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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/26/2008 11:28:32 AM
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LBolt
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Please feel free to enlighten us! Sorry for misunderstanding your previous post.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/26/2008 12:08:08 PM
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Odeliya
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Enlighten about what, my precious brother? My position is similar to GC’s / Sponge’s and been explained here in detail. I was rather interested in asking you to kindly enlighten me about Sabbath Keeper( SK) camp position.
Theoretical rationale I get more or less, thanks , but what do SK camp means in reality? What do they think non–SK miss? What do people suppose to be doing ?
See, me and BT just came to interesting agreement that a Christian believer, lets say, ER nurse that works on sabbath ( example in context available on the prev. page) keeps Sabbath just as good as a person that doesn’t work on S.
So literally – working on Sabbath doesn’t make one less pleasing to God.
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/26/2008 2:01:06 PM
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LBolt
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Please forgive the redundancy...but why not start in "practicality" by having worship services on Sabbath. That seems like a good start right there!! This is spelled out in scripture. Lev. 23:1-4
I really don't think it's as "deep" or difficult as it is made out to be. You are making this into a trivial discussion. It was Messiah custom according to Luke 4, to attend synagogue service on Shabbat. There were scripture readings, and there were expositional teaching/preaching.
As far as work is concerned...Elohim is able to make all grace abound. Just like we did on Sunday service if we had a work conflict, we would pray and ask that our schedule be adjusted so that we can have the day off or at least work a different shift. If this is not possible, we believe Yah for Him to move on our behave, but until then we honor it in our hearts and minds. If need be, find a job that will accomodate our religious beliefs. No good thing will He withold from those who walk upright before Him. If we purpose in our heart to obey His voice...He'll make a way. He did it for me.
I remember last year in May, on a National Guard drill weekend, I really wanted to attend Sabbath service but was unable to do so. Out in the field, it was exceptionally cold for that time of year, I prayed in my sleeping bag and asked Him to sup with me on Sabbath. This was Friday @ 10 pm, When I finished praying the glorious presence of Yah filled my space. I was praising and weeping as He was allowing me to recall the scriptures about His love. I wasn't even privy to use my Bible. This lasted for about 3 hours. Man...can Yah talk. This was extremely beautiful and very intimate. This has happened before...but right after I prayed to sup with Him on Sabbath. Wow!! I had to wake up early the next morning. I was so alert and refreshed. I had soo much joy. I know what Dawid means in Psalms 16...in His presence is fulness of joy and at thy right hand there are pleasures for ever more. I believe that because I purpose in my heart to remember His day and keep it, His grace and His presence made up for my insufficiency of not congregating... People were asking me why I was soo overjoyed and I was able to testify of the goodness of my Saviour and the blessedness of His day. HalleluYah!!
To me the shekinah of Yah's presence is the essence of any service. Learning His mind, His thoughts and His ways... Ahhhh!! I sense Him right now!!!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/26/2008 2:29:57 PM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Odeliya
All the advocates of keeping the S. that I seem to see here don’t really leave the theoretical realm and move towards practical application of it. I know experientially about keeping the S and that is what I hoped to see discussed.
quote:
That's between you and Elohim, my dear!! I believe that's what Sha'ul had in mind in Collosians where it say's not to let people judge you in respect to Sabbath, festival...
Then all of us here on the thread are in disagreement. If there are no special requirements..
It is not that there are no requirements, it is just that Scripture gives us very little detail and a few examples. This is why I am confused as to why some are so opposed to keeping Shabbat.
