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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 1:12:47 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 954
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McLoed, I'm sure you are! 
Good to hear from you!!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 1:43:54 PM
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mcleod
Posts: 1071
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LBolt,
quote:
I don't deny your claims about the fruit of the Spirit. I believe they are vitally important. I really do! I've made up my mind to serve Him the way it's been commanded.
Try not to think it as a commands, but you do it out of love for God. Just like God the Father wasn't commanded to send his son to die for us, but he did it out of love. Nor did Jesus die on a cross because it was commanded for him to do, but did it out of love.
Not preaching this
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 1:51:32 PM
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p31woman
Posts: 635
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From: Texas, and now South Dakota
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quote:
Nor did Jesus die on a cross because it was commanded for him to do, but did it out of love.
But the John 10 says:
17 "This is why the Father loves me: because I lay down my life -- in order to take it up again! 18 No one takes it away from me; on the contrary, I lay it down of my own free will. I have the power to lay it down, and I have the power to take it up again. This is what my Father commanded me to do."
_____________________________
So don't let anyone pass judgment on you in connection with eating and drinking, or in regard to a Jewish festival or Rosh-Hodesh or Shabbat. These are a shadow of things that are coming, but the body is of the Messiah. Colossians 2:16-17
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 2:16:42 PM
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sudzer
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Isa 66:22-23; "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before Me says Hashem, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from on Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before Me, declares Hashem." Shabbot is the enternal sign of God's covenant to His people. Shabbot Shalom Sudzers
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 2:27:17 PM
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LBolt
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Amen! I like this verse in Isaiah
Isaiah 56:1-9
1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, F249 and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed. 2 Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree. 4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant; 5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off. 6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant; 7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people. 8 The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
This sounds like the "engrafting" Paul speaks of!!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 2:28:57 PM
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sudzer
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The sabbath (Sat) is Holy, who is man to change what God has ordained. I will requite this on their heads. The time has come for the church. In the last days there will be one flock one shepard. I am putting a plumline as in Hosea in the church, to sift the chaft from the wheat and the weat shall be a flock to me, and the chaft shall be burn in the fire. Hold fast the things of God. Learn my ways precept unpon prececpt and line upon line. Be still and know that I am God. May the Lord our God stand in the mist of us all and find us Holy as He is Holy. Blessings Sudzer
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 2:34:52 PM
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sudzer
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AMEN AND AMEN LBolt, Isaiah was speaking of our being grafted in to His Branch. Blessing to you sister and keeping you in my prayers Sudzer
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 2:45:09 PM
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mcleod
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p31woman,
Excuse me, but the proceeding words before he stated that he was talking about love. How he was going to give his life for the sheep. Greater love hath no man than this that he lay down his life for a his friend.
His command was that he received from his Father was that he had the authority to lay down his life and the authority to take it it up.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 2:45:13 PM
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LBolt
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Thanks alot, I normally don't ask people I don't know to pray for me but I believe you have an excellent spirit and I think you are trustworthy.
Oh, BTW I'm a brother. LOL
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 2/29/2008 8:04:30 PM
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sudzer
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LOL, Brother. Blessing Sudzer
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/3/2008 1:22:09 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sudzer
Isa 66:22-23; "For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before Me says Hashem, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from on Sabbath to another, all flesh shall come to worship before Me, declares Hashem."
