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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/29/2008 3:02:55 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
I know. That lack of love always stuns me. I actually met bickle. he was at a confrence where my art was on display. he's a nice guy with a deep love for Jesus. Jesus...loving Him...is there something wrond with that?
One of the nicest people I met was a young woman who was a Mormon. She was sweet and very kind to people. She would likely tell you that she had a deep love for Jesus too.
The point of that illustration is that it's possible to be nice to others and claim to love Jesus while still believing and/or teaching false teachings.
a key question is: what type of false teachings disqualify one from heaven?
for example, pit denominations against one another and there are differances in teachings that each would say of the other is false.
what matters for entrance into heaven?
why are some that teach etc in Jesus name disqualified for heaven? what disqualifies them?
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/29/2008 3:07:54 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
You know what "stuns" me? That supposedly "loving" Christians do nothing to stop these guys and care nothing about their victims.
i've read most of this thread, all of it until the last few days. i'm still unclear as to what the followers are suffering. how are they victims?
i've had friends and family, that have long had a genuine faith, become fans, followers of various movements and they didn't stray from their faith. they had some annoying ideas, but still genuine christians.
so where and how do things become dangerous?
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/29/2008 3:13:37 PM
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JimboFletch
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
a key question is: what type of false teachings disqualify one from heaven?
Another key question is: Do you want to be where Jesus wants you to be or do you expect Him to come to where you want to be?
It's like the number of church folk I've met who ask just how far can they go and still be okay instead of being interested in how close can they get to Jesus.
Attitude along those lines reveal a lot.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/29/2008 4:34:54 PM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 2009
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
i've had friends and family, that have long had a genuine faith, become fans, followers of various movements and they didn't stray from their faith. they had some annoying ideas, but still genuine christians.
so where and how do things become dangerous?
I think that's a good general question to consider when looking at any "movement."
Here's my first thoughts on that question:
In general, this is what I've often seen in the past with people who have been seduced by false teachings (and, BTW, the first situation I was faced with was as a baby Christian 25 years ago!)
1) They don't understand about context and original meaning in scripture, so when their leadership tells them that something is biblical and quotes scripture, they believe the teaching is biblical. They tend to believe their leader has used the scripture correctly, even if it's totally out of context and original meaning.
2) They are reasoning subjectively, based on emotions/experience
3) They are emotionally attached to the movement, so questions such as I have asked here in this thread are viewed as "attacks" and even personally attacking them or their leaders. The worst extension of this is when people in the "movement" start viewing this questioning as "attacks from satan." This is where the "don't touch God's anointed" thing comes up (which is also a misuse of scripture!).
Since the person attached to whatever group involved is in a state of being unable to distinguish false teachings from solid biblical teachings, they are vulnerable to accepting even more dangerous false teachings.
Here is an example that does not directly have to do with IHOP...
A couple gets involved with WOF teachings. They become very emotionally entwined with their group and their teachings. Their very identity as Christians becomes entwined with this group's beliefs.
At some point, their child becomes sick. Now, they are conflicted. They have been taught to "speak what is not as though it was" and to not confess negativity. Of course they want to exercise faith and be seen as exercising faith. They want to be an example of faith to their son and their fellow group members. They believe their son will be supernaturally healed. Maybe someone gives a word of knowledge that he will be healed. The whole group prays believing in the healing of the child. The parents what they believe regarding God and healing, and do not seek medical help. The son dies as a result of not getting the medical treatment (yes this is an extreme situation, but these sort of things do happen).
What are some other "dangerous things" that could happen?
One more common "dangerous thing" is broken relationships. This happens often when a controlling group is involved, but can also happen even when it is not an overly controlling group. The person believes that other Christians don't measure up to the group's high standards, or are pulling down their faith through their honest questioning (negative confessions), etc. This is what happened in the situation with a friend when I was a baby Christian. She basically thew away friendships with a bunch of other devout born again followers of Jesus because she had been pulled into a WOF group. It was heartbreaking happening with a friend; imagine how it would be with a son/daughter or a parent or sibling.
There's much more I could say on this topic in general, but I need to go now.
BTW - the situation when I was a baby Christian...there was a family at that church whose child had died similarly to the hypothetical situation I used.
< Message edited by stateofgrace -- 1/29/2008 4:46:54 PM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/29/2008 4:48:43 PM
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OLEEguacamole
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most of the people in my life that have drifted toward "movements" are over 50 and pretty good at bible study concordance use etc, and pastors/teachers.
WOF people that i have seen usually pray and believe as you describe ALONG WITH medical attention.
and....none of the poeple i have seen (not saying it isn't possible) have diluted faith in Jesus.
i have had to answer the alarm from family members, etc when they say, "what are we going to do about so and so?" well....besides being goofy and annoying, what else is being harmed?
sometimes that really is the bottom line. goofy and annoying is the big side effect.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/29/2008 6:06:11 PM
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kisstheson
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: kisstheson
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
I'm not Catholic but I'm wondering if you believe there are any christians within the Roman Catholic Church?
