RE: When breast WASN'T best (Full Version)

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Mrs.Wifey -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/24/2007 4:56:24 PM)

I don't think I would call them "Nazi's" but the LLL certainly wasn't very kind to me[&:] The one woman I spoke to told me that I should never have allowed Gabby to have formula and that I should have used a Supplemental Nursing System. Sure, I could have but that wasn't the first thing on my mind when I was dealing with a baby in the NICU and the thought of IV's and blood transfusions was enough to make a pp woman very emotionally unstable.



Mrs.Wifey -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/24/2007 4:59:03 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sideways

quote:

ORIGINAL: ChelseaRae
I don't think a lot of those moms know that supply is directly related to how much their babies nurse, they don't realize that to get more milk they have to let their babies nurse more.


I think one woman on this thread has already said that if she had a dime for every time she was told to "just nurse more" - she'd be able to pay for all her formula. [8D]

When my son was nursing every 90 minutes, and I finally broke down and fed him cereal - I had everyone telling me "just let him nurse longer on one breast to get the hind milk". Uhm... it's not like I was pulling him off the breast, in fact I was doing every thing I could just to keep him nursing longer at each sitting. Or "he's cluster feeding to increase your supply" ... for 3 weeks????

I still breast feed, but thank goodness we're having solids now (except when he's sick). I don't think I need to be super mom, BFing every 90 minutes to prove how much I love my son.

quote:

We understood what real "support' means. It doesn't mean presumming to "educated" and provide enough "correct information" until everyone choses to parent just like you.


*snort* I know you weren't trying to be funny, but I giggled. [;)]


I don't think Chelsea meant that[;)] What I *think* she meant was that woman commonly think their newborn isn't getting enough milk and so they give them formula. It works ok for some woman, but for others the lack of breast stimulation can lead to supply issues. How much you nurse or pump in the beginning is a big factor in how your milk supply comes in.



Auben -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/24/2007 5:30:33 PM)

quote:

I think what ticks some women off, is the implication that they weren't committed enough if they did try BFing and it didn't work out.


This is very much how I felt. That and the conclusions jump that I'm not educated because I didn't succeed.


I have to admit that I have ticked people off on this site because I've gone into bfing threads (I was bfing at the time in my own way) and talked about how LLL and many strident bfers have alienated women with problems because they can't accept 'failure.' Rather than getting to know women and helping them deal with their problems, they target first time mothers with mantras about how natural and simple breastfeeding is.

In order to truly make bfing common I think they really need to retool the way they deal with people.

It reminds me of a few Christians I know. They'd rather preach then raise up the disciples they already have.



10SNE1? -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/24/2007 5:47:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2


it is against the TOS to refer to someone as a "Nazi" just because in your opinion they were strong in their desire to bf.


No, actually it appears to be a TOS to use that word at all. Must be a relatively new one because I honestly didn't know that. Sorry to anyone who was truly offended by the word itself. Anyway, my opinion of those women has nothing to do with "their desire to bf" and everything to do with the horrible way they treated young mothers who didn't chose to follow their playbook for the "art" of mothering.

There is actually a word which perfectly sums up their behavior but I know that one is a big no-no [:D]



Kath -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/24/2007 6:02:12 PM)

quote:

No, actually it appears to be a TOS to use that word at all. Must be a relatively new one because I honestly didn't know that.


TOS 5 states:Referring to someone as a Nazi or their statements as being fascist is in violation of this rule.

It doesn't say one cannot use the word at all or how could one discuss WW2?

The rule has been there as long as I've been a member (1999)

ETA to clarify: one can call LLL Nazi but one cannot call one our members a Nazi or imply they have Nazi like tendencies in their approach to BF



10SNE1? -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/24/2007 6:02:17 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Auben

quote:

I think what ticks some women off, is the implication that they weren't committed enough if they did try BFing and it didn't work out.


This is very much how I felt. That and the conclusions jump that I'm not educated because I didn't succeed.


I have to admit that I have ticked people off on this site because I've gone into bfing threads (I was bfing at the time in my own way) and talked about how LLL and many strident bfers have alienated women with problems because they can't accept 'failure.' Rather than getting to know women and helping them deal with their problems, they target first time mothers with mantras about how natural and simple breastfeeding is.

In order to truly make bfing common I think they really need to retool the way they deal with people.

It reminds me of a few Christians I know. They'd rather preach then raise up the disciples they already have.