How else would God reckon the passage of time to the nation of Israel at this point in history? What kind of sense would it make to refer to days by 'Saturdays and Sundays', and months by 'February and March'--names that don't even exist yet? You can't defend a doctrine the way you are trying here.
quote:
ORIGINAL: sudzer
Shabbot is the enternal sign of God's covenant to His people. Shabbot Shalom Sudzers
No chance one of the eternal symbols, or signs of being in covenant with God can be the Sabbath rest found in salvation? Circumcision was also a symbol or sign, or proof of being in covenant with God. And we know from the clear teaching of Paul that it is not the literal circumcision that is the measure of that proof, but spiritual circumcision by the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the sign, the mark, the proof, the confirmation, the symbol, the evidence of being in covenant with God. The outward symbols counts for nothing. The Holy Spirit is the sign that you are in covenant with God. The Holy Spirit fulfills all the law's outward requirements to be in covenant with Him. If you believe that being in covenant with God is dependant on you keeping the requirements of a Sabbath or a circumcision, or whatever, then you have fallen from grace and Christ is of no value to you. God giving us the Holy Spirit apart from our works is what makes salvation by faith and not by works. A faith in which no man can boast.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/3/2008 1:29:45 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 976
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quote:
ORIGINAL: sudzer
The sabbath (Sat) is Holy, who is man to change what God has ordained. I will requite this on their heads. The time has come for the church. In the last days there will be one flock one shepard. I am putting a plumline as in Hosea in the church, to sift the chaft from the wheat and the weat shall be a flock to me, and the chaft shall be burn in the fire. Hold fast the things of God. Learn my ways precept unpon prececpt and line upon line. Be still and know that I am God. May the Lord our God stand in the mist of us all and find us Holy as He is Holy. Blessings Sudzer
How could this not be understood as damnation for those who do not keep a literal Sabbath?
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/3/2008 2:00:34 PM
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LBolt
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SpongeBlog is back and has loaded his guns!!
From what I understand regarding circumcision, wasn't Abraham's heart circumcised before God made the covenant with him? That was Paul whole put. Circumcision was a outward manifestion of an inward work. I didn't get circumcise when or after I was saved because I was already circumcise when I was an infant.
Sudzer is right Sabbath is a sign of our consecration to God. It's a seal.
Yes the Holy Spirit in our heart is a seal, but the word of God says, that He would guide into all truth. Torah is truth according to Psa. 119 et al. Ezek. 36 tells us that the Holy Spirit will guide into obedience to God's statues and judgements.
You know what I find hypocrital, Christians debate and lament the fact the 10 Commandments are removed from schools and the courthouses in the US, however when it comes to 4th Commandment, we are as guilty as the murderer. We then come up with various "theories" masked as doctrine in order to justify our lawlessness! Rather than saying, "Man I missed on this one let me repent.", we go right along and do it our way!
Let me clarify a point. We aren't condemning anyone. When reference is made to not being able to enter into the city of New Jerusalem, we aren't talking about not being saved, we are talking about not being allowed to enter the gates into the New Jerusalem. That reserved only for those who love God and keep His commandments. The weeping and gnashing of teeth in Revelation 22 are those who missed that opportunity. The Bible speaks of those who are great in the Kingdom of God and those who are least in the Kingdom. See Matt. 5:17-21
Therefore, we aren't saying that you aren't saved rather you'll miss out on the opportunity to enter the City's gates.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/4/2008 1:15:39 AM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
From what I understand regarding circumcision, wasn't Abraham's heart circumcised before God made the covenant with him? That was Paul whole put. Circumcision was a outward manifestion of an inward work. I didn't get circumcise when or after I was saved because I was already circumcise when I was an infant.
The point of circumcision is that it is a change to the 'truth', or the instructions of the old law that you are so sure are unchangeable. And it is according to that same example of change that we understand all of the other changes regarding the ceremonial requirements of the old law.
The NT clearly teaches that Abraham's literal circumcision was only symbolic of the spiritual circumcision one receives after believing and entering into covenant with God. Abraham's literal circumcision is not teaching that one is to be literaly circumcised after believing. His literal circumcision was an illustration for us to understand spritual circumcision as a result of believing, not the requirement to be literally circumcised after believing.
I know that you know this, that's why I'm using it to show Sabbath keeping is to be understood in this same vein of understanding. As it was for circumcision, the literal Sabbath can be discarded in favor of the reality it represented. The arguments about unchanging truth and instruction just don't mean anything in the light of so much that has changed in the law that we both agree on.
