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RE: Hence cometh...the Dream Interpreters - 10/31/2007 12:58:49 PM
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Flintejae
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SD - I just wanted to tell you that God can, and does, give people the discernment to interpret dreams. I've seen it happen, had it happen, and was encouraged by it.
Not every dream is from God. There are 'soulish' dreams, demonic dreams, and Godly dreams.
Of course anything, and everything, can be twisted and manipulated. Remember that there has to be something TRUE for it to be counterfeited. :)
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RE: Hence cometh...the Dream Interpreters - 10/31/2007 1:38:33 PM
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SD456
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quote:
Does the Bible speak against dream interpretation? The way it's being used and abused today - YES
Hi lw9, can you show me the scripture where the bible speaks against dream interpretation?? Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't remember where those verses are.
quote:
Dream interpretation was.... for a very specific purpose in the OT,
Fully Agree there! That's exactly how God uses dreams today, for a VERY specific purpose in a person's life.
quote:
The premise is that God is giving you messages in your dreams but you can't understand what He's saying. That's the hidden part.
Yes, absolutely agree again! Just like the cupbearer and the baker had dreams in Genesis that had symbolism that they couldn't understand; just like the king that Joseph was under had symobolizm in his dreams that he couldn't understand; and just like Jesus told parables with symbolism in them that the religious leaders couldn't understand. God loves to speak in riddles and symbols, the bible is FULL of this, including Revelations. And it takes the help of the Holy Spirit to often understand God's riddle-talk, and of course waiting on God and understanding what symbols meant in the bible in the context that God used them.
Ho 12:10
I spoke to the prophets, gave them many visions and told parables through them.
The bible shows us lots and lots of examples where God speaks to people in riddles, in a way, and they need either a person that God has given the insight to or the Holy Spirit to help them get the understanding of it. Even the disciples were often clueless in understanding Jesus meaning of things and He had to often pull them aside and tell them what He meant. I'm not surprised that God still speaks this way to us today.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 10/31/2007 2:16:13 PM >
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RE: Hence cometh...the Dream Interpreters - 10/31/2007 2:55:00 PM
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lw9
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Hello SD456:
quote:
Hi lw9, can you show me the scripture where the bible speaks against dream interpretation?? Perhaps I'm missing something, but I don't remember where those are.
I'll be honest here. You kind of shot yourself in the foot in the 'Are there any prophets anymore' thread when you continually dodged my questions asking for scriptural support of your views [which you never did answer] and then conveniently bailed out. But now you want me to invest the time to answer your questions? That's kinda cheeky, and my trust level is very low at this point.
Here's my answer: See post #25. I've already explained it, and the Bible clearly warns against interpreters of dreams associated with the occult.
Question 1: Where does the Bible tell us to assign meanings to colors, animals, numbers, objects, etc. and then apply them to dreams to extract alleged hidden information and messages from God? List those passages.
Question 2: Where does the Bible list or instruct anyone in dream interpretation as a ministry or a spiritual gift? Provide those scriptures.
Thanks.
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RE: Hence cometh...the Dream Interpreters - 10/31/2007 3:46:24 PM
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SD456
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quote:
and the Bible clearly warns against interpreters of dreams associated with the occult.
I totally agree that those who are associated with the occult are bad, bad, bad....
(As for bailing out on the prophetic discussion, I saw no point in trying to debate with 5 people who seemed more desirous in bashing people they don't like in ministry then actually talking about the prophetic. And it seemed to me that I also gave biblical support, but you were of differing opinions. Which is fine if that's what you believe.)
Joseph showed us the example of dream interpreters being used by God, so I learn from this example that 1) God does give people dreams they won't necessarly understand, and that, 2) God does use interpreters sometimes (not always). I think we probably differ in opinion on this conclusion, but it's what I believe the Holy Spirit has taught me and others on the subject.
As for your Question # 1, if you don't understand how God teaches people to understand his symbols in scripture, I guess I could give you a quick run-down of it: Normally the way the object or symbol was used in the first instance it appears in scripture, is what that symbol stands for throughout. So the first time the #6 is used is the sixth day that God created man, so it is the number for man, thus 666, when stamped on our palms and foreheads in Revelations, stands for those who have the thoughts and deeds of men ruling their lives (palms, standing for the works of our hands, and the forehead standing for our thoughts).