This is why it is so important for older, experienced mothers to reach out to new moms. We understand that there are many ways to truly "fail" your child, but giving a baby a bottle just isn't one of them. We have perspective! I do firmly believe that it is only because we 40 and 50-something ladies have been too self-centered that the younger moms have lost a valuable resource. The older, more experienced mother who doesn't have the emotional entanglement of being the grandma can do so much to reassure a first time mommy. While there is certainly a need for friendship and support from ladies who are right there with you in the baby/toddler years it is important to remember that women by nature have a vested emotional interest in promoting their own mothering choices as "the best".



peculiar_lady2 -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/24/2007 6:14:42 PM)

quote:

Or "he's cluster feeding to increase your supply" ... for 3 weeks????
actually that is very common...3-5 weeks is about average for cluster feeding or to increase your supply to better fir the baby's needs.

quote:

What I *think* she meant was that woman commonly think their newborn isn't getting enough milk and so they give them formula. It works ok for some woman, but for others the lack of breast stimulation can lead to supply issues. How much you nurse or pump in the beginning is a big factor in how your milk supply comes in.

yeah that's how I took it to mean too.

quote:

I have to admit that I have ticked people off on this site because I've gone into bfing threads (I was bfing at the time in my own way) and talked about how LLL and many strident bfers have alienated women with problems because they can't accept 'failure.' Rather than getting to know women and helping them deal with their problems, they target first time mothers with mantras about how natural and simple breastfeeding is.

the only real experience I have had with LLL is a man that I used to know when I was pregnant with our first baby...a friend of my parents...he was associated with the LLL and was one of the most knowledgeable men (or people in general ) I have ever met when it came to BFing...but he was never overbearing with what he said...and he never just told you that you were wrong...he helped to educate you on the workings of your own body. Not everyone's body works the same...and every baby will be different too...so you have to take both into account when talking about BFing


the most annoying bfing experience I have run into was in the hospital when I had my fourth child. I basically had to threaten to leave the hospital for them to bring my child to me so I could nurse him. they wouldn't even let us in where he was. No medical issues...perfectly healthy baby...yet they wanted to be mean, so they were. If I had been a new mother with no experience I can imagine that it would have totally turned me off to bfing...but luckily I wasn't. What it did do was totally turn me off to the staff at that hospital.



Sideways -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/24/2007 7:00:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2

quote:

Or "he's cluster feeding to increase your supply" ... for 3 weeks????
actually that is very common...3-5 weeks is about average for cluster feeding or to increase your supply to better fir the baby's needs.


Allright, but what happens when you "educate" someone that it is common for them to need to BF every 90 minutes for 5 weeks, and they decided they just can't handle that? So they introduce cereal or a bottle.

I remember WOF telling me that Nathan's cluster feeding was normal too, but I went as far as I could, and then introduced cereal. Introducing solids probably preserved our BFing relationship, and he still nurses 6-8 times a day at 7 months (tomorrow).

Education is great, but it is completely different then supporting a mother... in however she decides to feed her baby. Sometimes a woman is educated, but she goes as far as she emotionally and physically can, and then decides that she needs a little outside help. And that's perfectly okay.



peculiar_lady2 -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/24/2007 7:11:42 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: Sideways

quote:

ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2

quote:

Or "he's cluster feeding to increase your supply" ... for 3 weeks????
actually that is very common...3-5 weeks is about average for cluster feeding or to increase your supply to better fir the baby's needs.


Allright, but what happens when you "educate" someone that it is common for them to need to BF every 90 minutes for 5 weeks, and they decided they just can't handle that? So they introduce cereal or a bottle.

first of all I don't "educate" someone unless they ask for help. I speak more about it on these boards then I ever have IRL. If someone asks then I will be glad to encourage them in what they need encouraging with. I have been there with a baby that fed every two hours for an hour each feed...for nine whole months. It was a pain. And yes, we did start solids early with him. That's what worked for his body...it's what he needed...and we didn't have a problem with it (and still don't with the decision we made).
As far as introducing a bottle into the mix, the only problem I have with that is when people want to BF but aren't knowledgeable about how to do it the right way and still have a bottle (or two) a day. The key is to not let your supply dwindle...you have to be organized with the timing of that bottle. Otherwise your body and baby's body could easily get out of sync and it could hurt your supply. Like I said, our fourth is the first we didn't have to do a bottle of juice with every day so that they would poop...but we had to have strict "rules" about when that bottle was given and by whom so that it didn't affect my supply.
Knowing your own boundaries is the key. When you can't handle it and you don't have someone else to lean on for help...and as long as you make an educated decision to change to how it works for you, then that's fine with me. My problem (and many others have said this too) is when the wrong information is given or when someone gets mean about things.