The ceremonial requirements for people who enter into covenant with God are no longer a work of our own, but rather those works are fulfilled on their behalf through the work of Christ and the sending of the Holy Spirit. If you believe they are a work that you fulfill, or a work that you add to Christ's work, then you have fallen from grace. Christ is of no value to you.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Sudzer is right Sabbath is a sign of our consecration to God. It's a seal.
No, the indwelling Holy Spirit that comes as a result of believing in Christ's work on the cross is the seal. This is very clear NT teaching. Spiritual circumcision by the Holy Spirit is the sign of having believed God, as illustrated for us by Abraham's literal circumcision. Now that we know and understand the reality behind literal circumcision it has now been dicarded. The same can be said for literal Sabbath keeping. The literal used to be one of the signs of being in covenant with God, but now that the reality behind the literal is here, we can discard the literal just as has been done with circumcision.
Christ-like character (patience, love, joy, faithfulness, forgiveness, etc.) is the evidence that you are sealed with the Holy Spirit. These character traits are not even the seal. They are only evidences of the seal of the Holy Spirit. Observance of the OT ceremonies is neither the seal itself or the evidence of being sealed with the Holy Spirit. If it were so, the NT would say so. Instead it plainly says a change of character as seen in the fruit of the Spirit, not outward worship, is the evidence of being sealed with the Holy Spirit.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Yes the Holy Spirit in our heart is a seal, but the word of God says, that He would guide into all truth. Torah is truth according to Psa. 119 et al. Ezek. 36 tells us that the Holy Spirit will guide into obedience to God's statues and judgements.
And the NT writers have explained to us what that obedience looks like, and it does not include the literal OT observances.
Answer this for me: In 1 John 3:4, Why didn't John say 'lawlessness is sin?' instead of what he actually said, "sin is lawlessness'? Do you know what the difference is? You'll have to think outside of the box of your indoctrination to see the difference.
Not everything in the law is a sin anymore. This unchanging 'truth' you defend in the OT is not as unchanging as you think. The Holy Spirit has brought us into new and deeper and more important revelations of truth. You are stuck in a period of lesser revelation and need to come out of the Hebraic mindset and into the mind of Christ, the mind of the Spirit.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
You know what I find hypocrital, Christians debate and lament the fact the 10 Commandments are removed from schools and the courthouses in the US, however when it comes to 4th Commandment, we are as guilty as the murderer...
Old truth. Like circumcision, literal Sabbath keeping is no longer a requirement for the people of God. NT believers are not as guilty as murderers for not keeping a literal Sabbath. You're probably not handling that real well right now, but animal sacrifice and circumcision are proof that the law has changed. It used to be true that not keeping those literally made you subject to the penalty of a murderer, but not anymore. The law really has changed. You can't go by the old way anymore. You need to come into New Testament truth now.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
...We then come up with various "theories" masked as doctrine in order to justify our lawlessness! Rather than saying, "Man I missed on this one let me repent.", we go right along and do it our way!
(I know this sounds redundant, but I know you're having a hard time getting it) Like circumcision, some things simply are not required literally anymore. Is the NT teaching that animal sacrifice and circumcision are no longer required theories designed to do away with the unpleasant task that they are, or has new revelation brought us up into the realities those things only represented? The only way you'll get this is if you can understand how the laws of sacrifice, circumcision, and the one place of worship have been replaced by the actual truths those things only represented.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Let me clarify a point. We aren't condemning anyone. When reference is made to not being able to enter into the city of New Jerusalem, we aren't talking about not being saved, we are talking about not being allowed to enter the gates into the New Jerusalem. That reserved only for those who love God and keep His commandments. The weeping and gnashing of teeth in Revelation 22 are those who missed that opportunity. The Bible speaks of those who are great in the Kingdom of God and those who are least in the Kingdom. See Matt. 5:17-21
Therefore, we aren't saying that you aren't saved rather you'll miss out on the opportunity to enter the City's gates.
