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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/10/2007 1:27:05 AM
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Matt Smith
Posts: 57
Joined: 4/13/2005
From: Austin, TX
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quote:
ORIGINAL: GregandJenny
Matt,
What are you talking about. Some of your posts are so vague they don't make any sense to me. For instance the last one, talking about messages influencing you and how subtle they are. What do you mean? What racist messages are you talking about. Please stop being so vague, and give clear cut examples.
gh
Oh. Sorry about that.
Lots of messages have to do with treating stereotypes as something that should actually determine our expectations for individuals. I mean, that's pretty much the definition of the word prejudice.
So for example, Black folks are sometimes described as "articulate," as though this is something worth mentioning. That's not a word you hear to describe people much, and in fact I'd be surprised to hear it used for anyone except a Black person (which I've gotten used to). And this is what I mean by subtle. The difference in usage suggests that it's remarkable for a Black person to speak well, but unremarkable for a White person.
I get where the stereotype comes from. The dialect called ebonics or Black English Variant exists, and it's associated with Black people for a reason. The unfortunate message of describing a Black person as "articulate" is that the stereotype should be expected to apply to all Black people unless they demonstrate otherwise. And obviously people have internalized this, or there wouldn't be any noticeable difference in how they use the word "articulate."
RC, I guess this addresses your point, too. I'm not saying stereotypes have zero relation to statistics about certain populations. There's often some truth to them. But unfortunately, this often translates into prejudiced judgment of individuals. And also unfortunately, any stereotypical or statistical differences often get magnified in people's minds, because they get reinforced every time the stereotype is perpetuated... which happens a lot!
Best,
Matt
PS -- I know a lot's being discussed right now. I'll try to make time to catch up and keep up, rather than leaving people hanging.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/10/2007 8:14:18 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3397
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From: my mom by God
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When is bad grammar a "new language"?
I tried that with an english teacher...she didn't buy it.
There are plenty of everyday language uses by all races that are poor grammar...I am sure I have used poor grammar myself. While being perfect in grammar...and enunciation....isn't neccesary to converse, a level of each is.
If you cannot form words together in a comprehesive way then there are jobs and opportunities not open to you. It has nothing to do with race. It has to do with excuses and putting your comfort zone over common sence.
There is a person at work who adamently does not like another person at work because they are both black and one speaks clearly. The one who speaks clearly is called an uncle Tom.
That...is prejudice coupled with ignorance.
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/10/2007 10:39:33 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5660
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Matt Smith
RC, I guess this addresses your point, too. I'm not saying stereotypes have zero relation to statistics about certain populations. There's often some truth to them. But unfortunately, this often translates into prejudiced judgment of individuals. And also unfortunately, any stereotypical or statistical differences often get magnified in people's minds, because they get reinforced every time the stereotype is perpetuated... which happens a lot!
Yea sterotype vs. statistics.
Question, if someone travels to Miami and reqauest a motel, but not one in Overtown are they being racist, prdjudice, or just responding to statistics.
The same would go for South Dallas, or the 4th Ward in Houston, and many mnay other areas of extrememly high crime; who just happen to be predominately black.
Thanks
RC
< Message edited by rcjames -- 12/10/2007 10:47:08 AM >
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/10/2007 10:51:05 AM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
Joined: 12/8/2007
From: Augusta, GA
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Using statistics to make personal choices about one's safety, etc. is one thing, but using stereotypes to automatically assume something about a person is another. I believe that's where it becomes the wrong thing to do.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/10/2007 11:01:01 AM
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zamdad
Posts: 1697
Joined: 4/8/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Using statistics to make personal choices about one's safety, etc. is one thing, but using stereotypes to automatically assume something about a person is another. I believe that's where it becomes the wrong thing to do.
Are you saying you don't? Does your gut ever tell you not to enter a situation because your assessment of a person or group of people fit some image that indicates trouble? If you have the means of completely avoiding stereotypes, please let us know how to achieve this.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/10/2007 12:06:58 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4099
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From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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quote:
ORIGINAL: SonInMe1
When is bad grammar a "new language"? When it has influences of other languages showing up. Ebonics as a dialect of American English shows sentance structure and pronounciation marks of several west African native languages. When there is enough of that, linguists define it as a new dialect.
