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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/17/2008 9:41:45 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Amen, Sudzer. Oliver128, if you found out about sin by reading the Law if you turn from sin this naturally means you turn from lawless. LOL While revealing what sin is, it declares what the righteousness of God is in Christ Jesus. I thank you for the dialogue, we all are pressing toward the mark... I pray the eyes of your understanding be enlighten more and more.
We all know the law reveals rebellion and sin against God. But we also know that some of the things it said were sin are no longer sin. That's one of the reasons that makes the argument that since the law condemns us as sinners that the remedy for that is to now do all that the law says.
Nobody's arguing that we can now commit adultery, and steal, and lie. Don't even waste the time and energy going there. This is about the ceremonial aspects of the law, and for this thread that means the literal Sabbath regulation.
I think most literal law-keepers agree with me that the NT clearly teaches that not being literally circumcised, which used to be a sin according to the original pure law of Moses, is not a sin anymore. Based on this one example alone (there are others, but this one can't be rationalized away by other circumstances), how can we say the law of Moses is the definitive source of how not to sin against God? Particularly since the things that we agree have changed are ceremonial and procedural in nature? How do you defend keeping all of the ceremonies and procedures of the OT simply because they are in the OT, and that they are praised as being truth during the time of the OT, knowing that some of them have undeniably changed now? My point is, you need a better argument than the one you are using.
It used to be a sin with the penalty of death for working on the Sabbath. But Paul chastises the Galatians for "observing special days and months and seasons and years" (Gal. 4:10). And we know he's talking about the law of Moses. The entire context of his discourse is about the law of Moses, the real law of Moses where circumcision is taught, which he makes reference to confirming the context of his discussion as the real law of Moses (definately including it, anyway).
How can you chastise someone for keeping literal OT calendar dates and then turn right around and tell them they have too keep them because they are still binding?
(Remember, no need to talk about murder, adultery, lying, etc...; things that we both agree are mentioned in the NT as still being sin under the New Covenant.)
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/19/2008 12:59:36 PM
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mcleod
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As I wrote earlier in this thread that. We started out the story in the scriptures that Adam and Eve was in the Garden of Eden where they were in God sabbath. They didn't do much work they went around and ate food that was on tress and bushes. Really had it nice compared to what happen after the fall.
When we come to the end of the story that is in Revelation about the city coming down out of Heaven. We see that we have entered again into a restful (sabbath) state of being. That we no longer think of ways in which to practices evil desires that at one time were in planted in us since the fall. We then will rest forever knowing that our creator is in control and the evil one has been put away. This is the sabbath that God throughout the ages has been trying to get us to understand. Yet we keep think its about a day of the week, number seven to be exact. Yet it's about a lifestyle we live all the time.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/19/2008 10:22:47 PM
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Saved-To-Serve
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quote:
ORIGINAL: oliver128
The Law has not passed away - as long as there are sinners needing to be lead to repentance, the Law will remain and serve its purpose. But the Law is not for those who are walking in the Spirit. Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love ... so you see, by walking in the Spirit we bear the Fruit of the Spirit which is Love and when we Love we fullfil the entire Law without doing any work ourselves for that Love is the fruit of the work of the Spirit that is in us.
The apostle James makes it clear that genuine faith is manifested in good works/obedience.
< Message edited by Saved-To-Serve -- 2/19/2008 10:29:03 PM >
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/20/2008 9:43:51 AM
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SpongeBlog
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I'm not going to rehash much of what has already been debated to this point with this group of forum participants. I'm not here to change your mind. It's all about lurkers who honestly don't know why the Gentile Church doesn't keep many of the OT ceremonies anymore and get confused about words like 'forever' and 'for all generations'.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
I'm also well aware of the tendency to cite the Spirit and do away with the word. But the Spirit points us to the word, and true living in the Spirit is living by the word, which upholds the commandments of God right down to the very last book - Revelation.
It sounds good but nobody seems to want to address most of the points that I bring up and one of those is the example of not muzzling the ox while it's treading out the grain. Paul plainly tells us it's not about the ox, it's about us. This is a very clear and direct explanation of embracing the spirit of a law and discarding the literal. Why do people say you cannot do this with the law and that it is not a legitimate principle when we have several examples to prove otherwise--both big and small?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
Christ died to set us free from bondage to sin (transgression of the law), which means that we can now live in harmony with that law.