Not that it has anything to do with this thread, but I can only speak for myself...When I was a Catholic, I was not saved.
But would you agree that there are some catholic's within the catholic church that are saved?
I don't know what you're getting at other than Bickle bases many of his teachings on Catholic mysticism, but if you want to discuss Catholicism, there are other threads for that. I will, however, quote from the seventh chapter of the Book of Matthew:
22Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles? 23Then I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!
My point is if he believes the Niceen Creed, the major points of doctrine in our Christian faith, why sweat the minor stuff? If you wanna go after the minor stuff than you might as well go after every denomination with differing worship styles, beliefs and practices, charismatics vrs nons, catholic vrs prots..its a never ending battle. Been there, done that.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/29/2008 7:02:32 PM
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SD456
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quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
quote:
The facts speak for themselves - 3000 24/7 prayer communities in 65 nations have been started since 1999. This is a GOD thing. Man could never start or keep such a worldwide prayer movement growing and continuing as it is
Scientology was founded in 1953 by L. Ron Hubbard and has an estimated 100,000 to 200,000 followers worldwide. Should we assume that it is of God because it's continued for so long? How about Mormonism? Founded in 1827, with about 4.2 million followers in the US alone!
If you don't have the discernment to understand the difference between God moving in people's hearts to bring them closer to Christ in worship and prayer and people like Scientology, than I don't think I can help you there too much. But I know you do know the difference and are just bringing up an inane comparison for argument sake.
Man COULDN'T ever keep a global 24/7 prayer movement going for this long (and the key word here is 'prayer', as opposed to people waiting for aliens to come speak to them), just as man could never have spread the gospel of Jesus throughout the world if it were not a God thing. I'm sorry if you can't recognize the truth in that statement.
I simply said that if it's God it cannot be stopped and you should be very positive that it's NOT from God if you are going to speak against it. I also believe that people praying to Jesus, worshipping jesus 24/7 and getting closer to jesus is a God thing. You have a right to not think so, but I would hesitate to denounce them if I were you unless God himself told you they are not from Him and that He did NOT direct them to pray and fast.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/29/2008 7:06:58 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
You know what "stuns" me? That supposedly "loving" Christians do nothing to stop these guys and care nothing about their victims.
i've read most of this thread, all of it until the last few days. i'm still unclear as to what the followers are suffering. how are they victims?
i've had friends and family, that have long had a genuine faith, become fans, followers of various movements and they didn't stray from their faith. they had some annoying ideas, but still genuine christians.
so where and how do things become dangerous?
 LOL, bingo! The question of the hour. I, too, have been wondering the exact same thing through this thread. I know lots of people involved with Bickle over the years, and lots involved with WOF and others involved with Joyce Meyer, etc, and ALL of them have grown deeper and deeper in their faith and are loving, humble christians that are still very strong in their faith. Where's all the people that are suppose to be sad, delusioned christians who have fallen from the faith and are going to hell.
quote:
ORIGINAL: stateofgrace
They don't understand about context and original meaning in scripture, so when their leadership tells them that something is biblical and quotes scripture, they believe the teaching is biblical. They tend to believe their leader has used the scripture correctly, even if it's totally out of context and original meaning.
And what about the multitudes of mature christians who are regular bible studiers, discern the word of God correctly, and have walked with Jesus for 30 or more years? There are just as many of them involved with God's movements across the earth you know.
quote:
They are reasoning subjectively, based on emotions/experience
Of course they must be if they disagree with you.  I believe that sensible, bible educated people are very much involved in IHOP. It's definately not about emotion any more than there faith is based solely on emotion. They KNOW Jesus and want to know him more.
quote:
They are emotionally attached to the movement, so questions such as I have asked here in this thread are viewed as "attacks" and even personally attacking them or their leaders.
Really? Is that true? So you don't believe it could simply be they are people that don't believe in wrongly judging others? They are people who have rightly judged the FRUIT of people's lives that are being spoken against, while others have skipped that part? Or that they are people who believe that God is fully capable of humbling those who need to be taken down a peg or two and taught a lesson instead of requiring that we do it for Him? .....funny how that seems to escape you and you truly believe that you are being attacked for your righteous behaviour toward those you are attempting to castigate.
quote:
the situation when I was a baby Christian...there was a family at that church whose child had died similarly to the hypothetical situation I used.
It's sad that those things happen, but we are still never to throw out the baby with the bathwater. There's are LOTS of good teaching in those very churches also and one's bad experience can easily color their outlook on all of it in a wrong way.
