RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

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zamdad -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/21/2007 10:20:18 AM)

quote:

SadieJ
Its truly no honest way in America to discuss race. So called christians aren't enlightened enough nor do most of them have enough Christ in them to truly assess the problem of race in America and overcome it in their own personal lives. Even in these post; christians still fail to admit and refuse to look at the facts of racism in America. Blame for racism is passed back and forward but never claimed--excuses are always made why equality for all can't happen; Al Sharpton is blamed, the Klan is blamed and then you have those who just don't want to deal with it.


Wow, you're all over the place in this paragraph. You begin making the statement that there is no honest way to discuss race in America and then state that others aren't enlightened enough to truly assess the prolem. Each of us comes at this from our own personal perspective. We have no means of truly understanding it from the perspective of another no matter how much we may empathize.

It seems that racism will never end because we, as individuals, refuse to place Christ before self and demand that our rights be heard and met. There's more than enough blame to p[ass around. The only way it will end is when we quit placing blame, turn off the TV, and take a look in the mirror.

quote:

Its even been said here: just don't talk about it--let it die out; what a laugh! this will never happen..the subject hasn't died in 400 years and it won't for another 400 years - probably never will as long as there are hardened hearts and closed minds in America.


This is another reason the problem won't go away. At what point do we determine when hearts and minds are open? My response to this post will, likely, be judged cold hearted and narrow minded. Yet, that judgment will come from a very narrow perspective. Why is it that we want everyone else to open their hearts and minds with the exception of self?

quote:

Blacks are sick and tired of being sick and tired of racism. The so-called "American dream" seems to be reserved for the majority only and damn anybody else who desires the same.


I think we're all sick and tired of being sick and tired of an issue that won't die. But, why won't the issue die? For some, there is power in being a victim. The media has to have something to report and fill our minds everyday. Perhaps it's because we spend too much time focusing on things other than Christ.



Roberta_ -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/21/2007 1:16:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zamdad
I think we're all sick and tired of being sick and tired of an issue that won't die. But, why won't the issue die? For some, there is power in being a victim. The media has to have something to report and fill our minds everyday. Perhaps it's because we spend too much time focusing on things other than Christ.


Amen!



Matt Smith -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/21/2007 1:23:27 PM)

For the record -- I see a lot of people repeating the same positions over and over again, from thread to thread. And I haven't seen much in the way of good old-fashioned listening to learn from the experiences of others... or from current research about the issue of race in American society.

I've paid attention to the research, and I've had personal experiences. Racism's alive and well in American society. Not like it was 200 years ago, or 100, or 50 -- but very much an issue today as well.

It's sad and discouraging to see people ignore or dismiss all the evidence that racism is a problem. And it's beneath us as a society.

It's sad to see people offer brief prescriptions, based largely on the idea that they won't have to personally do anything about racism, and the problem lies with others. I think that's beneath us, too.

I'll continue to post in solidarity and in hope. I'll continue to take personal responsibility, as a member of society, for the role I can play in dismantling racism. That's what I'd want others to do for me, if I were being treated unjustly.

Matt



rcjames -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/21/2007 1:41:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Matt Smith

For the record -- I see a lot of people repeating the same positions over and over again, from thread to thread. And I haven't seen much in the way of good old-fashioned listening to learn from the experiences of others... or from current research about the issue of race in American society.

I've paid attention to the research, and I've had personal experiences. Racism's alive and well in American society. Not like it was 200 years ago, or 100, or 50 -- but very much an issue today as well.

It's sad and discouraging to see people ignore or dismiss all the evidence that racism is a problem. And it's beneath us as a society.

It's sad to see people offer brief prescriptions, based largely on the idea that they won't have to personally do anything about racism, and the problem lies with others. I think that's beneath us, too.

I'll continue to post in solidarity and in hope. I'll continue to take personal responsibility, as a member of society, for the role I can play in dismantling racism. That's what I'd want others to do for me, if I were being treated unjustly.


That is nice generalization post; how about some specifics so we can discuss them.

Thanks
RC



Lapidoth -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/21/2007 6:22:12 PM)

There is only one thing that sees absolutely NO Color.

That's the love of God.

We can make Love into a prism and it will still NOT show color.
Even the rainbow around God's throne is only one color. lol.

Prejudice isn't a color issue. Color is an excuse issue.

Prejudice is a lack of character. A lack of Godly Love. A lack of Christ-likeness.

That's the only black and white of it all.