Along the US border with Mexico, there is a group of dialects known as "Spanglish," "TexMex" or "Tejano." It is a mixture of American English and Mexican Spanish, both in vocabulary and syntax. It is more than just "bad grammer." Yiddish and Ladino both fall into this category as well.
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/10/2007 4:30:11 PM
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McFatty
Posts: 1084
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From: Augusta, GA
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
quote:
ORIGINAL: McFatty
Using statistics to make personal choices about one's safety, etc. is one thing, but using stereotypes to automatically assume something about a person is another. I believe that's where it becomes the wrong thing to do.
Are you saying you don't? Does your gut ever tell you not to enter a situation because your assessment of a person or group of people fit some image that indicates trouble? If you have the means of completely avoiding stereotypes, please let us know how to achieve this.
I'm not saying I never do it. I'm saying I feel bad when I do and I try more and more not to. I'm talking about assuming that someone's trouble just because of their race or what not. Things they cannot control.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/10/2007 6:34:50 PM
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zamdad
Posts: 1697
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quote:
I'm not saying I never do it. I'm saying I feel bad when I do and I try more and more not to. I'm talking about assuming that someone's trouble just because of their race or what not. Things they cannot control.
As has already been discussed in this thread, perhaps it's not the color of someones skin that may cause you to feel that they are trouble. Perhaps it's the way they're dressed, the way they carry themselves, language they're using, gestures, etc. All of us are guilty of making judgement when assessing a situation. Unfortunately, all too often we identify people by their race. This gives ammunition to those who perpetuate racism by playing the victim card and making promises to those seeking entitlement.
Why do you feel bad? If your gut is telling you that someone or some given situation is trouble, trust your gut. Don't feel bad about it. While no one can control the color of their skin, they can control their emotions and their behavior.
_____________________________
The two hardest things to handle: failure and success.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/11/2007 3:48:16 AM
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McFatty
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Because I've come to the idea that I should give everyone the benefit of the doubt in most situations. As for gut feelings, I feel bad because I sometimes slip up and assume someone might like this movie or that song or the other television show because of their skin color, so I might turn the dial in order to fulfill the preconception (often wrong) that I've made in my mind, often without even realizing it is a preconception. More often than not, I find out that the person in question has completely different tastes than I thought. I feel bad about things like that. I don't often encounter people who will treat me in a harmful way, and the ones I do I certainly can't tell by their dress who they are. I guess I'm a pretty intimidating guy in my own right, though.
_____________________________
“Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things.” – Philippians 4:8
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/11/2007 7:42:09 AM
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lexie
Posts: 3047
Joined: 6/27/2005
From: Toronto
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quote:
When there is enough of that, linguists define it as a new dialect.
Jamaican patois (or patwa) is a recognized dialect of English, with African influences. Yet most in North America hear it and just assume that the person has bad grammar. Jamaicans of all colours speak this dialect wherever you go (except in schools and government).
quote:
The same would go for South Dallas, or the 4th Ward in Houston, and many mnay other areas of extrememly high crime; who just happen to be predominately black.
Interesting thought. I have stayed in a particular run-down, high crime, all black neighbourhood in the US on more than one occasion and never have had a problem. I've encountered nothing but warm, welcoming people. Never seen any of the crime either.
Mind you, I live in the same type of place in Toronto, and again have never seen the problems that other people expect to see in the area.
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I want to be more than an ordinary servant.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/17/2007 2:18:46 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3397
Joined: 4/16/2005
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At work, the people I work with know I do not like their music. What they don't know is its not the music as much as it is the volume. Its loud where we work and to hear the music they turn it up so there is just that much more noise.
So they sought one day to "appease" me by putting country music on. They are young and mostly non-white and I am older and white so I guess...they assume I like country music.
LOL
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/17/2007 11:12:19 AM
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lexie
Posts: 3047
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From: Toronto
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quote:
They are young and mostly non-white and I am older and white so I guess...they assume I like country music
Oh, so I shouldn't be assuming that anymore?
LOL....my (black) husband loves listening to country music...he knows much more about it than I do! Maybe they secretly like it and are using you as the reason to listen to it!
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I want to be more than an ordinary servant.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/17/2007 1:32:38 PM
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DaveW
Posts: 4099
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: MD suburbs of Washington DC
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To me, blacks listening to country music makes as much sense as Jews listening to music from the third reich...
_____________________________
Avatar is Saphira 5 months and Louvena at 23 months!