He also died to set us free from the condemnation held over us by the law we broke. We could not pay the penalty ourselves, and the broken law demanded our death. Christ paid the penalty (death) to set us free from having to pay it ourselves. Some people interpret this as meaning that He abolished the law. But God doesn’t save us or cancel our sin, or forgive us, but doing away with the law. He sent Christ to appease the law for us, and to empower us to live in harmony with its principles and requirements.
Christ also died to set us free from the burden of fulfilling the ceremonial requirements of the law. Why is it necessary to fulfill the requirements of a ceremony or procedure that is satisfied in Christ's literal work on the cross? We both agree it is not necessary to sacrifice an animal anymore for sin because we have the sacrifice of Christ to fulfill those requirements.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
Trust in God enables us to live righteously and in harmony with the law, rather than breaking it. If we don’t live in harmony with the literal requirements of the law, then we literally transgress.
Circumcision and animal sacrifice make this statement untrue.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
And yet the 10-commandment law, which points out sin, and of which sin is the transgression, is an indivisible package. We either take the whole, or discard the whole. We cannot pick and choose which aspects we want. To transgress in one aspect is to transgress against the whole.
But I've already made the case that it is possible to have a requirement fulfilled on our behalf with no further literal compliance required. The Sabbath requirement is met in the finished work of Jesus Christ. This isn't about a commandment being abolished as you and others understand that. It's about a commandment being fulfilled for us and the benefit of which we receive when we believe.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
I’m familiar with the recent (unenlightened) arguments that no distinction can be made, or should be made, between law the 10-commandment law and the entire body of Jewish law, including the civil and the ceremonial. But the scripture clearly enjoins us to rightly divide the word of truth.
The 10-commandment law is an expansion of the law to love – love God and our fellowman.
But if I fulfill the Sabbath requirement legitimately by faith in Christ why doesn't that count? Christ's work is not good enough all by itself?
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
The 10 commandments were also given special place – spoken by God directly to the Israelites, written by God Himself on tablets of stone, and placed in the ark of the covenant. They were also called the “testimony”, clearly identifying them as an earthly representation of the great original in heaven....The 10 commandments are for all mankind.
Again, faith in Christ didn't negate the Sabbath, it fulfilled it. Just like the law of sacrifice, I'm not found in violation of the literal command if I believe in Jesus.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
So, people get irritable when others try to make them steal, commit adultery, etc? You are beginning to get into that which you know not of.
No, they get made when you make it hard for them to keep ceremonies and procedures they feel compelled to do at the risk of God's displeasure. The fruit of the Spirit is not like that.
quote:
ORIGINAL: Saved-To-Serve
For sure the 10 commandments are not meaningless. They point out sin. To transgress them is sin, and has always been – before they were enunciated at Sinai, and ever since then.
With the Sabbath requirement now being satisfied by Christ apart from my added efforts, it would now be meaningless (or rather of little meaning) for me to now keep it literally. Christ's work is the meaningful of the Sabbath, not mine.
I'm not ignoring the rest of your post, I have to run.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/20/2008 9:46:58 AM
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LBolt
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Wow, Saved-to-Serve, that post was impressive. Especially like the Rev. 15 & 11 scriptures. What did God say about the New Covenant---I will write my Law (Torah) on their hearts and minds and they will be my people and I will be their God.
Notice the rich young ruler who came to him. He told the Lord that he kept all the commandments from his youth. The Bible said that Yahshua looked at him and loved him and then told him that he lacked one thing, "Sell what he had and follow ME."
Notice it said that the LORD loved him. John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
I John 2: 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. Past tense meaning as He was when He came to the earth. He kept the Commandments.
Since we always hear "we have the Holy Spirit now". ---I John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
I John 5:3 says For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Yes we are to love God and our neighbors those are the greatest and the others hinge on these two but we are not to leave the others undone. Notice in the 10, 4 are toward God and 6 pertain to our relationship to man.
Last one, II John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
SELAH
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/20/2008 11:20:44 AM
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mcleod
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Dear LBolt,
quote:
Notice it said that the LORD loved him. John 14:21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
I John 2: 3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him. 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. Past tense meaning as He was when He came to the earth. He kept the Commandments.