< Message edited by SD456 -- 1/29/2008 7:22:15 PM >
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/29/2008 7:08:00 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1263
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quote:
ORIGINAL: JimboFletch
quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
a key question is: what type of false teachings disqualify one from heaven?
Another key question is: Do you want to be where Jesus wants you to be or do you expect Him to come to where you want to be?
It's like the number of church folk I've met who ask just how far can they go and still be okay instead of being interested in how close can they get to Jesus.
Attitude along those lines reveal a lot.
And I'll guarantee you that all the people at IHOP very clearly got calls from Jesus to be right where they are. They are walking in obedience to Him.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/29/2008 7:20:12 PM
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SD456
Posts: 1263
Joined: 8/6/2007
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
most of the people in my life that have drifted toward "movements" are over 50 and pretty good at bible study concordance use etc, and pastors/teachers.
WOF people that i have seen usually pray and believe as you describe ALONG WITH medical attention.
and....none of the poeple i have seen (not saying it isn't possible) have diluted faith in Jesus.
i have had to answer the alarm from family members, etc when they say, "what are we going to do about so and so?" well....besides being goofy and annoying, what else is being harmed?
sometimes that really is the bottom line. goofy and annoying is the big side effect.
 Excellent post!
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/29/2008 8:49:27 PM
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Stephanos
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IHOP is NOT dominionist! Goodness people cant you understand that Dominists believe that the CHURCH will RULE over ALL the earth. IHOP DOES NOT TEACH THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So how in the world can you say IHOP is in that camp is beyond me. I wish people would stick to FACTS and not insinuations and assumptions. You disagree with IHOP's theologies, fine, but dont dare lie or tell false hoods when you are attacking them.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/29/2008 9:34:35 PM
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sue244
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From: Colorado
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quote:
Man COULDN'T ever keep a global 24/7 prayer movement going for this long
So what about Buddist Monistaries? They have been around for a lot longer then IHOP so does that mean they are from God as well?
You know trying to prove something using either length of time or number of people is not a strong argument since there a lot of movements that are not of God that have been around longer and have a lot of people involved.
quote:
And I'll guarantee you that all the people at IHOP very clearly got calls from Jesus to be right where they are. They are walking in obedience to Him.
And could not someone also say that those on here that are pointing out the errors of IHOP are also right where Jesus wants them to be, walking in obedience to Him by following His commands.
Jude 3
1 Tim 4
1 Tim 5
2 Tim 2
2 Tim 3
2 Tim 4
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/29/2008 10:17:14 PM
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cybrjewls
Posts: 1479
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Just a posting for the Scripture references that you mentioned:
Jude 3
1 Tim 4
1 Tim 5
2 Tim 2
2 Tim 3
2 Tim 4
quote:
ORIGINAL: sue244
And could not someone also say that those on here that are pointing out the errors of IHOP are also right where Jesus wants them to be, walking in obedience to Him by following His commands.
Jude 3
1 Tim 4
1 Tim 5
2 Tim 2
2 Tim 3
2 Tim 4
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/30/2008 3:50:33 AM
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FurGodWurLivin
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Pardon another long reply, but I have some free time and I need to catch up. My class schedule is really intense.
quote:
Lets try this again....That belief is a main tenet of Dominionism theology. How much more clear do we have to make that? lw9 has provided detailed descriptions of the beliefs of this movement. Descriptions that you have obviously chosen to ignore.
And BTW, Dominionists like Bickle have been predicting this massive transfer of wealth for 20 years now.
I had some friends get involved in this movement about 5 years ago. I heard the "transferring of wealth tripe then.
Guess what? It ain't happenin'! Why, cause it's not part of God's plan. Rather it's the Dominionists plan for lining their wallets! First off, as I said earlier... we do not believe or preach dominionism as it has been defined here. That is a simple fact, and you can either believe that fact or deny it. I can't help you make that decision. The big problem with the "it ain't happenin" argument is that God is funding the prayer movement. The majority of people at IHOP recieve quite a bit of their monthly income from missionary support. SO really your argument isn't based on reality because God IS funding the Prayer Movement.quote:
Here's a fundamental question I am now considering:
Does God actually want thousands of "intercessory missionaries" - people who are focused only on intercessory prayer? And for the rest of the church to make a priority of supporting these people?
Is that a priority for us as the body of Christ?
Is there evidence that Jesus taught that this was a priority?
Other evidence in scripture, that this was some kind of mandate for today, not something simply intended for a particular point in time in the OT? Does a historical description translate into a mandate we should follow today?
Or is it simply that God wants all of us followers in Christ to be in prayer frequently, as part of our daily lives? Luke 18:1-8, Shall God not avenge His own elect who cry out to Him day and night, thought He bears long with them? I tell you that He will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless, when the Son of Man returns, will He really find faith on the earth?
1st Thessalonians 5:16-18 "Rejoice always, pray without ceasing, in everything give thanks; for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus for you."