If color is the only prejudice we see, we are prejudice against the rest of the world.
When we are prejudiced by color, we are looking at ourselves.
"We are bought with a price."
Is it prejudice to be owned by God?
Our freedoms are won by blood and the loss of life.
But those who get to enjoy those freedoms lack the appreciation
of the "cost" that we enjoy for "free."

Color is not the issue, this applies to something simple like living in a free republic like ours.
If we want to only bring it down to a base issue of color, we'll never get away from it.

I can only think what it will be like when we all are governed by a brown (olive) skinned Messiah.

For the truth of it all, there is only one "RACE". It's called the human race.
No matter what the color we all came from the same man and woman.
If we look at another person of a different color as a race, we are the one who is blind.



Matt Smith -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/21/2007 6:48:38 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SonInMe1

Its why I dislike this notion of a black culture. There is no such thing. Its like fostering stereotypoes or something. Not all black people like hip hop or gospel. Not all black people eat the same foods or wear the same clothes or believe the same things. Not all black people...are american.


I'm not sure you understand what a culture is. No cultural group meets the standards you mention. Not all Jews listen to klezmer, value education, eat knishes... or even believe in God. There's still such a thing as Jewish culture. (And I say that as a Jew who doesn't fit many of the stereotypes myself.)

quote:

If you have been prejudiced against, you can prove it. Then sue.


Umm... I get the feeling you haven't been paying attention. You've said that several times, and I've pointed out several times that it's not true. Quite often, things happen that would be impossible to prove in court. Ask any lawyer.

If we're serious about ending racism, the legal system can only be one piece of a much larger effort.

Matt



SonInMe1 -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/21/2007 9:19:25 PM)

quote:

things happen that would be impossible to prove in court.


Then how serious is it? If there are no demonstrable damages, is it racism?

So, people don't like you for a good reason...welcome to adulthood. People can find a lot of ways to hate. All they need is an excuse...and that will never end until Jesus comes back.

There will never be an end to this hatred....ever. Making the majority feel guilty is counter productive. Seperating yourselves into groups is not going to work. Celebrating your culture over common sence will not work. Excuse making will not work. The blame game does not work.

Recognising that skin pigment is NOT important will work. Looking at people for who they are will work. Love always works. Self reliance works. An attitude of victory works.

1Corinthians 13:3-8

quote:

3 If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing.

4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5 It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.

8 Love never fails.


5 is important. Love is not rude, it is not self seeking, it is not easily angered....it keeps no record of wrong doing



GregandJenny -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/22/2007 5:08:28 AM)

quote:

've paid attention to the research, and I've had personal experiences. Racism's alive and well in American society. Not like it was 200 years ago, or 100, or 50 -- but very much an issue today as well.

It's sad and discouraging to see people ignore or dismiss all the evidence that racism is a problem. And it's beneath us as a society.


I don't think people deny that racism is alive in America. But as I have said in many posts, what do you want me to do about it if I am not the racist. if I am not experiencing racism or living in racism as an individual what can I do then to change racism. racism is an issue for some People, just not me at this point in my life, so in my mind it's hard to deal with it because in a sense I don't understand it. do yu see what I mean Matt?


Gh



SonInMe1 -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/22/2007 6:59:13 AM)

So, minorities experience racism...ok.

Now what? Does that mean all minorities are defeated before they start? There is no chance for advancement or success as a minority in america?

It would seem this is false. There are many successful minorities in america. The difference?

Those who succeed overcome obsticles. They do not make excuses.

For those... I think few...who believe there are fewer or no obsticles for white people? That is delusion. If by chance, it is harder for a minority, today, tog et ahead, then praise God for those who do.

If it can be done, it will be done and since it is being done, racism as a huge factor in people's lives...is truly either an excuse...or a lie.

If racism, to you, is just people not liking you because of your minority status, I think that does not define racism. I think it defines stupidity by a few people who are blinded to very simple truths. I think it also is very easy to make excuses by minorities to not succeed.

Hey, I can be wrong, but there is no doubt many people believe as I do. Why? Because, like me, they see this in action. Someone doesn;t get a promotion, its racism, esspecially if the supervisor making the decision...is white and the employee is a minority. Its just...too easy.

I am not saying it doesn't happen but if it does, and you can show it, sue. I can't believe that this cannot be proven.