Since we always hear "we have the Holy Spirit now". ---I John 3:24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
I John 5:3 says For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
Yes we are to love God and our neighbors those are the greatest and the others hinge on these two but we are not to leave the others undone. Notice in the 10, 4 are toward God and 6 pertain to our relationship to man.
Last one, II John 1:6 And this is love, that we walk after his commandments. This is the commandment, That, as ye have heard from the beginning, ye should walk in it.
And what is your point in all of this writing. Would it surprise you that I keep the sabbath as God intend it to be keep. You get hung up on that it just one day and it's a life time of it. Just as those other laws are a everyday occurrence so is that fourth law that you seem to think its not.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/20/2008 11:31:53 AM
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LBolt
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But you are implying that "every day is the Sabbath." Where I agree being in Christ is a rest, it doesn't negate convocating on the Sabbath as the Bible commanded in numerous places. I know it's difficult to see because you have been taught this by your pastor or leader but truthfully Yahshua's custom was to keep Shabbat and Paul manner was to do the same. These two individuals are the main "culprits" to have done away with the Sabbath, declaring that now every day is a Sabbath. Since you keep sabbath every day do you go to work?
Come on let's rightly divide the Word of God and do things His way instead of our our way!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/20/2008 12:54:12 PM
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mcleod
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Dear LBolt,
quote:
But you are implying that "every day is the Sabbath." Where I agree being in Christ is a rest, it doesn't negate convocating on the Sabbath as the Bible commanded in numerous places. I know it's difficult to see because you have been taught this by your pastor or leader but truthfully Yahshua's custom was to keep Shabbat and Paul manner was to do the same. These two individuals are the main "culprits" to have done away with the Sabbath, declaring that now every day is a Sabbath. Since you keep sabbath every day do you go to work?
Work yes I go to work everyday of the week.
Guess what I have not been taught by a Pastor or anyone else. I have study the scriptures very much in detail.
As far as you saying that you observe one day. Good, but it appears that when some one makes an issue about have one day of rest is also having it as a requirement to be saved or having a relationship with the Lord. This I see as being very boastful in what a person does in their life. Please don't think that I am making a judgment call on that last part to any one here in this thread.
I notice on another thread that a person of being Jewish decent(which I am also). Talks about going places during the seventh day to have fellowship . What if the car broke down in the middle of the road and you didn't get it to the side of the road. Which means you would have to get out and work to move it.
Get what I'm saying everyday in this society you can work at something. Or you can boost that you keep a certain law. Which I have seen in my life and notice such things. Yet have missed the mark on the other nine laws. So when it comes to thinking about what I have in the creator of the universe everyday. It much easier to study my faults and try to correct them with the Lord's help everyday.
By the way I believe that its a great time to have fun in the Lord and with my fellow human beings.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/21/2008 4:52:39 PM
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LBolt
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I've always understood to be one's vocation, however don't quote me on this one, I'm still relatively new at this. I don't think the LORD would be mad if you, God forbid had a stalled car on Shabbat and worked on it, would condemn you for breaking the Sabbath.
I as well as others contend that you may convocate on any day of the week, however YHWH specifically commanded us to remember the Sabbath to keep it holy. That all we are saying. He obviously had a reason for this otherwise He would not have said it.
If it wasn't important, I would not be on this thread posting this because I know that someone looking for answers will be able to get answers, search the scriptures and make an intelligent decision. That's the only reason for me posting. It's not to carry on a circular argument like we have been on for the past month or two.
People geniunely have questions and they deserve to hear both sides, since they probably will only hear one side of the argument in there church. Someone has to be a voice and speak truth no matter the cost. I've chosen to be one of those voices.
< Message edited by LBolt -- 2/22/2008 12:59:55 PM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/25/2008 10:34:37 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
I've always understood to be one's vocation, however don't quote me on this one, I'm still relatively new at this. I don't think the LORD would be mad if you, God forbid had a stalled car on Shabbat and worked on it, would condemn you for breaking the Sabbath.
I glad you think that. Yet their are people with that mind set.
quote:
I as well as others contend that you may convocate on any day of the week, however YHWH specifically commanded us to remember the Sabbath to keep it holy. That all we are saying. He obviously had a reason for this otherwise He would not have said it.