Psalm 134 "Behold, bless the Lord, All you servants of the Lord who stand by night in the house of the Lord! Lift up your hands in the sanctuary, and bless the Lord. The Lord who made heaven and earth bless you from Zion."
The point to be made is that prayer is good. We all believe that. Is it actually possible to pray too much? I have serious doubts about anyone actually having reached that point. St Patrick (the Ireland guy) prayed 100 times a day and preached the Trinity using a Shamrock. Monasticism is so foreign to the modern mindset... I have three passages there saying that Night and Day worship and prayer are quite Biblical. Yes, God wants all to pray... just like God wants all to read their Bible. Just like some are called to be full-time theologians, some are called to be full-time intercessors. All are called to evangelize, but not all are called to be evangelists. Make sense?
quote:
LOL!!! so faith without deeds is dead. Faith without deeds is dead. That is absolutely true. What I am saying is that our deeds are not done to make God happy, because He already is so. Our deeds are done to change our hearts and are an outgrowth of our love for Him. At least, that is the way it is supposed to be.quote:
It's as though the idea of a monk is new to some somehow. They are dedicated to worship and study and prayer in fellowship with one another. As I said, Monasticism is very foreign to the modern mindset. IHOP is much more Monastery than Cult. It is our monastic type lifestyle that gets us accused of being reclusive, secretive, or exclusive. In fact none of the above are true, but people believe that they are because Monasticism, while not new, is a foreign concept.quote:
Absolutely no arguments here that prayer is a good and a powerful thing! I think what we are distinguishing between is people praying fervently [as we should] vs. setting up an 'official' prayer movement organization. I just can't find a directive for that in the Bible. So the Tabernacle of David and Solomon's Temple were............ unbiblical? The sacrifice is your life, and the temple is not tied to a geographic location... but the idea is the same. We have set up a place for us to gather to worship and pray to God. It isn't much different than a church having services 24 hours a day. Why relegate corporate spirituality to one day a week and two hours of that day? Better yet, nothing facilitates personal growth like meditation on the Bible, prayer to God, and worship of the same. Once again, the fruit is the evidence of the ministry. The fruit is having people growing spiritually into maturity.quote:
I guess I liken this to someone deciding to build an ornate Cathedral and then expecting the congregation to support it and cough up the funds to keep the roof plated in gold. The real question is: Did God tell anyone to do that?? The difference being that we are not attempting to build an ornate cathedral. IHOP started as a room in a double-wide trailer. We have upgraded to a bigger facility because we needed the space (due to expanding staff numbers and exploding internships). The money we are raising is to meet our economic reality. It takes money to have electricity, A/C, purchase instruments, replace lightbulbs, pay property taxes, and to take care of general maintanence (supplies for the bathroom, replacing the vacuum cleaners, that kind of thing). We don't have a gold plated roof, we have a renovated shopping center in a run-down part of town. GodTV raised 90% of the money needed to facilitate the media broadcast, not IHOP. I remember being at a OneThing conference a couple years ago, and IHOP was some $60,000 short of being able to afford it. They didn't say the exact amount, but on the last night Mike got on stage and told the 12,000 people there that they were needing money to be able to pay for the conference. Mike asked people to pray about what God would have them give. That night the offering came up with some $61,000. God provided what we needed and a little extra as a down payment on the next year's conference. This is not a scheme to make millions... because if it is, we are doing a lousy job of it.quote:
God hears our prayers where we stand so there is no need to set up a special prayer organization. I can guarantee they have no better 'access' to God and are in no higher position than the humble Christian on their knees and alone in their room. To be noted, I have not disagreed that God hears the average person in their prayer closet. IHOP does not claim to have "special access" to God or "a higher position". What IHOP is, is a facilitator of night and day prayer. That is all.quote:
That passage only enforces my point. She was just one woman who prayed. She didn't market herself as a 24-hour prayer warrior, she didn't turn her prayer sessions into a movement or an organization, she didn't put herself above others, and she didn't hold conferences and recruit others to follow in her ways.
She went. She prayed. End of story. We are not "turning ourselves" into anything. Our prayer sessions are open to the public because we are here to pray. We hold conferences because people are interested in what we do and what we believe. We aren't putting ourselves above others, but we aren't debasing ourselves to appear falsely humble either. The prayer movement was not started by IHOP, but we are a part of it. As I have mentioned, there are people who were doing it before us, there will be people starting to do it after us. IHOP-KC is the only prayer room associated with IHOP-KC. Everyone else is independent of each other. We have no ties to Prayer Mountain in South Korea, we have no affiliation with IHOP-Atlanta, and on down the list. So what do we do at IHOP-KC? We go, we pray, some people think it's a good idea, end of story.
