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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2007 1:44:09 PM
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kljohnson77
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
quote:
ORIGINAL: pim
Sorry, I did not read this text good.
It concerns Genesis 38 : 9: Onan wasted his seed in relation with Tamar, his brother's wife, so that she could not get pregnant.
Genesis 38 : 10: This was a sin in God's Eyes: God let him die...
Masturbation is waste of seed too....
If you are a guy. Those who condemn M do so for women as well, and there is no seed being spilled there.
What displeased God, Onan's sin was that of defrauding his deceased brother and Tamar of proper offspring. Read the text more closely: 38.9 tells us what the sin was: But Onan knew that the offspring would not be his. but had sex with her anyway. He just wanted some intimate fun with a good looking woman but did not want his older brother to have an heir. That way his double portion of inheretance would fall to him and not a child.
IOW: he wanted all the sex and all the $$ he could get. It was not about spilling seed.
Good analysis, Dave (since I fully agree with you). I, too, fail to find a specific prohibition against M. In addition, to claim that just "spilling seed" in any way at all is sin would not allow premature withdrawal if a couple is attempting to use that method to prevent pregnancy (which some denoms view as a sin anyway). That would mean that sexual relations would be strictly limited to honest and earnest attempts to conceive a child and not to maintain full and complete intimacy between two people, such as senior citizens or those couples that find they are physically unable to have children. I believe both (to produce children and to provide are illustrations of the "one flesh" idea. Such relations are to be maintained only between a man and woman in recognized marital relationships.
If it is true that M is not specifically mentioned in Scriptures, I have to say that it belongs to one of the "gray areas" that become a matter of one's practice of faith. If one can do it and have faith that God permits it as a gray issue, then to him it is not sin. If you can't do that in your practice of faith, it is sin to you. NOTE: It should not result from actively pursuing lustful thoughts and not result in otherwise prohibited behavior--homosexual practices and oral sex not claimed to be sex come first to mind.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 8/27/2007 8:42:07 PM
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throughhislens
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From: FL
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I suggest reading Not Even A Hint by Joshua Harris...
it's a good book in general about lust and things associated.
Hope you find answers,
throughhislens
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/21/2007 5:23:02 AM
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Bibleman7
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Dear brothers,
You can only stop masturbating if and only if you have confessed that masturbation is a sin. Many people will deceive you and tell you that masturbation is not a sin. If you believe in their lies, then you cannot stop.
Once you fully believe that masturbation is a sin, then you need to pray to God asking Him for these things: Strength, Wisdom, and Power to allow you to overcome it. You also need to be strong and courageous that you can defeat it. Continue to ask God everyday to deliver you from your bondage of sexual sin.
< Message edited by Bibleman7 -- 9/22/2007 2:46:15 AM >
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/21/2007 8:18:15 AM
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guitarmark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bibleman7
You can only stop masturbating if and only if you have confessed that masturbation is a sin.
It isn't...
This is another one of the endless Christian debates and there is nothing to indicate that it's a sin. Our particular thoughts may be sinful, but the act itself isn't. The pro-sin crowd needlessly heaps guilt upon the entire population of young men, in most cases I imagine, because they feel guilt themselves about doing it. Stats show that 98% of men do it (and 2% likely deny it).
I like what Dr. James Dobson says about it (paraphrasing): "I find it hard to believe that a loving God would put such a burning desire into the hearts of young men and then deny them the right to act upon it."
Obviously, this can be said about premarital sex too, but we're talking about something that is personal and that is not mentioned as a sin in any conceivable fashion in God's Word. Sorry all you Onan fans...
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/21/2007 11:45:15 AM
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DaveW
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Well, like many other things, if you really believe it is a sin then to you it is a sin.
Which is why we really need to be careful on how we define what sinful. You can get to a place where you believe something is sinful that is even commanded in scripture, and then if you obey the scripture you sin because it violates your conscience and if you disobey you sin by not following scripture.
I will define an activity as always sinful ONLY if it clearly is prohibited in scripture. M does not meet that standard.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/21/2007 12:47:22 PM
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guitarmark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelman
If your conviction is saying one thing and mine another. Somebody is lying somewhere. God does not contradict. We both have the same Holy Spirit and He does not give mixed messages.
Be careful...
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Open-minded discussions about life, love and fun - based on Godly principles, yet decidedly free from gratuitous quoting of Scripture. This is my promise to refrain from typing Bible verses at you…
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/22/2007 2:57:19 AM
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Bibleman7
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quote:
Original: DaveW
Well, like many other things, if you really believe it is a sin then to you it is a sin. Which is why we really need to be careful on how we define what sinful.