If you need an example, on Erev(the evening) my household recognizes the beginning of Shabbat with the traditional candle lighting(final kindling of a fire), reading the commandment to keep Shabbat and the blessings of the various members of the family, eat a meal and then relax or play a nonexerting game before going to bed. We sleep in as long as we like and then lounge around reviewing articles regarding the passages to be studied and discussing them among ourselves. In the afternoon, everyone in my household meets with others from other households, read Ha Torah and Haftorah according to the rabbinic calander. Then we read a couple of chapters from the histories of Yeshua and His disciples(the Gospels and Acts). We discuss it as we go along and continue the discussion into oneg(a shared meal). We then bid one annother Shavuah Tov(good week). At sundown we do several things similar to the beginning of Shabbat and end with the great commission and the blessing we believe Yeshua used before ascending.
If you have any questions or comments. I would be happy to elaberate.
< Message edited by Bluethread -- 8/26/2008 3:34:53 PM >
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2008 5:27:55 PM
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LBolt
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I came across an interesting sermon by D.L. Moody entitled, "Weighed and Wanting", an excerpt from this sermon is very profound to say the lest.
quote:
D.L. Moody: "Chapter Four
The Fourth Commandment
Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.
There has been an awful letting-down in this country regarding the sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the sabbath properly? You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales? Where were you last sabbath? How did you spend it?
I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was. I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place. "The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath." It is just as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was - in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.
The sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word "remember," showing that the sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?
I believe that the sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.
The church of God is losing its power on account of so many people giving up the sabbath, and using it to promote selfishness.
So sad that he was taught it was Sunday and not the 7th day as taught by the Bible! These are powerful words by a major denominational leader.
It very interesting in that he believed that the Sabbath was from Friday sundown to Sunday sundown. It was obviously changed in his mind!
quote:
D.L. Moody: "Men seem to think they have a right to change the holy day into a holiday. The young have more temptations to break the sabbath than we had forty years ago. There are three great temptations: first, the trolley car, that will take you off into the country for a nickel to have a day of recreation; second, the bicycle, which is leading a good many Christian men to give up their sabbath and spend the day on excursions; and the third, the Sunday newspaper.
Twenty years ago Christian people in Chicago would have been horrified if anyone had prophesied that all the theaters would be open every Sabbath; but that is what has come to pass. If it had been prophesied twenty years ago that Christian men would take a wheel and go off on Sunday morning and be gone all day on an excursion, Christians would have been horrified and would have said it was impossible; but that is what is going on today all over the country."
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 8/31/2008 5:55:49 PM
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LBolt
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James Cardinal Gibbons, a prominent Catholic leader also a Archbishop of Baltimore stated the following: "quote:
The Catholic Church...by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday...you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify." (that "we" being the RCC)
In another place he says, "Of course the Catholic Church claims that the change was her act...and the act is a mark of her ecclesiatical power...Sunday is our mark of authority!" In other words the "Church" transcends the Word of Yahweh and the change from 7th day Sabbath to Sunday Sabbath attests to this. This is a mark of their authority much like Sabbath is a mark (Hebrew owt-a mark or proof) of those who follow Him (Yahweh). See Exodus 31:13.
Are we following the Word of Elohim or the authority of men? You may say that's the RCC but this is me. I don't follow them. Ahhh, but you are following in their customs. Dan. 7:25...This is the spirit of Anti-Messiah at work IMO.
This may seem like an indictment of sorts but it is time for us to wake up and regard the Word of Yah over the traditions of men. This is the same message Yahusha brought against the religious of His day...and this is the same message He is speaking today. Follow the Word of God and disregard man-made customs that usurp the authority of God!
< Message edited by LBolt -- 9/1/2008 9:08:10 AM >
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 3:51:52 AM
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Bluethread
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To be fair LBolt, D.L. Moody is so last century. I'm sure we are beyond that now. What did Jerry Falwell have to say? Sorry, I meant Rick Warren.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 9:29:03 AM
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LBolt
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quote:
To be fair LBolt, D.L. Moody is so last century. I'm sure we are beyond that now. What did Jerry Falwell have to say? Sorry, I meant Rick Warren.
LOL!