No doubt people are dumb. I hear racist statements becuase some people believe because I am white, I belong to the "club". However when I see these people interact with minorities, they treat them fairly....

and don't think because I am white I don't see racism against white people. My boss is hispanic and there is no doubt there is favortism toward hispanics where I work.



sinlessingodseyes -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/22/2007 9:45:19 AM)

I believe that when people realise we are all ONE in Christ then the problem of racism will be well on its way to being defeated (or at least leaving everyone in a much better position than we are currently in). We are all equal in God's eyes, there is no room for man's opinion in the matter, live by what God says and racism WILL die down.

BUT one important part of the racism issue, especially where i live, is the need for forgiveness. Those affected by it need to forgive those who made them suffer and not blame those who are not responsible. Those who are guilty of being racist need to ask for forgiveness and need to live by the principles mentioned above.



Lapidoth -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/22/2007 9:56:03 AM)

quote:

live by what God says and racism WILL die down.


This is the only solution.



zamdad -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/22/2007 11:33:04 AM)

quote:

Matt Smith
For the record -- I see a lot of people repeating the same positions over and over again, from thread to thread. And I haven't seen much in the way of good old-fashioned listening to learn from the experiences of others... or from current research about the issue of race in American society.

I've paid attention to the research, and I've had personal experiences. Racism's alive and well in American society. Not like it was 200 years ago, or 100, or 50 -- but very much an issue today as well.

It's sad and discouraging to see people ignore or dismiss all the evidence that racism is a problem. And it's beneath us as a society.

It's sad to see people offer brief prescriptions, based largely on the idea that they won't have to personally do anything about racism, and the problem lies with others. I think that's beneath us, too.

I'll continue to post in solidarity and in hope. I'll continue to take personal responsibility, as a member of society, for the role I can play in dismantling racism. That's what I'd want others to do for me, if I were being treated unjustly.


I have to agree with RC. Nice generalizing post.

As I stated in my earlier post, we all come at this issue from personal experience. While we can educate ourselves and convince ourselves that we are experts, our personal experience regarding a given issue is going to be our guiding influence in how we percieve things.

I'm curious, Matt, about your personal experiences with this issue. I know from perviosu conversations with you that you consider yurself a minority. We have another one stop thread for that topic. Since our experience shapes our worldview and most people on here are followers of Christ, I'm curious how you have experienced racism and what shpes your paradigm on this issue.



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/22/2007 2:00:07 PM)

I don't know....It seems to me that if anyone can simply use their powers of simple thought, they would realize that skin color is the most inane reason for prejudice that ever was thought up. Ludicrous.

Now, cultures? Certainly, we do not always understand other cultures well enough to get along 100% of the time.



gaylel1 -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/22/2007 2:43:11 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Abbie_girl

quote:

ORIGINAL: zamdad
I think we're all sick and tired of being sick and tired of an issue that won't die. But, why won't the issue die? For some, there is power in being a victim. The media has to have something to report and fill our minds everyday. Perhaps it's because we spend too much time focusing on things other than Christ.


No, it is not about being a victim, yet if people regonize that racism is a sin in the body of Christ, we as Christians would fight it aggresivly. I'ts not going to die unless Christians learn to live with one another and accept the fact that Christianity knows no color line.



amyk -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/22/2007 3:08:41 PM)

What are practical suggestions for how people of the "majority skin color" should try to combat racism?

One I can think of is to refuse to participate in racist jokes and to speak out against them to those who pass them on to you in emails or who tell them to you. It is really hard to take a stand against racism if it is one of your own family members who is a racist, I think. Or if you are a guest in someone's home, and they start making racist comments, that is not an easy situation.

Are there other ideas of what people can do to combat racism?



SonInMe1 -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/23/2007 2:44:21 AM)

Does any christian not recognise racism as a sin?



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/23/2007 9:53:00 AM)

Some of the things being written here make me feel like I am back in the '60s, when we were all trying to work out our feelings, prejudices, and fears. I am really surprised that this kind of thought is continuing, and it appears that the thoughts written here arise from some of you continuing to deal with people with these attitudes on a greater level than I understood.

Are people still telling/emailing racist jokes and making racist comments? I can't remember the last time anyone attempted such a thing. I am So Sorry that it appears to be so blatantly continuing.

Certainly, I am very familiar with the bone-headed skin heads and their continued activities, with the wannabe Nazis of the 2000s, and with those who are Klanish, but common, everyday, ordinary people are doing this stuff? People who claim to be believers are doing this stuff? I ask because I would like to know. And is there any way that you can give examples without instigating in weaker minds of some readers more of the same actions?



gaylel1 -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/23/2007 11:54:43 AM)

quote:

Some of the things being written here make me feel like I am back in the '60s, when we were all trying to work out our feelings, prejudices, and fears. I am really surprised that this kind of thought is continuing, and it appears that the thoughts written here arise from some of you continuing to deal with people with these attitudes on a greater level than I understood.