Just think when you die are working anymore? You could at that time enter into God's rest or Sabbath. Remember what the writer in Hebrews was writing about. another day in the future.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/25/2008 10:58:01 AM
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LBolt
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I've always understood that God uses the literal to teach the spiritual without actually undoing the literal meaning. So if we were commanded to commerate His creation and convocate on the Sabbath, what's wrong in doing it? What's wrong in obeying what He tells us to? Let me me take this a step further, what wrong with celebrating the other Feasts seeing Christ in it as we do? I don't get it. Coupled with the revelation you already have about Christ and resting in Him, why not do it as he said?
Explain to me this scripture in Matt. 24, where Messiah was teaching His disciples about end-time events and He tells them to "pray ye that your flight be not in the winter or on the Sabbath day..."
This was wrote 30-40 years after the death, burial and resurrection!! Why was there any mention of the Sabbath day if it was "done away with or fulfilled" as we have been taught?
I am to assume that Christ was talking about the end-times am I right. Peter spoke of the end-times beginning after the ascension of Messiah in Acts 2 or 3. So we see that Sabbath was still intact and was widely practiced by the early followers.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/25/2008 11:54:21 AM
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mcleod
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Because Jesus the anointed one is the one in which to rest. As Jesus said;Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble heart, and you will find rest (or sabbath) for your souls.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/25/2008 12:05:27 PM
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LBolt
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I don't deny this fact but you still never answered my questions. McLeod, Bible scholar, answer the Matt. 24 question?
Why is Sabbath even mentioned, it's supposed to be done away with??  Was He referring to the restful state that we as believers enter into when we accept Messiah as LORD and Savior?
As far as the yoke of Messiah, Torah, and not the man-made fences that they were subjected to from the religious leaders of the day, it is easy and light. They aren't grevious!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/25/2008 1:37:39 PM
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Ps103
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/25/2008 1:39:33 PM
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Ps103
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/25/2008 10:20:40 PM
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sudzer
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When was this change made? This change was made by the Catholic church in the year 364 A.D. in the Council of Laodicea. They transferred the solemnity of Saturday to Sunday. Peter Geirmann, The Converts Catechism, p50. (This catechism received the pope's blessing on Jan 25. 1910). quote, "The observance of Sunday by the Protestants is an homage they pay in spite of themselves to the authority of the Catholic Church. Plain Talk Protestants.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/25/2008 10:26:36 PM
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sudzer
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Thus have you made the commandment of God of none efect by your tradition. Butin vain do they worship me teaching for doctrines the commandments of men. Mat 15:6-9. Precept upon precept and line upon line, here a little there a little, this is how God teaches us all. May we all have ears that hear and eyes that see. As Paul said being not decieved as some have been. Blessings to all Sudzer
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/28/2008 2:18:38 PM
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LBolt
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I don't deny this fact but you still never answered my questions. McLeod, Bible scholar, answer the Matt. 24 question?
Why is Sabbath even mentioned, it's supposed to be done away with?? Was He referring to the restful state that we as believers enter into when we accept Messiah as LORD and Savior?
McLeod have you had the chance to research this further yet! Matthew 24-25 are regarded as end-time teachings and we know grom Peter in Acts, that the end-times began after the ascension of Messiah and the giving of the Holy Spirit.
Please expound on this or anyone for that matter.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/28/2008 8:07:58 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I don't deny this fact but you still never answered my questions. McLeod, Bible scholar, answer the Matt. 24 question?
Why is Sabbath even mentioned, it's supposed to be done away with?? Was He referring to the restful state that we as believers enter into when we accept Messiah as LORD and Savior?
McLeod have you had the chance to research this further yet! Matthew 24-25 are regarded as end-time teachings and we know grom Peter in Acts, that the end-times began after the ascension of Messiah and the giving of the Holy Spirit.
Please expound on this or anyone for that matter.
I already addressed this in a recent post. We know from Luke that Jesus was talking about the time when Jerusalem was to judged and dispersed to the nations. The italics parts establish this as a prophecy concerning the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD.
"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (Luke 21:20-24)
It's no surprise that there were probably Sabbath keepers at this time. Nobody's contending that it took time for literal ceremonial law observance to fall out of practice. Hebrews 8:13 testifies to the eventual disappearance of the old practices, some of which were apparently still being practiced at the time of the writing of Hebrews.
"When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear."
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 10:38:13 AM
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LBolt
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Welcome back, SpongeBlog!! 