Hey, we are upon the shoulders of many great men and women of God. D.L. Moody is extremely influential in modern Evangelical theology. Hey, I got quotes from Augustine, Ignatius, Chysostom and others well respected, well regarded "church fathers" who influenced Christianity. It helps to establish where we inherited our belief structure.
I just recently did a little study on Hebrews 4...and will post it later.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/3/2008 6:23:23 PM
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Bluethread
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I hope you understand, I was being a little tongue in cheek. People who don't want to keep Shabbat like to write off the applicable Scripture by saying Adonai has changed things since then. So, who knows. Maybe Adonai changed things again a few years ago and we just didn't get the memo. It pays to keep current. I'll e-mail Adonai regarding the most current updates. The Ruach Ha Chedosh has not clued me in on that IM stuff yet. Maybe, I'll get a better response if I start refering to Him as RHC.
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"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 4:31:53 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
...People who don't want to keep Shabbat like to write off the applicable Scripture by saying Adonai has changed things since then.
Sorry Blue, but I'm going to have to nail you to the wall on this one. God once instructed his people to offer up specific animals in specific ways in order to obtain his forgiveness. Now that Christ has come, God is no longer speaking those words. We have been made perfect by the sacrifice of Christ, therefore animal sacrifice for sin is no longer being spoken by the Spirit of God. And not just because the Temple is gone, but because they have been made obsolete, just as Hebrews says. There is no more need for God to speak to us about continuing animal sacrifice for sin since we have been declared not guilty forever by the blood of Christ.
"(The law) can never, by the same sacrifices repeated endlessly year after year, make perfect those who draw near to worship. If it could, would they not have stopped being offered? For the worshipers would have been cleansed once for all..." (Heb. 10:1-2)
The point is, they have stopped being offered because we have indeed been made perfect. As a result, God no longer tells his people to offer up animals for forgiveness of sin. Do you understand? Hebrews says if a sacrifice can cleanse the conscience of a worshiper, there is no further need for a sacrifice. Our consciences have indeed been cleansed, therefore, the once binding word of God in regard to animal sacrifice is no longer being spoken. Remember, the author of Hebrews is saying this while the Temple is still standing and operational.
God's voice does in fact change. You need a new argument. 'Literal Sabbath keeping is still in full force because God never changes what he says' is a false and baseless argument.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 6:00:10 PM
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mcleod
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Say Blue your last post was I would say very judgmental over just a day in which doesn't regard anything to life forever. Please be concern where someone is going to not have fellowship with the Father in eternity. Which if you will write that this does have affect on eternity. Then we have a problem in Houston. 
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 6:22:08 PM
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LBolt
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Cloudy skies!!  What's up, long time long read! LOL!!
I recently revisited Heb 4:9 where it says that there still remains a rest for the people of God... The word "rest" is the Hebrew word "Sabbatimos" which should have been translated Sabbath...This is referring to the same day in which Abba rested on--the 7th day. This is so so so plain, if we can only see it.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/4/2008 8:08:32 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Spongee one, once again great sermon, wrong thread. This is the Shabbat thread and longwinded repetition on the wrong subject adds nothing to the argument.
You claim God's word's never change, therefore Sabbath requirement hasn't changed. There are many examples of God's words no longer being spoken. You've got a flawed defense for literal Sabbath keeping. You've got some explaining to do, friend, either here or in the law thread.
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 12:09:35 AM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
...I recently revisited Heb 4:9 where it says that there still remains a rest for the people of God... The word "rest" is the Hebrew word "Sabbatimos" which should have been translated Sabbath...This is referring to the same day in which Abba rested on--the 7th day. This is so so so plain, if we can only see it.
Isaiah prophesied about the time of God's favor when the captives would be set free, and those in darkness would see. He calls that future time the 'day of salvation'.
8 This is what the LORD says:
"In the time of my favor I will answer you, and in the day of salvation I will help you... 9 to say to the captives, 'Come out,' and to those in darkness, 'Be free!' (Isaiah 49:8-9)
Paul quotes this very passage and tells us that day is now here. Christ's coming is the 'time of God's favor', the 'day of salvation'.