You may not understand that, but I'm not overly concerned with every person in the body of Christ understanding dreams, prophecy, etc. God will speak to whomever has the ears to hear, at least that's my understanding.
As for question 2? My understanding is when God gives us an example of something in scripture, it's to teach us, not just about that event, but also on HOW God speaks to us and what His nature is like. We learn from the stories and examples themselves, we don't need a bible verse specifically saying "dream interpretation is a gift of the Holy spirit", the stories show us that sometimes God uses a person with God-given insight to interpret dreams. That's enough for me. God gave me the example in scripture. So again, we probably differ on this, but that's ok, I'm not worried about that.
And I did reread your post #25, but I don't see where you have a scripture that speaks against dream interpretation. I've shown you a biblical illustration that shows God using someone to interpret dreams, so it is a valid way that God gives insight to people. At least that's my understanding of it.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 10/31/2007 3:56:28 PM >
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RE: Hence cometh...the Dream Interpreters - 10/31/2007 4:56:28 PM
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lw9
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SD456:
quote:
And it seemed to me that I also gave biblical support, but you were of differing opinions.
No, you never did address my specific questions with Biblical support. That is clear enough in that thread.
quote:
As for your Question # 1, if you don't understand how God teaches people to understand his symbols in scripture, I guess I could give you a quick run-down of it: Normally the way the object or symbol was used in the first instance it appears in scripture, is what that symbol stands for throughout. So the first time the #6 is used is the sixth day that God created man, so it is the number for man, thus 666, when stamped on our palms and foreheads in Revelations, stands for those who have the thoughts and deeds of men ruling their lives (palms, standing for the works of our hands, and the forehead standing for our thoughts).
Let me get this straight...
1. Some things in the Bible can have symbolic meaning.
2. Therefore, we can then conclude that we should go through the Bible and assign meanings to everything so we can apply them to dreams in order to extract hidden messages from God [???]
You've just wrenched a false conclusion from out of nowhere, and the Bible does not support that conclusion. Just because the Bible has examples of symbolic meanings doesn't justify or support the modern formulaic method of dream interpretation in any way, shape, or form.
Anyway, I asked you for the scriptures in the Bible that tell us to go through the Bible and assign meanings to colors, animals, numbers, objects, etc, and then apply them specifically to DREAMS to extract hidden information from God. Not surprisingly, you've not provided the scriptures and therefore have not answered the question.
quote:
As for question 2? My understanding is when God gives us an example of something in scripture, it's to teach us, not just about that event, but also on HOW God speaks to us and what His nature is like. We learn from the stories and examples themselves, we don't need a bible verse specifically saying "dream interpretation is a gift of the Holy spirit", the stories show us that sometimes God uses a person with God-given insight to interpret dreams. That's enough for me. God gave me the example in scripture. So again, we probably differ on this, but that's ok, I'm not worried about that.
That's your answer... "We don't need a Bible verse specifically saying dream interpretation is a gift of the Holy Spirit"? I guess we're just supposed to assume that it's 'implied' in there somewhere and run with it. Great. The people who cluck like chickens and moo like cows 'in the spirit' don't need a Bible verse for what they do, either.
The fact is that the Bible goes into detail on what IS a spiritual gift, and dream interpretation isn't on the list or even mentioned in the NT. You have no Biblical grounds or evidence to stand on. As you've stated yourself, you don't need a Bible verse, so once again no Biblical verse was provided to support your belief.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 10/31/2007 5:08:20 PM >
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RE: Hence cometh...the Dream Interpreters - 10/31/2007 6:25:42 PM
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SD456
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It seems they all turn into fruitless agruments on these forums. My first experience with them and quite eye opening to see how people of different viewpoints interact with each other.
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RE: Hence cometh...the Dream Interpreters - 10/31/2007 6:40:11 PM
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SD456
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I was reading those exact same verses a couple days ago and thinking the same thing. This seems like those vain arguments that was spoken against that are bad for the listeners and doesn't build up.
