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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 2/12/2008 5:00:31 PM
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OLEEguacamole
Posts: 1100
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likely, the above mentioned paragraph would be distasteful, disagreeable, or even just silly to some. but that is nothing new. the church as a whole has a lot of variables, and generally speaking the other side usually has big opinions.
so let's look at the majors...
does bickle believe and teach a sound salvation doctrine?
do any of his teachings demote Jesus in some way?
is there some kind of tangible harm coming to those that follow his teaching/way of doing things?
i haven't really seen any doctrinal emergency material presented here against bickle.
stuff people can disagree on? sure.
_____________________________
there's life in a pit.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 6/10/2008 8:55:23 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6273
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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Please forgive me if this has been covered..
But how do those that attend IHOP resolve the documented fact of the false prophets/false prophecies spoken by those in leadership at IHOP?
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 6/11/2008 7:28:21 AM
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csl7037
Posts: 1775
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I have to thank everyone for all the info. I want to go back and do a lot more reading. I've got several friends DEEP into this ministry and these "circles". I got dragged into some of this a while ago and was just nonplussed. It's all enough to make a Baptist out of this old WOF'er. Really, that's where I am. There was once a time where the worst thing I could imagine would be to "rot away" in a boring old Baptist church and miss what the Holy Spirit was doing. Now, though, it seems the true danger is in getting wrapped up in something that goes way over the edge and that nice little "boring" Baptist church seems like the safest place in town. I long for something substantial and genuine now. I used to think I wanted to err on the side of the Spirit; these movements are different now, though. There's definitely been a shift. Does anyone else see this? We've blurred the lines of mysticism and gotten way off into much more dangerous territory. I no longer think it has to be flashy and exciting to be of God.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 6/11/2008 7:57:23 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6273
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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I wonder if my question will ever be answered...
_____________________________
Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 6/11/2008 3:50:00 PM
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wintery
Posts: 1885
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From: nw alabama
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quote:
ORIGINAL: csl7037
Now, though, it seems the true danger is in getting wrapped up in something that goes way over the edge and that nice little "boring" Baptist church seems like the safest place in town. I long for something substantial and genuine now. I used to think I wanted to err on the side of the Spirit; these movements are different now, though. There's definitely been a shift. Does anyone else see this? We've blurred the lines of mysticism and gotten way off into much more dangerous territory. I no longer think it has to be flashy and exciting to be of God.
Yes. Bickle, while bearing some responsibility for helping to "legitimize" or gain acceptability for Paul Cain and Bob Jones now stands only slightly askance from them and appears to some as being a buoy in the mystic ocean.
Yes the lines are being drawn and we have to decide what we will follow.
Dear Mike Bickle,
Aha!
Bob Jones says angel Emma started it all.
Love,
=============wintery.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 6/15/2008 9:12:42 PM
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earthless
Posts: 6273
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From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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I guess it won't ever be....
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 6/25/2008 10:43:05 AM
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tsnody2001
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I have had suspicions about IHOP since I learned about it through a close friend in around '02 or so. My close friend, who has been a huge influence on my spiritual life, and was at my baptism, is still heavily involved in IHOP, knows about the bad imformation of the past, but will not be moved by it. He is very dedicated to IHOP and Mike Bickle, and will not listen to any criticism directed towards them at all. I finally cornered him about the subject through e-mail, and explained that I am nonrelenting about this because of my love for him as brother in Christ and close friend. He has agreed to meet with me face to face in three days to discuss the criticisms openly. I could use some help gathering reliable and verifiable information on this ministry. I don't really have much time to go through all the past threads, but could any help me out? I don't want him to feel like I'm attacking him, or the ministry necessarily, but to honestly examine the roots and fruits of this ministry.
