RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (Full Version)

All Forums >> [Theology] >> Morality & Ethics



Message

DaveW -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/27/2007 9:40:48 AM)

I think a working def of racism would be good.

Difficult to come up with, though.

For me, racism is a personal negative bias against someone of a different race.

"Race" being one of the following:

East Asian
Caucasian
Black African
Australoid
American Indian

Just those 5, no more. So if you are English, discriminating against Irish is not racist.



Memaw. -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/27/2007 10:13:27 AM)

quote:

Australoid

I don't even know what this is.



SonInMe1 -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/27/2007 10:19:16 AM)

To me racism is....

making a decision based on race.

Prejudice....

inability to make a decision unless race is involved.

Ignorance...

thinking race is important

Reverse racism...

hypocracy and vengence.

conservatives as racist...

racist statment

whites as the only race that is racist...

racist statement.

groups dedicated to one race....

racism



GregandJenny -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/27/2007 10:48:12 AM)

rac·ism /ˈreɪsɪzəm/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[rey-siz-uhm] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.
2. a policy, system of government, etc., based upon or fostering such a doctrine; discrimination.
3. hatred or intolerance of another race or other races.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/racism

Heres the definition I have known my whole life of what racism is. In my opinion racism has to have a few characteristics.

1. It has to be intentional.
2. It has to promote superiority of one race over another.
3. It has to discriminate solely on race not anything else. IN other words If I say I don't like those black kids over there, using black as a disciptor doesn't make one racist, say if the real reason they don't like those kids over their because they are gangsters.

the final characterist in my opinion of racism is that there is a strong passion from the racist to push down and step on the victim.



Just something to think about.

GH



GregandJenny -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/27/2007 10:50:36 AM)

SonInMe,
may I humbly ask where you are getting your definition of what racism is?

GH



Matt Smith -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/27/2007 2:06:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: zamdad

Matt Smith, I have not addressed the study you cited because I don't want to take the time. One of the reasons I addressed you in particular with regard to this topic is that you have indicated to me in private conversations that you have felt discriminated against and that you come here to this site to educate those of us who don't agree with your lifestyle. You have addressed the matter with regard to your growing up Jewish. You have not disclosed to anyone here your sexual orientation. That's why I view your posts with suspicion. You have an agenda. We all have an agenda, but your is contrary to what this site is about and you seem to only be here to direct believers away from Christ.

I say this knowing that I could get TOS'd. But, this is exactly why the issue of racism gets confused with prejudice and discrimination. Too many are wanting to take the focus off their sin and stir the pot on other issues so they don't have to change anything about self.


Zamdad - Several things. One, I can't believe you'd criticize me for a "generalizing" post when you're choosing to ignore the specifics I've been posting all along, and instead just posting your own generalizations about academia.

Two - I've been asked by the admins not to talk about sexual orientation, so I don't. That's not part of my "agenda" here. I can understand how this may have been confusing, since you and I have discussed sexuality at length in the past, and you know I have strong feelings about it. Maybe you can see my posts in a new light now that you know why I've avoided the topic.

Three - While I'm personally not a Christian, I'm not trying to drive anyone away from Christianity. I've never in my life hoped that anyone would abandon their religion.

Four - where did you get the idea that racism isn't a challenge for me? Or that other challenges won't come up for me while we're focusing on racism? I'm not trying to direct focus only to other people. I thought I said, much of my growth on racism was after someone pointed out my own ignorance... and I'm sure I've got plenty left to be pointed out. This is not a "safe" topic for me.

Matt

PS -- Please call me Matt.



Matt Smith -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/27/2007 2:51:13 PM)

I hear people defining racism at the individual level. What about the systemic level?

I'd be interested in participating in a group effort to define racism, for the purposes of this discussion. How would an effort like that work?

Matt



ObviousLee -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/27/2007 3:59:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Matt Smith

I hear people defining racism at the individual level. What about the systemic level?

I'd be interested in participating in a group effort to define racism, for the purposes of this discussion. How would an effort like that work?

Matt

I think the term racism has too many variations to imply that anyone is not on topic of thread.

*My comment is not at all aimed at you. I quoted you for the sake of relevancy to the various comments made in relation to the term racism. That being said, I would welcome anyones own interpretation along with an ensuing discussion.



DaveW -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/27/2007 5:07:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Memaw.
quote:

Australoid

I don't even know what this is.
The Aboriginal people of Australia.



Memaw. -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/27/2007 7:57:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DaveW

quote:

ORIGINAL: Memaw.
quote:

Australoid

I don't even know what this is.
The Aboriginal people of Australia.


Oh, ok...but wouldn't they be considered "Natives" to Australia...similar to the Native Americans?



SonInMe1 -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/27/2007 10:10:17 PM)

quote:

SonInMe,
may I humbly ask where you are getting your definition of what racism is?


from here...

quote:

To me racism is....


Its my personal revelation. When people base any opinion they have solely on race...its racist. Its also prejudicial and ignorant.

If there is anything I have learned its this...people tend to be people no matter their culture, national origin, religion or race. We really..are all the exact sameness....we all need Jesus...desperatly.