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RE: Hence cometh...the Dream Interpreters - 10/31/2007 7:53:33 PM
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lw9
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quote:
SD456: I have an illustration from the bible that shows me the truth of dream interpretation being from God, so, yes, as I said, I don't believe I need a 2nd confirmation in scripture that God actually moves through people this way.
Yes, there are all sorts of ministries and gifts we can form based on a single illustration or example ripped from the Bible. Great plan.
Following in the footsteps of David, there's the 'Taking Down of Large People With a Sling' ministry. And when they get together with those fun-loving folks over at Jael's Hammer Ministries, there's just no stopping the playful pranks! Can you say 'Ouch'?
Balaam's donkey set the standard for animals everywhere with the 'Animal Prophets' spiritual gift ministry, an outreach seeking to squeeze some godly wisdom out of our four-footed friends. Yes, that frisky squirrel out back just might have a prophetic word for you!
Need to plague your neighbor? No worries! Exodus describes the perfect thing for you. Your enemies may consider it a curse, but we think you'll call it a gift when your borrowed lawn mower is quickly restored to your garage thanks to a plague of frogs!
Don't forget the 'Build Your Own Ark' ministry project. It's tons of fun for the kids... and it's Biblical! **
** Worldwide flood not included. Caution: Ark holds only two of every animal. Do not exceed weight limits.
Hey, why not? 
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RE: Hence cometh...the Dream Interpreters - 10/31/2007 11:12:10 PM
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sue244
Posts: 437
Joined: 6/7/2006
From: Colorado
Status: online
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
SD456: I have an illustration from the bible that shows me the truth of dream interpretation being from God, so, yes, as I said, I don't believe I need a 2nd confirmation in scripture that God actually moves through people this way.
Yes, there are all sorts of ministries and gifts we can form based on a single illustration or example ripped from the Bible. Great plan.
Following in the footsteps of David, there's the 'Taking Down of Large People With a Sling' ministry. And when they get together with those fun-loving folks over at Jael's Hammer Ministries, there's just no stopping the playful pranks! Can you say 'Ouch'?
Balaam's donkey set the standard for animals everywhere with the 'Animal Prophets' spiritual gift ministry, an outreach seeking to squeeze some godly wisdom out of our four-footed friends. Yes, that frisky squirrel out back just might have a prophetic word for you!
Need to plague your neighbor? No worries! Exodus describes the perfect thing for you. Your enemies may consider it a curse, but we think you'll call it a gift when your borrowed lawn mower is quickly restored to your garage thanks to a plague of frogs!
Don't forget the 'Build Your Own Ark' ministry project. It's tons of fun for the kids... and it's Biblical! **
** Worldwide flood not included. Caution: Ark holds only two of every animal. Do not exceed weight limits.
Hey, why not?
Good point lw9.
I will say it again since it seems no one is getting it. All this tread seems to be doing is trying to justify Freudian Dream theory. Yeah there's a person I want to base any of my theology on.
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RE: Hence cometh...the Dream Interpreters - 11/1/2007 2:05:58 AM
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SD456
Posts: 1263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: lw9
quote:
SD456: I have an illustration from the bible that shows me the truth of dream interpretation being from God, so, yes, as I said, I don't believe I need a 2nd confirmation in scripture that God actually moves through people this way.
Yes, there are all sorts of ministries and gifts we can form based on a single illustration or example ripped from the Bible. Great plan.
Following in the footsteps of David, there's the 'Taking Down of Large People With a Sling' ministry. And when they get together with those fun-loving folks over at Jael's Hammer Ministries, there's just no stopping the playful pranks! Can you say 'Ouch'?
Balaam's donkey set the standard for animals everywhere with the 'Animal Prophets' spiritual gift ministry, an outreach seeking to squeeze some godly wisdom out of our four-footed friends. Yes, that frisky squirrel out back just might have a prophetic word for you!
Need to plague your neighbor? No worries! Exodus describes the perfect thing for you. Your enemies may consider it a curse, but we think you'll call it a gift when your borrowed lawn mower is quickly restored to your garage thanks to a plague of frogs!
Don't forget the 'Build Your Own Ark' ministry project. It's tons of fun for the kids... and it's Biblical! **
** Worldwide flood not included. Caution: Ark holds only two of every animal. Do not exceed weight limits.
Hey, why not?