You know this doctrine doesn't stand the test of context. You have read who are outside the gates, have'nt you? These are condemned people, not disobedient believers.
"Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." (Revelation 22:11)
Where are the list of unkept OT ceremonies you say will keep these people out of the gates of the City?
Paul says people who practice the things listed in Rev. 22 are condemned, not assigned a lesser station in the next age. Don't be deceived. These people outside the gates are condemned!
"Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Cor. 6:9-11)
To be sanctified and justified means to inherit the kingdom, not stand outside looking in as a second class citizen because you didn't keep a literal Sabbath or feast while on earth. Either you inherit the kingdom or you don't. There is no middle ground.
Friend, you are the victim of an indoctrination. This indoctrination has blinded you and taught you to twist key passages in the NT to mean the exact opposite of what they are saying. The Colossians and Galatians passages being classic examples.
The admonitions of the NT are to walk in newness of character, not follow the literal ceremonial parts of the old law. We both know that these principles of character were already a part of the law just like the ceremonies were. But the writers of the NT don't refer to them vaugely as 'the law', or skip over them as being understood as already being part of the law like you claim they did with the ceremonial aspects. No, they explicity and plainly tell us what is expected of the NT believer. And none of their admonitions and warnings include literal ceremonial law keeping observance.
The NT says that people who are out of covenant with God are known by things like greed, lust, covetousness, idolatry, witchcraft, love of the world, folly, adultery, hatred, favortism, etc...not that they don't keep a literal Sabbath or a feast, or similar ceremonial law. The argument that those are just understood and don't need mentioning is not a good argument in the light of all that is also part of the law but which they took much time and space to explain to us.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/4/2008 9:24:56 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 976
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
...The Bible speaks of those who are great in the Kingdom of God and those who are least in the Kingdom. See Matt. 5:17-21
I wouldn't try to build a doctrine out of what Jesus is saying here. He's using a literary tool. If anyone breaks the least of these commands, He will call you least in the kingdom of God. Get it?
He uses that device again (ask an English major what it's called) when speaking to John in Revelation 3:10.
"Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth."
I don't know how well it goes over in the original language but it works good in English.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/4/2008 11:22:25 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 954
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Blog, your traditions make the work of God of no effect. Exo. 31:17 is of no effect.
quote:
You know this doctrine doesn't stand the test of context. You have read who are outside the gates, have'nt you? These are condemned people, not disobedient believers.
"Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." (Revelation 22:11)
Don't you know that according to Jeremiah 10:2, when you take any practice from the world and use to worship God it is idolatrous?
quote:
"Either you inherit the kingdom or you don't. There is no middle ground."
Exactly, not everyone will be annihilated by anti-Messiah, those that are left will go in the Millenial Kingdom, however not all will enter into the city.
Sabbath is not ceremonial! It's Bible. Sunday is man-made ritual and it is not Bible!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/4/2008 11:57:19 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1071
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quote:
Exactly, not everyone will be annihilated by anti-Messiah, those that are left will go in the Millenial Kingdom, however not all will enter into the city.
Sounds like to me a work type salvation. 
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/4/2008 9:32:00 PM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 976
Joined: 12/9/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Blog, your traditions make the work of God of no effect. Exo. 31:17 is of no effect.
Until you can get past your Hebraic mindset and can see with the eyes of the Spirit that the everlasting requirement of the Sabbath is not literal anymore you will be stuck in the meaningless literal. Yes it was required at one time to be fulfilled literally, but like all the other shadows in the OT, it was to teach and lead us to the true reality the literal represented--Christ. Now that we've arrived at our destination we can dicard the road map that helped us get there--unless you want to go back.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Don't you know that according to Jeremiah 10:2, when you take any practice from the world and use to worship God it is idolatrous?