Any percieved differences are indeed carnal in origin and from satan.



GregandJenny -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/27/2007 10:41:51 PM)

Until we can come to an agreeable definition of racism, we will NEVER be able to have a productive conversation.

GH



WhiteWindWarrior -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/27/2007 10:50:21 PM)

Had a chance to watch a great video a few years ago that dealt with the origins of the various human species. The anthropologists journey over many years has led to a very interesting conclusion about race and its origins. The long and short of is, extremes on both side of the color spectrum black and white are not the norm. The normal color is more olive skinned in origins. A lengthly and I think thoughtful look into this arena revealed to me what I have always believed. If you take two colors the same whatever they are and match them together you will give off in progeny any possible combination of color. Not regularly, but often enough that different colors will continue to evolve.

So it seems to me, and I don't profess to be an anthropologist, that most of the racism that comes about is from the natural tendency for people of like color to gather together out of a sense of need or familial ties and a tendency to exclude those of a different color. Within this subculture there is the tendency to cluster around class, economic, educational (or lack of) religious and regional lines.

This is compounded by forces beyond the control of those groups from within (cultural) and outside their own group ie, slave traders, the rich and powerful, land barons, financial entities etc.

My experience in the military many years ago and more recently in prison ministry in state prisons the last 5 years is that the underlying element in all human relationships is respect. The lack of it can be very toxic and race among other things can then take on an explosive element fueled by those on the sidelines, the ignorant, or just plain old troublemakers.

I love all races...I confess as I approach my last few years I enjoy diversity more than ever...I mean God made us all you gotta love it! Enjoy...[:)] Not much patience for whiners about their condition though, some of the proudest people I have ever known are people of color, great people, gentle and hardworking people, people that leave a mark on this earth.



ObviousLee -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/28/2007 12:05:21 AM)

I think the title of the thread leaves the subject fairly wide open to where any negative race related issue applies. I think trying to get too specific with the term racism leads to problems. For instance, when attempting to pinpoint the 5 racial groups, this leaves out Hispanic and East Indian who are generally considered Caucasoid, yet are discriminated as a separate racial group than White.

When referring to Christians I don't think it's a matter of forgive and forget. Obviously, we all need to forgive. But because negative matters of skin color currently exist in the United States, it doesn't make sense to me to suggest one should forget and move on. I don't feel it's grounds for a non-White Christian to become bitter towards Whites. I'm White myself, and certainly do not want anyone bitter towards me. But it seems that in many of these related threads, because one doesn't see negative race related issues, it's something we all need to shove to the side.



DaveW -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/28/2007 6:24:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Memaw.

Oh, ok...but wouldn't they be considered "Natives" to Australia...similar to the Native Americans?
They are. But they are geneticaly different enough to be considered a seperate race. They are an offshoot of caucasian just as Native Americans are a seperate race but an offshoot of the East Asian/Mongol race.



Lapidoth -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/28/2007 10:48:52 AM)

quote:

Until we can come to an agreeable definition of racism, we will NEVER be able to have a productive conversation.

GH


racism = violation of God's Word.
Rebellion, rejection, lack of loving one another.



DaveW -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/28/2007 12:58:58 PM)

Yeah, that doesn't work.

If I were to curse out my parents, have an affair or rob the corner convienience store it would all be a "violation of God's Word, rebellion, rejection, and a lack of loving one another." It would, however, have nothing to do with racisim.



zamdad -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/28/2007 7:54:12 PM)

quote:

Zamdad - Several things. One, I can't believe you'd criticize me for a "generalizing" post when you're choosing to ignore the specifics I've been posting all along, and instead just posting your own generalizations about academia


Matt, I can take the criticism about generalizing. It's something each and everyone of us is guilty of. I stated that I was not going to take the time to read the studies you referanced. I am not saying you don't understand racism. I questioned your perspective on it wondering if you were identifying discrimination for your orientation as being the same as being discriminated against because of skin tone.

That being said and getting back to the more recent discussion about what is racism as opposed to what is prejudice or driscrimination, it seems that it's easier to label someone a racist than to deal with issues where one feels discriminated against. As someone else may have pointed out, if one of us were to see a group of black kids wearing clothing, making gestures and possibly verbalizing statements that made one think they were gang bangers, the discremination and prejudgment is not based on skin color. It's based on putting the facts together to form an opinion; an opinion that may be signalling danger and fight or flight. Most of us would draw the same conclusion if the gang bangers were white, hispanic, asian or martian.

IN my professional training I have learned much about racial profiling. It's something that law enforcement officers are not supposed to do. Yet, it's done all the time. Not by race, but by the way a person dresses and carries themself. It's something we all do whether we realize it or not. Yet, when someone is confronted for behavior or some type of offense, it's easier to accuse to the person doing the confrontation of being a racist than it is to have to face self and change behavior.



lexie -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/28/2007 11:15:20 PM)

quote:

Yet, when someone is confronted for behavior or some type of offense, it's easier to accuse to the person doing the confrontation of being a racist than it is to have to face self and change behavior.