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Sorry I missed that of course I know about the Moravian that go back to John Hus, but I just saw Nun and Monks and thought that it was instersting that you use Catholic Tradition to prove anything among Protestants. Can....of.....worms................. must....open! The catholic church was the only form of Christianity for, hmm, 1200 years? 1300 years? Don't be too hasty to pitch "Catholic Tradition" out the window.
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And you want to say that it's NOT God moving in this? You can if you want, but I don't because I believe that it's very obviously God. How soon we forget, eh? It's hard to believe that people have no recollection of the "24/7" movement in the 90's. Maybe it's because it was in England and we just don't trust Christians who aren't either American or dead (I'm thinking about Karl Baarth and those kind of guys).
quote:
The IHOP discussion is about more than that. Okay? Apparently not. So far we have been to this particular spot in our argument at least three times that I can think of. Which means we are either doing figure eights, or just plain circles. At this point we have talked about (A) the application of the prophetic (B) the methodology of IHOP-KC's night and day prayer and (C) the merits of the doctrine of God being a judge of Sin. So really we have spent 25 pages arguing about three topics under the umbrella of one topic. I didn't list the dominionist argument because it just really does not hold water at all.quote:
I don't see anything to recant. Disagree if you like. Thank you, I think I shall. According to the statement you made that I objected to, you were speaking about people who are "devoid of sound doctrine". Now, either you believe the people at IHOP-KC are devoid of sound doctrine, or you believe that I am. Otherwise, you have absolutely no reason to have said what you did because of its irrelevancy. That is why I asked you to withdraw your accusation.quote:
Pyramid schemes are all voluntary, for example. Manipulation may include volunteers. The old-time "Medicine Show" comes to mind. Problem, the old "medicine shows" involved intentional and systematic lying to the victims. For example, putting bootlegged Gin in a clear bottle and calling it the "elixer of Life: the cure all for all ills". That is a hefty claim to level against an organization and a man you do not personally know. That is why I refuse to call WoF preachers or Charismania preachers "liers and charlatans." quote:
Bickle is worse. I saw him on a couple of podcasts yesterday giving his fiction about the "evil prayer movement" that will arise to oppose the "endtimes prayer movement". Come on. How can you endorse extra-Biblical fantasy like that? Had you been following Mike's full end-time series, you would see exactly how he got there from an exposition on Revelation 17 and 18. It is as simple as that. The idea is that the Antichrist is going to be raising up a movement of people worshipping himself (as 2 Thessalonians 2 would suggest), while God is raising up the church into maturity and spreading the worship and knowledge of God to the nations. So you have two worship movements being raised up at the same time as the exact antithesis of each other... sounds a lot like Jesus parable of the Wheat and the Tares, doesn't it?quote:
Not really. If one sees the "endtimes prayer movement" as an unscriptural aberration, it makes no sense to spend your life trying to fund it. For once, I cannot argue with you. If you believe that having people make prayer and worship as their full-time occupation (like the Levites in the Temple), it makes no sense at all to support it. Now, for someone like myself who sees much nobility in the calling of intercession, it makes more than sense (or cents). I will never forget what one of my pastors from back in the day said... "if someone spends two hours a week watching television, we don't say they worship television... yet that is exactly what 'Sunday Morning Christianity' does with the worship of God." quote:
I believe we already have companies of people gathering together in understanding and pursuing a course. We call our meeting places churches. Don't make the mistake of reading more into what Mike said than what is there. Mike is not dissing the church in that statement. Mike is saying that they are wanting to be a company of people that pursue God in a very intense and focused way. It is not a criticism of the church in any way, it is a call to be deeper.quote:
Wow... so I guess we'll have IHOP and company to thank for the Second Coming. Strangely enough, Jesus Himself has this to say about His return -
Luke 18:8 I tell you that He will bring about justice for them speedily. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?
- yet Bickle has a whole global prayer movement revival plan all mapped out for the end times.
When Jesus returns, you will have Him to thank for putting an end to evil. We won't be thanking the Antichrist for coming to power, but that is the method that God has instituted for the return of Christ. What you are arguing about is whether or not God desires for the church to partner with His heart and His plan through prayer, worship, and intercession. That is the issue that is lying under the surface of pretty much all of your arguments.quote:
... More stuff about how important they are. But here's a question: If Jesus has allegedly mandated a global prayer movement to call Him back and you're not involved with one of these groups, are you seen as less of a Christian or somehow rebelling against God's mandate in their eyes?? Hmmm.... not a bit. That is putting words in Mike's mouth that aren't there. Every Christian is called to pray... not every Christian is called to be a full-time intercessor. The mandate is for the intercessors to start praying the way they are supposed to be praying. Once again, the calling is to spend long hours in the place of prayer, interceding and loving Jesus. One thing that will be universal is the returning of the First Commandment to First Place in the lives of the people who are called in the name of Christ.quote:
Acts 1:11 and they [2 men in white] also said, Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus, who has been taken up from you into heaven, will come in just the same way you have watched Him go into heaven.