This was the best answer you gave by far, however it still falls short. This is referring to AD 70 however, it's refering to the end-time events of today as we are seeing some of thevery same things unfold in Irsael. BTW, I have a Pastor friend in Isreal and he told me that at 6 p.m Friday, every thing in the holy city shuts down. No taxi services, stores etc are found open. So that Orthodox Jews don't even drive vehicles on Sabbath, it would make it very difficult to flee during that time.
As far as Hebrew 8, the context reveals the Aaronic priesthood and it's various ordinances which was due to change with the Temple's destruction, and Christ's Melchizedec Priesthood, which is far superior was know in effect. Otherwise, why would the Law be place in our hearts and minds if it was to be done away with. This is the NEW Covenant!! The problem wasn't with the covenant it was with the people, who had a stony heart due to their unwillingness to obey and trust God.
KJV of Hebrews 8:6-13
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, F23 which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put F24 my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away
unrighteousness-is lawlessness
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 12:53:44 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1071
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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HI LBolt,
quote:
No taxi services, stores etc are found open. So that Orthodox Jews don't even drive vehicles on Sabbath, it would make it very difficult to flee during that time.
Just think if they really hung up about the Sabbath keeping. When an enemy army would came upon them. They might perish right. Maybe these people whom Yeshua was talking to, were one's who just got of bed that day, and did nothing after that. It would be quite a kill for the enemy.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 12:55:26 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 976
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Welcome back, SpongeBlog!!
This was the best answer you gave by far, however it still falls short. This is referring to AD 70 however, it's refering to the end-time events of today as we are seeing some of thevery same things unfold in Irsael. BTW, I have a Pastor friend in Isreal and he told me that at 6 p.m Friday, every thing in the holy city shuts down. No taxi services, stores etc are found open. So that Orthodox Jews don't even drive vehicles on Sabbath, it would make it very difficult to flee during that time.
I agree about the dual nature of Jesus's prophecy. That's why I generally don't use prophecy to settle doctrinal arguments (prophecy never quite seems to get fulfilled the way men think it will be). By God's design, it seems the value of prophecy comes after it's fulfillment. One of the values of that way is no man can boast about, or take credit for knowing it ahead of time. In general, it seems He allows selected men to be able to discern the fact that God is planning and pointing to something and the specifics get played out in such a way that no man can boast about His discernment, and God gets all the glory. I think all of the popular end-times prophecy that's been tossed around for the last 50 years is proof of what I'm saying. Too many people 'going beyond what is written' and causing a lot of arguments hoping they'll be remembered for the one who figured it all out. I say leave prophecy alone to fulfill itself and just stick to the facts that God has revealed and leave speculation alone unless it has a very big, humble, question mark after it. Anyway...
Traditions die hard. Jesus making mention of the Sabbath is not an iron clad endorsement of literal Sabbath keeping. It can easily be understood as part of the prophetic message along the lines of 'pray this doesn't happen when you are keeping the Sabbath'. And as I contend, anyone anywhere is free to keep a literal Sabbath if they want. We just need to understand it is not disobedience to not do that.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
As far as Hebrew 8, the context reveals the Aaronic priesthood and it's various ordinances which was due to change with the Temple's destruction, and Christ's Melchizedec Priesthood, which is far superior was know in effect. Otherwise, why would the Law be place in our hearts and minds if it was to be done away with. This is the NEW Covenant!! The problem wasn't with the covenant it was with the people, who had a stony heart due to their unwillingness to obey and trust God.
KJV of Hebrews 8:6-13
6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, F23 which was established upon better promises. 7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put F24 my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away
unrighteousness-is lawlessness
I know the passage is talking about the system of literal sacrifice, specifically. But I was using it as support for my argument that it should be no surprise that all of the ceremonial parts of the Old Covenant passed away over time.
The other day I was driving home and it struck me in my spirit how important it is for all of us to understand God has brought us out of deceitful, outward worship and into true spiritual worship. The ills of this world are the result of pride, and envy, and lust, and unforgiveness, and hatred--not that people aren't resting and going to Church on a particular day. And this becomes all the more poignant when you understand (from the scriptures) that no sacrifice of a day of rest or an offering, or ministry means anything whatsoever until you first obey God in the things I just listed. God does not even want them under those circumstances. That alone pulls the rug out from under the argument that they are so paramount in God's eyes'. Like the example of David. It took his profound failure to realize it was not about keeping the external law. It was about what kind of person he was inside. And it wasn't until then that he could offer up acceptable sacrifices to God and teach others the true way of God. I'm sure you know I'm talking about Psalm 51.