You should not be surprized about it because this kind of thing is still happening, even in the Christian church . There is racism in the Christian music industry(which it is part of the church) because the people in the Christian music industry think that CCM and gospel should be separate and that some (not all) CCM people should not be with gospel music people. The same with gospel music people who should not be with CCM people.

I remember an incident when Donnie Mc Clurkin got flack from the Christian community when the song, "We Fall Down" was played on secular radio and gospel radio while Bob Carilie, who recorded the same song did not get flack from the same christian community.

This is not made up, this is no fairy tale, but it does happen, even in the body.

quote:

Certainly, I am very familiar with the bone-headed skin heads and their continued activities, with the wannabe Nazis of the 2000s, and with those who are Klanish, but common, everyday, ordinary people are doing this stuff? People who claim to be believers are doing this stuff? I ask because I would like to know. And is there any way that you can give examples without instigating in weaker minds of some readers more of the same actions?


Unfortnatly, yes. There are many incidents of skinhead activity in places here in Cali like the Inland Empire and the OC, which has a higher consentration of Skinheads. In fact, there was an incident this week when someone stolen some toys from a Salvation Army wherehouse and painted the letters, "KKK"

This stuff is not imaginary, but it happens, even though we made some gains in civil rights, it is still happening and it is getting worse.



amyk -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/23/2007 12:24:43 PM)

Oh, yes, the racism is still out there. I have an example from an email I received. The email contained what I guess was supposed to be a joke. The "writer" was an African-American girl (of course this is a fictional thing written in the first person). I don't think I should share the whole thing because it is very derogatory to African-Americans, but in it this girl was writing with horrendous spelling errors (and very stereotypical ones, like "ax" instead of "asked") but saying she got the highest score on the spelling test because she got extra points for being black and other things like this. (That gives you an idea of this email.) It ended with the "writer" saying she will be getting into medical school next, and that maybe she would be my doctor when Hillary takes over the healthcare in the U.S.

I did email the person who sent it to me and asked them not to send me emails like this in the future, as "I believe it is really hurtful to African-Americans, many of whom do work extremely hard to overcome such negative stereotypes and succeed in the United States."

But it was strange to get this email, because the person I got it from is a believer and a very kind person who cared for many, many years for a child who had extreme disabilities. So it was not like this was from some idiotic stranger. I think that is what shocked me as much as the email. I really think she just thought it was a funny joke and/or a dig at Democrats and liberals, and did not consider it to be racist or did not consider the implications of such an email. (I think she sent it out to a bunch of people, not just to me.)



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/23/2007 1:11:01 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gaylel1
You should not be surprized about it because this kind of thing is still happening, even in the Christian church . There is racism in the Christian music industry(which it is part of the church) because the people in the Christian music industry think that CCM and gospel should be separate and that some (not all) CCM people should not be with gospel music people. The same with gospel music people who should not be with CCM people.

I remember an incident when Donnie Mc Clurkin got flack from the Christian community when the song, "We Fall Down" was played on secular radio and gospel radio while Bob Carilie, who recorded the same song did not get flack from the same christian community.

This is not made up, this is no fairy tale, but it does happen, even in the body.
But I AM surprised. Maybe part of it is because of my age, my taste in music, and the fact that I don't attend churches, so I know nothing about problems in the music industry. I don't know who Donnie Mc Clurkin is nor why this person was harrassed for just singing a song. I would be very interested in hearing his rendition of the song, which has a special place in my heart. Why was he harrassed? In what way was he harrassed? By whom in the Christian community? Was he harrassed because of particular beliefs? (I ask because some people hate the song because the lesson it teaches hits them wrong, and they don't like Bob Carlisle for singing it either.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gaylel1
Unfortnatly, yes. There are many incidents of skinhead activity in places here in Cali like the Inland Empire and the OC, which has a higher consentration of Skinheads. In fact, there was an incident this week when someone stolen some toys from a Salvation Army wherehouse and painted the letters, "KKK"

This stuff is not imaginary, but it happens, even though we made some gains in civil rights, it is still happening and it is getting worse.