A good point. I got in the elevator the other day with 5 black teenage males. I'll admit it made me a little nervous. It's not because they are black though, it's because they were teenage males, who were looking me up and down, and I am a small girl (compared to them). Yet if I let on that I was nervous, wouldn't anyone's first assumption be that I was nervous because I was in a group of black males?



Covaan_Meshuga -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/28/2007 11:58:21 PM)

Oh, what a pretty baby! Three pretty babies on one page! Nice!
.
.
.
.
<- Not this one! She's a little SNOT AGATE!!!



GregandJenny -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/29/2007 12:20:03 PM)

quote:

A good point. I got in the elevator the other day with 5 black teenage males. I'll admit it made me a little nervous. It's not because they are black though, it's because they were teenage males, who were looking me up and down, and I am a small girl (compared to them). Yet if I let on that I was nervous, wouldn't anyone's first assumption be that I was nervous because I was in a group of black males?


This is a very good point. I have been and probably will also be hesitant to use the word racism because it's a very strong and damning word. I like many on these boards agree that it does exist, but I don't believe that it exists in the form and function it used to. I believe that it had changed to be more prejudice and stereotyping.

It doesn't do black people or any people that much good when they indeed confirm the stereo types that people have of that culture, especially when negative. When people see a black person acting like a gangster time and time again, what do you think they will start thinking, not based on a statistic, not based on a movie, not based on anything else but the actions of some, and then they begin to pre-judge all blacks based on the collection of information. Sorta of like a hypothesis.

Are these people racist? Nope, they are prejudice. Is that wrong yeas, but yuo have to understand that based on the collection of information they are probably making an informed decision, and it's not their job to change the out come, it's our jobs as minorities to change the outcome. We have to start today by living right. There is a long way to go, but we need today to be better than yesterday and we need tomorrow to be better than today.


Blessings in HIS name,
GH



Matt Smith -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/29/2007 1:15:23 PM)

Zamdad, thanks for clearing that up. I had no intention of going anywhere near the topic of sexuality. And I hope I've never said that any two kinds of discrimination are "the same." Taking my religion/race example, I can find many things in common, but lots of differences too. I'd be the last one to say they're just the same thing.

I agree - there are other cues than skin color, and people respond to them.

I also wouldn't rule out that skin color can be one cue that works together with others.

I'm aware of it being one cue for me. I've gotten used to the idea that Black guys are supposed to be dangerous. Personally, if I see a group of young Black guys acting macho, vs. young White guys acting macho, my first instinct would be to feel more threatened by the Black guys.

I've learned not to rely on that first instinct, because I know better. And I'm ashamed of it. But it's still there. And I expect most or all of us have instincts like that -- common ideas or stereotypes that we've internalized... so they're automatic, despite our best intentions.

I've heard it described as a recording that plays over and over in your mind, repeating all the stereotypes you've internalized over the course of a lifetime. And the ongoing challenge is to notice the messages it's playing, and decide for yourself whether they're valid and whether they should be influencing you.

Not sure if this idea is too novel to introduce so quickly. Hope not.

Matt



GregandJenny -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/29/2007 1:44:12 PM)

quote:

ersonally, if I see a group of young Black guys acting macho, vs. young White guys acting macho, my first instinct would be to feel more threatened by the Black guys.


Why is that though??



SonInMe1 -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/29/2007 9:35:48 PM)

Here in south Florida it is a common sight to see a white man driving a truck with a number of hispanics or blacks in the back, landscaping crews.

A guy at work has a solution to this "problem".

He is black and he is starting his own landscaping business.



zamdad -> RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread (11/29/2007 10:11:53 PM)

Over my career I have developed a theory that there are many who don't want racism to go away. For many, there is power and/or profit in victimhood. For others it means not having to face the demons within.

As a probation officer in a mostly white community, I was assigned several black probationers. At first, when finding these probationers in violation for possesion of drugs, weapons, or as a result of new law violations I was called racist for confronting them. With all of my clients I develpoed good relationships. Even after a good relationship was developed, if caught in a violation, the offender would begin to state that the only reason I was coming after them was that I was racist. Even in court I would get called racist.

Over the years I've had the opportunity to talk to these same individuals about their comments toward me. As I had suspected, they told me that they said whatever they had to trying to get out of trouble at that moment. One woman shared with me how her use of the word racist got anyone who tried to get in her business out of her business quickly. While no one in the community like the behavior she and her family were engaging in, they had even more dislike for being called and potentially labled a racist. She said it allowed her to continue her criminal behavior. She came to Christ while in jail and eventually, after truly turning her life around, admitted to me that she knows very few people who are actually racist, but using the word got people out of her affairs and allowed her to continue in her sin.

The other side of this that I see is people who gain power supposedly representing the oppressed. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton come to mind. They point the accusing finger whenever there is an appearance that someone has been picked on because of race. They get lots of media attention and bring in large revenues for themselves. How much of this revenue goes they represent? Jesse and Al have gained power riding the coat tails of the civil rights movement. If racism no longer exists, they have to find another cause to feed their wallets and their ego's.



Page: <<   < prev  3 4 [5] 6 7   next >   >>



Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.5 ANSI