Please put aside your ignorance and listen carefully. Any man claiming that masturbating is not a sin is a liar and a deceiver. Let the Lord our God deal with them.
Man does NOT define sin and man CANNOT forgive sin. God has already stated what sin is in the bible. Read the scriptures for understanding and knowledge of sin. Masturbation is a sin as stated in scripture because it involves the following:
1. Arousing and caressing one's sexual organs. (sexual intercourse)
2. Having sexual fantasies
3. Addiction, dependency, & idolatry to masturbating
4. Involves sexual lust
5. It gratifies the sexual desires of your flesh
< Message edited by Bibleman7 -- 9/22/2007 1:45:46 PM >
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/22/2007 9:11:40 AM
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guitarmark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bibleman7
Please put aside your ignorance and listen carefully. Any man claiming that masturbating is not a sin is a liar and a deceiver. Let the Lord our God deal with them.
This HAS TO BE a violation of TOS - I am not a liar nor am I a deceiver...
Moderators????
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Open-minded discussions about life, love and fun - based on Godly principles, yet decidedly free from gratuitous quoting of Scripture. This is my promise to refrain from typing Bible verses at you…
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/22/2007 11:47:54 AM
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kljohnson77
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bibleman7
quote:
Original: DaveW
Well, like many other things, if you really believe it is a sin then to you it is a sin. Which is why we really need to be careful on how we define what sinful.
Please put aside your ignorance and listen carefully. Any man claiming that masturbating is not a sin is a liar and a deceiver. Let the Lord our God deal with them.
Man does NOT define sin and man CANNOT forgive sin. God has already stated what sin is in the bible. Read the scriptures for understanding and knowledge of sin. Masturbation is a sin as stated in scripture because it involves the following:
1. Arousing and caressing one's sexual organs. (sexual contact)
2. Having sexual fantasies
3. Addiction, dependency, & idolatry to masturbating
4. Involves sexual lust
5. It gratifies the sexual desires of your flesh
I assume you found this certitude in the Book of Evasions or perhaps in the Books of Opinions I and II ...
Otherwise, cite where the Bible says that masturbation itself is what you said it is. We should avoid at all costs the expressions of lust outlined in Scripture, but that is both the foundation and limit of our 'definitions.'
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/22/2007 10:25:37 PM
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walterquez
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I don't know why this is debatable among modern scholars when the meaning and usage of the Greek word is clearly understood by them, the Greeks.
quote:
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
The Greek word is "malakos" which to the modern Greek means masturbation. Ask any Greek. And this meaning was also understood by the early Christians who spoke Greek.
It is clear from this passage that those who do this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
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For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/22/2007 10:53:37 PM
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High_Hopes
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
I don't know why this is debatable among modern scholars when the meaning and usage of the Greek word is clearly understood by them, the Greeks.
quote:
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
The Greek word is "malakos" which to the modern Greek means masturbation. Ask any Greek. And this meaning was also understood by the early Christians who spoke Greek.
It is clear from this passage that those who do this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
effeminate means for a man to portray feminine behavior or also could mean homosexual behavior. where did you get the word Malakos because I'm confused by that.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/22/2007 11:43:34 PM
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walterquez
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Look up the Strong's for effeminate mentioned in 1Co 6:9, it is "malakos".
The definition there is from modern scholars tho, but if you ask any Greek today what that word means, it is not a good word you would want to be called by for it means masturbator. And if I am correct, this is how the Greek Church for centuries has interpreted it.
Why the English translation has "effeminate", I don't know. But since it was written in Greek, I would give the Greek definition more weigh than the English one.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2007 2:22:21 PM
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Bibleman7
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Walterquez is correct.
The word malakos, #3120 in the Greek Dictionary of The New Testament of James Strong's Exhaustive Concordance to The Bible translates: "of uncertain affinity".
In modern Greek, the word malakia has come to mean "masturbation", and its derivative malakas means "one who masturbates" (i.e. "wanker"). Depending on the tone of voice, this term can be used colloquially as a friendly greeting or in a derogatory sense when angry. This word is very common in modern Greece.
< Message edited by Bibleman7 -- 9/23/2007 6:27:27 PM >
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2007 4:36:27 PM
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walterquez
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quote:
1Co 6:9 Or do ye not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Cease being led astray; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor mastubators, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor coveters, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor raveners shall inherit the kingdom of God.
For one it is in the Holy Scripture, that they will not inherit the kingdom of God if they continue in it.
As for an explanation why this is so, it is because it is not love. Love is what you give to another person, in this case the only other appropriate person is your spouse. Self pleasure is not love, but a selfish act. Even if your thoughts include your spouse, you're deceiving yourself, because your spouse is not receiving any of it, but yourself. It is purely selfish. It is all about me.