We are now grandparents TWICE!!
====================================
Our CD is now available here:
http://cdbaby.com/cd/dswaggoner
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/17/2007 1:46:51 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5660
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
To me, blacks listening to country music makes as much sense as Jews listening to music from the third reich...
Why?
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/17/2007 2:25:16 PM
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wunderschon
Posts: 96
Joined: 4/27/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
To me, blacks listening to country music makes as much sense as Jews listening to music from the third reich...
Say what??!! What is there in country music (I am only familiar with classic country, I don't know about new country) that would be inherently offensive to blacks? I don't mean as a matter of taste, I mean fundamentally offensive. And why did no one tell Charley Pride about it? Would metal be offensive also, as some skinhead groups have appropriated that form of music?
_____________________________
For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/18/2007 1:44:53 AM
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PaleHawkWoman
Posts: 501
Joined: 7/14/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: jbow
quote:
REGAINING THE STOLEN LAND HAS BEEN THE OBJECTIVE OF MANY BLACKS
Native American's only hope is to assimilate, along with everyone else in this country including the people of African desecnt.
Are you kidding? PLEASE tell me why I should do such a thing, rejecting who God made me to be and trying to be what I'm not. Considering that Native Americans developed 66% of the world's food crops, as well as cotton and tobacco, and much of the world's medicines, I should think you would have more respect for us Indian folks. If you read history, you'll find that the basic format of the US Constitution was developed from the Constitution of the Iroquois Confederacy, which has been a continuous instrument of governance on this continent for over 800 yrs. Our women were never chattel but were full citizens of our societies who voted, participated in public debate, negotiated treaties, controlled tribal resources, owned their own homes, and married/divorced as they deemed fit. There was no poverty as all equally shared in times of plenty and want, and no man profitted at the expense of his neighbor. Widows and orphans were never left to the mercy of the streets nor abused by their neighbors. Children were not hung for stealing a loaf of bread, and would not have been left in such want as to have to streal anyway. There is no profanity in any Native language, and it would never have occured to use the name of God as an expletive to any Native American. There was no pornography either, and pedophilia was unknown.
Yeah, we fought each other, but so did European nations and provinces within nations. And no, we didn't have metallurgy to make swords, guns, and other means of better killing each other. No culture is the be-all and end-all, and each has its pros and cons, but don't insult those of other cultures by saying our only hope is to assimilate. Take a closer look, dude... you might find we Native Americans have quite alot of good cultural qualities to emulate and assimilate into your own culture. Of course, you'd actually have to spend time with us and get to know us as people rather than stereotypes in order to determine that...
I am proud of my people, and do not consider myself or my people to be inferior to anyone else. Different, yes, but equal in stature.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/18/2007 8:13:10 AM
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SonInMe1
Posts: 3397
Joined: 4/16/2005
From: my mom by God
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yada yada yada
_____________________________
You adulterous people, don't you know that friendship with the world is hatred toward God? Anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God.
James 4:4
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/18/2007 11:49:44 AM
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ObviousLee
Posts: 195
Joined: 6/15/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Over my career I have developed a theory that there are many who don't want racism to go away. For many, there is power and/or profit in victimhood. For others it means not having to face the demons within.
As a probation officer in a mostly white community, I was assigned several black probationers. At first, when finding these probationers in violation for possesion of drugs, weapons, or as a result of new law violations I was called racist for confronting them. With all of my clients I develpoed good relationships. Even after a good relationship was developed, if caught in a violation, the offender would begin to state that the only reason I was coming after them was that I was racist. Even in court I would get called racist.
Over the years I've had the opportunity to talk to these same individuals about their comments toward me. As I had suspected, they told me that they said whatever they had to trying to get out of trouble at that moment. One woman shared with me how her use of the word racist got anyone who tried to get in her business out of her business quickly. While no one in the community like the behavior she and her family were engaging in, they had even more dislike for being called and potentially labled a racist. She said it allowed her to continue her criminal behavior. She came to Christ while in jail and eventually, after truly turning her life around, admitted to me that she knows very few people who are actually racist, but using the word got people out of her affairs and allowed her to continue in her sin.
The other side of this that I see is people who gain power supposedly representing the oppressed. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton come to mind. They point the accusing finger whenever there is an appearance that someone has been picked on because of race. They get lots of media attention and bring in large revenues for themselves. How much of this revenue goes they represent? Jesse and Al have gained power riding the coat tails of the civil rights movement. If racism no longer exists, they have to find another cause to feed their wallets and their ego's.