As far as being able to handle it...I have severe PPD after all of mine, but for me it's easier to stick with bfing during that time. For me it helps. For others it might not though.



nicole6598 -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/24/2007 7:25:11 PM)

with my depression bfing did not help so we used the bottle to give me some time out. so for grace breast was not best due to my depression but with nathaniel breast is just dandy at the moment :)



Krislynx -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/24/2007 8:56:55 PM)

excerpted from peculiar_lady2:
the most annoying bfing experience I have run into was in the hospital when I had my fourth child. I basically had to threaten to leave the hospital for them to bring my child to me so I could nurse him. they wouldn't even let us in where he was. No medical issues...perfectly healthy baby...yet they wanted to be mean, so they were. If I had been a new mother with no experience I can imagine that it would have totally turned me off to bfing...but luckily I wasn't. What it did do was totally turn me off to the staff at that hospital. [/color]
[/quote]

How could they do that? I know, OT so moving on. I pump exclusively for my son who is 4 months old. We used formula for the first 10 days or so in conjunction with bottle feeding breast milk. The only way I stuck with the pumping was the ability to fall back on the formula when I ran out. We had major issues in the beginning with latch on and my being able to pump enough colostrum/transitional milk to keep him happy. I tried everything the LCs suggested, EXCEPT get his tongue tie (extremely minor) clipped. Once I refused to do that, no one wanted to help me anymore. The problem was that they wanted me to make the decision in about 30 minutes on a Fri. afternoon so we could get one particular doctor to do it. Mind you I was on major pain meds due to a c-section on Wed. morning. The attitude quickly became "well if you want to give him formula don't ask me to help you." Now there were other LCs that worked in the hospital but I did not get a chance to talk with them all (most don't work weekends). I really wanted to know how to use formula and the pump together in order to get us through a rough patch without endangering my milk supply and they would not accept it. I actually overheard one say I wouldn't make it a week. Well, HAHA! It was extremely discouraging and disrespectful for her to say that IMO. She wasn't listening to her baby cry in hunger. Or trying to nurse a 2 day old who would put his tiny hands on either side of Mommy's nipple and push it away from his mouth. As someone else already said it is funny now, but devastating then.

I know that was rambling (and venting) so I will try to sum up what I meant by all of that. First, I truly empathize with those of you who struggled with breastfeeding and went with formula. If Mark (husband) did not work from home (he did a lot of double duty those 10 days so I could pump every 2 hours) or the tide had not turned relatively quickly I may not have chosen to continue either. Second, I also agree that there is not enough good, accurate information out there that is offered in a respectful manner. So based on my experiences I would always encourage a woman to breastfeed if possible but I would never try to belittle her decisions or her experiences/difficulties (not suggesting anyone here is doing that). Sorry if this went too far from topic.

Kris



Mrs.X -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/25/2007 2:19:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sideways
I had everyone telling me "just let him nurse longer on one breast to get the hind milk". Uhm... it's not like I was pulling him off the breast, in fact I was doing every thing I could just to keep him nursing longer at each sitting.

I so know what you mean. Timmy was like, "If it's not coming out fast, then I don't want it, and I'll scream until it comes out faster." He just wouldn't stay on if it wasn't coming out fast like during letdown.



Sideways -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/25/2007 8:34:15 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Krislynx
I really wanted to know how to use formula and the pump together in order to get us through a rough patch without endangering my milk supply and they would not accept it. I actually overheard one say I wouldn't make it a week. Well, HAHA! It was extremely discouraging and disrespectful for her to say that IMO. She wasn't listening to her baby cry in hunger. Or trying to nurse a 2 day old who would put his tiny hands on either side of Mommy's nipple and push it away from his mouth. As someone else already said it is funny now, but devastating then.


Yeah, the screaming in hunger bit pretty much cancels out any preaching a new mom might've gotten before she actually had a baby. I gave my newborn a few cc's of formula in the early days to take the edge off his hunger before switching to breast - it saved us.