Matt 24:27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 30
and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
Bickle has placed his movement in some awfully self-important shoes and contradicted the Bible, to boot. once again, placing all things in their context changes the color of what those words mean. The point Mike was making is that the Day of the Lord will come as a theif in the Night to those who are not looking for His return. He is not claiming Jesus won't be returning in the clouds, he was saying that it won't be totally unexpected for the church. Before we start coming up with all the "day and hour" verses, let me explain a little more. The parable of the homeowner whose house gets robbed. "If the owner of the house knew at what time the thief was coming, he would not have let his house be robbed." Better yet, 1 Thessalonians 5:2-5 says, "For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night. For when they say "Peace and Safety!" then suddenly destruction comes upon them as pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. But you, brethren are no in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness." So class, in ending, the Day of the Lord will come as a thief upon those who are not of Christ.
Now, Mike did not create the prayer movement, as already mentioned earlier. There has been night and day prayer sporadically throughout church history. The 24/7 movement in England in the 90's, the Moravians in the 1600's, Prayer Mountain in Korea in the 80's, as well as several monastaries in the "Dark" Ages. So no, Mike is not placing "his movement" in any "self-important shoes", any more than a pastor preaching that the church will rule and reign with Christ for 1000 years in the Millenium.
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What worship movement of God would be born of darkness? Maybe he's talking about some of the stuff that we hear on the radio these days in popular culture. prophetica, don't get lost in the terminology. Mike is saying that there are two prayer movements that will be operating in the end-times. One is praying to God, is ordained by Him, and is holy. The other is commissioned by, prays to, and is born of, the Antichrist. So in answer to your question, no movement of God is born out of moral/spiritual darkness.quote:
Whether someone is telling people they'll be blessed, cursed, judged or rewarded based on the flavor of the day, the taint of manipulation is present in the predicting of results. Once again, that is a hefty charge. You need to prove that (A) the "prophetic element" is manipulation as opposed to an honest belief of having heard God and (B) that it is based on the "flavor of the day"... which would be especially hard since you have guys like Kim Clement saying that there is great blessing coming upon the church in America. The only way for both to be wrong is if God is detached from our current circumstances and will do nothing good or bad to the church in America.quote:
To know the unknowable--a tantalizing element. This is a no-lose scenario for the prophet. Any event can be said to be fulfillment of their prophecy. The lack of an event is the reward for prayer. Going down this path is the way we get to the prayer movement warily facing the future where the "evil worship movement" will oppose them. Once again, to prove this, you need to make a hefty character judgement against the heart of the person prophesying. What did Joel say in Joel 2? "Call the elders... who knows if the Lord will relent and leave a blessing behind?" Joel was quite obviously the real-deal prophet, and yet even his prophesied judgement hinged on whether or not the people would repent.quote:
We can gather from this small excerpt that the "distancing" from Bob Jones is not very far, and that posts arguing that what was said twenty years ago is not relevant are mistaken. Note that the "harvest" will be "particularly from the young". Does "function as prophets" mean "not accountable as prophets with a Scriptural measure" since they would not claim to be "prophets"? "Prophetic worship" means something more special that regular worship I take it. If it's a "beginning breakthrough of revival in our nation", they why are they "prophets to the nations"? Why not prophets on the corner--perhaps doesn't sound as impressive to prophesy that. Loftier words make a bigger impression on some, perhaps. "The nations" seems to be a buzz term among the apostolic/prophetic crowd, as in "give us the nations", "reach the nations", "to the nations". Once again, all of the arguments you just posted are either (A) taking us back to the same place we were on page four of this discussion or (B) reliant on character judgements against the cast of characters involved in this play we call "life". So really, I shouldn't dignify this with a response... But the fact is that I hate going around in circles more than about twice.quote:
It fascinates me no end that those who attempt to expose these false teachers are repeatedly called unloving, yet they are actually doing the most loving thing there is...attempting to save their brothers and sisters from being duped and lied to by a false prophet I am fascinated by your definition of "love". Apparently it involves labling people who disagree with you as "duped" "heretic" "liers" "charlatans" and the like. I won't deny that you THINK you are being loving, but as someone on the recieving end of your argument who knows what love feels like, this ain't it.quote:
At issue is the unrefutable facts that prove that Mike Bickle is a documented proponent of Dominionist theology. He is plain and simple a Kingdom Now/Latter Rain proponent As I attempted to show when you first brought this up, it is flat out untrue. I can show you (and have shown you) exactly where Mike and IHOP-KC break with these lines of Doctrine, meaning that we do not put forth these lines of Doctrine as the truth. Perhaps you missed it, but it is very clear that there is a line of demarcation between IHOP-KC and these sandboxes you are so insistent that we must be playing in.quote:
Does he believe in the basic elements of the faith, the niceen creed, Jesus died for our sin, rose from the dead will return visably to earth? This is the true doctrine.
