:42:01 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
Posts: 7592
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: New Jersey
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Eddie and newinchrist,
I've deleted some of your posts.
Please do not make me repeat the effort.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
_____________________________
Fritz
Senior Manager of Social Media
fritz@salemwebnetwork.com
Want to see my latest online project? Check out http://christianfriend.com
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/11/2005 1:04:04 PM
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Chief
Posts: 104
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
What you just told me in your pov is that the GOSPEL OF GOD doesn't cut it... Please explain why you think this is so NIC.
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/11/2005 2:02:45 PM
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TheoJunkie
Posts: 2334
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life
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Just a note: the correct spelling is "assimilated".
And the correct phrase is "Resistance is history. You are assimilated."
And the correct response is "Thank God."
_____________________________
-John
God is God. Get used to it.
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RE: Calvinism - One Stop Thread - 7/11/2005 3:42:58 PM
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turretinfan
Posts: 5487
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Death to Life by the Power of the Spirit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Chief
quote:
What you just told me in your pov is that the GOSPEL OF GOD doesn't cut it... Please explain why you think this is so NIC.
The power of the Gospel is the power of the Spirit using it. Without the Spirit, the words of Scripture would be mere ink on paper, and that is all they are to too many. With the grace of the Spirit, the gospel is powerful.
-Turretinfan
_____________________________
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