_____________________________
"Saving faith shuts my mouth and excludes boasting, but it leads me to boast in Christ.... Saving faith is not dependant upon my obedience, but obedience is the hallmark of the man or woman filled with the Spirit." -- Sinclair Ferguson --
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 6/25/2008 11:15:19 AM
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stateofgrace
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Would your friend be open to a discussion about what determines whether a prophet is of God or a false prophet? There have been enough false prophecies to make that subject pretty persuasive, IMO. Also, considering whether the leaders are showing good judgment by their associations and endorsements of others in the "Prophetic movement" - for example, Lou Engle going to Lakeland and endorsing Todd Bentley. Regarding the historical association with someone like Paul Cain or Bob Jones, I would just make sure there's nothing on the IHOP site that now repudiates the association - if there has not been repudiation, than I think it's fair game.
_____________________________
America Needs Revival. Will you commit to pray for it?
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 9/18/2008 2:10:40 PM
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Soxfan
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Mike Bickle and International House of Prayer
...Bickle describes his doctrine that Christians must adopt a certain version of prayer before Christ can return:
Right now the prayer movement is growing fast….really fast! But when I say it's growing fast instead of one percent of the Body of Christ taking hold of it, maybe 10 percent. It's….you know it's like 10 times bigger than it was a generation ago, but beloved as fast as the prayer movement is growing, where people are getting hold of it, still for 90 percent of the Body of Christ it's not even on their mind. Jesus is not coming until the Body of Christ globally is crying out "Come Lord Jesus, Come Lord Jesus, Come Lord Jesus" and they don't just say "come and forgive me" they are crying out in the understanding of who they are as the one that is cherished by Jesus in the bridal identity.
Note the elitism. Here, Bickle obviously refers to people who have adopted his movement, and by implication has rendered useless the practice of praying in the manner the Bible teaches—with regard to God executing His plans for the earth
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"This would be the first step in apostasy; men first forget the true, and then adore the false.".......C.H. Spurgeon
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 9/18/2008 2:22:08 PM
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Stephanos
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To be fair, I have to agree with Bickle (my word is the world ending?) on the overall theme of what he said. That is that most Christians, (esspecially American Christians) DONT pray right at all. Most Christians have a selfish, me-centered prayer life. God what are you doing for ME! God give ME this, or that! Lord I dont like what is going on! God I want! And frankly this is pathetic. Look at the prayers in the bible, look at the Prayers of Paul, of Jesus, of dozens of other godly men (and a few women, Hannah is a good one) and how they prayed, and it is a stark contrast to what we have today. The truth is that while prayer is personal, most of us do not pray "right". That is to say with right motives, and a right heart.
In what Bickle is saying, that we need a revival in prayer because we are doing it wrong, I fully agree 110%. I may even agree that such a resurgence and strenghtening of the true believers before the return of Christ is needed. Because lets face it, if the tribulation happened now, MOST (american's) who called themselves Christian, would stumble and fall in the face of trials, and reject God because their perfect little world was shattered. Case in point ask a believer from China, or the Middle East, people who are persecuted and killed for what they believe, who have little if not nothing in the line of food, clothes, ect. Their prayers are much much diffrent than most americnas. They actually THANK God for what they have. THey dont start trying to demand God give them this, or complain that they are not doing so well. I may not agree that the revival of prayer itself will lead to the return of Christ, but Christianity, and this country in specific, NEEDS an awakening to the truth.
I truly believe that if IHOP were to get rid of Bickle and the prophetic nonsence that they support, if they JUST focused on prayer, and make it a multi-denominational prayer movement, where members of every Christian denomination gathered to pray for the country, eachother, ect. Then it would be something incredible, something truly God lead that this country needs.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 9/18/2008 5:08:35 PM
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Kat_D
Posts: 3130
Joined: 9/2/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
To be fair, I have to agree with Bickle (my word is the world ending?) on the overall theme of what he said. That is that most Christians, (esspecially American Christians) DONT pray right at all. Most Christians have a selfish, me-centered prayer life. God what are you doing for ME! God give ME this, or that! Lord I dont like what is going on! God I want! And frankly this is pathetic. Look at the prayers in the bible, look at the Prayers of Paul, of Jesus, of dozens of other godly men (and a few women, Hannah is a good one) and how they prayed, and it is a stark contrast to what we have today. The truth is that while prayer is personal, most of us do not pray "right". That is to say with right motives, and a right heart.
I believe the Holy Spirit has that covered....
26 "Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."
