RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (Full Version)

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JimboFletch -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (10/31/2007 10:34:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkeigley

quote:

Anyway, I think we can all agree that Hagee is truly speaking heresy, correct?


Agreed.

I think if we fully understood the "Olive Tree Theology" (Romans 9-11)
We would find we all have "some" truth, but we're mostly wrong,
as Adam pointed out. It {IS} and it {ISN'T}.

No wonder we have so much confusion. LOL.

Hagee has been in error for some time even before the latest ride he's on.

If you think about it, Satan himself used a little truth and a little deception when talking to Jesus. And cults generally hide under the cover of "Bible-believers." So one wouldn't expect a heretic to reveal only their slimey underbelly without some cosmetics.



TheoJunkie -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (10/31/2007 12:00:05 PM)

Aside from placing this in the "What does this have to do with John Hagee" file..

quote:

ORIGINAL: rosswell59
Calvinism BTW holds the wrong view of Christ's person in that it believes that he could have sinned but was restrained by the hypostatic union.


You have your "isms" mixed up.

Christ the person could not sin, period. The GodMan is one person... so it is nonsense to say that Christ was "restrained" by anything. It is nonsense to speak of Christ the man as separate from Christ the Son of God... for the two are one. That is what hypostatic union is. It would be equally foolish to suggest that the only reason the Son obeys the Father is because the Son is being "restrained" by the trinitarian union.

quote:

Calvinism also denies the true work of the cross by imputing the righteous law keeping of Christ to the believer rather than the righteousness of God established on the cross.


Aside from the fact that you incompletely state what is imputed... what exactly is the righteousness of God but total Goodness and total absence of sin? (Rhetorical question, I'm not interested in your answer, at least not on this thread).



Ps103 -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/1/2007 10:06:44 AM)

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45degreeN -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/4/2007 3:37:23 PM)

If you up front asked John Hagee about this OP he would of course find the question ridiculous and absurd. Even if we dont like a person or their ministry we dont need to throw him to the wolves. Just turn the channel and watch another preacher.



jbow -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/4/2007 9:16:27 PM)

quote:

“In fact, trying to convert Jews is a ‘waste of time,’ he said. ‘The Jewish person who has his roots in Judaism is not going to convert to Christianity. There is no form of Christian evangelism that has failed so miserably as evangelizing the Jewish people. They (already) have a faith structure.’ Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha’i, needs to believe in Jesus, he says. But not Jews. Jews already have a covenant with God that has never been replaced by Christianity, he says.”11


Amazing stuff here. I've not been to seminary and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night... but I can read and the Bible make's it crystal clear that Christianity is Judasim. Christianity is not a new religion, it is the fulfilment of the Covenant with Abraham. Christianity is Jewish. Judaism did not cease 2,000 some odd years ago and Christianity did not begin 2,000 some odd years ago. The slain lamb was first revealed to Adam and Eve when God killed an animal, (probably a lamb), and made clothing to cover their nakedness. The lamb was shown to Abraham and Issac on the mount. The lamb is clearly shown in scripture. Jesus was the Lamb of God. Christianity is nothing more than a new name for the same religion. We refer to and old and a new covenant but in reality the new covenant is nothing more that the fulfilment of the old covenant.
There is ONLY ONE WAY to approach God and that is through the blood of the Lamb. There is no seperate way for any people.

How much more clear can it be? God didn't come up with something new for the gentiles, He grafted the gentiles into the olive tree.

If Hagee say's that the Jews have another way to salvation, then he is an anti-christ.

FWIW, I have heard this in other places lately. I heard someone discussing the recent "foot in mouth" thing from Ann Coulter, something about "perfected Jews". Actually she was referring to Jews becoming complete in Christ and it became a big flap about nothing. But... the people who were talking about it were saying that Jews could come to God through the law and they were referring to some other big name Christian leaders...

Hagee isn't the only one.

J



TheosCentric -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/5/2007 6:30:26 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 45degreeN

If you up front asked John Hagee about this OP he would of course find the question ridiculous and absurd. Even if we dont like a person or their ministry we dont need to throw him to the wolves. Just turn the channel and watch another preacher.

So, we should just ignore all the heresy being preached out there?

Side Note: It's been about two weeks, and I have not heard a response back from Hagee Ministries about my letter. I don't suppose I ever will.



Odeliya -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/5/2007 9:59:10 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: 45degreeN
we dont need to throw him to the wolves. Just turn the channel and watch another preacher.


Why not throw him there ? he will have right at home among his brothers; all he'll have to do is to take off his sheep's attire

Seriously though, heresies like this have to be exposed.Granted, you and I know to switch the channel- many people dont have enough knowledge to discern true from a lie.

That is the reason why there are no adult movies in dayTV for example- to prevent those who dont know" just to switch the channel" from being exposed to improper stuff.
I wish heretic TVPreachers were only shown late at night [:D]



Odeliya -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/5/2007 10:00:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger
.. Hagee's friendship with Jews is overriding what the Bible actually says.


