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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2005 4:42:37 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1872
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: BrotherEldon
Hello Larry,
I worship God on Sunday also, I would urge you to do so also. Sin is the trangression of the Law. There is no law that states men should not worship on Sunday.
The early Church [second-third century] Assembled on Wednesday and Friday [both were fast days], and On Sabbath and Sunday [sunday being a day to indulge the flesh after service]...
It is neither sin to worship on Sunday, or not to worship on Sunday. What would be 'sin' is for us to trample upon a day that is blessed, hallowed and sanctified as God's personal holy day, after God commands us to "Keep it holy".. Notice the term "KEEP",, it was made holy in the garden, and we are to "keep" it set a part... Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, ..etc was not "Made Holy" and thus they cannot be "Kept" holy.
But, scripture tells us that that we do not have to keep one day above another.
quote:
You may say the 10 Commandments do not speak to you as a New Covenant Christian,,, but they most certainly do. Paul quotes them as an Authorative Document to the Ephesians:
First. I didn't say that. But, it is true that we are not under the Old Covenant. The Old Covenant outlines moral guidelines but we are not under its penalty. It doesn't differentiate between keeping the levitical sacrifices and keeping the 10 commandments. That is an artificial division, IMHO.
A number of 7th Day Adventists (I have no idea what your particular affliation is ) have attempted to incorporate the OT dietary regulations into their lives. In that note, they are at least attempting to be consistent, even though I disagree with them.
quote:
quote:
You may say, "Only Jews were required to keep Sabbath"..
But again this is not biblical... GOD requires ALL that love him to observe his holy day:
Isaiah 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger [gentiles], that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Gentile proselytes within the land of Israel. I am a little puzzled that you would attempt to use that scripture. You're kinda haphazard in your applications.
quote:
As far as "Worship" on Sabbath it is a matter of history that the early Church continued the Apostolic tradition of keeping Sabbath even until the fourth century. Not to be confrontational, but you didn't really answer my point.
Still waiting for something a little more substantial. Not to say you're necessarily wrong, of course.
quote:
Why wouldn't they? Since GOD never unblessed, unhallowed, or unsanctified it? Surely his commandments stand fast forever and ever, and done in truth and uprightness.
Sabbath Blessings
Bro. Eldon
Actually, all days are blessed. He never unblessed nor unhallowed it because all days are blessed. (Romans 14:5)
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2005 4:52:51 PM
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GrahamCracker
Posts: 1872
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: Dallas, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Seventh Day Advocate
you're being very specific there I think GC...It's not sunday worship that is sinful, it's the knowledge of the true day and then not following it that is sinful. This goes for every sin, if you know that hurting someone is wrong yet you do it anyways you are sinning.
I suppose then that you would say that "sins of ignorance" are not sins at all. That's a minor tangent, but if it were as important as you say, I simply could not agree.
quote:
And your third point is not entirely true, at least the way you say it makes me feel like those who practice sunday worship can't please God. I don't want anyone to think that any sabbath keeper would preach that fact.
They have in the Crosswalk forums. We've had some discussions along that line.
quote:
I do believe however in that one aspect you aren't pleasing God. You can note that those who are saturday worshippers "tend" to be legalistic but also note that that fact is not true on a whole and that legalism is obviously wrong. This is not a personal attack but, I'm sorry if you don't appreciate the implication that you are out of the will of God but there's no "nice" way to say it. If you believe that your friends drug usage is wrong, it would be wrong of you not to alert them to this fact. Whether it implies that they are doing something foolish or not.
I phrased it vaguely and broadly for a reason. To make any such suggestions along those lines regarding a particular person skirts the the CW regulations regarding "giving unsolicited spiritual counsel." I would kindly suggest you keep that rule in mind in the future. I can't say exactly where the Admin would come down on your suggestion that I might be sinning, but I think they would consider it a violation.
I did not intentionally bait you into doing so and would not do so.
In any event, it has been my experience that the Seventh Day Adventist groups posting here have been VERY legalistic. You may doubt me, but I am serious.
_____________________________
Larry
Sure we're under the law, everybody knows that!
When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear. (Heb 10:13)
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2005 5:14:06 PM
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bobservations
Posts: 921
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You all make the same case, use the same scriptures and refute us the same way.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/17/2005 8:33:01 PM
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SugarReinz
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It seems to me that SDAs and Messianic Jews/Gentiles are very different in where they stand. I haven't been an SDA like you have, and neither a Messianic yet but have looked into both of them. Seems that the SDAs follow EGW who gave things to keep and such and then the Messianics follow "Yeshua" because He is the Master of all and kept the Torah. If He is such a great example, why not follow Him?
ahg maybe I said all of that wrong...or just don't know what I am talking about.....nevermind.
_____________________________
Shema Isra'el Adonai Eloheinu Adonai Echad!
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2005 10:12:36 AM
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gambit
Posts: 1214
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quote:
ORIGINAL: bobservations
You all make the same case, use the same scriptures and refute us the same way.