Many people are deceived that they are automatically these kind of people simply because they possess the Holy Spirit. No, we become these kind of people when we walk in that Spirit (thus his admonition to do so). And Paul plainly tells us the fruit of the Spirit is how you walk in the Spirit. We do not become those kind of people by keeping the literal ceremonial law. The ceremonial laws are not the measuring rod of being the people God wants us to be. Nor can they make us those kind of people. David knew it was all about a humble and contrite heart (humble and contrite people who mourn over sin don't hurt other people). It was not his outward worship that God was looking for.
I'm not at all surprised that your Protestant background did not teach this to you. My epiphany regarding the church in general today led me to the real answer for the apostate church of today--Christlike character, not a return to hard and fast external requirements (We both know they have plenty of their own). And this message came to me in the scriptures, coupled with the hypocrisy of the church, not from someone's personal agenda and indoctrination.
I want you to continue to keep the literal requirements of the Old Covenant (the one's you've decided you should keep). But someday, hopefully, when you see with your spirit what really matters to God you'll see how meaningless it is to continue to adhere to powerless outward Old Covenant restraints (as required as they used to be). When you understand deep in your spirit that it's about not being envious, or jealous, or hateful, and not loving others with conditions, you'll find the faith to turn away from the things you feel so compelled to do now.
You may want to get with Anasavata (spelling?) and work it out with her why even she understands Gentiles are not bound by literal OT regulations, save for four. I don't want to make an issue of literal law keeping with a blood Jew because I don't want to risk alienating them from Christ. It's wonderful that any Jew believe in Christ. I don't want to destroy that work by either turning them away from Christ, or by causing them to do something contrary to their conscience. I don't think I run that much of a risk with Gentiles, but I still am concious of that risk.
Like sacrifice for sin, all the other external and ceremonial requirements of the Law were satisfied in full once and for all when we believed and were sealed with the Holy Spirit. And by that same Holy Spirit we fulfill the continuing debt to love (care enough not to hurt) our fellow man.
Thank God for the New Covenant.
Happy Sabbath!
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 1:08:36 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1071
Joined: 4/4/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
The other day I was driving home and it struck me in my spirit how important it is for all of us to understand God has brought us out of deceitful, outward worship and into true spiritual worship. The ills of this world are the result of pride, and envy, and lust, and unforgiveness, and hatred--not that people aren't resting and going to Church on a particular day. And this becomes all the more poignant when you understand (from the scriptures) that no sacrifice of a day of rest or an offering, or ministry means anything whatsoever until you first obey God in the things I just listed. God does not even want them under those circumstances. That alone pulls the rug out from under the argument that they are so paramount in God's eyes'. Like the example of David. It took his profound failure to realize it was not about keeping the external law. It was about what kind of person he was inside. And it wasn't until then that he could offer up acceptable sacrifices to God and teach others the true way of God. I'm sure you know I'm talking about Psalm 51.
Many people are deceived that they are automatically these kind of people simply because they possess the Holy Spirit. No, we become these kind of people when we walk in that Spirit (thus his admonition to do so). And Paul plainly tells us the fruit of the Spirit is how you walk in the Spirit. We do not become those kind of people by keeping the literal ceremonial law. The ceremonial laws are not the measuring rod of being the people God wants us to be. Nor can they make us those kind of people. David knew it was all about a humble and contrite heart (humble and contrite people who mourn over sin don't hurt other people). It was not his outward worship that God was looking for.
I'm not at all surprised that your Protestant background did not teach this to you. My epiphany regarding the church in general today led me to the real answer for the apostate church of today--Christlike character, not a return to hard and fast external requirements (We both know they have plenty of their own). And this message came to me in the scriptures, coupled with the hypocrisy of the church, not from someone's personal agenda and indoctrination.
I want you to continue to keep the literal requirements of the Old Covenant (the one's you've decided you should keep). But someday, hopefully, when you see with your spirit what really matters to God you'll see how meaningless it is to continue to adhere to powerless outward Old Covenant restraints (as required as they used to be). When you understand deep in your spirit that it's about not being envious, or jealous, or hateful, and not loving others with conditions, you'll find the faith to turn away from the things you feel | | |
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