"I tell you, now is the time of God's favor, now is the day of salvation." (2 Cor. 6:2).
The 'day' that the writer of Hebrews is referring to is the time of Christ's appearing, the day of salvation. He warns the Hebrews to not harden their hearts to the gospel of Christ as David warned in Psalm 95: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts". If they do, they too will not enter into the promise of God's rest, the day of salvation that has now come. Unbelief will keep them out of God's rest just as unbelief kept the ancient Israelites from entering their rest.
2...we also have had the gospel preached to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because those who heard did not combine it with faith.
3Now we who have believed enter that rest...
6...those who formerly had the gospel preached to them did not go in, because of their disobedience.
7Therefore God again set a certain day, calling it Today (the day of salvation), when a long time later he spoke through David, as was said before: "Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts." 8For if Joshua had given them rest, God would not have spoken later about another day (the one prophesied to come).
9There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest (a 'day' of rest) for the people of God;
10for anyone who enters God's rest also rests from his own work, just as God did from his.
11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience." (Hebrews 4:2-3,6-10 parantheticals mine)
_____________________________
"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 10:25:58 AM
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LBolt
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I hear you... Why then did the Greek use Sabbatismos and not katapausis, which actually means rest?
Why did Messiah teach soo much about Sabbath and how it is to be properly observed?
Why would the author of Hebrews, writing to a people who were already saved, speak of entering God's rest, since, according to your understanding salvation is the Sabbath rest?
Why would the author want them, people already saved, to make every effort to enter "that rest" (salvation) when they've already entered the salvation rest?
I think, like I was in your shoes a little over a year ago, you and many in "Christiandom" have the flawed view and defense for not keeping Sabbath. You are walking in the flawed traditions of those who broke frrom the Catholic Church but still hold to the traditions she introduced. What's killing, I provide quotes such this, "The Catholic Church...by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday...you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify", and more of Catholic who admit that Sabbath to Sunday was their doing and you still want to defend broken doctrines. That's the amazing thing!! Jeremiah spoke of the "broken cisterns which can not hold water"...this is well said and befitting.
It's odd, how you can quote Isaiah so wonderfully and fail to see Isaiah 56 & 58 which speak expressively about the Sabbath, how the stranger shouldn't say I'm too far removed...or the eunuch...that we should call it a delight, that a man is blessed for doing this...
That same chapter 4 in Hebrews speaks of the seventh day when Elohim rested from His works... The writer was encouraging the believers to keep the Sabbath holy by observing it...they were already saved by grace through faith...He wanted to encourage them to keep the faith despite pressures and trials they were experiencing as well as to experience with the Temple being destroyed...
Don't take this personally or the wrong way, there are many beautiful people who are saved and love God who don't obey the Sabbath command, such as your self. I have friends and family, preacher friends and relatives, who I admire and look up to and even support financially, but they are in error in regards to the Sabbath command and are missing out on a tremendous blessing. I think that's what Bluethread especially has been trying to convey in his posts, probably more so than myself. That's what the writer of Hebrews is simply trying to say. We complicate it by trying to add a different "spin" on it's meaning.
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 12:04:04 PM
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mcleod
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
Cloudy skies!! What's up, long time long read! LOL!!
I recently revisited Heb 4:9 where it says that there still remains a rest for the people of God... The word "rest" is the Hebrew word "Sabbatimos" which should have been translated Sabbath...This is referring to the same day in which Abba rested on--the 7th day. This is so so so plain, if we can only see it.
Yeah! Wow you have seen what I saw many years ago on this matter. Where Isaiah wrote about the time where swords will be made into plow share and we won't study war no more. Halluah to that and to God be the Glory for that and every day.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/5/2008 2:12:31 PM
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LBolt
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quote:
Yeah! Wow you have seen what I saw many years ago on this matter. Where Isaiah wrote about the time where swords will be made into plow share and we won't study war no more. Halluah to that and to God be the Glory for that and every day.