Do you use carved wood and cast metals for chairs and pews and ornamentation in your worship of God? You can see there's a big difference between possessing and using objects made of wood and gold and silver and actually crafting them in order to purposely worship and bow down to them in honor of a false god--and trusting in them instead of the true God. Until I start doing that I will not be worshipping an idol.
These people who stand condemned in Jeremiah are fashioning wood and metal in order to worship the false deity it represents to them. I'm not doing anything even remotely close to that. And it can't happen by accident by virtue of proximity to things fashioned and methods created for the worship of a false god.
The deceitful thing about looking at idol worship the way you do is you may miss the fact that you are indeed trusting in wood and gold and silver even though it has not been purposely fashioned into the likeness of a false god. Catch my drift? The reality of Idol worship goes way beyond bowing down to things crafted after popular pagan depictions of false gods and the methods of worshipping those false gods. But if you get hung up on that you may miss what it really means to worship a false god. If you're trusting in anything outside of God even though you don't have something that others use in the worship of a false god you are still worshipping a false god nevertheless. Going to a church on a Sunday (I don't think church attendance was a requirement of a weekly Sabbath anyway) is not worshipping an idol just because some people are supposedly doing that in order to worship a false god.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
quote:
"Either you inherit the kingdom or you don't. There is no middle ground."
Exactly, not everyone will be annihilated by anti-Messiah, those that are left will go in the Millenial Kingdom, however not all will enter into the city.
The people you say that will be standing outside the City looking in as second class citizens of the age to come will be tossed into the lake of burning fire. They are damned to destruction.
"He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son. But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars (the Rev. 22:15 crowd)—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." (Revelation 21:7-8)
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Sabbath is not ceremonial! It's Bible. Sunday is man-made ritual and it is not Bible!
Don't get hung up on the connotation attached to the word ceremonial. It's an outward expression of worship that follows a preconceived pattern and style. Call it what you want, but I use ceremony for lack of another word. It is this outward worship that follows after patterns and styles that has been replaced by the knowledge of the true worship God delights in--the sacrifice and service of a changed character. Dying daily as living sacrifices, that's what true worship is all about. When you put to death the old self with it's pride and envy and all the other ugly things of the flesh, you are worshipping in Spirit and in truth and not in deceitful and ineffective outward patterns and practices. A humble and contrite heart is the substance of the sacrifice and obedience God delights in from His people.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 3/4/2008 9:40:30 PM >
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2008 10:49:17 AM
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mcleod
Posts: 1071
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quote:
Do you use carved wood and cast metals for chairs and pews and ornamentation in your worship of God? You can see there's a big difference between possessing and using objects made of wood and gold and silver and actually crafting them in order to purposely worship and bow down to them in honor of a false god--and trusting in them instead of the true God. Until I start doing that I will not be worshipping an idol.
Thank you for that enlightenment. I never really thought of that.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2008 10:56:47 AM
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mcleod
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quote:
Don't get hung up on the connotation attached to the word ceremonial. It's an outward expression of worship that follows a preconceived pattern and style. Call it what you want, but I use ceremony for lack of another word. It is this outward worship that follows after patterns and styles that has been replaced by the knowledge of the true worship God delights in--the sacrifice and service of a changed character. Dying daily as living sacrifices, that's what true worship is all about. When you put to death the old self with it's pride and envy and all the other ugly things of the flesh, you are worshipping in Spirit and in truth and not in deceitful and ineffective outward patterns and practices. A humble and contrite heart is the substance of the sacrifice and obedience God delights in from His people.
Exactly what I have been trying to write. Yet I can't do it own my unless I allow Jesus to work his stuff through me. This is the mystery that Paul keeps writing about. That was held from peoples long ago. It is not I but Christ who lives through me.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2008 11:00:59 AM
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LBolt
Posts: 954
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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The only reason I'm responding is to answer the idolatry claim. Easter, Christmas etc., is idolatrous, because we've borrowed elements of baal/Mithra and Christianized it. It's very similar to what the Israelites did when they made the golden calf back in Exodus. We've been given beautiful holidays backed by the scriptures, rich in Christ's imagery, that we don't have to burrow from the devil's inspired holidays and paint a Christian face on them.