Of course, as I wrote above, I am not surprised by the KKK and Nazi wannabe jerks! But common, ordinary "Christians" who are like that? This is wnat I am questioning.

Now, of course, I know there are a few oddballs in the Christian community. There is one on CW right now, who had an interesting written conversation on CW that really raised both my eyebrows and ire. But that is One person among many. And certainly, I recognize that some people feel this way but at least have enough smarts to keep quiet about it, but blatant racism?



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/23/2007 1:14:02 PM)

Oh, and I must add that my family has certain shirttail relatives who feel like this and think they have the right to spread their poison.

________________________________

Okay. And I have now thought of some closer relatives who are like that, but I rarely see them, so I didn't think about them.



Memaw. -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/23/2007 2:50:13 PM)

I think in the actual body of Christ this stuff doesn't happen.

It is widespread in the secular crowd as much as it is even in the "call 'em Christian but they really aren't" group.

If a person is truly a follower of Christ, a disciple of His, they won't partake of this activity.

The world is full of people who are hurting so the only thing they know to do is lash out at someone else through verbal assault (jokes or not), regardless whether the person is of color or that person has a weight issue or that person has a physical handicap.

We are to be separate from the world so if you see someone who is poking "fun" at a minority, then you just have to understand this one thing:

That person is still in the world, whether they claim to be Christian or not and we can't change them, only God can, just as He changed us.

To get away from those types of people we would have to leave this earth.



rcjames -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/23/2007 3:12:26 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gaylel1
I remember an incident when Donnie Mc Clurkin got flack from the Christian community when the song, "We Fall Down" was played on secular radio and gospel radio while Bob Carilie, who recorded the same song did not get flack from the same christian community.

This is not made up, this is no fairy tale, but it does happen, even in the body. [/font]


Alright, say what you posted is the Gospel truth; where is the racism in it?

Racism being described as;

1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

Thanks
RC



zamdad -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/23/2007 5:53:33 PM)

quote:

Are people still telling/emailing racist jokes and making racist comments? I can't remember the last time anyone attempted such a thing. I am So Sorry that it appears to be so blatantly continuing.


Yes, unfortunately it still happens. It happens in every pigment. And yes, unfortunately, there are still a few people around who profess the name of Christ, but still have hate in their heart for anyone of a different skin tone than them. Yet, there seem to be fewer each day.

The place where I have seen racism played out in its truest form is in prison. I used to work in a close security prison. Inmates divided themselves up by color. Most of it has to do with gangs. But, when you look at who belongs to what gangs and what their beliefs are, skin tone is the largest determining factor. Minds can be changed, pimentation can't. I have seen some of the most hard core white kids who, back on the block, either hung out with black guys or spoke and acted like their favorite black rap stars. When they get to prison, the black gangs reject them. It takes time for them to change their characteristics, the walk and the talk. But, it doesn't take too terribly long before they are doing whatever it takes to be accepted and to prove themselves to a group they can belong to.

I saw the same thing happen with an Eskimo kid in Alaska. He had been raised in a native village. He got into trouble as a teen and sent to the city to live in foster care. He was fascinated with rap and the gangster lifestyle. After he'd been in the city for a couple of years, I happened to be the booking officer when he was arrested on a warrant. In the past, he had a native accent. During the booking procedure, he sounded black. His accent had changed, his vernacular had changed. He soon found himself looking for a group to belong to. His native accent returned. His freinds were all native and he began to speak negatively of all races outside his own kind.

The sad part about our prison system is that most offenders are released with little to no support in the community. They bring their instutional racism out into the community with them and begin trying to spread it to others who feel they have something to be angry about. In addition, it's rather unfortunate that prison culture has been so glorified and glamorized in this nation. Far too many young men and women no longer fear going to prison, rather they see it as a badge of honor.

And we, Christians, have the solution to the longing these people feel to belong to a group. Only, we get so busy being ourselves and living life at the ever increasing pace of the world that we miss the oportunities God places before us each and everyday to disciple others.



GregandJenny -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/23/2007 9:54:03 PM)

quote:

I remember an incident when Donnie Mc Clurkin got flack from the Christian community when the song, "We Fall Down" was played on secular radio and gospel radio while Bob Carilie, who recorded the same song did not get flack from the same christian community.


This is interesting to me. "got flack from the Christian community." Who represents the Christian community? You can't take a statement from one person and act as if they speak for or represent a whole group EVEN if they say they do. Just like Al Sharpton or Jesse Jackson doesn't represent Black Christians in America.

GH



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