LOL!! -Ha, ha, ha, he, he, he
Nice try buddy!!
_____________________________
Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 2:23:37 AM
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Bluethread
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SpongeBlog
quote:
ORIGINAL: Bluethread
Spongee one, once again great sermon, wrong thread. This is the Shabbat thread and longwinded repetition on the wrong subject adds nothing to the argument.
You claim God's word's never change, therefore Sabbath requirement hasn't changed. There are many examples of God's words no longer being spoken. You've got a flawed defense for literal Sabbath keeping. You've got some explaining to do, friend, either here or in the law thread.
Yes, Rickie, I believe I have done quite a lot of 'splanin'. I and anyone else who has followed your rather verbose presentations is aware of your contention that, "There are many examples of God's words no longer being spoken." If anyone is unaware of those "words no longer being spoken", they can wade through the postings in the law thread.
The point of my joke is if Paul is tell us that Shabbat no longer had the meaning in his time that it used to, why couldn't the Pope and D.L. Moody have rightfully told those in their times that Sunday was the appointed time and Jerry Falwell and/or Rich Warren change things again for us today.
_____________________________
"Show me wherein I have errored and I will hold my tongue." Iyov(Job)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 4:57:45 AM
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chadinho
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Just something to think about. Jesus says that man was not made for the sabbath but that the sabbath was made for man. I think it's important to note that he says it was made for "man" and not "Jews". With that in mind, I would suggest that the sabbath is for all of God's people, Jew and Gentile. Also, the bible makes it quite clear that God delights in the sabbath and that it is special to him. That being so, if it's special to Him, shouldn't it be special to us? Anyhow, as with all things in scripture it's really a matter of heart. If we don't find joy or delight in obeying any of the commandments than there's no point in doing them. If our hearts are not in it than it's just legalism........and we know how Jesus feels about legalism.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/6/2008 9:31:34 PM
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SpongeBlog
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quote:
ORIGINAL: LBolt
I hear you... Why then did the Greek use Sabbatismos and not katapausis, which actually means rest?
It's symbolic. A figure of speech, not a reference to the literal sabbath under the law. The word 'katapausis' (rest) is used repeatedly in the passage. The context of the whole passage is comparing the 'katapausis', or rest promised to the Israelites who came up out of Egypt with the promised 'katapausis' to those who believe the gospel of Christ:
"3Now we who have believed enter that rest..." (Heb. 4:3)
The Israelites could not enter their promised 'katapausis' (Canaan land) because of unbelief:
"16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief." (Heb. 3:16-19)
"...11Let us, therefore, make every effort to enter that rest, so that no one will fall by following their example of disobedience." (Heb. 4:11)
Is the author telling us we too will not enter into Canaan land because of unbelief? Of course not. He's speaking figuratively. And he calls the 'katapausis', the rest that one enters into today when they believe, 'sabbatismos' (the one time it appears in the NT), not sabbaton, the Greek word used for the sabbath day in every other reference to the sabbath day in the NT.
'Sabbatismos' is the masculine noun of the common neutered noun 'sabbaton', which is the Greek word used through out the rest of the NT for the actual Sabbath day. He uses 'sabbatismos' to drive home the figurative nature of Christ being our 'sabbath' rest. A rest that we will not be able to enter into for the same reason the Israelites were not able to enter into their rest--unbelief.
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ORIGINAL: LBolt
Why did Messiah teach soo much about Sabbath and how it is to be properly observed?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it's recorded that Jesus ever purposely discoursed on his own initiative about proper Sabbath keeping as the next order of business in his ministry of teaching people how they should live as children of God. On several occasions he was forced to defend his own actions on the Sabbath in response to the accustations of the Pharisees. I see what point you are trying to make, but there's no weight to your argument that 'Jesus taught much about proper Sabbath keeping, therefore it must be really important'. It came up when he was accused of breaking it. You don't have enough evidence, that I can think of, to defend your point.