I know that some women in extreme cases have had their BFing relationship ruined by a single bottle of formula, but my gut tells me that is the exception rather then the rule.

I wonder if we worked with new moms with a bit more flexibility concerning formula/BFing being done together - instead of "nothing but the breast from birth to six months no matter how much they scream or how little sleep you get" - would more women be willing to BF? At least partially?

And yes, I watched my two nieces reject the breast because their mother was supplementing, but that was over a period of months with increasingly more formula and less breast milk. Maybe with better support/information she could've turned that around, but I know wasn't going to do breast only from birth, cause her baby was really small, and she was scared.

There has to be a middle ground in this. BFing seems so overwhelming and stressful to a lot of new moms, and even in picture perfect cases - it's still really hard!



Roberta_ -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/25/2007 8:52:05 AM)

I loved bfing! I encourage it.

However, I do want to add that "it is not the be all end all of motherhood."

[rant]I have a friend who has triplets who are now 5. She attempted to bf for about a week. When she decided that it was too much, she switched to formula. Her sister gave her a lot of grief over that decision. [&o]
She is 45 and just finishing her first trimester of this pregnancy. She has had several miscarriages since having the boys. She's concerned about being able to carry the baby to term (and has drs. telling her that at her age and with her history of late second trimester miscarriages she'd be better off aborting) and already has her sister on her back telling her that she needs to bf.
I just want to shake that sister of hers! All I can think it if she'd put all that effort into helping ensure this little one arrives via prayer and support she'd be doing her sister and her niece or nephew the biggest favor of all. My goodness, let the precious little one be born first!

[/rant]



10SNE1? -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/25/2007 9:12:20 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sideways



I wonder if we worked with new moms with a bit more flexibility concerning formula/BFing being done together - instead of "nothing but the breast from birth to six months no matter how much they scream or how little sleep you get" - would more women be willing to BF? At least partially?



I totally agree with this! The evidence is overwhelming that even a few days of bfig is better than none so why not just help moms get though it one day at a day, doing whatever is needed to get baby has much breast milk as possible?

I really don't care if you want to keep nursing beyond the first year but, imo, the LAST thing an exhausted new mother needs to be told is about the "joys" ( and supposed benefits/need ) of nursing a walking, talking toddler or that the smallest drop of formula means her breast feeding efforts are doomed. [&:] Why wouldn't she just put herself and her baby out of their misery and start the bottle now?

You are always going to have "those people" who want to tell you that their personal parenting choice is the only "God-honoring" way, whether the issue is feeding, schooling, birth control or Halloween.

My big issue with this one is that it is the group which has managed to position itself as the ultimate, end-all and be-all of advice on the matter which seems to do women the most harm.



peculiar_lady2 -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/25/2007 9:41:34 AM)

just wanted to share a pic with you all...
one of the most precious pics to me of our first born son was taken while I was in a six hour coma after giving birth. It is of my hubby feeding our son. HERE. I was told the same thing about that bfing wouldn't work because of those first few precious hours...lol...yeah right. It worked...until I got pregnant again.



Sideways -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/25/2007 9:45:09 AM)

Mmm, I remember being scared that because I had a c-section I wouldn't be able to BF, or that I would have a lot of trouble. (Because of "must BF in the first hour" plus recovering from a section, blah, blah, blah)

That's a sweet picture, Sarah. I'm so glad everything worked out for you.



peace77 -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/25/2007 11:06:28 AM)

I went to La Leche League meetings while I was pregnant and planned to bf for as long as possible.
Bf went well until my son started vomiting. When I complained to the pediatrician, he told me that it was not vomiting. He said my baby was spitting up and I didn't know the difference because I was a new Mom.

When DS vomited what looked like used coffee grounds, I took him to the doctor on call that Sunday. That doctor told us to give him soy formula.
We did but DS wouldn't have any of it. XH tried it and said it tasted terrible.

Two days later at 11 weeks old, DS was admitted to the hospital in kidney failure. BFing had to stop while he had surgery. He never ate again after that day but during the surgery was given a stomach tube and was fed that way. I pumped for awhile and gave him that through the tube but it became difficult to continue and it was more important that I was with him than stuck in the pump room. Also, the doctors told me that my milk had too much protein for him. They told me that he needed a special low protein formula.

I didn't feel guilty and no one said anything negative about stopping the bfing at all. After all, everyone could see he wasn't taking a bottle either.