Wow, I'm quite surprised at you, lw. Have you not been a christian for very long? Because the attitude and the tone of ridicule that you speak to people with seems to show great immaturity on your part. I thought I was going to meet people on this forum who show a gentle respect to others (and some of them do) but I see that there are at least a few who are at such an immature place in their relationship with Christ that they struggle with the concept of speaking in love and humility, and they seem to get so aggravated when the conversation doesn't go in the direction they want that they resort to ridicule, scorn and mockery.....what a sad thing 
Your comments are not worthy of an answer, dear friend.
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RE: Hence cometh...the Dream Interpreters - 11/1/2007 3:38:46 AM
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miasma
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When you lie down, to go to sleep, your brain gets a rest. Some people dream. I do, vividly, every night. I wake up uncertain if I dreamed an action, or not.
Others just sleep.
"Dreams" are nothing more than random recollections, and unacknowledged anxieties, fears, hopes, etc.
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RE: Hence cometh...the Dream Interpreters - 11/1/2007 5:06:25 AM
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Stephanos
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quote:
ORIGINAL: miasma
When you lie down, to go to sleep, your brain gets a rest. Some people dream. I do, vividly, every night. I wake up uncertain if I dreamed an action, or not.
Others just sleep.
"Dreams" are nothing more than random recollections, and unacknowledged anxieties, fears, hopes, etc.
So how do you explain Joseph and Daniel's experiences with dreams? Are you saying the bible is wrong when it tells those stories? I hope not. For in these two God came to them in a dream. How about Joseph the husband of Mary? God came to him in a dream explaining that the baby that Mary was carrying was of God and he (Joseph) should not send away (aka divorce) Mary. How about Peter? In a dream God revealed to Peter that He, God, was going to start bringing salvation to the gentiles even though they were previously "unclean" to the Jews (Acts 10).
The bible is quite clear. God DOES occasionally work through peoples dreams. Is it EVERY dream? No. In every case in the bible, God BROUGHT the interpreter into the dreamers life for that specific dream. Not every dream has meaning, but dreams are not all worthless.
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RE: Hence cometh...the Dream Interpreters - 11/1/2007 8:36:43 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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Honestly it always gets interesting for me to see the forums break at the idea of the NT being THE definition for all things Godly in the world of "today". Allow me to make two keen observations. The majority of the OT is the telling of various historical info, prophetic revelation about the future, and one rather large book about the nature of God (Psalms). The NT has a little bit of historical information (the Gospels and Acts), one smallish book of prophetic revelation about future (sic) (Revelation), and 21 books of pure theology and philosophy that is built on all the rest. To say that things in the OT necessarily need some kind of confirmation in the New Testament to be valid is actually what we call "Covenant Theology".quote:
Yes, there are all sorts of ministries and gifts we can form based on a single illustration or example ripped from the Bible. Great plan.
Following in the footsteps of David, there's the 'Taking Down of Large People With a Sling' ministry. And when they get together with those fun-loving folks over at Jael's Hammer Ministries, there's just no stopping the playful pranks! Can you say 'Ouch'?
Balaam's donkey set the standard for animals everywhere with the 'Animal Prophets' spiritual gift ministry, an outreach seeking to squeeze some godly wisdom out of our four-footed friends. Yes, that frisky squirrel out back just might have a prophetic word for you!
Need to plague your neighbor? No worries! Exodus describes the perfect thing for you. Your enemies may consider it a curse, but we think you'll call it a gift when your borrowed lawn mower is quickly restored to your garage thanks to a plague of frogs!