How true. Whether one is an SDA or not, insisting that Gentiles are required to keep a sabbath day goes against the teachings in the New Testament. Many scriptures have been posted to prove that we are not under law or required to observe Mosiac rituals under the new covenant. If one decides to keep the seventh day, I have no problem with that. It's when people who attend a Sunday service are condemned by those who feels we are being disobedient to God is where I draw the line.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2005 10:16:56 AM
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Chief
Posts: 104
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gambit
quote:
ORIGINAL: bobservations
You all make the same case, use the same scriptures and refute us the same way.
How true. Whether one is an SDA or not, insisting that Gentiles are required to keep a sabbath day goes against the teachings in the New Testament.
What teachings are those, gambit?
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2005 11:22:59 AM
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gambit
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Colossians 2:16.
"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration, OR A SABBATH DAY".
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2005 11:25:41 AM
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Chief
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What about it?
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2005 11:33:09 AM
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a-lily
Posts: 60
Joined: 5/15/2005
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quote:
How true. Whether one is an SDA or not, insisting that Gentiles are required to keep a sabbath day goes against the teachings in the New Testament. Many scriptures have been posted to prove that we are not under law or required to observe Mosiac rituals under the new covenant. If one decides to keep the seventh day, I have no problem with that. It's when people who attend a Sunday service are condemned by those who feels we are being disobedient to God is where I draw the line.
Just because someone has a conviction, (in this case that Sabbath is still for all believers), and that someone make statements about their convictions on a forum for that purpose, does not mean that that person is condemning others for not do it.
Condemnation is a serious thing, to condemn someone is to say ‘you are going to Hell’, no one here for or against Sabbath has made no such statements.
I believe Sabbath is a gift and a blessing and I want to share that with my brothers and sisters in Christ. I don't judge others eternity by whether or not they keep the Sabbath that is the Lords job. So you are drawing a line where one is not needed.
No one has spoken of Sunday Keeper judging the Sabbath Keeper. (mind you I do not mean this personally, just trying to make a point) I have been called many things by Sunday Keepers since keeping the Sabbath all of it negative...a cult...heretical...being lead away by Satan, and the all time classic...legalist. Yet no one can show me in Scripture where Sabbath was changed to sunday! No one will give and answer to the statement made by the Master Himself in Matthew 5 :17:
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Don’t bother responding to this post if your going to cop out and not address this verse. And I mean all the way to verse 20. 
Sorry if this sounds harsh but this is a forum for discussing the what the Word says about Sabbath not for folks making judgments calls on whether or not, another is condemning someone else by their faith.
I am sure we all have beliefs that although we do not judge another’s eternity by them we strongly feel they are from God and that we should teach them to others.
One more thing…I am not a SDA, I am Messianic. I do not follow the prophets of SDA. I follow Yeshua. To call us the same is like a Muslim who worship on fridays assuming that Catholics and Protestants are the same thing because they all worship on Sunday. 
Shalom
Lily
_____________________________
"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." -Jesus Matthew 5 : 18
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2005 1:04:25 PM
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Chief
Posts: 104
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gambit
Colossians 2:16.
"Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration, OR A SABBATH DAY".
The correct reading of the verse is: “So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or SABBATHS, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.”
The verse points to the ceremonial annexes of the 4th commandments not the 4th commandment itself. The immediate context is clear about them - food, drinks, festivals and new moon. Plus the word "shadow" is also indicative of it.
Since Christ is the substance so the shadow must have passed. And if the Law all of it, including the moral law, has passed therefore there is no more need for Paul or Peter to exhort believers to avoid any form of sin especially those that are under the decalogue, namely, adultery, fornication, lust, hate, lying stealing, dishonoring parents, etc.
These perfectly indicate that the temporary such as the religious and ceremonial laws that were annexed to the Moral Law(till Christ initiated the new covenants) are done away with. It is indicative of the jewish festivals and annual sabbaths not the principles of labor, rest and worship.
< Message edited by Chief -- 7/18/2005 1:45:31 PM >
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2005 1:27:43 PM
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gambit
Posts: 1214
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The correct reading? I guess the NIV Bible is wrong then.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2005 1:45:10 PM
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Fritzpw_Admin
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ADMIN'S NOTE :: ATTENTION PLEASE
To be clear... those who claim that anyone who does not observe the sabbath on Satureday are somehow out of the will of God will be considered to be violating the Terms of Service.
There is a nicer way to say this... but I'll be clear. Those making this claim may be banned from this topic or entirely from the Community.
Please do not reply to this message within the Community.
Please email Community@salemwebnetwork.com with questions, comments, or concerns.
Please do not send me PMs regarding this message.
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Fritz
Senior Manager of Social Media
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Want to see my latest online project? Check out http://budurl.com/CWonFacebook
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2005 2:11:58 PM
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Chief
Posts: 104
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gambit
The correct reading? I guess the NIV Bible is wrong then.