This is no doubt true, but the problem lies in using this fact to claim racism doesn't exist (I'm not saying you're doing that), or down-play it to any degree. The fact that some, or many use the racist card to their advantage can easily be used to distract away from unwilling victims. In addition, the dynamics involved with racism differs with each racial or ethnic group.
_____________________________
The buck stops here!
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/18/2007 10:02:19 PM
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Acts29
Posts: 476
Joined: 1/14/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: ObviousLee
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Over my career I have developed a theory that there are many who don't want racism to go away. For many, there is power and/or profit in victimhood. For others it means not having to face the demons within.
As a probation officer in a mostly white community, I was assigned several black probationers. At first, when finding these probationers in violation for possesion of drugs, weapons, or as a result of new law violations I was called racist for confronting them. With all of my clients I develpoed good relationships. Even after a good relationship was developed, if caught in a violation, the offender would begin to state that the only reason I was coming after them was that I was racist. Even in court I would get called racist.
Over the years I've had the opportunity to talk to these same individuals about their comments toward me. As I had suspected, they told me that they said whatever they had to trying to get out of trouble at that moment. One woman shared with me how her use of the word racist got anyone who tried to get in her business out of her business quickly. While no one in the community like the behavior she and her family were engaging in, they had even more dislike for being called and potentially labled a racist. She said it allowed her to continue her criminal behavior. She came to Christ while in jail and eventually, after truly turning her life around, admitted to me that she knows very few people who are actually racist, but using the word got people out of her affairs and allowed her to continue in her sin.
The other side of this that I see is people who gain power supposedly representing the oppressed. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton come to mind. They point the accusing finger whenever there is an appearance that someone has been picked on because of race. They get lots of media attention and bring in large revenues for themselves. How much of this revenue goes they represent? Jesse and Al have gained power riding the coat tails of the civil rights movement. If racism no longer exists, they have to find another cause to feed their wallets and their ego's.
This is no doubt true, but the problem lies in using this fact to claim racism doesn't exist (I'm not saying you're doing that), or down-play it to any degree. The fact that some, or many use the racist card to their advantage can easily be used to distract away from unwilling victims. In addition, the dynamics involved with racism differs with each racial or ethnic group.
I think the race card has been used falsely. Which has now created the situation, crying wolf too many times, to the point it has lost it legitimacy (sp).
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/18/2007 11:58:13 PM
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ObviousLee
Posts: 195
Joined: 6/15/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Acts29
quote:
ORIGINAL: ObviousLee
quote:
ORIGINAL: zamdad
Over my career I have developed a theory that there are many who don't want racism to go away. For many, there is power and/or profit in victimhood. For others it means not having to face the demons within.
As a probation officer in a mostly white community, I was assigned several black probationers. At first, when finding these probationers in violation for possesion of drugs, weapons, or as a result of new law violations I was called racist for confronting them. With all of my clients I develpoed good relationships. Even after a good relationship was developed, if caught in a violation, the offender would begin to state that the only reason I was coming after them was that I was racist. Even in court I would get called racist.
Over the years I've had the opportunity to talk to these same individuals about their comments toward me. As I had suspected, they told me that they said whatever they had to trying to get out of trouble at that moment. One woman shared with me how her use of the word racist got anyone who tried to get in her business out of her business quickly. While no one in the community like the behavior she and her family were engaging in, they had even more dislike for being called and potentially labled a racist. She said it allowed her to continue her criminal behavior. She came to Christ while in jail and eventually, after truly turning her life around, admitted to me that she knows very few people who are actually racist, but using the word got people out of her affairs and allowed her to continue in her sin.
The other side of this that I see is people who gain power supposedly representing the oppressed. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton come to mind. They point the accusing finger whenever there is an appearance that someone has been picked on because of race. They get lots of media attention and bring in large revenues for themselves. How much of this revenue goes they represent? Jesse and Al have gained power riding the coat tails of the civil rights movement. If racism no longer exists, they have to find another cause to feed their wallets and their ego's.
This is no doubt true, but the problem lies in using this fact to claim racism doesn't exist (I'm not saying you're doing that), or down-play it to any degree. The fact that some, or many use the racist card to their advantage can easily be used to distract away from unwilling victims. In addition, the dynamics involved with racism differs with each racial or ethnic group.