I'm not Catholic but I'm wondering if you believe there are any christians within the Roman Catholic Church? Yes and Yes.
quote:
1) They don't understand about context and original meaning in scripture, so when their leadership tells them that something is biblical and quotes scripture, they believe the teaching is biblical. They tend to believe their leader has used the scripture correctly, even if it's totally out of context and original meaning.
2) They are reasoning subjectively, based on emotions/experience
3) They are emotionally attached to the movement, so questions such as I have asked here in this thread are viewed as "attacks" and even personally attacking them or their leaders. The worst extension of this is when people in the "movement" start viewing this questioning as "attacks from satan." This is where the "don't touch God's anointed" thing comes up (which is also a misuse of scripture!). The thing I would casually point out is that all three of your reasons are subjective in and of themselves. For example, I have used quite a bit of scripture to defend my point and pointed out contextual errors in the arguments raised against my doctrines... and for some reason people still think it's unbiblical. Everything we read, hear, and see is interpreted in the mind subjectively. Your understanding determines what information your brain is willing to consider. For example, when someone is a creationist, the idea of Evolution just makes no sense at all... however, the Evolutionist has the exact same objection to creationism. Based on the understanding that there is or is not God, one approach to origins makes total and complete sense while the other is just fanciful gobbeldygook. If you are not emotionally attached to what you believe, you don't actually believe it. The argument should be raised, if I am obviously wrong because I believe XYZ with everything in me and have reasons for it, isn't it possible that the person arguing with me is wrong for believe ABC with everything in them and have reasons for it? That is the ain problem with doctrinal debates as a whole. We come to them with an understanding that we are believing the single, absolute truth, and will go to war because we believe that we believe the truth. On the one hand, good for us for standing up for the truth, on the other hand... consider that you might not be standing on rock solid truth for just a second... you are fighting tooth and nail over error. In which case we are both guilty of what we accuse the other side of.quote:
And could not someone also say that those on here that are pointing out the errors of IHOP are also right where Jesus wants them to be, walking in obedience to Him by following His commands. and this is where the BIG problem lies. We are all claiming we heard something from God that is total opposition to each other. One is dead wrong and the other might be right. The problem is that since we are using the same argument to prove two different points, we need to STOP ARGUING ABOUT THEM BECAUSE WE WON'T RESOLVE THEM. An arugment with no possible resolution is a waste of time... nothing more. Since you are dealing in hypotheticals, anything is possible, but I won't argue with a hypothetical situation because it isn't reality.
Adam
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I am hyena, Jesus is my Mufasa...
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/30/2008 8:55:47 AM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 2009
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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Adam, I appreciate your time may be limited, and there's much you want to respond to, but I think it would be more readable for everyone if you would consider keeping your individual posts short and more focused on one or two aspects of the discussion. Then you could move on to another aspect in your next post.
From what I'm seeing, the biblical support that those defending IHOP and similar movements are using is
1) whatever verse or passage (usually NT) that teaches about prayer itself
and
2) the OT examples of the Tabernacle of David, Solomon's Temple, the Levites
Now, the second is way complex for me to get into without further study.
I would like to briefly address the first, in the context of your citing Luke 18:1-8. Did you read the whole passage before citing it? When I go to that passage and simply read it, in context, what I see is Jesus teaching about and individual having faith and persistence in their prayer life. It's speaking of an individual's prayer life, about our daily Christian walk. Why is this passage the sort of thing that continually gets cited in specific support of the 24/7 IHOP-style "prayer movement."? This passage has a much more general message, and it's in the individual not the corporate focus.
quote:
1) They don't understand about context and original meaning in scripture, so when their leadership tells them that something is biblical and quotes scripture, they believe the teaching is biblical. They tend to believe their leader has used the scripture correctly, even if it's totally out of context and original meaning.
2) They are reasoning subjectively, based on emotions/experience
3) They are emotionally attached to the movement, so questions such as I have asked here in this thread are viewed as "attacks" and even personally attacking them or their leaders. The worst extension of this is when people in the "movement" start viewing this questioning as "attacks from satan." This is where the "don't touch God's anointed" thing comes up (which is also a misuse of scripture!).
quote:
The thing I would casually point out is that all three of your reasons are subjective in and of themselves. For example, I have used quite a bit of scripture to defend my point and pointed out contextual errors in the arguments raised against my doctrines... and for some reason people still think it's unbiblical.