[:D]
With friends like this who needs enemies..?



antonio1950 -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/9/2007 4:31:13 PM)

The Word of the Lord says:

(Romans 3:23) For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

(Romans 3:24) Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:



bzirk -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/9/2007 4:42:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: ccoppenbarger

The problem is that the Jews were looking for the conquering hero and king in their Messiah, but instead got the suffering servant of Isaiah. Fact is, Jesus was both because His kingdom is not of this world.

The Jews missed that. Hagee misses that. Dispensationalists miss that.

When Jesus says, "it is finished" from the cross, He means that 'it is finished'. The kingdom is being ushered in. This is why he does not answer completely the disciples just before he leaves in Acts 1. He wants them to see that His kingdom is now. Matt. 28:18 mentions that Jesus has all power on Heaven and Earth. He is the messiah of all peoples, both Jew and Gentile, regardless of any rapture heresies, where supposedly Israel is supposed to be saved during the tribulation. Sorry, but today is the day of salvation and Jesus is the Messiah of both the Jews and Gentiles, then and now. When Jesus returns, His kingdom will be complete according to Revelation.



Well said.



lw9 -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/9/2007 4:56:01 PM)

Totally ditto the above!



cajunhillbilly -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/10/2007 7:38:43 AM)

I agree as well



TheosCentric -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/11/2007 7:04:00 AM)

Flipped through the book yesterday in the Christian bookstore, and sure enough, he denies the Jesus was the Messiah in the section on Christians. It's there in black and white.



bzirk -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/11/2007 9:45:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkeigley

quote:

Anyway, I think we can all agree that Hagee is truly speaking heresy, correct?


Agreed.

I think if we fully understood the "Olive Tree Theology" (Romans 9-11)
We would find we all have "some" truth, but we're mostly wrong,
as Adam pointed out. It {IS} and it {ISN'T}.

No wonder we have so much confusion. LOL.

Hagee has been in error for some time even before the latest ride he's on.


Because he's on tv [8D] and lots of people listen to him, we spend a lot of time around here answering questions he's raised. In one sense it's good, because the people are asking questions and not just swallowing whole what he says. But I can't help but think about all the people who listen to this guy and don't ask questions and they are fearful and confused with a touch of superiority -- kind of like Hagee. Sadly, I have met several older people like this, who don't attend church and don't really know how to study the Bible, but hey, they listen to this guy as "church." So if I knew nothing else about Hagee, I know that his ministry is producing too many people who are simply not built up in the Lord but rather hanging on Hagee's every word. In fact, the dependence on Hagee that I've continually witnessed in people who follow his teachings is chilling.

I had someone send me a tape of him that they wanted me to hear, so my husband and I watched it. Man, where do people like this get the money to keep going? I guess scaring people and alternately making them feel all powerful is heady stuff that opens the pocket books.



drfuss -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/11/2007 3:07:16 PM)

Bzirk writes:
"Because he's on tv and lots of people listen to him, we spend a lot of time around here answering questions he's raised. In one sense it's good, because the people are asking questions and not just swallowing whole what he says. But I can't help but think about all the people who listen to this guy and don't ask questions and they are fearful and confused with a touch of superiority -- kind of like Hagee. Sadly, I have met several older people like this, who don't attend church and don't really know how to study the Bible, but hey, they listen to this guy as "church." So if I knew nothing else about Hagee, I know that his ministry is producing too many people who are simply not built up in the Lord but rather hanging on Hagee's every word. In fact, the dependence on Hagee that I've continually witnessed in people who follow his teachings is chilling. "

Drfuss: I agree. It is a sad situation.

Unfortunately, the same is true for a majority of church members. They blindly accept what their church teaches without objectively considering other interpretation of some doctrine supporting scriptures. Too many Christians make the same mistake as Hagee's followers by thinking the pastor is the minister and therefore is smarter than they are, and blindly follow his teachings. One advantages of changing denominations is that it forces you to re-evaluate scriptures and decide on your own what is right, unless you are too lazy and just blindly accept the new church teaching.

There are many minor aspects of doctrine to decide on when choosing a church. I have yet to attend one that I completely agree with.



bzirk -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/11/2007 3:18:24 PM)

That's why churches should be about equipping people to read the scriptures for themselves and encourage them to use scripture because:

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17so that the man of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work. (II Timothy 3:16,17)



elliemaejune -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/15/2007 11:37:04 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: rosswell59

I don't agree with his position but I don't believe it is heresy either. He seems to be saying that Jesus never intended at His first advent to be the promised Messiah. In a sense that is true in that He knew He would be rejected but nonetheless He made the bona fide offer just as He makes a bona fide offer to all men of salvation today whether they are elect or not. This seems to be where Hagee gets it wrong. He must see that Christ will only offer Himself at His second coming where He will be received as Messiah. His error seems to be that of failure to recognize that He did offer Himself in that capacity and that Israel truly did reject Him under the Old Covenant. The destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. is a chilling testimony to that.
Yours in Christ,
Ross


It is my understanding that Jesus did fulfill all the prophesies as Messiah. Messiah's first coming was to be as the sacrificial Lamb; His second coming will be as the conquering king. The Jews were looking for the second coming and missed the first one altogether.