Not a problem even if it said that it follows "A" new moon and "A" festival.
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2005 2:48:10 PM
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rockv12
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John 14:15. "If you love Me, keep My commandments." Question....which commandments was Jesus referring to that we are to keep? If we can figure this out, we can figure this whole debate out.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2005 3:09:25 PM
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lss44
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Maybe this has been brought up...what about a church that has both Saturday and Sunday worship services? Are the people in the church split between who is doing it the right way and who is doing it the wrong way. I think not.
We who are believers are to worship our Heavenly Father every day.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2005 3:38:25 PM
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gambit
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Do you think the King James version is inspired/infallible?
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2005 3:40:17 PM
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gambit
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quote:
ORIGINAL: rockv12
John 14:15. "If you love Me, keep My commandments." Question....which commandments was Jesus referring to that we are to keep? If we can figure this out, we can figure this whole debate out.
Again, where did Jesus actually command his followers to obey the sabbath?
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2005 3:56:16 PM
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rockv12
Posts: 62
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gambit
quote:
ORIGINAL: rockv12
John 14:15. "If you love Me, keep My commandments." Question....which commandments was Jesus referring to that we are to keep? If we can figure this out, we can figure this whole debate out.
Again, where did Jesus actually command his followers to obey the sabbath?
1 Peter 2:21 says that we are to follow in Christ's steps. Christ kept the Sabbath. If Jesus did it as an example for all Christians to follow, then why wouldn't we also think it important?
Luke 18:20 Jesus tells the man who asked Him how to inherit eternal life to keep the commandments. He refers to the Ten Commandments. Hmmm....
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2005 4:07:18 PM
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gambit
Posts: 1214
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Because Jesus was under the law at that time.
As for Luke 18:20...You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.
Hmmm, no mention of sabbath keeping here.
Also, read on to verse 22:
When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
Notice that the ten commandments weren't enough as he still lacked one thing?
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2005 4:52:00 PM
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a-lily
Posts: 60
Joined: 5/15/2005
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quote:
Again, where did Jesus actually command his followers to obey the sabbath?
At Creation. "And God (Jesus) blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it He (Jesus) rested from all the work of creating that He (Jesus) had done." Genesis 2 : 2
John ch 1
"in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Wrod was God. Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made."
Jesus Himself states many times that He and the Father are one. that He can say nothing but what the Father tells Him.
God is the same yesterday, today and forever...He does not change.
And Jesus said....
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5 :17-20
_____________________________
"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." -Jesus Matthew 5 : 18
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2005 5:05:30 PM
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gambit
Posts: 1214
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There's no record of anyone keeping the sabbath prior to the Mosiac covenant.
Noah built the ark without any mention of resting on the seventh day.
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2005 5:34:53 PM
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Chief
Posts: 104
Joined: 4/12/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: gambit
Because Jesus was under the law at that time.
As for Luke 18:20...You know the commandments: 'Do not commit adultery, do not murder, do not steal, do not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.
Hmmm, no mention of sabbath keeping here.
Also, read on to verse 22:
When Jesus heard this, he said to him, "You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
Notice that the ten commandments weren't enough as he still lacked one thing?
Gambit, Jesus did the 5th to 9th commandments. He did not mention the first to fourth and the tenth. Besides this was a lesson of righteousness as the rich man supposed he had that is why Jesus told him he was lacking something...and it was his love for money that was exposed. The one thing wrong about his reaction was that he did not asked what must he do after knowing of his shortcomings. It is also a lesson of the sufficiency of Christ.
Anyway, if you must talk about being under the law, the apostles talk about the commandments as if they were still "under" the law if you must insist it that way. In fact they are not short in saying that if we are believers the law must not be far from us...even close to their heart as they pursue holines and that sin is nothing but a transgression of the law.
1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.
Eph 5:11 And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.
Heb 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
1Pe 1:16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.
1Ti 1:8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
1Jo 5:3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
no different from...
Ps 119:97 O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.
Ps 119:113 I hate vain thoughts: but thy law do I love.
Ps 119:163 I hate and abhor lying: but thy law do I love.
Ps 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.
< Message edited by Chief -- 7/18/2005 7:37:47 PM >
_____________________________
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.- Saul of Tarsus
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RE: Sabbath - One Stop Thread - 7/18/2005 5:54:20 PM
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a-lily
Posts: 60
Joined: 5/15/2005
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quote:
There's no record of anyone keeping the sabbath prior to the Mosiac covenant.
Noah built the ark without any mention of resting on the seventh day.
This was before the Law was given...besides Jesus, who is God, gave the Law to Moses.
" He said to them, "This is what the LORD commanded: 'Tomorrow is to be a day of rest, a holy Sabbath to the LORD. So bake what you want to bake and boil what you want to boil. Save whatever is left and keep it until morning.'' Exodus 16 :23
_____________________________
"I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." -Jesus Matthew 5 : 18
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or the commandments He gave in a certain "dispensation" because He changed His mind on the other ones... 