It is the same if you do this with another person other than your spouse, because even tho you're giving it to another person, the real reason why you're doing it is for self pleasure only. It is nothing less than a selfish act which is sin.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2007 5:31:10 PM
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guitarmark
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quote:
ORIGINAL: walterquez
I don't know why this is debatable among modern scholars when the meaning and usage of the Greek word is clearly understood by them, the Greeks.
quote:
1Co 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
The Greek word is "malakos" which to the modern Greek means masturbation. Ask any Greek. And this meaning was also understood by the early Christians who spoke Greek.
It is clear from this passage that those who do this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
I'm not an expert in Greek - I studied biology in college. That being said, I have never heard this interpretation entertained seriously among any modern scholars. There may be fringe groups who believe it, but with the many thousands of people involved in Biblical translation and interpretation who have contributed to all of the modern transalations, this has never even been suggested in passing as an alternative interpretation.
That being said, the opinion of one or two doesn't carry much weight.
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Open-minded discussions about life, love and fun - based on Godly principles, yet decidedly free from gratuitous quoting of Scripture. This is my promise to refrain from typing Bible verses at you…
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/23/2007 7:40:29 PM
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walterquez
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The letters to the Corinthians was written in Greek, not English. The word written there says "malakos", not "effeminate" or any other English word.
Fortunately for us, the Greeks are still with us, and if you ask any of them the meaning of this word, they will surely tell you it refers to masturbation. You don't need to be a scholar to understand this, and besides, a Greek is more than a scholar since it is their native language.
Why would you take a scholar who only took a few semesters of foreign language word over a native who speaks that language? Because of this, I am confused at why some of them are even called experts or scholars of the Greek language.
_____________________________
St. Athanasius the Great
For our Canons and our forms were not given to the Churches at the present day, but were wisely and safely transmitted to us from our forefathers.
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2007 1:21:32 AM
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Bibleman7
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I want to add something to what my brother Walterquez just said.
1. The Old Testament was originally written in Hebrew.
2. (Daniel, Ezra, and Jeremiah) was originally written in Aramaic.
2. The entire New Testament was originally written in Greek.
4. The first English NT translation from Greek was in 1526 by William Tyndale
5. The first English OT translation from Hebrew in 1529-30 by William Tyndale.
6. The first English Bible (OT+NT) was written in 1535 by Myles Coverdale.
7. The first publication of the Great Bible was in (1539-40).
< Message edited by Bibleman7 -- 9/24/2007 1:58:27 AM >
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2007 6:47:13 AM
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DaveW
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rebelmanquote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
Well, like many other things, if you really believe it is a sin then to you it is a sin. I'm glad to know you think God gives some sins and others not. That means God changes and has favoritism now doesnt it? I hate it when I see Christians put their post modernism individualism on here. I base this on Paul's statement:
Rom 14:23b whatever is not of faith is sin.
That is in the context of eating, but this is the underlying principle. No matter what you do, EVEN IF IT IS COMMANDED IN SCRIPTURE, but is not done in faith it is sin. PERIOD. Two people can do the exact same thing and one sins while the other does not. IT IS A MATTER OF WHERE THAT PERSON'S FAITH IS AT. There is no favoritism or respector of persons there, no changing of God. This is the heart of the New Covenant, where your heart and mind and faith are at.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2007 12:10:36 PM
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DaveW
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Scholars?
How many of us native English speakers know how the word "sin" was used prior to 1611? (publishing of the KJV) Unless some scholar/linguist had told us, would we be aware of it being an archery term meaning to miss the target? (with no spiritual connotation whatsoever) That was only 400 years ago.
Are we aware of how the word "ervah" was used when Moses penned Deut 24:1:
When a man takes a wife and marries her, if then she finds no favor in his eyes because he has found some indecency (ervah) in her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce and puts it in her hand and sends her out of his house, and she departs out of his house,
In the first century bc Shammai and Hillel disputed about the use of the word and they were both native Hebrew speakers. Of course they were some 1200-1500 years after Moses.
The thing is language changes, and fairly rapidly at that. How many here remember when "gay" meant happy and a "thong" was a type of sandal? That has been just in my lifetime.
If a certain word has a current meaning in Greek today, or even 1500 years ago, that does not mean it was used that way 2000 years ago. I will trust the linguistic scholars who have said it indicated the more passive one in a male homosexual relationship.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: Masturbation - One Stop Thread - 9/24/2007 4:10:04 PM
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Bibleman7
Posts: 264
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quote:
Two people can do the exact same thing and one sins while the other does not.
DaveW, you are wrong.
This is NOT what the bible teaches.
< Message edited by Bibleman7 -- 9/24/2007 4:17:10 PM >
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