If I had taken on any of your scriptural points (and I'm not sure that I have prior to this post), I would have gone straight to scripture and looked at the context. Most of the time people have been stretching beyond the original context to apply that scripture in specific support of IHOP type organizations. Since you have basically agreed upon the importance of taking scripture in context, why would you consider that point "subjective" on my part? Remember that I was referring to what I had seen in the past regarding people seduced by false teachings.
As far as item 2, it's often pretty easy to recognize when someone is basing their evaluation of an experience and organization based on their feelings. It may be subjective whether their feelings are accurate, right or wrong, or whatever...but it's their own words that reveal their feelings being used as a measurement for their evaluation of a situation.
I'll get to item 3 later, I guess. Got to go.
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America Needs Revival. Will you commit to pray for it?
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/30/2008 11:57:04 AM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1070
Status: offline
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this whole, "the organized 24/7 prayer is not in the bible so why should it be an organized methodical plan now....argument...seems VERY silly to me.
sunday morning and evening church services with every wednesday night service too, is not in the bible. it's just a way of organizing and purposing to be together for church. ETC. lots of things about the way we do church, not in the bible.. therefore, the argument has to be, it's in the bible NOT to do what you're doing.
are they violating spiritual principles by organizing prayer meetings?
that is the strangest part of the opposition for this. objection to organized prayer.
my grandparents were raised in church, my parents, aunts and uncles....mix up assembly of God, baptist, presbyterian, and some serious false teaching issues arise. WITH PASSION. questioning one's faith on the other side of the fences. whole churches kicking out a person for not believing a certain part of the scripture the same as the other.
AG people liking WOF stuff etc etc etc. all of the people, still Jesus followers. still bringing in new believers etc. still sending out missionaries feeding the poor, serving in pregnancy crisis ministies...
i know of a church in another county that visits supports bickle. as a church. might buy a house in biclckles neighborhood to add to the housing. it's a maniline denomination. they still seem like the same christians to me. even though i'm not on their bandwagon.
divide an conquer still works. too bad we can't compliment one another for our opposite personalities instead of throwing things.
rarely do i see a discussion about doctrine only, without the accusation of being one of those that do in Jesus name and miss heaven anyway. SAD.
it's truly an old argument, we see scripture differently so we don't know if you actually know God.
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there's life in a pit.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/30/2008 12:31:44 PM
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stateofgrace
Posts: 2009
Joined: 4/12/2005
Status: offline
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quote:
ORIGINAL: mrsdash
are they violating spiritual principles by organizing prayer meetings?
I think maybe there is a misunderstanding here. Of course organized prayer meetings do not in and of themselves violate spiritual principles.
I believe that there is an assertion that this "24/7 global prayer movment" is something set apart as special or unusually significant in God's eyes. When the leader of IHOP says that Jesus is coming back as a response to their movement, he's claiming something special about them.
quote:
rarely do i see a discussion about doctrine only, without the accusation of being one of those that do in Jesus name and miss heaven anyway. SAD.
it's truly an old argument, we see scripture differently so we don't know if you actually know God.
I hope that you are not referring to me personally, since I haven't made that accusation.
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America Needs Revival. Will you commit to pray for it?
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/30/2008 12:41:57 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1070
Status: offline
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i was not being personal at all. was describing the overall nature of discussion, this and discussions like this.
if a group of people think they're special, that needs tweaking. but it's easy to say, "that little part of their view is off and this is why...."
in general, the baby is thrown out with the bathwater in this type of discussion/critique.
< Message edited by mrsdash -- 1/30/2008 3:09:09 PM >
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there's life in a pit.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 1/30/2008 1:13:48 PM
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lw9
Posts: 1131
Joined: 7/22/2005
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hello mrsdash:
quote:
are they violating spiritual principles by organizing prayer meetings?
We're not talking about simple prayer meetings and get togethers. Read through the transcripts in post #570 on page 23 carefully. Listen to the audio or video for yourself. We're talking about a leader who has organized a movement which he hopes will go global and is claiming this movement will usher in the Second Coming. He's also claiming a worldwide transfer of wealth in order to spread his movement. Mike Bickle has the end times all mapped out and strategized according to an agenda, and the question at stake is whose agenda is he following.
Yes, he claims this is 'God's mandate', but I have yet to see any real evidence for that. Where did he get this information from?? Certainly not from the Bible, so was it a vision? A feeling? A hunch? His imagination? If this proposed massively global end times plan [complete with a counterpart 'evil worship movement'] didn't come from God, then where did it come from and where is it going?
We're also talking about a leader who has openly tossed aside the Biblical standards regarding prophecy and prophets, is raising up false prophets, and contradicts the Bible's own description of Christs' Second Coming.
With those things in mind, there are hundreds of young people being drawn into this group and taking Bickle and Company's word for it. Yes, I would say that's a very dangerous thing.
< Message edited by lw9 -- 1/30/2008 1:31:56 PM >
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Aperture Science. We do what we must because we can.
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