I think the race card has been used falsely. Which has now created the situation, crying wolf too many times, to the point it has lost it legitimacy (sp).
I was actually using the term many quite generously in favor of the individual quoted. I don't believe it's nearly enough to make any justification in tossing aside the reality of racism. It actually doesn't really matter how many cry wolf. There's still legitimate victims. Most of the time it's high profile speakers that are used as examples to make these claims. Either that or isolated instances. What about other minority groups like Native Americans and Asians? Do you think they cry wolf?
_____________________________
The buck stops here!
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/29/2007 1:42:30 AM
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PaleHawkWoman
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Oh please, everybody does! We all play race cards from time to time when we're being selfish, cowardly, or stupidly prideful.
I hear other Native folks blame white folks or other non-Natives for some failing or hardship in their own lives and while there might be some truth to it, it's still a cop-out most of the time. I'm not talking about overt injustice, racism, or plain mistreatment here- those are very real things which DO happen daily. I'm talking about using those things as an excuse for being a jerk, being a failure, being an alcoholic/addict, spouse/child abuser, losing one's temper and getting fired/quitting one's job, or being a criminal.
No matter how badly somebody treats me or what kind of obstacles or hardships they put in my way(or dump on me), I am still responsible for how I respond to things and how I conduct myself. Whatever success I want in life is up to me, not somebody who thinks I'm lower than the dirt or who may have preconceived notions about who and what I am.
Some days I wish people could grow up enough to see each other as human beings regardless of race/ethnicity/cultural differences.
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/29/2007 10:55:19 AM
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rcjames
Posts: 5660
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
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quote:
ORIGINAL: DaveW
To me, blacks listening to country music makes as much sense as Jews listening to music from the third reich...
Dave, that seems to be a prejudicial statement. Are you trying to paint all folks that like Country Western as racist.
If I am missing your point please enlighten me.
Thanks
RC
_____________________________
Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/29/2007 11:56:40 AM
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ObviousLee
Posts: 195
Joined: 6/15/2006
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quote:
ORIGINAL: PaleHawkWoman
Oh please, everybody does! We all play race cards from time to time when we're being selfish, cowardly, or stupidly prideful.
I hear other Native folks blame white folks or other non-Natives for some failing or hardship in their own lives and while there might be some truth to it, it's still a cop-out most of the time. I'm not talking about overt injustice, racism, or plain mistreatment here- those are very real things which DO happen daily. I'm talking about using those things as an excuse for being a jerk, being a failure, being an alcoholic/addict, spouse/child abuser, losing one's temper and getting fired/quitting one's job, or being a criminal.
No matter how badly somebody treats me or what kind of obstacles or hardships they put in my way(or dump on me), I am still responsible for how I respond to things and how I conduct myself. Whatever success I want in life is up to me, not somebody who thinks I'm lower than the dirt or who may have preconceived notions about who and what I am.
Some days I wish people could grow up enough to see each other as human beings regardless of race/ethnicity/cultural differences.
Yes, on a more individual level, we all do. Yes, we're all responsible for our own actions and attitudes. There always be individuals who will not grow up and look at people as humans instead of a race. I myself am not really referring to people on an individual basis. I'm referring to a more politically oriented racist structure in our society. I think when we refer to racism and/or prejudice, it gets mixed up between those in power who practice a form of racism, and Pete from Hoboken. There may never be a thing we can do to change Pete from Hoboken's attitude about other races. However, the (active) racism practiced by those in control (media, etc.) has a potential for change. As far as their individual viewpoints? Only God knows.
If a neighbor hates my lawn he has a right to do so. If he takes action, and tramples on it whenever he gets a chance, I can take action to prevent it. If he stops that's all I can really expect. He may continue to hate (have prejudice against) it.
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The buck stops here!
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RE: A Matter of Color... Skin Color - One Stop Thread - 12/29/2007 2:15:07 PM
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rcjames
Posts: 5660
Joined: 7/15/2005
From: Oklahoma
Status: offline
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Do you think that government rules and private thought that blacks and other colored need an advantage to be able to compete is racism?
Thanks
RC
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Just a country Preacher's humble opinion
Read the first chapter of my latest book here;
http://www.deliveranceofsara.com
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