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ORIGINAL: LBolt
Why would the author of Hebrews, writing to a people who were already saved, speak of entering God's rest, since, according to your understanding salvation is the Sabbath rest?
Why would the author want them, people already saved, to make every effort to enter "that rest" (salvation) when they've already entered the salvation rest?
It's clear from the passage that the author did not suppose he was talking to already saved people. His hope was that they would in fact be saved:
"12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first." (Heb. 3:12-14)
Feedback is usually pretty lacking on my posts, but don't you agree the author is not at all making the assumption all these people are saved, or at least were not in danger of falling away?
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ORIGINAL: LBolt
I think, like I was in your shoes a little over a year ago, you and many in "Christiandom" have the flawed view and defense for not keeping Sabbath. You are walking in the flawed traditions of those who broke frrom the Catholic Church but still hold to the traditions she introduced. What's killing, I provide quotes such this, "The Catholic Church...by virtue of her divine mission, changed the day from Saturday to Sunday...you may read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, and you will not find a single line authorizing the sanctification of Sunday. The scriptures enforce the religious observance of Saturday, a day which we never sanctify", and more of Catholic who admit that Sabbath to Sunday was their doing and you still want to defend broken doctrines.
You really have to open your mind up a little. I'm not catholic. I and others don't think Sunday is the new sabbath day. Saturday is the day called sabbath. Many, many people in my camp know this. The point you're not seeing is we are no longer bound by the requirements to congregate, and rest from specific personal labors in a predefined way on the day called sabbath.
I'm convinced that there is not one honest, serious christian alive who thinks we don't have to worship or praise God anymore, or meet with the brethren, or fast and pray at purposely set apart times as needed to seek the face of God, or enter into many other good and godly and useful disciplines. The thing you aren't getting is we don't have to do that anymore between the hours of 6pm on Friday and 6pm on Saturday! The blessing is in seeking the face of God, not in seeking him according to meaningless timetables and procedures.
There is no special blessing for the person who does his good and beneficial things between those hours of the week--things that we all do. I'm not going to be banished outside the gates of Jerusalem because I wouldn't perform the same disciplines of the faith you perform during the times established by the law. That is what is so utterly inane (senseless and silly) about the law keeping argument.
Those stipulations had their time and purpose. That time has passed. That is the argument I defend. Take the official declarations of the Catholic church up with them. I and others only defend the freedom they have from the restrictions of the OT worship laws. What they've done with that freedom is regrettable but it does not change the fact that we are free from the legislated restrictions on worship found in the OT law.
< Message edited by SpongeBlog -- 9/6/2008 9:42:58 PM >
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"For the kingdom of God is not a matter of eating and drinking, but of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, because anyone who serves Christ in this way is pleasing to God and approved by men." (Romans 14:17,18)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 6:37:09 PM
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LBolt
Posts: 954
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline
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Hey SB, judging frrom the verses you supplied and the text in Heb. 2, chapter 6, 10, it appears that this is not an evangelistic, convert sinners to Christ book. Especially see Chapter 6&10:32-39, were the author is writing to believers in Messiah, who are enduring trialsand tribulations. These were people who were already well versed in the Torah. I'm not OSAS in my theology...however the epistles, which some scholars attribute to Paul, believe this is a letter to reassure them in their faith in Christ and solidify the reality that Christ is better than...angels, Moses,the levitica priesthood, sacrifices etc.
My point being, they were not unsaved. He even admonished them to go on to maturity in Chapter 5:11-6, leaving the milk of the word. He even stated that they should been teachers. Certainly not a message you will give to the unsaved, IMO. In verse 10 of chapter 6, the author speaks of God not willing to forget their labor of love (ministry) to His name and the saints. Again these are attributes of born again believers.