-Romans 8
No offense, MB, but I have a Holy Spirit to direct and guide me in my prayer life, and to intercede for me when I pray amiss....and it ain't you!!! Not to mention that I would never seek direction (in any aspect of my Christian walk) from a false prophet!
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~Kat
"...And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes...no more death, sorrow, nor crying."
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 9/18/2008 7:41:29 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1098
Joined: 4/12/2005
From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Kat_D
quote:
ORIGINAL: Stephanos
To be fair, I have to agree with Bickle (my word is the world ending?) on the overall theme of what he said. That is that most Christians, (esspecially American Christians) DONT pray right at all. Most Christians have a selfish, me-centered prayer life. God what are you doing for ME! God give ME this, or that! Lord I dont like what is going on! God I want! And frankly this is pathetic. Look at the prayers in the bible, look at the Prayers of Paul, of Jesus, of dozens of other godly men (and a few women, Hannah is a good one) and how they prayed, and it is a stark contrast to what we have today. The truth is that while prayer is personal, most of us do not pray "right". That is to say with right motives, and a right heart.
I believe the Holy Spirit has that covered....
26 "Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered."
-Romans 8
No offense, MB, but I have a Holy Spirit to direct and guide me in my prayer life, and to intercede for me when I pray amiss....and it ain't you!!! Not to mention that I would never seek direction (in any aspect of my Christian walk) from a false prophet!
How do you explain then that most Christians, (especially here in America) DONT know how to pray correctly. I am sorry but "Dear God, please give me a job! Amen" Is NOT a biblical or godly prayer. The "me" attitude of most prayers is not helping further the will and kingdom of God. Bickle has alot of problems, but his rational and reasons for the need for a "prayer revival" are spot on. And FYI, this is something that is on the hearts of several godly men here at my Seminary (which BTW is here in KCMO just like IHOP). The prayer life, and the prayers period of most Christians are very poor. We, as the body of Christ, NEED to fix that if we are going to do ANY good here in the name of God our father.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 9/19/2008 10:43:58 AM
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earthless
Posts: 6273
Joined: 4/11/2005
From: where pigeons are wearing sweaters....
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Ironically, most of the American problems you bring up are due to Word of Faith type circles and lack luster preaching from pulpits.
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Probing Today's Religious Movements | Promoting Doctrinal Discernment & Critical Thinking | Providing Reasons for Christian Faith & Ethics
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 9/19/2008 1:09:13 PM
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Stephanos
Posts: 1098
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From: Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in KC MO
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quote:
ORIGINAL: earthless
Ironically, most of the American problems you bring up are due to Word of Faith type circles and lack luster preaching from pulpits.
No disagreement there. But remember, Bickle are not as WOF as the rest of them. Problematic prophecy? You bet! But when it gets down to brass tacks, IHOP people are more likely to pray "God there are problems in the world help us fix it" where as most WOF'ers would go "I claim it fixed in Jesus' name!" IHOP'ers may not have it completely right in the method of fixing/"revival of prayer", but atleast they are able to see that there is a problem, which is again, ALOT more than we can say about the WOF crowd.
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RE: I need info on IHOP with Mike Bickle! Please! - 9/19/2008 10:47:43 PM
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stimulus
Posts: 183
Joined: 6/4/2005
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quote:
ORIGINAL: Soxfan (quoting Bickle)
Jesus is not coming until the Body of Christ globally is crying out "Come Lord Jesus, Come Lord Jesus, Come Lord Jesus" and they don't just say "come and forgive me" they are crying out in the understanding of who they are as the one that is cherished by Jesus in the bridal identity.
In terms of how we are to pray, I think Jesus covered both "come and forgive me" and "let your kingdom come, your will be done" in the Lord's prayer. He even covers "give us our daily bread".
I agree with Stephanos that many of our prayers are self-centered and thus ineffective. We need to take seriously how Jesus taught us to pray. And while I agree with Kat that the Spirit helps us pray despite our weaknesses, that isn't an excuse to just pray carelessly and not grow. (I don't think Kat meant a careless attitude to prayer is acceptable, but I wanted to clarify.)
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