I can't make anything that the Apostle Paul wrote to mean anything different than this.



Sammy_S -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/17/2007 1:35:51 AM)

I am very saddened in my heart that Hagee has taken this false doctrine.He was my favourute preacher until I heard of Paul Washer.



TheosCentric -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/17/2007 7:05:58 AM)

I have a response from John Hagee based on a letter I wrote him. I plan on posting it on my blog within a couple of days, along with commentary. In short, he says that Jesus was the savior, but not the messiah. The messiah part is future to Hagee. Stay tuned.

Btw, Paul Washer is much more Biblical than Hagee ever was.



Lapidoth -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/17/2007 9:45:04 AM)

quote:

That's why churches should be about equipping people to read the scriptures for themselves and encourage them to use scripture


This is the one sole purpose of the church as we know it.
For "equipping the saints so they will do the ministry."

We have failed as a church.

Those being equipped are doing their best to get there on
their own and in small bands. Then they are attacked by the church.
"Nothing new under the sun." lol.



Sammy_S -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/18/2007 3:09:57 PM)

quote:

This is the one sole purpose of the church as we know it.
For "equipping the saints so they will do the ministry."

We have failed as a church.

Those being equipped are doing their best to get there on
their own and in small bands. Then they are attacked by the church.
"Nothing new under the sun." lol.


carlkeigley

The Church has not failed!Churches fail,false christians and teachers fail.The Church is pleasant and acceptable to Chrsit.The bride of Christ has not failed or she wouldnt be acceptable.The Church is not the bulding or buildings or every member of every church.The Church is the elected of Christ.and the Elected will fail individually because we are sinners but Christ has washed us and we WILL follow his command because he says we will.

The Church has not failed at all but the counterfeit church which dominates the Media fails.



Child4Jesus -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/18/2007 3:37:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: carlkeigley

We are told to "bless" the nation Israel.
Yet, Hagee leading the way, millions in funds are given
to the sect that teaches the children "against" the Messiah.
Those funds would better be served by Jewish ministries
proclaiming the gospel. There is merit in blessing all Jews,
but the only real blessing is to find the Messiah.

We have done a poor job trying to "christianize" the Jews.
If I were a Jew I would run from a "christian" or a "Jesus follower."
Since it has been the "christian nations" that want to annihilate them.

But now the right approach is being made and Israelites are coming
to their Messiah. Many gentiles are recognizing we serve "their" Messiah.
The times of the Gentiles are rapidly winding down. God's plans are playing
out before our very eyes. Most will "wonder" what happened as they have
in millennia past.


Come again? Were are you getting this stuff from?



manwe -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/20/2007 11:09:34 PM)

In case there is still any doubt go to this blog to hear it straight from the horse's mouth.

Heretic Hagee states the following in his "book" In Defense of Israel:

* If God intended for Jesus to be the Messiah of Israel, why didn't he authorize Jesus to use supernatural signs to prove he was God's Messiah, just as Moses had done? (p. 137)

* Jesus refused to produce a sign ... because it was not the Father's will, nor his, to be Messiah. (p 138)

* If Jesus wanted to be Messiah, why did he repeatedly tell his disciples and followers to "tell no one" about his supernatural accomplishments? (p. 139)

* The Jews were not rejecting Jesus as Messiah; it was Jesus who was refusing to be the Messiah to the Jews. (p. 140)

* They wanted him to be their Messiah, but he flatly refused. (p. 141)

* He refused to be their Messiah, choosing instead to be the Savior of the world (p. 143)

* Jesus rejected to the last detail the role of Messiah in word or deed. (p. 145)

the above directly contradicts the following:

John 4:24-26 God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth." The woman said to Him, "I know that Messiah is coming" (who is called Christ). "When He comes, He will tell us all things." Jesus said to her, "I who speak to you am He."

Acts 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."

Christ means Messiah. Acts 2:36 is addressed to Israel.

Matthew 26:62-64 (Here Jesus told the high priest and Jewish leaders themselves)
And the high priest arose and said to Him, "Do You answer nothing? What is it these men testify against You?" But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, "I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!" Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."

If the above link does not work go to the reviews for the book on Amazon and see the video review.

Hope this helps.



TheosCentric -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/21/2007 5:13:39 AM)

Manwe,

I had emailed Hagee's ministries and received a response. He essentially says the same thing that you just listed, sparsely quoting verses. I responded to it on my blog. The link is in my sig.



Ps103 -> RE: John Hagee denies Jesus is the Messiah (11/21/2007 8:48:08 AM)

[sm=popsigh.gif]

Sad. That is all I can say.



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