I'm sorry to hear that some have had negative experiences with LLL. They were all very nice to me. I suppose like any very large group, there are always a few bad apples in the bunch.


Peace,
Anne



ChelseaRae -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/25/2007 2:02:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: peculiar_lady2

quote:

What I *think* she meant was that woman commonly think their newborn isn't getting enough milk and so they give them formula. It works ok for some woman, but for others the lack of breast stimulation can lead to supply issues. How much you nurse or pump in the beginning is a big factor in how your milk supply comes in.

yeah that's how I took it to mean too.


Oh good, that is what I meant. I know all too well that it isn't true for all babies, for Mary's first four months I nursed her every 45 minutes during the day, she is up to every hour/hour and a half or so now when we are at home and goes longer when we are out. Thanks Ryanne for clarifying for me[8|]


Sarah, that is such a sweet picture, I love watching new dads with their babies!!



Krislynx -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/25/2007 5:01:44 PM)

Sarah, that picture is so sweet and adorable. Is Jacob's nickname Jake?

I had a c-section and was able to nurse Bug about 1.5 hours afterwards while I was in the recovery room. Mark asked me before the c-section what I wanted to do concerning BFing right away because he knows that pain meds (I had an epidural so it wasn't even like I had to deal with general anesthesia) make me very fuzzy. The only fully coherent thought I can remember having during that first nursing session (one of only two that went well) other than"wow, I can really do this" is "Mark stand right there - I am afraid I will drop the baby". There was no way, the nurse tucked him in really well plus the guard rail etc. So I did the "right thing" and nursed him right away and things still did not work out right. There really is no magic way to make BFing work for everyone. New moms (especially first timers) really need support and cooperation. As far as wanting to be with your baby while he was in the NICU instead of pumping somewhere else I would totally agree. I think they should have the NICU set up so you can pump at your baby's side. Now the only NICU I have ever been in was Beth Israel in Boston and my nephew had his own room with space for Mom or Dad to stay with him, so maybe that is not always possible due to space or concerns about hygiene.

Kris



Mrs.Wifey -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/25/2007 5:11:06 PM)

The NICU Gabby was in(St.Joseph's in Denver) was wonderful! They had pumps in the NICU so I didn't have to rent one(it was before I bought mine) and I could either pump next to her isolet or in the family room. If I pumped or nursed next to her Isolet then they brought out a screen so that I could have some privacy. The nurses and LC's were wonderful to us!



peculiar_lady2 -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/25/2007 5:52:41 PM)

quote:

Is Jacob's nickname Jake?

yeah....Jacob/Jake...and Jackson/Jack. We interchange them all the time and call them both either name.

that sounds great Ryanne.



Krislynx -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/26/2007 12:00:25 AM)

Ryanne, I am sorry your little one had to spend time in the NICU and I am glad you were able to stay with your baby and still pump. I should have been more clear in my earlier post - I am pretty sure my SIL could have pumped in my nephew's room, but she had planned to use formula from the beginning. And from what we saw (he was only there a couple of days and we only visited once) the nurses and staff were great.

Kris



locomom -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/26/2007 3:42:49 PM)

I was educated, and I chose to bottle feed. I considered what was best for both of us as a pair. When I was pregnant, I went to church with a CNM who was militant about breast feeding to the point that she would attack a stranger's choices in public. Qualifications or not, her behavior was obnoxious. I did get tired of all those messages on everything about breast feeding, but I know bottle feeding is not a crime.

I had a problem in the hospital because the "experts" know that bottle fed babies don't need to be fed more than every 4 hours. So I was up in the middle of the night after having her at 4 P.M. with a screaming baby who was hungry. I left the hospital at 2 p.m. the next day, grateful that I didn't have to put up with "experts" any more. When we got home my daughter feed more often than every 4 hours. That lasted through her early teen years. She will be 20 next year and still eats 4-6 times a day! She had a huge appetite for many years. She is petite with a very high metabolism. It runs in my husband's mother's family. So I guess I'm still waiting for the every 4 hours.



LaurainAL -> RE: When breast WASN'T best (10/26/2007 3:52:34 PM)

quote:

I went to church with a CNM who was militant about breast feeding to the point that she would attack a stranger's choices in public.


When my SIL's first was a baby, she was accousted by a militant at the mall. The lady noticed that SIL was feeding nephew a bottled and told her that she should be breastfeeding, yada yada yada... to a complete stranger.[8D]



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