The Sabbath command was given to Israel after being freed from Egyptian bondage. They were saved first, then given the Mitvah and instruction...We are saved first then given the instructions on how to live. I said all that to say that chapter 4's encouragement to keep the Sabbath as I understand it, is because they were already saved. Therefore, I must respectful disagree with your assessment of Hebrews 4.
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fast and pray at purposely set apart times as needed to seek the face of God
I don't know where we are told to fast and pray at set apart times...nobody here to my knowledge argues this. In fact this is part of what Paul discusses in Romans 14.
The scriptures you posted in your las thread, "...if we hold firmly until the end..." speaks of imo, of our remaining in Messiah. Now I know this get's OSAS...
My brother I still must humbly disagree with you, believe it or not, I actually enjoy reading your posts, as long as they are. You are very knowledgable and insightful, caring and sensitive. A well equipped minister of the salvation message of humanities need for a Saviour who has went to extraordinary lengths to redeem man from sin. Man, you would be dangerous if you really see just how beautiful Torah really is...you and alot of other folks.
I must go now, my football game is calling me, LOL! Take for now.
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Wisdom is the principle thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding...she shall give to thine head an ornament of grace..---Proverbs 4:7
www.tatepublishing.com/bookstore/book.php?w=978-1-60604-743-9
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 8:53:24 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2380
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: online
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Indeed, brother L, Torah is beautiful and thoroughly fascinating, but that dosn’t mean I ought to do all of it. To tell you more, I also consider "fire dancing", skydiving, human-machine Michael Phelps, Bengals wide receiver/ handsome bad boy Chad "Ocho Cinco" to be entirely fascinating, but i am not trying to do them!
Some coolest things/activities are better enjoyed without actually over-indulging to the point of fanaticism
But, my precious brothers from Lit.Torah camp, you seem to understand the concept of coldheaded approach to Torah, too  - you guys dont do things that in your opinion, are against common sense, or are too inerfering with the comfortable lifestyle. You do some "Torah moderating" as well.
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Elohim is able to make all grace abound. Just like we did on Sunday service if we had a work conflict, we would pray and ask that our schedule be adjusted so that we can have the day off or at least work a different shift.
yes,but if you, God forbid (or your dear little ones or Mrs.L ) get sick or need some other urgent help who is going to save your sorry donkey?
The one that didn’t weasel out with a different shift but actually worked on that Sabbath.
And we both agree that he pleases God just as much as the one who spends Sab. just bumming around.
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Proverbs XI:14 Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 9/7/2008 9:12:44 PM
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Odeliya
Posts: 2380
Joined: 8/10/2005
Status: online
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Dear L and BT, i truly respect and appreciate your accounts about S keeping,and sincerely believe that you are the kind of people for whom it truly is a beautiful ceremony. God bless you richly and lead you always. It is very nice that you , BT, offer your home as, basically, beit knesset, and God be with your congregation.
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It is not that there are no requirements, it is just that Scripture gives us very little detail and a few examples. This is why I am confused as to why some are so opposed to keeping Shabbat.
I am as well confused as to why some are so insistent that people lounging around and getting together for some torah study/worship are more pleasing to God then those who do it on Sund, Mond, Tues or any time 2 or 3 "are gathered in My name"
I am not opposed to keeping Sabbath your way , honestly, brothers. For whom it works and brings them closer to God this way,great. There are some SK that are better Christians then I ever will be.But to me personally that view and that road is lowered expectations of what the Sabbath is and how to spend it;t wouldn't make me more Christ-like. All the monumental amount of evidence suggests that keeping Sabbath doesn’t make majority of participating in it people to love or please God more. Modern state of Israel. Enough said.
Again – I don’t deny it works for some and would never, ever discourage, to the contrary, i
would encourage people for whom it works to continue in the congregation and in the manner they chose.
But as a general rule, for majority, I don’t recommend it | | |
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