Don't forget the 'Build Your Own Ark' ministry project. It's tons of fun for the kids... and it's Biblical! ** Problem... David slew a giant not because of the great spiritual need, but rather for the physical one... the same can be said of Jael, Balaam's Donkey, Moses, and Noah. Let's face it, if Noah doesn't build the ark, we all die.... question, are there any worldwide floods coming on the horizon? No? Then we are safe. Are there any giants that we need to pick one dude to fight? No? Then your sling can stay safely in your pocket. Are people still dreaming? Yes. Can God speak through dreams? YES (Jacob in Gensis, Joseph in Exodus, the Midianite in Judges, Daniel, Joseph ben Simon in the Gospels, the Magi, Jeremiah, Jonah, Saul, Ananias... all of these had dreams where God spoke to them). Do people always understand their dreams when they come? A thorough no. As I seem to recall saying in another thread, the knowledge of God and the Word of The Lord are very rare in the Western Church. So dream interpretation is valid biblically, and I would even say necessary to some degree. Maybe not a verbatim message delivery, but at least a basic understanding what a dream means would do amazing things in church.quote:
The bible is quite clear. God DOES occasionally work through peoples dreams. Is it EVERY dream? No. In every case in the bible, God BROUGHT the interpreter into the dreamers life for that specific dream. Not every dream has meaning, but dreams are not all worthless. Major Ditt-to-the-O. God does work through dreams, and I'm sure not every dream is a deep revelation... but some are.quote:
"Dreams" are nothing more than random recollections, and unacknowledged anxieties, fears, hopes, etc. Maybe if you are Sigmund Frieud... for those of us who don't think the human body is pure clockwork and red meat, God has the ability to have a profound influence on our human processes. Since this is the case, isn't it possible for him to rearrange your chemicals to produce a certain image or series of images as to communicate a message?quote:
So I googled Christian Dream Interperation and boy did I come up with some instersting web sites. Okay, previously I declined to mention any ministries for the sake of avoiding an argument. Since one has ensued anyway, I will recommend to you John Paul Jackson and his ministry "Streams International." They have a good number of resources on dream interpretation as well as their own in house seminars about the prophetic. Does it cost money? Yes, but it is how they afford to print their materials... it's called economics, deal with it.
Adam
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RE: Hence cometh...the Dream Interpreters - 11/1/2007 10:24:20 AM
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lw9
Posts: 1131
Joined: 7/22/2005
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quote:
SD456: Wow, I'm quite surprised at you, lw. Have you not been a christian for very long? Because the attitude and the tone of ridicule that you speak to people with seems to show great immaturity on your part. I thought I was going to meet people on this forum who show a gentle respect to others (and some of them do) but I see that there are at least a few who are at such an immature place in their relationship with Christ that they struggle with the concept of speaking in love and humility, and they seem to get so aggravated when the conversation doesn't go in the direction they want that they resort to ridicule, scorn and mockery.....what a sad thing.
It should be fairly obvious that I was using humor to make a point and trying to lighten things up at the same time, and there was absolutely no malice behind it. If you don't understand that [or perhaps don't want to understand that], then I certainly can't help you. Playing the 'persecuted victim' card here on what was clearly a bit of fun & silliness and trying to redirect the discussion away from the real issue doesn't make it go away. The issue still remains, and my point was still a completely valid one when applied to your argument and the logic you're using.
You want to base a 'gift' around one example in the Bible. Fine. We can take that example to the extreme and come up with all sorts of gifts and ministries, can't we. What's to stop us? Well, common sense and the Bible should be stopping us from creating gifts and ministries where there are none mentioned, but so far it doesn't look like the Bible is stopping many folks from just making up 'careers' for themselves.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 11/1/2007 11:02:30 AM >
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RE: Hence cometh...the Dream Interpreters - 11/1/2007 11:13:23 AM
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wintery
Posts: 1866
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From: nw alabama
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Thanks for all the responses.
I thought the slightly humorous examples from lw9 were not at all meant to be offensive but were "nail on the head" to some of the stuff that's out there.
The "anything goes in the mysterious spiritual realm" attitude is a major reason I no longer attend charismatic meetings. Why not just be faithful to God instead of dwelling in a frivolous party atmosphere of looking for the newest thing such as dream interpretation?
It seems that when people tell you they have a ministry involving spiritual things--prophecy, visions, dream interpreting or anything unseen such as angels--the self-promoting aspect is a clue that they are off in some way. Hey, don't criticize...it's just 99% of them making the other 1% look bad, after all. I won't place limits on what God can do...but why should leaving that door open be a floodgate for weird and imaginary unscriptural teachings? If my made-up statistic above is only half-right then there are thousands in need of correction for the sake of their souls, but they reject it because they do not require a scriptural basis for what they do.