I appreciate the dialogue and probably will not be posting anything anytime soon. I've presented enough information along with others to allow a person to review the scriptures and choose for themselves.
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2008 11:26:16 AM
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bjay0801
Posts: 144
Joined: 12/10/2007
Status: offline
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You know, I believe we all have had our own ideas of what idolotry is but I think we have to change our perspective as far as what God thinks idolotry is. Isn't idolotry anything that goes against what God says? Not just bowing down to man made idols. Mixed worship is considered idolotry.Taking things from the world and trying to use them for the worship of God is considered idolotry. It may seem small to us but it's not about us, it's about what the Lord thinks. We need to look at the examples in the bible and take it for what it is. In Ezekiel, there was worship going on in the temple and in people's homes but there were also things that were considered idolotrous in God's eyes that made the worship come to naught. God's people were intergrating things from the nations around them and were using them to worship the Lord and He did not like it one bit. That's all for now.
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O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/5/2008 1:37:06 PM
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Ps103
Posts: 11693
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: Here, now
Status: offline
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This thread is not about holidays, it is about the Sabbath.
Please keep your posts on topic.
Thanks.
Do not reply to this message within the Community, or send me pms or emails about it.
If you have a question or concern, contact community@salemwebnetwork.com
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Fasten your seatbelts...it's going to be a bumpy night.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 9:57:19 AM
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SpongeBlog
Posts: 976
Joined: 12/9/2006
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
...We've been given beautiful holidays backed by the scriptures, rich in Christ's imagery...
The problem is people are making them a matter of law again. And it's only made worse by using the abuses of the Catholic Church to defend doing that, and not being able to understand NT freedom from having to keep letter-of-the-law styles of external worship. The biggest mistake law-keepers make is they see any defense of NT freedom as an endorsement of the things the Catholics did wrong.
quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
...that we don't have to burrow from the devil's inspired holidays and paint a Christian face on them...
This argument would have more merit if the pre-Catholic Church hadn't already formed the habit of meeting on Sunday's in honor of the resurrection, and if people knew that some of the Catholic practices that have replaced the OT observances have there roots in pagan tradition and belief, and were actually seeking to worship a false god through the traditions of the Catholic Church.
I'm still speaking in regard to the Sabbath observance (not idol worship specifically)...but it's clear all through the OT the ancient Israelites were guilty of setting up objects and methods of worship contrary to the law to purposely worship another god. It was not a matter of accidental or unintended worship of false gods. The intent and purpose of their hearts was to seek out other gods. It's wrong to accuse those who don't follow the literal Sabbaths that they are worshipping a false god because they are purposely seeking to do that or that it can happen by accident.
You and others have got to understand that resting on another day, or no day at all is not an attempt to worship a false god. You have to start understanding it as many people recognizing their New Covenant freedom from letter-of-the-law commands for external worship. It's too bad that the issue had to be clouded up by the fact that the Catholic church decided to celebrate Christ in ways that were associated with pagan worship of false gods at that time. But that fact doesn't diminish the truth of NT freedom from the requirements of external worship methods and days.
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 3/6/2008 11:58:44 AM
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bjay0801
Posts: 144
Joined: 12/10/2007
Status: offline
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So even though God is the one who said that sabbath is HIS day, He changed His mind? Then the scriptures must be wrong when David said thy word is percect and settled in heaven forever (Psalms 119:103). We who keep sabbath are doing the same things that are being doen on Sunday. Just doing what the bible says that's all. Leviticus 23:3 says that this is a holy convecation along with being a day of rest. It was changed by man, not God.
P.S. Good to see you again SB!
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O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
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