The dream ladies I encountered sat a public table with two men they didn't know and began their dream scavenging with what I consider a shock value, saying the word "naked" over and over, "almost everybody has a naked dream, don't be ashamed of a naked dream, being naked in a dream is good thing, being naked means you're being transparent"-and they do not know that at all and they are not qualified to interject those opinions into people's lives and were not having a ministry and were not doing God any favors. When Isaiah was naked it meant judgement for Egypt (Isaiah 20 verses 3 and 4).
So, someone googled and found Christian dream interpreters for mammon, hmmm? Thanks for that, and not surprising. I think part of the draw for people pursuing to be "more spiritual" than others is in fact, the chance to be "special" and make a buck while doing it. This is not being harsh or unfair. An economic crash would cure us of a lot of "ministries" and I think we all really know this.
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RE: Hence cometh...the Dream Interpreters - 11/1/2007 12:10:34 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1131
Joined: 7/22/2005
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quote:
FurGodWurlivin: Since one has ensued anyway, I will recommend to you John Paul Jackson and his ministry "Streams International."
For those who aren't aware, John Paul Jackson is one of the original 'Kansas City Prophets' who teaches some very strange and unBiblical things, like portals of spherical light on earth that offer divine protection and gives angels, heavenly beings, and people access to travel from the 2nd and 3rd heaven to earth. He claims these portals can become 'stopped up' and must be unclogged every now and then by people like himself. Ironically enough, Jackson not only accepts the New Age teaching on portals, but then expands upon it and formulates his own 'portal doctrine' while calling New Agers deceived at the same time. You can find his teaching about portals HERE.
When you 'partner' with John Paul Jackson [i.e. give him money], here's what you get:
quote:
"Partnership means a fervent desire to see God's destiny fulfilled in each others' lives.
Imagine receiving new insights, reaching new levels of growth, and expanding your spiritual gifting while helping others do the same."
He's offering new levels of spiritual growth, insights, and expanding your spiritual gifting through himself and FOR MONEY. I guess if you don't partner with JPJ, you miss out on a whole bunch of 'spiritual' stuff. Too bad. LINK
He's offering up for sale what he has no right to dole out in the first place. All I can say is beware.
quote:
They have a good number of resources on dream interpretation as well as their own in house seminars about the prophetic. Does it cost money? Yes, but it is how they afford to print their materials... it's called economics, deal with it.
And he can't just post that on his website for free... why? Anyone claiming to have special 'spiritual' knowledge and gifts, or offering to propel you to new 'spiritual levels' for a price should be the first clue that something is seriously amiss.
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RE: Hence cometh...the Dream Interpreters - 11/1/2007 12:12:39 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1131
Joined: 7/22/2005
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quote:
wintery: So, someone googled and found Christian dream interpreters for mammon, hmmm?
It has officially been turned into a career, I think. There are Christian dream interpreters and spiritual trainers popping up on the net. And you know that's gonna cost money. 
< Message edited by lw9 -- 11/1/2007 12:34:14 PM >
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RE: Hence cometh...the Dream Interpreters - 11/1/2007 12:25:59 PM
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Consecrated2God
Posts: 4976
Joined: 4/4/2005
From: Formerly Jesus Land
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quote:
When you lie down, to go to sleep, your brain gets a rest. Some people dream. I do, vividly, every night. I wake up uncertain if I dreamed an action, or not.
That pretty much describes the way I dream. Sometimes I wish a dream had meaning (like the night I dreamed my husband got a pastor job of a huge church and it came with a giagantic house with our own private highway to the church) and other nights when I'm glad they don't have any meaning (like the night I dreamed our attorney advised us to poison our landlord!)
My husband, on the other hand, rarely dreams. When he does dream, though, they sometimes do have a meaning. He's never needed an interpreter, though. I haven't investigated it for myself, but it seems that most of the NT dreams were interpreted by the dreamer. Maybe that's part of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. I don't know.
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RE: Hence cometh...the Dream Interpreters - 11/1/2007 12:40:45 PM
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although I did find one site that would tell you some of the symbols and what they mean in dreams. 
